{"id":"court_ctb_2118_0","court":"CTB","case_no":"22-50073","doc_number":2118,"sub_number":0,"doc_type":"ORDER","filed_date":"2023-08-24","title":"UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT BRIDGEPORT DIVISION In Re \\* Case No. 22-50073 (JAM) \\* HO WAN KW","summary_zh":"临时限制令与初步禁令证据听证会庭审笔录 —— Ho Wan Kwok 破产案（郭文贵 / Guo Wengui / Miles Guo），CTB 22-50073 ECF #2118（2023-08-24立案）。该 196 页文件记录了 2023 年 8 月 14 日 Julie A. Manning 法官主持的证据听证会，审理破产受托人 Luc A. Despins 诉 Taurus Fund, LLC 等附属诉讼（Adv. Proc. No. 23-05017）中的临时限制令与初步禁令申请。","summary_en":"Evidentiary Hearing Transcript (Preliminary Injunction) — In re Ho Wan Kwok (Miles Guo / Guo Wengui / 郭文贵), CTB No. 22-50073, ECF No. 2118 (filed Aug. 24, 2023). This 196-page transcript covers the August 14, 2023 evidentiary hearing before Judge Julie A. Manning on Chapter 11 Trustee Luc A. Despins's motion for a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction against Taurus Fund, LLC et al. (Adv. Proc. No. 23-05017).","body_en":"UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT DISTRICT OF CONNECTICUT BRIDGEPORT DIVISION In Re \\* Case No. 22-50073 (JAM) \\* HO WAN KWOK and GENEVER \\* HOLDINGS CORPORATION, \\* \\* Debtor. \\* LUC A. DESPINS, \\* Adv. Proc. No. 23-05017 \\* \\* Bridgeport, Connecticut Plaintiff, \\* August 14, 2023 \\* v. \\* \\* TAURUS FUND, LLC, et al., \\* \\* Defendants. \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* \\* TRANSCRIPT OF EX PARTE MOTION FOR TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER AND PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION BEFORE THE HONORABLE JULIE A. MANNING UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY JUDGE APPEARANCES: For the Plaintiff: NICHOLAS A. BASSETT, ESQ. AVRAM E. LUFT, ESQ. Paul Hastings, LLP 200 Park Avenue New York, NY 10166 DOUGLAS S. SKALKA, ESQ. DENNIS M. CARNELLI, ESQ. Neubert Pepe & Monteith, P.C. 195 Church Street New Haven, CT 06510 Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording, transcript produced by transcription service. **Fiore Reporting and Transcription Service, Inc. 4 Research Drive, Suite 402 Shelton, Connecticut 06484 (203)929-9992**\n\nAPPEARANCES: (Cont'd.) Chapter 11 Trustee: LUC A. DESPINS, ESQ.\n\nPaul Hastings, LLP 200 Park Avenue New York, NY 10166 For the Defendants: MICHAEL T. CONWAY, ESQ. Lazare Potter Giacovas & Moyle, LLP 747 Third Avenue New York, NY 10017\n\n2\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 3 of 196\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 3 (Proceedings commenced at 11:28 a.m.) THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Case No. 23-5017, Luc Despins versus Taurus Fund, LLC, et al. THE COURT: Good morning. If we could have appearances for the record, please. MR. DESPINS: Good morning, Your Honor. Luc Despins, Chapter 11 Trustee. MR. BASSETT: Good morning, Your Honor. Nick Bassett, from Paul Hastings, on behalf of the Chapter 11 Trustee. THE COURT: Good morning. MR. LUFT: Good morning, Your Honor. Avi Luft, of Paul Hastings, on behalf of the Chapter 11 Trustee. THE COURT: Good morning. MR. SKALKA: Good morning, Your Honor. Douglas Skalka, of Neubert, Pepe and Monteith, also on behalf of the Chapter 11 Trustee. And with me is my partner, Dennis Carnelli, who filed an appearance this weekend. MR. CARNELLI: Good morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: Good morning. MR. CONWAY: Good morning, Your Honor. Michael Conway, Lazare Potter Giacovas & (indiscernible). I've just been retained by Taurus Fund, LLC, and Taurus Management, LLC. And I understand this was set as an uncontested hearing, but we are here.\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 4 of 196\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 4 THE COURT: I think it was set as an uncontested hearing, Counsel, just because no one had filed an appearance. But it's still an evidentiary hearing obviously. It's a preliminary injunction, so. Did you have an opportunity to file a notice of appearance this morning? MR. CONWAY: I did not, Your Honor. I realized when I tried that this morning that I haven't filed since they changed over to the ECF system in this court. And so I made a request that they link my two accounts and they hadn't done it by the time I had left the house. THE COURT: Okay. And are you admitted in the district court for the District of Connecticut? MR. CONWAY: I am. THE COURT: Okay. All right. MR. CONWAY: I've been practicing in this court since Judge Shipp was here. THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I'm sorry. THE COURT: Go right ahead. THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I'm sorry. Your Honor, I just didn't get who attorney Skalka said was with him. MR. SKALKA: I'm sorry. THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I'm sorry. MR. SKALKA: Attorney Carnelli, Dennis Carnelli.\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 5 of 196\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
5 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:
Okay.
Thank you. |\n| 2 | MR. CONWAY:
Your Honor, if I may? |\n| 3 | I will say I reached out to counsel on Friday, |\n| 4 | night when I realized I was going to be retained, and asked |\n| 5 | that we reach out to you and try and push this out so I |\n| 6 | could actually come to an understanding of what the case was |\n| 7 | about.
For obvious reasons, they were not interested in |\n| 8 | doing that.
And I will just say that I just now got the |\n| 9 | exhibits, so. |\n| 10 | THE COURT:
Okay.
So Taurus Fund is an LLC, so |\n| 11 | who retained you at Taurus Fund?
Who had the authority to |\n| 12 | retain you? |\n| 13 | MR. CONWAY:
Taurus Fund, LLC is a special purpose |\n| 14 | vehicle of Taurus Fund S.A., and the director of Taurus Fund |\n| 15 | S.A. retained me. |\n| 16 | THE COURT:
And who is that? |\n| 17 | MR. CONWAY:
It's a Mr. David Fallon. |\n| 18 | THE COURT:
Fallon? |\n| 19 | MR. CONWAY:
Yes.
Spelled the way it sounds. |\n| 20 | THE COURT:
F-A-L-L-O-N? |\n| 21 | MR. CONWAY:
Yes. |\n| 22 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. |\n| 23 | All right.
I understand that this morning there |\n| 24 | were just some -- the clerk's office had wanted to make sure |\n| 25 | that exhibits were in order.
And apparently there's -- the |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 6 of 196\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 6 flash drive has a different order of exhibits than the list of exhibits. Which is fine. We can work that out as the hearing progresses. But is there anything else, Trustee Despins, you wanted -- you want to let the Court know about before we proceed with the preliminary injunction hearing? MR. DESPINS: No, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. I also before -- in the last, I don't know what time it was actually, well, I guess I do, it was 9:55 a.m., received a letter which was docketed in this adversary proceeding by Attorney Henzy. Did you all see that? MR. DESPINS: We did, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Okay. All right. So then please proceed. MR. BASSETT: Your Honor, may I use the podium? THE COURT: Yes, please. MR. BASSETT: Again, Your Honor, good morning. For the record, Nick Bassett from Paul Hastings on behalf of the Chapter 11 Trustee. What I'd like to do, Your Honor, is start by just kind of giving the Court an overview of how we would like to proceed with our evidence today. I anticipate that we will have one witness, the Chapter 11 Trustee, subject to, you know, the need to\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 7 of 196\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 7 potentially call other witnesses depending upon how the hearing proceeds, but I anticipate just the Chapter 11 Trustee. As the Court I think is aware, the Trustee submitted an affidavit in support of the motion for a TRO and preliminary injunction that is on the docket. I'm happy to do it when the Trustee takes the stand, but what we would propose to do is, rather than have him repeat what has already been submitted in a written form in his affidavit, have him adopt that as part of his direct testimony on the stand. And then I have some additional, supplemental, direct testimony that I would like to elicit from the Trustee. At that point obviously we would make him subject to or available for any cross-examination. After that, and I think during the Trustee's examination, we would deal with several of the exhibits in terms of presenting them to the Court and asking for their admission. After that, I anticipate there will be some additional exhibits left on the exhibit list that I don't think I need a witness on the witness stand to introduce. And then I would, as we have in the past, you know, publish those one by one or however the Court would like me to do it, explain the relevance, deal with any\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 8 of 196\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 8 admissibility issues, et cetera. And then after that I anticipate we would be finished. And then my colleague, Mr. Luft, would be prepared to do a relatively brief closing. THE COURT: That's fine. Thank you. MR. BASSETT: Thank you, Your Honor. So with that, the Trustee would like to call the Trustee himself. (The trustee is sworn.) THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: State your name and address for the record, please. THE WITNESS: Luc Despins, business address 200 Park Avenue, New York, New York. THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. LUC DESPINS, Trustee's Witness DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BASSETT: Q Good morning, Mr. Despins. A Good morning. MR. BASSETT: Your Honor, may I approach the witness to hand him a binder that contains a copy of the affidavit that he filed in this case, which I believe is at ECF 5. THE COURT: Certainly. And counsel for Taurus Fund has all the documents\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 9 of 196\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 9 as well? MR. BASSETT: Sure, Your Honor. MR. CONWAY: Thank you. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Mr. Despins, do you recognize this document as the affidavit you filed in this adversary proceeding and that you signed, dated July 11th, 2023? A Yes, I do. Q And if you go to the past page of that document, is that your electronic signature that prepares there? A It is. Q That appears there? I'm sorry. A It is. Q And, Mr. Despins, is everything that you said in this affidavit true and accurate to the best of your knowledge? A It is. Q Is there anything, sitting here today, that you would like to change in that affidavit? A No. MR. BASSETT: So, Your Honor, with that, and in the name of efficiency, I would ask that the affidavit be admitted as a portion of the Trustee's direct testimony for today's hearing. THE COURT: Counsel? MR. CONWAY: No objection.\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 10 THE COURT: Thank you. With no objection with regard to that offer of proof, so that we can proceed accordingly, Attorney Bassett. MR. BASSETT: Thank you very much, Your Honor. BY MR. BASSETT: Q So, Mr. Despins, I have a few different topics I'd like to cover with you today just to supplement a bit what you've already said in the affidavit that you filed. The first topic I'd like to cover is to ask you some questions about some of the exhibits that have been submitted to the Court. MR. BASSETT: And, Your Honor, may I approach the witness to hand him a copy of the exhibit binder, which opposing counsel also has? THE COURT: Yes, you may. MR. BASSETT: Thank you. And, Your Honor, as we go through exhibits, based on the way we have run hearings in the past, I assume that the easiest and most convenient thing for the Court to do is just to pull those up on the docket? THE COURT: Yes. MR. BASSETT: Okay. Excellent. THE COURT: Yes, please. Thank you. BY MR. BASSETT: Q So in a moment, Mr. Despins, I want to ask you some Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 10 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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11 |\n| 1 | questions about some of the exhibits on the list that are |\n| 2 | labeled as video exhibits, but before I do that, I would |\n| 3 | like you to please direct your attention to the exhibit on |\n| 4 | the list at Exhibit No. 11, if you would, please. |\n| 5 | A
I'm there. |\n| 6 | MR. BASSETT:
And, Your Honor, is it possible to |\n| 7 | have that pulled up from the docket as we go? |\n| 8 | THE COURT:
Is Exhibit 11 the Christie's |\n| 9 | International Real Estate Group listing? |\n| 10 | MR. BASSETT:
Yes, Your Honor. |\n| 11 | THE COURT:
Yes, we can pull that up. |\n| 12 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you very much. |\n| 13 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 14 | Q
So, Mr. Despins, based on your professional experience |\n| 15 | or personal experience or both, do you have an understanding |\n| 16 | of what Christie's is? |\n| 17 | A
It's a real estate broker.
In this case, it's a real |\n| 18 | estate broker. |\n| 19 | Q
Okay.
And do you know where this particular image that |\n| 20 | we're looking at was obtained? |\n| 21 | A
From their website. |\n| 22 | Q
Okay.
And this image has a picture of a home.
It's |\n| 23 | got a description below that says, among other things, |\n| 24 | quote, \"One of the world's magnificent and rare estates,\" |\n| 25 | and goes on.
It also has at the top a sold price of \\$26 |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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12 |\n| 1 | million. |\n| 2 | The address that's listed here, Mr. Despins, 675 |\n| 3 | Ramapo Valley Road, are you familiar with that address? |\n| 4 | A
Yes.
That's the mansion's address. |\n| 5 | Q
That's the address of the mansion that's the subject of |\n| 6 | the adversary proceeding before the Court? |\n| 7 | A
That's correct. |\n| 8 | Q
Thank you. |\n| 9 | MR. BASSETT:
With that, Your Honor, we would |\n| 10 | offer this into evidence.
And just to be clear and to be |\n| 11 | helpful to the Court, the purpose of introducing this |\n| 12 | particular exhibit is just so we have a picture of the |\n| 13 | mansion in the record. |\n| 14 | THE COURT:
That's fine. |\n| 15 | Any objection, Counsel? |\n| 16 | MR. CONWAY:
As long as it's limited to that |\n| 17 | purpose, we have no objection. |\n| 18 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| 19 | Then Exhibit 11, is Plaintiff's Exhibit, is |\n| 20 | admitted as a full exhibit. |\n| 21 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 22 | (Trustee's Exhibit 11 received in evidence) |\n| 23 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 24 | Q
So as I said, Mr. Despins, I'd next like to ask you |\n| 25 | some questions about certain of the exhibits that have been |\n| | |\n\n| 196
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13
identified as video exhibits.
Before I do that, I'd like you to briefly go back
and look at your affidavit, which is in front of you, which |\n|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|\n| |\n| |\n| |\n| |\n| again was at ECF 5. |\n| A
I'm there. |\n| Q
And in paragraph 4 of your affidavit, the second |\n| sentence begins with, and here you're talking about exhibits |\n| to the complaint, but you said I understand that certain of |\n| the exhibits referenced in the complaint, and you say |\n| specifically Exhibits 12, 13 and 16, which have been |\n| provided to the Court on the video flash drive, as defined |\n| in the complaint, are videos that were downloaded from the |\n| internet at the direction of Paul Hastings personnel and |\n| then supplemented with English translations provided by |\n| counsel. |\n| Do you see that? |\n| A
Correct.
In paragraph 4, yes. |\n| Q
So can you just maybe describe in a little bit more |\n| detail for the Court what you meant it was that you did in |\n| terms of directing Paul Hastings personnel to capture |\n| certain videos? |\n| A
Sure.
As Your Honor knows, in this case a lot of the |\n| evidence comes in through social media postings by the |\n| debtor or the debtor's affiliates or entities he controls, |\n| so that that's often I wouldn't say the best source, but |\n| |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 14 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|-----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
14 |\n| 1 | probably the only source of evidence available in some |\n| 2 | cases, and what I did is I directed the team to go and find |\n| 3 | and look at internet postings regarding the mansion, |\n| 4 | regarding the relationship between the debtor and the |\n| 5 | mansion, or the debtor's satellite entities and the mansion, |\n| 6 | and this is what is being referred to in here. |\n| 7 | Q
And did the team do this on their own or did they have |\n| 8 | the assistance of technology personnel? |\n| 9 | A
Yes.
So they had -- there is a vendor that we use for |\n| 10 | a discovery program.
It's called UnitedLex.
And they also |\n| 11 | provide the same service that the -- if Your Honor will |\n| 12 | recall the GuidePost people who came to testify in December |\n| 13 | regarding the preliminary injunction, you know, the |\n| 14 | gentleman who testified about how he's able to capture an |\n| 15 | image of a URL, of a website, and authenticate that, in |\n| 16 | fact, that the posting that's presented to Your Honor is the |\n| 17 | same as the -- as what's available on the internet or was |\n| 18 | available on the internet, depending on the exhibit.
So |\n| 19 | that's -- so the team used and relied on UnitedLex to |\n| 20 | achieve that as well. |\n| 21 | Q
Now again, in paragraph 4, you're talking about certain |\n| 22 | video exhibits that were submitted with the complaint.
Did |\n| 23 | you have the associates work with United -- Paul Hastings |\n| 24 | personnel work with UnitedLex to perform this same process |\n| | |\n\nFiore Reporting and Transcription Service, Inc.\n\nfor any of the exhibits that are on the Trustee's Exhibit\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 15 List that's in front of you? A Correct. Same exact process. Q Okay. And if you look at Exhibits 21 through 27 on that list, I believe each of those exhibits, if you look at the title of it, starts with the words video exhibit? A That's correct. Q This process that you just described, was that followed at your direction for each of those exhibits? A Yes, it was. Q Now, in addition to -- in addition to having personnel at your direction capture the videos in the way that you discussed, these videos also have corresponding URL links that are available online, is that your understanding? A That's correct. They're indicated below in every exhibit number. Q In the exhibit list? A Correct. Q Have you personally visited those links and viewed the videos on those links? A Yes, I have. This morning. Q So you viewed each of the videos on Exhibits 21 through 27 this morning? A That's correct. Q You also mention in your affidavit that certain of the videos attached to the complaint were accompanied by Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 15 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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16 |\n| 1 | translations performed by counsel.
What did you mean by |\n| 2 | that? |\n| 3 | A
We were fortunate in the sense that most of the videos |\n| 4 | had an English translation provided by the party posting it |\n| 5 | under the new State Federation of China or GETTR. |\n| 6 | But in one case, if I remember correctly, in one |\n| 7 | case, Exhibit 21, the video there was all in Mandarin.
And, |\n| 8 | therefore, I asked a Mandarin-speaking associate at the firm |\n| 9 | to translate -- to listen to it first so that we would know |\n| 10 | what was said, but then to -- after she downloaded verbally |\n| 11 | the content of the video, I asked her to translate certain |\n| 12 | segments of the video in English so that, you know, the |\n| 13 | Court and the parties in interest know what is being said |\n| 14 | there. |\n| 15 | And by the way, that translation was not in the |\n| 16 | documents that I clicked on this morning because that's |\n| 17 | something that's homemade essentially. |\n| 18 | Q
Right.
Right.
And then were those translations then |\n| 19 | placed on top of the video, or how did that work? |\n| 20 | A
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah. |\n| 21 | Q
So that when we watch, if you were to watch the videos |\n| 22 | that were captured, it would have a translation over certain |\n| 23 | parts of it? |\n| 24 | A
Correct. |\n| 25 | Q
Okay.
I'd like to direct your attention to Exhibit -- |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 17 the Exhibit 21 slip sheet in your binder. MR. BASSETT: And if the Court could have that displayed on the screen, we'd much appreciate it as well. Oh, sorry. I was -- in the first instance, I was asking if we could just have the actual Exhibit 21 PDF slip sheet displayed on the screen. And then after that, we'll go to the actual video clip. THE COURT: Meaning the sheet that says Exhibit 21? MR. BASSETT: Yes, Your Honor. THE COURT: So the cover sheet of the PDF essentially? MR. BASSETT: On the docket. THE COURT: Yeah. MR. CONWAY: And, Your Honor, while that's happening, not having seen any of the videos, I don't want to interrupt the presentation, but I will say that when we get to the obvious point of trying to play the videos, I'm objecting for lack of foundation and hearsay. THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. MR. BASSETT: If you could -- THE COURT: All right. There's the cover sheet, Attorney Bassett, correct? That's what you were looking for? MR. BASSETT: Yes. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 17 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 18 THE COURT: Okay. MR. BASSETT: Yes, Your Honor. And if we could go to the second page, please. BY MR. BASSETT: Q So, Mr. Despins, is this the website that you were taken to when you clicked on the link to Exhibit 21? A That's correct. Q And that square box or the rectangular box with the picture, is that the video? A It is. Q Now, as the Court is well familiar with, we have talked quite a bit about the GETTR website and GETTR accounts at past hearings in this case. What do you, Mr. Despins, understand GETTR to be? A It's a social platform like, you know, it's called X now. What is it? Q The platform formerly known as Twitter? A Exactly. Formerly known as Twitter, exactly. It's a social platform like Twitter. Q Got it. And you have become familiar with GETTR based on your experience in this case? A Correct. Q What does -- can you remind the Court, because this is subject to past testimony and findings by the Court as well, but where it says on here beneath the box that you said Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 18 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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19 |\n| 1 | represents the video where it says NFSCTV and then there's a |\n| 2 | red check next to it, what's your understanding of what that |\n| 3 | signifies? |\n| 4 | A
It means New Federal State of China TV. |\n| 5 | Q
That this is their like GETTR page? |\n| 6 | A
Correct.
With the -- when the checked red check |\n| 7 | indicates that it's the source, yes.
Verified source. |\n| 8 | Q
And what is your understanding of what the New Federal |\n| 9 | State of China is? |\n| 10 | A
It's an organization.
I don't think it has a legal |\n| 11 | status like a company or something like that, but it's an |\n| 12 | organization founded by, as the Court held, founded by the |\n| 13 | debtor, controlled by the debtor. |\n| 14 | MR. BASSETT:
Okay.
At this point, Your Honor, |\n| 15 | this is a, as you can see from the image, a 36-minute and |\n| 16 | 30-second video.
We are going to spare everyone in the |\n| 17 | courtroom the 36 minutes of watching the entire video. |\n| 18 | What we have done is created 11 separate clips, |\n| 19 | which upon viewing them, I'll ask the Trustee if they are |\n| 20 | indeed accurate portions of what he viewed when he viewed |\n| 21 | the video online. |\n| 22 | But we will play those for the Court.
I think the |\n| 23 | relevance of the video will be self-evident when we play it. |\n| 24 | And then after that, I would intend to introduce this -- |\n| 25 | these video clips into evidence along with this slip sheet. |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 20 I also am happy to respond to the arguments that counsel has indicated he plans to raise concerning admissibility. THE COURT: Counsel, go ahead and raise your arguments, please. Your objections. MR. CONWAY: So far, we have not heard anything laying a foundation of the video, how it's made, who made it. I believe the Trustee's indicated that the translation was created by somebody other than him, which is not surprising, but I don't know who that was. It sounds like it was somebody from his office, not a certified translator, so there's no foundation as to the accuracy of the translation. And obviously, whatever it is that's on this video is an out-of-court statement which would constitute hearsay. Again, I apologize, Your Honor, that I have not seen any of the videos, so otherwise I might have been able to stipulate to something, but I haven't seen them yet. MR. BASSETT: So, Your Honor, I'll respond to each of those points. I would start by I just want to make -- just clarify for the record -- so I completely understand and appreciate counsel's brand new to the case. It sounds like he was just retained. He did reach out to us on Friday as Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 20 of\n\n## Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 21 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
21 |\n| 1 | he indicated asking if we would be open to a continuance. |\n| 2 | You know, he didn't reach out to the Court after that. |\n| 3 | There's been no objection filed by his clients. |\n| 4 | They were, as the Trustee will testify and as our |\n| 5 | certificate of service will show, properly served in |\n| 6 | accordance with the Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedure. |\n| 7 | so in our view their time to respond has lapsed. |\n| 8 | Obviously I understand counsel is being heard here |\n| 9 | today, but I just want to be clear that there was no effort |\n| 10 | on the part of the Trustee to surprise anyone.
The videos, |\n| 11 | all of the videos, that we're going to be going through |\n| 12 | today I believe were exhibits to the complaint, which again |\n| 13 | we served, so I don't want there to be any confusion or lack |\n| 14 | of clarity in the record regarding the notice that the |\n| 15 | defendants have received of today's hearing. |\n| 16 | As to the specific evidentiary items, first of |\n| 17 | all, foundation.
I think what counsel said is there's been |\n| 18 | no indication who created the video. |\n| 19 | Your Honor, the Trustee just testified, there was |\n| 20 | no objection to the testimony, as to -- and, again, this is |\n| 21 | based on findings the Court has already made -- and I |\n| 22 | understand counsel was not around at this point in the case, |\n| 23 | but during the preliminary injunction hearing in the PAX |\n| 24 | litigation concerning the protests, there was extensive |\n| 25 | testimony concerning GETTR, what GETTR is, how it works. |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 22 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 22 The Trustee testified that he's familiar with it. He's visited the page. He knows what NFSCTV means. He knows that this is an account. I think based on the process that he described of how these videos were captured online and saved, coupled with the fact that the image that the Trustee said he personally visited, very clearly indicates that the owner of the account who posted the video is the NFSCTV organization. I think that is more than sufficient for purposes of today's preliminary injunction hearing to lay a foundation. Once the video is played, the contents will be self-evident as to their relevance. The second point I would make as to the translation, which we can get to when we see the video, is that the individual who did these translations at the Trustee's direction is actually in the courtroom today. If absolutely necessary, we could call her to the witness stand to testify to the accuracy of the translations on the videos and to answer any questions counsel may have. She is a native Mandarin speaker who was born in China and also speaks fluent English and is more than capable of performing these translations. So should that be necessary, which we don't think it would be, we could put her on the stand for that purpose. Lastly as to hearsay, I think first of all the\n\n# Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 23 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
23 |\n| 1 | Court would need to see the videos to understand whether or |\n| 2 | not the statements made on the videos are, in fact, hearsay |\n| 3 | statements being made for the truth of the matter asserted. |\n| 4 | Setting that aside, regardless, it is well |\n| 5 | settled, I would say ironclad, law in the Second Circuit |\n| 6 | that on a preliminary injunction the Court can consider |\n| 7 | hearsay.
This is the Mullins case from, I'll get the |\n| 8 | citation reference, Mullins v. City of New York, 626 F.3d. |\n| 9 | 47, Second Circuit 2010.
We cited to this case in past |\n| 10 | hearings. |\n| 11 | The Second Circuit concluded, given the summary |\n| 12 | and nature of a preliminary injunction hearing, given that |\n| 13 | it occurs at the outset of a litigation, the Court can |\n| 14 | consider and can admit into evidence hearsay, period. |\n| 15 | What the Court observed was that, at the |\n| 16 | preliminary injunction stage, any hearsay that is admitted |\n| 17 | into the record would go to the weight of the evidence, not |\n| 18 | to its admissibility. |\n| 19 | So I think for all those reasons, Your Honor, I do |\n| 20 | think these videos are admissible.
I think the Court, once |\n| 21 | it views them, will find them to be highly relevant.
And we |\n| 22 | would ask to proceed on that basis, Your Honor. |\n| 23 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. |\n| 24 | Anything further, Counsel? |\n| 25 | MR. CONWAY:
Just I would say, Your Honor, that I |\n| | |\n\n# Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett 24 certainly don't believe that they intentionally tried to avoid giving me exhibits. It was a matter of timing. And I would also state that the -- the issue of hearsay, if you have a lack of foundation, a failure of foundation describing how these videos are made, that fundamentally changes the issue of whether hearsay can come in. It's one thing to say we know that this person made a statement and allow that in. It's another thing to say we have no idea whether this video is legitimate, has any accuracy at all, and now we're going to let it in. So there is a connection between allowing hearsay. I don't think it's admissible, period, as counsel stated. I think they have to lay a foundation for why the hearsay testimony has some sort of legitimate foundation. THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Bassett, would you like to respond? MR. BASSETT: I would just say, Your Honor, that I think I addressed the foundation issue independent of any question of hearsay. And again, we have dealt with this extensively before in this case. And for purposes of developing the record today, I had the Trustee repeat some of the testimony that had already been given about what GETTR is, what it means when somebody posts something to a GETTR account, who NFSCTV is. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 24 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 25 I think for purposes of today's summary proceeding it is more than sufficient to lay a foundation for the video, to do so with the testimony that the Trustee has given. I think we can play the videos. To the extent counsel, you know, believes they may be doctored, he can make that argument and that could go to the weight, but I do not see any reason why the Court should not consider these videos, just as it has done in identical fashion in the past, including in particular at the PAX PI hearing that I mentioned previously. THE COURT: Okay. Anything further, Counsel? MR. CONWAY: No, Your Honor. THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. And I will note your objection for the record. MR. CONWAY: Thank you, Your Honor. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. BASSETT: With that, if I could please ask the Court, the courtroom deputy, to play clip one. And this would be -- Your Honor correctly noted that we did have some inconsistency between the filed exhibit numbers and the exhibits, the exhibit labels on the thumb drives that we provided, so Exhibit 21 on the thumb drive is actually labeled as Exhibit 9. And there are 11 short clips of Exhibit 9 that we would -- we would like to play. And I'll Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 25 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 26 start with clip one. (Exhibit 21, clip one, played) MR. BASSETT: All right. So that, that is the end of the first clip. BY MR. BASSETT: Q And before I move on to the next clip, I would just ask the Trustee was this, this clip that we just saw, was that part of the video that you said you viewed this morning when you went online by clicking the link in the exhibit? A It is. THE COURT: And I'd just note for the record that it appears that that video clip, number one, is -- was one minute and 51 seconds, Mr. Bassett, is that right? MR. BASSETT: That is correct, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. MR. BASSETT: And if I could ask the courtroom deputy to please now play clip two. (Exhibit 21, clip two, played) MR. BASSETT: And for the record, Your Honor, that video, clip two, was 53 seconds. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Trustee Despins, other than the translation that we saw at the bottom of that video, during a portion of the video, was that clip also one -- was that also part of the larger 36-minute video that you saw this morning when you clicked Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 26 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 27 on the link? A Yes, it was. MR. BASSETT: If we could have the next clip played please, clip three. (Exhibit 21, clip three, played) MR. BASSETT: And we would go on to clip four. Your Honor, when I get finished with these clips, what I would ask is for, because I don't think this has been formally done yet, I would ask for Exhibit 21, the slip sheet, as well as these video clips, to be admitted into evidence. I just wanted to note that now because I was planning to do it at the end. But if the Court would like to do it after each clip, I could do that instead. THE COURT: I think you could do it at the end is fine. MR. BASSETT: Okay. Clip four, please. (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) MR. BASSETT: That fourth clip, Your Honor, was a minute and 27 seconds. One thing I would like to note for the record is all of these clips at the top, right-hand corner have a date stamp of April 12th, 2023. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Trustee Despins, is this clip also part of the video that you viewed online this morning? Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 27 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 28 A Yes, it is. Q Again, with the exception of the translations? A Correct. MR. BASSETT: Can we play clip five, please. (Exhibit 21, clip five, played) BY MR. BASSETT: Q Trustee Despins, is that also a clip, again aside from any translations, that you saw when you viewed the video online this morning? A Yes. MR. BASSETT: Could we play clip six, please. (Exhibit 21, clip six, played) BY MR. BASSETT: Q And again, same question, Trustee Despins, also part of the video that you viewed online? A Yes. Q Thank you. MR. BASSETT: Clip seven, please. (Exhibit 21, clip seven, played) BY MR. BASSETT: Q And, Trustee Despins, was that video also a part of the broader video that you viewed online this morning? A Yes. Because I recall seeing all the art work around the premises there. Q Thank you. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 28 of\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 29 of\n\n| | | 196 | |\n|----|----------|-------------------------------------------------------------|----|\n| | | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett | 29 |\n| 1 | | MR. BASSETT:
Clip eight, please. | |\n| 2 | | (Exhibit 21, clip eight, played) | |\n| 3 | | BY MR. BASSETT: | |\n| 4 | Q | Trustee Despins, that clip eight we watched, was that | |\n| 5 | | also part of the video you watched online this morning? | |\n| 6 | A | Yes. | |\n| 7 | Q | Again, aside from the translations? | |\n| 8 | A | Correct. | |\n| 9 | | MR. BASSETT:
Clip nine, please. | |\n| 10 | | (Exhibit 21, clip nine, played) | |\n| 11 | | BY MR. BASSETT: | |\n| 12 | Q | Trustee Despins, clip number nine, which we just | |\n| 13 | | watched, was that also part of the video that you watched | |\n| 14 | | online at the link to the exhibit list? | |\n| 15 | A | Yes. | |\n| 16 | Q | Again, without the translations? | |\n| 17 | A | Correct. | |\n| 18 | | MR. BASSETT:
Clip ten, please. | |\n| 19 | | (Exhibit 21, clip ten, played) | |\n| 20 | | BY MR. BASSETT: | |\n| 21 | Q | Trustee Despins, clip ten which we just watched, again | |\n| 22 | | aside from the translation, the translations, was that also | |\n| 23 | | part of the video that you watched online at the link this | |\n| 24 | morning? | | |\n| 25 | A | That's correct. | |\n| | | | |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 30 MR. BASSETT: And finally clip eleven, please. (Exhibit 21, clip eleven, played) MR. BASSETT: Your Honor, on this particular clip, there were two things I just wanted to highlight for the Court because they will tie into the relevance of certain exhibits that we see later, and I just wanted to make sure that was flagged for the record. The first is there was a reference in the translated portion of this video to antiques that were purchased for the home. I just wanted to flag that. Again, we'll come back to that later. And then I also wanted to note that there was a reference to a place in the home where Mr. Kwok himself had done live streams in the past. We'll also come back to that later. So I just wanted to flag that for the record. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Trustee Despins, this clip eleven, is this also part of the broader video that you viewed online? A Yes, it is. Q Again, minus the translations? A Correct. MR. BASSETT: So, Your Honor, those are all of the clips that we intend to introduce as part of Exhibit 21. As I had indicated previously, at this time, I would like to move for the admission of Exhibit 21, Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 30 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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31 |\n| 1 | including the cover sheet which shows the original location |\n| 2 | of the video on GETTR, as well as each of these 11 clips. |\n| 3 | THE COURT:
Counsel? |\n| 4 | MR. CONWAY:
Yes.
First, I want to renew a couple |\n| 5 | objections.
But before I do, I'm not familiar enough with |\n| 6 | the exhibits. |\n| 7 | Did counsel say that he had prepared written |\n| 8 | transcripts that were attached someplace, because I haven't |\n| 9 | seen them and it would make a difference if they were |\n| 10 | something other than what we've seen on the screen. |\n| 11 | MR. BASSETT:
I did not say that, Your Honor.
We |\n| 12 | do not have full translations of every video. |\n| 13 | As I said, this entire video is 36 minutes long. |\n| 14 | I'm happy to ask the Trustee to describe, you know, |\n| 15 | generally what happens in the rest of the video.
I think |\n| 16 | what he'll tell you is that it is a 36-minute tour of this |\n| 17 | house. |\n| 18 | We did not think it was a good use of time or |\n| 19 | resources or necessary to have the entire transcript of the |\n| 20 | video translated.
For among other reasons, is the fact that |\n| 21 | we had understood that today's hearing was not going to be |\n| 22 | contested given the fact that defendants who had notice did |\n| 23 | not respond. |\n| 24 | We do have our native Mandarin speaking colleague |\n| 25 | in the courtroom if there are particular portions of the |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 32 clips that are played that counsel wants to have translated that weren't translated. We could do that exercise. I think that will prove for a lengthy hearing. But I don't think it's necessary to demonstrate that the portions of the video that we have played for the Court and translated are clearly relevant to the hearing before the Court today. MR. CONWAY: Counsel misunderstood me. I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I wanted to know if there were any translations being attached because all I saw was a portion of the conversation being translated. I thought maybe I missed something. Under the circumstances, I would ask that I be allowed to ask maybe three questions of the witness of voir dire on this exhibit. THE COURT: Of Mr. Despins? MR. CONWAY: Yes. THE COURT: Do you have an objection, Counsel? MR. BASSETT: I certainly don't have an objection to counsel cross-examining Trustee Despins. I don't know what relevance the questioning would have. I'm not suggesting that Trustee Despins has any personal knowledge of the content of these videos. His testimony was that he instructed Paul Hastings' personnel at his direction to take Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 32 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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33 |\n| 1 | and preserve these videos.
And the Court overruled the |\n| 2 | objection that was raised earlier with respect to that |\n| 3 | testimony. |\n| 4 | So I don't know what counsel has in mind, but |\n| 5 | again, I obviously have no problem with the witness being |\n| 6 | cross-examined. |\n| 7 | THE COURT:
Well, he doesn't want to cross-examine |\n| 8 | him right now.
He wants to voir dire him.
There's a |\n| 9 | difference, right? |\n| 10 | So what are your questions?
What do you want to |\n| 11 | ask Mr. Despins so I can understand what it is your point of |\n| 12 | inquiry would be? |\n| 13 | MR. CONWAY:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 14 | I have three questions.
Of course in this field, |\n| 15 | it always turns out to be more.
But I wanted to ask three |\n| 16 | questions. |\n| 17 | One, does he know where the gentleman got his |\n| 18 | information that he's conveying in the video?
Two, does he |\n| 19 | know where the lady got her information she's conveying in |\n| 20 | the video?
And three, why it is we didn't see a full |\n| 21 | translation? |\n| 22 | THE COURT:
I'm going to let -- I am going to let |\n| 23 | counsel ask those three questions, Attorney Bassett.
Okay? |\n| 24 | MR. BASSETT:
Sure. |\n| 25 | THE COURT:
So go ahead.
Why don't you come to |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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34 |\n| 1 | the podium for a moment and then you can ask Mr. Despins |\n| 2 | those questions, those three questions.
Okay? |\n| 3 | MR. CONWAY:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 4 | VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION |\n| 5 | BY MR. CONWAY |\n| 6 | Q
Sir, you've heard my three questions.
Let me start |\n| 7 | with the first one.
Do you know where the gentleman in this |\n| 8 | video got the information that he conveyed in the video? |\n| 9 | A
From Mr. Kwok. |\n| 10 | Q
And that's based on? |\n| 11 | A
Because he's been appointed by Mr. Kwok.
The gentleman |\n| 12 | on the left has been appointed by Mr. Kwok as his |\n| 13 | representative in charge of his satellite entities while |\n| 14 | Kwok is in jail. |\n| 15 | Q
Okay.
And the lady in this video, do you know where |\n| 16 | she got her information relating to this house? |\n| 17 | A
I know that she's a spokesperson for Mr. Kwok because |\n| 18 | I've seen her on many other videos where she comments on the |\n| 19 | case, this case, comments on the activities of the Trustee |\n| 20 | and all that.
So I know that she's -- that she's a de facto |\n| 21 | representative of Kwok, but I don't know precisely whether |\n| 22 | Kwok conveyed that information to her. |\n| 23 | Q
In other words, you didn't interview these folks about |\n| 24 | this video? |\n| 25 | A
No, I did not.
No. |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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35 |\n| 1 | Q
And the third question was about the translation.
We |\n| 2 | saw certain pieces of the video translated, but not others, |\n| 3 | why was that? |\n| 4 | A
Well, because I guess Mr. Bassett described it.
You |\n| 5 | know, to do a full-blown translation of these things would |\n| 6 | cost a fortune.
And so what I did ask our Mandarin speaker |\n| 7 | to make sure that in one sentence they don't say yes, he |\n| 8 | bought the house and in the next sentence he actually says |\n| 9 | no, he did not buy the house.
So obviously I wanted to make |\n| 10 | sure that the extracts were representative of the discussion |\n| 11 | and not some outlier.
So that I asked. |\n| 12 | But for her to do a full-blown translation of 36 |\n| 13 | minutes would cost thousands and thousands of dollars and |\n| 14 | this estate has limited funds. |\n| 15 | So as long as I can ensure -- I can be sure that |\n| 16 | the video is representative of what they said, and it's not |\n| 17 | like just sound bytes taken out of context, and that's the |\n| 18 | representation she made to me, you know, for me, that's |\n| 19 | sufficient. |\n| 20 | Because otherwise if we -- in this case, if we |\n| 21 | start translating everything that we get in Mandarin, this |\n| 22 | case would last ten years.
I mean, we're getting Mandarin |\n| 23 | documents, Mandarin emails, every day, so it would just be |\n| 24 | impossible.
That's why we take some shortcuts.
Here the |\n| 25 | shortcut is let's make sure that what we're talking about is |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 36 relevant. There are many things in there that she told me are irrelevant. For example, they describe an office, office space and all that. You know, it's interesting, but not really relevant to our issue. So what she translated was relevant to our issue of ownership, and making sure, as well, negative assurances on our part that there was nothing Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 36 of\n\n MR. CONWAY: I can speak my objection from my seat now?\n\nin there that was contrary to those clips that we played.\n\nTHE COURT: Certainly. Thank you.\n\n MR. CONWAY: Your Honor, I'm going to renew the objection on foundation grounds. It seems that these witnesses have not been interviewed. He's not aware of exactly how they came about their information.\n\n But also, as we saw just now, multiple times, and I can tell you it was in clips three, four, five, six, seven, eight and ten, there was a translation of a question or statement by one side with no translation of the response.\n\n And what we just heard from Mr. Despins is that he asked that only those things relevant to the position of the Trustee be translated. We have no idea whether there are things that were contrary to the position of the Trustee which were not translated.\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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37 |\n| 1 | So that's my foundation objection, Your Honor. |\n| 2 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| 3 | Attorney Bassett? |\n| 4 | MR. BASSETT:
So a couple of responses, Your |\n| 5 | Honor. |\n| 6 | First of all, as to the translation issue, counsel |\n| 7 | was free to bring his own translator to this hearing had he |\n| 8 | wanted to to address any issues that arose. |\n| 9 | Secondly, as I already said, if absolutely |\n| 10 | necessary, we have the person who performed these |\n| 11 | translations in the courtroom. |\n| 12 | The last thing I would say on -- and, by the way, |\n| 13 | I think also the characterization of the Trustee's testimony |\n| 14 | was not -- was not accurate insofar as counsel was |\n| 15 | suggesting that we were deliberately trying to withhold |\n| 16 | information that would have been counter to the position |\n| 17 | that we're taking in this litigation.
I think the Trustee |\n| 18 | said the opposite. |\n| 19 | THE COURT:
Well, I don't think that's what he |\n| 20 | said.
I don't think he said that you were having |\n| 21 | information that was counter.
I think what he said was, at |\n| 22 | least what I heard was, that his objection, one of his |\n| 23 | objections is because certain words spoken were translated |\n| 24 | and certain words that were spoken were not translated. |\n| 25 | Is that right, Counsel? |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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38 |\n| 1 | MR. CONWAY:
That's correct, Your Honor.
I |\n| 2 | certainly did not mean to impugn the witness's character. |\n| 3 | THE COURT:
I didn't take it as that.
But I think |\n| 4 | that was the point that was being made. |\n| 5 | And, you know, I think you may need to call the |\n| 6 | translator because there are -- there are parts of these |\n| 7 | videos that I did see some -- one of the two people, whom |\n| 8 | haven't been identified yet, speaking and then the person, |\n| 9 | the other person, says something and that doesn't seem, at |\n| 10 | least to me, to be translated. |\n| 11 | MR. BASSETT:
Sure. |\n| 12 | THE COURT:
So I just want to understand.
If |\n| 13 | we're going to use only these 11 clips, then I think they |\n| 14 | need to be translated. |\n| 15 | MR. BASSETT:
So, like I said, we have the person |\n| 16 | who performed the translations in the courtroom.
She is |\n| 17 | more than qualified to tell us what else is being said on |\n| 18 | these videos, so we can -- we can certainly do that. |\n| 19 | Before going there, I would just respond again to |\n| 20 | the foundation argument that was -- that was raised.
These |\n| 21 | individuals are not themselves being presented as witness to |\n| 22 | the Court.
The rule for admissibility of a video is not the |\n| 23 | person speaking has to be subject to cross-examination. |\n| 24 | We already established, based on precedent in the |\n| 25 | Second Circuit, that hearsay is admissible at a preliminary |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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39 |\n| 1 | injunction stage to the extent that information being |\n| 2 | conveyed is being offered for the truth of the matter |\n| 3 | asserted. |\n| 4 | The other thing I would note and remind the Court |\n| 5 | is that this court previously found at the preliminary |\n| 6 | injunction hearing that the debtor controls the New Federal |\n| 7 | State of China. |\n| 8 | The testimony today has established in unrebutted |\n| 9 | fashion that these videos were, in fact, posted on the GETTR |\n| 10 | page of the New Federal State of China.
If you look |\n| 11 | closely, you can see that the woman on the right is holding |\n| 12 | a microphone bearing the New Federal State of China logo. |\n| 13 | THE COURT:
I can't see that actually on mine, so |\n| 14 | can you -- |\n| 15 | MR. BASSETT:
I think -- I think you would be able |\n| 16 | to throughout the course of all these videos. |\n| 17 | THE COURT:
At the bottom you're saying there's a |\n| 18 | -- the box essentially says that? |\n| 19 | MR. BASSETT:
That's -- |\n| 20 | THE COURT:
Is that what you're saying? |\n| 21 | MR. BASSETT:
That is my understanding, Your |\n| 22 | Honor.
If the Court -- |\n| 23 | THE COURT:
Right above her hand? |\n| 24 | MR. BASSETT:
That's my understanding.
Obviously, |\n| 25 | the Court can make its own observations in that regard.
If |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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40 |\n| 1 | you can't see it, you can't see it. |\n| 2 | THE COURT:
Well, I think my video quality isn't |\n| 3 | as good as that video quality.
That's all.
I think if I |\n| 4 | look at it from that screen I might be able to see it |\n| 5 | better. |\n| 6 | MR. BASSETT:
So again, I don't think there is an |\n| 7 | issue of foundation.
There's no question as to the |\n| 8 | authenticity of these videos having been posted online. |\n| 9 | Just to repeat one more time, there is essentially |\n| 10 | precedent or law of the case, in this Chapter 11 case, we |\n| 11 | have admitted these types of videos in exactly the same |\n| 12 | fashion. |\n| 13 | And again, we're now at a point where we have |\n| 14 | findings by the Court that the New Federal State of China is |\n| 15 | controlled by the debtor.
I think that's more than |\n| 16 | sufficient, again given a summary nature of this hearing the |\n| 17 | fact that hearsay is admissible, to allow for these videos |\n| 18 | to come into evidence. |\n| 19 | With that, we can have our Chinese Mandarin |\n| 20 | speaking colleague take the stand.
My colleague, Attorney |\n| 21 | Luft, would handle that examination.
And I think -- I'm |\n| 22 | just trying to figure out the most efficient way to proceed. |\n| 23 | THE COURT:
Well, that's -- I am as well. |\n| 24 | MR. BASSETT:
Yeah. |\n| 25 | THE COURT:
So is this the only video that has |\n| | |\n\n| Case 22-50073
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41 | |\n| 1 | language that needs to be translated?
I think that's what | |\n| 2 | you said at the beginning. | |\n| 3 | MR. BASSETT:
So just to be totally open and clear | |\n| 4 | about the other, the other video exhibits, so the Court will | |\n| 5 | see I believe three other videos and each of these other | |\n| 6 | videos that we show only has one clip.
They're much shorter | |\n| 7 | videos, so it's not going to be nearly as many as we've had | |\n| 8 | here. | |\n| 9 | There will be three other videos that are | |\n| 10 | relatively short that are posted on the New Federal State of | |\n| 11 | China website as opposed to the GETTR page and those, when | |\n| 12 | posted, have at the bottom Chinese characters and an English | |\n| 13 | translation of everything that's on there.
We didn't add | |\n| 14 | that.
Sorry.
We didn't add that.
That's already on those. | |\n| 15 | Then there are two other videos that were posted | |\n| 16 | by -- or they were posted to the debtor's, Mr. Kwok's, GETTR | |\n| 17 | page, and those are live streams of him speaking Mandarin to | |\n| 18 | his followers.
We don't translate those at all.
When the | |\n| 19 | Court sees them, we're just offering them for the fact that | |\n| 20 | he was posting from the house.
So I don't think we have an | |\n| 21 | issue with those because we're not asking for the substance | |\n| 22 | of what he's saying to be admitted into evidence. | |\n| 23 | So I do think that the only -- unless counsel | |\n| 24 | would want to ask questions about the other videos that have | |\n| 25 | already translated, which I don't think is necessary because | |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 42 they're fully -- THE COURT: Well, I don't think the translation issue is necessary. MR. BASSETT: Right. So I do think that now would be the time. THE COURT: I do as well. My question in reviewing these is I just -- it seemed to me part of this, part of the statements that were being made were translated and not all and I just would like to understand that. MR. BASSETT: Understood, Your Honor. MR. CONWAY: Your Honor, if I may? THE COURT: Yes. MR. CONWAY: It's possible when we take a break counsel and I can try and work together to figure out a solution. And part of this, again, is that we didn't have a chance to do that before the hearing. And it's possible we can work something out. THE COURT: So are you saying you'd like to discuss it now before we bring on another -- the witness to testify about the translation? MR. CONWAY: We can do that, Your Honor. But I'm telling you that I don't want to interrupt the flow that counsel has in mind, if we want to postpone this issue until a convenient break time and try and come up with a solution. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 42 of\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 43 And I'll also point out, Your Honor, when I first reached out to counsel, I indicated that, you know, the Taurus Fund, LLC would not object to an injunction prohibiting it from transferring the asset here. THE COURT: Well, apparently it's not just the asset though. It's the asset and its contents, and what's on the grounds and things of that nature, right? MR. CONWAY: And, Your Honor, and also we would agree not to encumber. The issue that was raised is that it's not a matter of just agreeing not to transfer any of the property, whether it be real or personal, the issue was that they wanted to lock out the owners of the property. That's the only reason we're here. I'm not sure whether this is going to go to that issue or not, but we don't need to waste time on the issue of whether or not this property should be restrained, because that's an issue -- I think it already is restrained. THE COURT: It is. MR. CONWAY: I mean, not just in this court. THE COURT: But that expires tomorrow I think. MR. CONWAY: But I mean, I think the federal court Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 43 of\n\n has restrained it as well. I don't think there's any intent to try and move property real or personal is all I'm saying. THE COURT: But the problem is, and you could be\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 44 of\n\n| 196 | |\n|-----|--|\n| | |\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
44 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | right, okay, but the problem from what has been presented to |\n| 2 | the Court through papers and complaints and exhibits is that |\n| 3 | people are removing things from the -- from the house that |\n| 4 | are not Mr. Kwok, or apparently the people you represent, |\n| 5 | that there are other people that are in -- I don't know who |\n| 6 | these people are, okay.
They're not -- |\n| 7 | Neither one of these people are your client, |\n| 8 | correct? |\n| 9 | MR. CONWAY:
I don't know who they are. |\n| 10 | THE COURT:
Okay.
So there are -- there are |\n| 11 | allegations, which have not been disputed yet at this point, |\n| 12 | that people are going in and out of this mansion and taking |\n| 13 | antiques and other art work and that is valuable and that |\n| 14 | the Trustee asserts is Mr. Kwok's.
And if it is Mr. Kwok's, |\n| 15 | then it's property of the bankruptcy estate and that's -- |\n| 16 | that can't happen when there's this case pending.
That's |\n| 17 | the assertion. |\n| 18 | So I hear what you're saying.
And you're saying, |\n| 19 | okay, we'll agree to be restrained, and we'll agree that |\n| 20 | the, you know, we can be enjoined, but that's not the |\n| 21 | problem. |\n| 22 | The problem is why wouldn't your -- if your client |\n| 23 | would agree to that, then why wouldn't your client agree to |\n| 24 | have people that don't reside in the home not be allowed to |\n| 25 | have access to the home and/or remove things from the home? |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 45 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
45 |\n| 1 | MR. CONWAY:
Your Honor, the distinction between |\n| 2 | this property and a personal residence is that this property |\n| 3 | is used by a number of people for various reasons.
It was |\n| 4 | never meant to be -- even as these videos show, it was meant |\n| 5 | to be some sort of a clubhouse for the G Clubs and a place |\n| 6 | for meetings for the New Federal State of China. |\n| 7 | The idea that we can't, under the Constitution of |\n| 8 | the United States, tell people you can't go into your own |\n| 9 | home -- |\n| 10 | THE COURT:
Well, who says it's their home? |\n| 11 | Where's the evidence it's their home? |\n| 12 | MR. CONWAY:
Well, all I can say, Your Honor, is |\n| 13 | the only evidence is that it's the Taurus Fund's property. |\n| 14 | And the allegation -- |\n| 15 | THE COURT:
But you just said these people aren't |\n| 16 | the Taurus Fund people.
You've just said that, right?
I |\n| 17 | asked you that question directly are either one of those |\n| 18 | people your client and you said you don't know who those |\n| 19 | people are. |\n| 20 | MR. CONWAY:
I don't know who those people are. |\n| 21 | THE COURT:
Okay. |\n| 22 | MR. CONWAY:
And this is not a -- |\n| 23 | THE COURT:
So where's your client? |\n| 24 | MR. CONWAY:
-- this is not a two-bedroom house. |\n| 25 | THE COURT:
I understand that. |\n| | |\n\n| Case 22-50073
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46 | |\n| 1 | MR. CONWAY:
This is like the White House. | |\n| 2 | THE COURT:
I think it's -- | |\n| 3 | MR. CONWAY:
Joe Biden doesn't own the White | |\n| 4 | House. | |\n| 5 | THE COURT:
I understand that.
But the problem is | |\n| 6 | where's your client? | |\n| 7 | MR. CONWAY:
My client is a fund, Your Honor. | |\n| 8 | THE COURT:
I understand that.
But we all | |\n| 9 | understand how it works.
Your client has to have a person | |\n| 10 | to run that fund. | |\n| 11 | MR. CONWAY:
And given the time that I -- it would | |\n| 12 | normally take to prepare for this hearing and put in an | |\n| 13 | opposition, we could have witnesses here.
But given the | |\n| 14 | circumstances, I didn't have that time. | |\n| 15 | THE COURT:
But I don't understand why -- you say | |\n| 16 | -- you say in the -- on the one hand you'll agree to be | |\n| 17 | restrained, but on the other hand you're not going to stop | |\n| 18 | people who are not your client from going in and out of the | |\n| 19 | property.
And you don't have any evidence from your client | |\n| 20 | that says that other people can go in and out of that | |\n| 21 | property and remove things from that property. | |\n| 22 | Where is the -- there's nothing that I've seen | |\n| 23 | from your client, who are the defendants in this adversary | |\n| 24 | proceeding and who are restrained, from showing me that | |\n| 25 | they've allowed these people to be in here and/or remove -- | |\n| | | |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 47 You say the client owns the property. Does the client own all the art? MR. CONWAY: The client owns -- well, I don't know what art is there. I know that I've seen a list -- THE COURT: I understand. MR. CONWAY: -- of all the property they've spent money on. I've seen -- I've seen a lot -- I mean, I don't know -- THE COURT: What does your client do? What is your client's business purpose? MR. CONWAY: You mean the fund? THE COURT: Yes. MR. CONWAY: The fund's investing in -- it depends on which sub-fund you're talking about. But this sub-fund was created for the purpose of investing approximately \\$47 million that was recovered by G Clubs in an arbitration that it had with -- it's a public arbitration. I've got the award where they get this money. THE COURT: Okay. MR. CONWAY: They take the money. They put it in the fund. The fund then buys the house, uses the other money to pay for the property that's in the house. There's allegations of a piano that was moved out during the renovations. There's also an allegation in a footnote that says they know where that is, but they just Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 47 of\n\n| Case 22-50073
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48 | |\n| 1 | didn't go look to see where it was. | |\n| 2 | So you heard in the video the renovations were | |\n| 3 | going to be complete sometime after this video and that's | |\n| 4 | when people are going to start coming in and using it. | |\n| 5 | The purpose of the property was never so that the | |\n| 6 | debtor could live there as a personal residence.
So the | |\n| 7 | idea now that, you know, everything in it is his, the house | |\n| 8 | is his, there's -- well, we'll let the Trustee put on his | |\n| 9 | proof.
But I've seen evidence to the contrary. | |\n| 10 | And I can't -- you don't know me, Your Honor.
I | |\n| 11 | mean, I've worked with the Trustee for decades.
We shared | |\n| 12 | former partners together.
I give you my word that I'm not | |\n| 13 | lying to you when I say the evidence shows that this house | |\n| 14 | belongs to the people whose money was used to buy it. | |\n| 15 | The request, the ask, is to prove a negative at | |\n| 16 | this stage without time to put together the exhibit list and | |\n| 17 | the witnesses.
It's asking too much.
So if we did have the | |\n| 18 | time, we'd be happy to try and do that for you, Your Honor. | |\n| 19 | THE COURT:
But the problem would be, even if you | |\n| 20 | agreed to restraint, the continuation of the restraining | |\n| 21 | order, or preliminary injunction for that matter, it doesn't | |\n| 22 | address the issues that the Trustee has raised, which are | |\n| 23 | people going in and out of this home.
Assuming it's | |\n| 24 | accurate, okay, they're going in and out of this home and | |\n| 25 | taking valuable property.
And I don't understand why your | |\n| | | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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49 |\n| 1 | client wouldn't agree to that? |\n| 2 | MR. CONWAY:
Well, Your Honor, our client's not |\n| 3 | aware of anybody taking property so we'll let the Trustee |\n| 4 | prove that allegation. |\n| 5 | THE COURT:
Okay. |\n| 6 | MR. CONWAY:
I would say that my client will be |\n| 7 | more than happy to have an order saying nobody could do |\n| 8 | that, because frankly why would our client want the property |\n| 9 | taken out?
It makes no sense.
So, you know. |\n| 10 | But I'm trying to -- I'm trying to streamline the |\n| 11 | process, not make it more difficult.
And it's just an |\n| 12 | offer, Your Honor.
I'm trying to help. |\n| 13 | MR. BASSETT:
Your Honor, can I respond briefly? |\n| 14 | THE COURT:
Yes. |\n| 15 | MR. BASSETT:
So counsel is correct that we had |\n| 16 | that conversation.
He's also correct that we said simply |\n| 17 | having an agreement or an order by the Court that the |\n| 18 | property not be transferred or encumbered is not nearly |\n| 19 | enough in the Trustee's view to protect this asset. |\n| 20 | As the Court just noted in conversation with |\n| 21 | counsel, Taurus Fund, LLC is not a natural person.
We've |\n| 22 | not heard the name of a single person who stands behind |\n| 23 | Taurus Fund, LLC.
The person who is listed as one of the |\n| 24 | co-members, as the evidence will show momentarily, is a man |\n| 25 | by the name of Scott Barnett, who the evidence will show is |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 50 of\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 50 the driver and security guard for the debtor. There has been no indication from counsel during his remarks today that Mr. Barnett lives in this house. He's suggesting that this was simply set up as some sort of commercial base. There's going to be documents in the record showing that this is a residential building and it was designated for that use. It's not a commercial property as is apparent from the listing and everything else the Court has already seen. Counsel referred to the sub-fund, the Taurus Fund, that allegedly used G Club investments to buy this property. Your Honor, the Department of Justice, in its criminal indictment, has charged Mr. Kwok with a close to billion- dollar fraud, a big part of which was his use of G Club investments to fund his own personal expenditures including specifically the acquisition of this house. There's going to be other evidence in the record that shows that the one person who did live in this house, and has all of his treasured personal belongings in the house, is Mr. Kwok. We don't think there's any doubt about that. What we do have, and this is very important, is these videos. The dates on them are, well, it's April 12th, 2023, after the debtor is incarcerated. I don't think it's\n\nFiore Reporting and Transcription Service, Inc.\n\nany coincidence that this became the, quote/unquote, \"Base\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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51 |\n| 1 | for the NFSC after the debtor had no physical ability to use |\n| 2 | the property.\" |\n| 3 | Your Honor, the other -- what we're also going to |\n| 4 | show in some of these videos is there's going to be a video |\n| 5 | where these same two individuals or their colleagues are |\n| 6 | standing outside the front door of the property and it's |\n| 7 | going to look like a college dorm with how many people are |\n| 8 | coming in and out, constantly.
It's like basically open to |\n| 9 | the public.
There is extremists. |\n| 10 | It's not just that -- and there not need be |\n| 11 | evidence that people are actually removing property from |\n| 12 | this house, it's the fact that there's a real risk, an |\n| 13 | eminent risk, that they would do so.
And why, why would |\n| 14 | they do it? |\n| 15 | Because these individuals who are members of this |\n| 16 | movement clearly don't live in the house.
They're not the |\n| 17 | owners of the house.
It's implausible.
It's illogical. |\n| 18 | Counsel wasn't suggesting otherwise.
They, therefore, have |\n| 19 | no reason to treat a house and its belongings like an owner |\n| 20 | would to preserve value. |\n| 21 | And if they think these members of the New Federal |\n| 22 | State of China, who the Court have found in the past were |\n| 23 | directing the protests at the home of the Trustee and have |\n| 24 | done things like file proofs of claim in this case in order |\n| 25 | to delay and disrupt this Chapter 11 case, if they think |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 52 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|---|--------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
52 |\n| 1 | they're going to lose this house to the Chapter 11 Trustee |\n| 2 | as part of this litigation, then I think they'll have an |\n| 3 | incentive that runs in the exact opposite direction, which |\n| 4 | is to make sure it doesn't have value for the estate and for |\n| 5 | creditors. |\n| 6 | So not only potentially take extremely valuable |\n| | |\n\n belongings such as antiques out of the home, and televisions and other things like a \\$25,000 mattress, they may harm and destroy the property. And we'll have more testimony from the Trustee as to his basis for that fear.\n\n But that's what this is all about. It is absolutely not sufficient that this property, which is being used in this manner and should be maintained for the benefit of creditors of this estate, simply be preserved and that it's not sold or encumbered. We need the broader relief that we're seeking in our preliminary injunction.\n\n So that, that's my response. And we'll get into that more in closing argument later, but that doesn't work.\n\n As to how we proceed, I'm happy to take a break on this particular issue given that I think now we have agreed that we're at a transition point where the Trustee would momentarily step down from the stand and we would have or in a manner in speaking colleague take the stand.\n\n If there's a possible solution on that issue, I'm happy to talk about that now.\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 53 But the broader solution suggested by counsel for this hearing just doesn't work for the reasons that I've suggested. THE COURT: All right. Then we're going to take a break and give the parties some time to talk. It is 12:44. We'll come back at 1:05. All right. So court is in recess until 1:05. And, Mr. Despins, obviously, as you know, you remain under oath. (Court recessed at 12:45 p.m.) (Proceedings resumed at 1:07 p.m.) THE COURT: Please be seated. All right. We took a short recess and the parties were going to discuss a few things I suppose, but certainly with regard to the issue of Exhibit 21. So, Attorney Bassett, do you have anything you would like to report to the Court? MR. BASSETT: Your Honor, so we did speak with counsel to Taurus Fund. We were not able to come up with a solution other than that we both agreed that we would just try to put Ms. Song, we would call Ms. Song to the witness stand and try to deal with any testimony that she needs to provide as expeditiously as possible. THE COURT: Okay. Go right ahead then. MR. BASSETT: And Mr. Luft is going to be handling Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 53 of\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 54 the examination, Your Honor. THE COURT: Go ahead, Attorney Luft. MR. LUFT: Your Honor, may Ms. Song approach the bench? THE COURT: Yes, please. Go to the witness box, you mean? MR. LUFT: Yes. Thank you. I'm going to stand, and she'll go to the box. THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please. (The witness is sworn.) THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: State your name and address for the record, please. THE WITNESS: My name is Lui Song, L-U-Y-I S-O-N- G. Address at 200 Park Avenue, New York. THE COURT: You know what, yeah, I think the microphone didn't pick you up. THE WITNESS: Oh, I need to speak into the mic? THE COURT: I'm sorry. THE WITNESS: Okay. Yeah. My name is Luyi Song, L-U-Y-I S-O-N-G. Address is at 200 Park Avenue, New York. THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. THE COURT: You can be seated. Thank you. MR. LUFT: Thank you, Your Honor. For the record, Avi Luft of Paul Hastings on Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 54 of\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 55 behalf of the Trustee. Your Honor, if I may, I'm going to do a little bit of background with Ms. Song and then get to the questions. THE COURT: Sure. LUYI SONG, TRUSTEE'S WITNESS, SWORN DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LUFT: Q Ms. Song, where were you born? A I was born in China. Q Okay. And what is your native tongue? A Jinan, Shandong Province. Q And what language did you speak growing up? A Chinese. Q Can you tell the Court a little bit about your educational background? A Sure. I went to primary school in China. I went to middle school in China. Language of instruction for both schools was primarily Chinese or actually only Chinese. I went to high school in Singapore, where the language of instruction was English. I went to college in Germany, where the language of instruction is English. I graduated from the University of Minnesota Law School, where the language of instruction was English. And now I'm working at Paul Hastings. Q And in what language do you do your work at Paul\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 55 of\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 56 Hastings? A In English. Q And in which departments do you work? A I work full time for the Bankruptcy M&A Department. Q In what languages are you fluent? A I'm fluent in English. And Chinese is my native language. Q Thank you, Song. MR. LUFT: Your Honor, at this point, I'm going to turn to the work she did in this matter if that's okay with the Court? THE COURT: Yes. Go right ahead. BY MR. LUFT: Q Ms Song, there was a video that was played and a number of clips, were you here to see that? A Yes. Q I believe that was Trustee Exhibit 21, which on thumb drive has been marked ast Exhibit 9. A Yes, correct. Q Okay. Ms. Song, did you watch all of Exhibit 21? A Yes, I did. Q And you were asked to translate portions of it? A Yes, I did. Yes, I was. Q Let me ask you, for the whole, all of what is at Exhibit 21, marked as Exhibit 9, is there any portion of Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 56 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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57 |\n| 1 | that video that you did not translate that is inconsistent |\n| 2 | with anything that you did translate? |\n| 3 | A
No. |\n| 4 | Q
Okay.
And why did you choose to translate the portions |\n| 5 | that you did translate? |\n| 6 | A
Because Mr. Kwok was referenced in those sections. |\n| 7 | Q
And in the entirety of the other video, was any other |\n| 8 | individual or entity referenced as being the owner of the |\n| 9 | mansion at any time in the remainder of the video? |\n| 10 | A
No. |\n| 11 | MR. LUFT:
Your Honor, at this point, what I'd |\n| 12 | really want to do is see how we could be helpful to the |\n| 13 | Court.
There are a number of clips.
I know there was |\n| 14 | issues about portions that were not translated.
Ms. Song is |\n| 15 | available to translate those portions if that would be of |\n| 16 | assistance to the Court.
She only asks that she be given a |\n| 17 | pen and paper and that we pause it while we do it. |\n| 18 | THE COURT:
Well, I'm going to ask counsel what |\n| 19 | he's looking for as well. |\n| 20 | But my point was -- and I can definitely give you |\n| 21 | a piece of paper and a pencil -- |\n| 22 | MR. LUFT:
I have one, Your Honor. |\n| 23 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. |\n| 24 | I just, when I was looking at the video, there |\n| 25 | were certain points where one of the two individuals was |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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58 |\n| 1 | speaking and that those words were not translated.
And I |\n| 2 | just was curious as to why they were not translated? |\n| 3 | THE WITNESS:
Understood.
I translated the |\n| 4 | portion where Mr. Kwok's name was referenced.
And the other |\n| 5 | ones that were not translated, they do not contain |\n| 6 | substantive content. |\n| 7 | THE COURT:
Okay.
And they don't contain Mr. |\n| 8 | Kwok's name -- |\n| 9 | THE WITNESS:
No. |\n| 10 | THE COURT:
-- so you didn't translate it? |\n| 11 | THE WITNESS:
That's correct. |\n| 12 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Counsel, there are parts of the |\n| 13 | clips of the videos that you'd like to have Ms. Song |\n| 14 | translate? |\n| 15 | MR. CONWAY:
Yes, Your Honor. |\n| 16 | What Mr. Bassett and I discussed was the numbers |\n| 17 | of the clips that had, you know, questions translated, but |\n| 18 | not answers, and so on. |\n| 19 | And what we discussed was that, as the witness |\n| 20 | indicated, as long as it have -- there be a pause each time |\n| 21 | a portion was -- a portion of the testimony was given so |\n| 22 | that it could be translated, that's the way we talked about |\n| 23 | handling this here. |\n| 24 | THE COURT:
All right.
So how would you want to |\n| 25 | proceed?
Are we going through -- |\n| | |\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 59 MR. CONWAY: Playing the -- THE COURT: You had mentioned three -- you had a list it appeared to me of a few clips that you had questions about. MR. CONWAY: Correct. And I gave those numbers to Mr. Bassett, who I assumed passed them on. THE COURT: Okay. Okay. So you're going to pulls those up? We're going to pull those up and we're going through, okay. MR. LUFT: We will, Your Honor. THE COURT: So go ahead. What clip are we going to look at again first? MR. LUFT: My understanding the first clip Mr. Conway wants to see is clip number three from Exhibit 21. THE COURT: Okay. MR. LUFT: So if I could ask that to be brought up. THE COURT: Thank you. That will happen momentarily. (Exhibit 21, clip three, played) MR. LUFT: And again, I'll ask that the witness be allowed to just to ask that it be paused when she needs to make sure that the translation is accurate and she has sufficient time. THE COURT: Okay. So we shall start again? Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 59 of\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 60 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|------------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luyi Song - Direct - Luft
60 |\n| 1 | MR. LUFT:
Please, Your Honor. |\n| 2 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Go right ahead. |\n| 3 | (Exhibit 21, clip three, played) |\n| 4 | THE WITNESS:
Please pause. |\n| 5 | THE COURT:
Please pause.
Okay. |\n| 6 | THE WITNESS:
So the man says the mansion is about |\n| 7 | 13 acres.
And the woman commented it's pretty big.
And the |\n| 8 | man said it's pretty big. |\n| 9 | THE COURT:
Okay. |\n| 10 | (Exhibit 21, clip three, played) |\n| 11 | THE WITNESS:
Please pause. |\n| 12 | THE COURT:
Please pause.
Yeah. |\n| 13 | THE WITNESS:
The woman says, sure, let's follow |\n| 14 | (indiscernible) Brother and see the place. |\n| 15 | THE COURT:
Say that again.
She's referring to |\n| 16 | the gentleman? |\n| 17 | THE WITNESS:
So the lady was saying, sure, let's |\n| 18 | follow (indiscernible) Brother, which I believe is the |\n| 19 | gentleman here in the video and see the place. |\n| 20 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. |\n| 21 | (Exhibit 21, clip three, played) |\n| 22 | THE WITNESS:
The last bit that the woman was |\n| 23 | saying is so this building. |\n| 24 | THE COURT:
Okay. |\n| 25 | MR. LUFT:
If Your Honor has no questions about |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 61 of\n\n| | | 196 | |\n|----|----------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------|----|\n| | | Luyi Song - Direct - Luft | 61 |\n| 1 | | that, we can move to the next clip. | |\n| 2 | | THE COURT:
Do you have any, Counsel? | |\n| 3 | | MR. CONWAY:
No, Your Honor.
None. | |\n| 4 | | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. | |\n| 5 | | Then let's move to the next clip. | |\n| 6 | | MR. LUFT:
Thank you. | |\n| 7 | | The next one is clip four.
Thank you. | |\n| 8 | | (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) | |\n| 9 | | THE WITNESS:
Please pause. | |\n| 10 | | The woman says it has historical and cultural | |\n| 11 | values. | | |\n| 12 | | (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) | |\n| 13 | | THE WITNESS:
Please pause. | |\n| 14 | | She said this is the Palace of (indiscernible) the | |\n| 15 | United States. | | |\n| 16 | | (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) | |\n| 17 | | MR. LUFT:
Can I ask for a pause. | |\n| 18 | | THE COURT:
Pause, please. | |\n| 19 | | MR. LUFT:
Your Honor, there had been a question | |\n| 20 | | about reading the microphone.
I think this was a lot easier | |\n| 21 | to do at this point. | | |\n| 22 | | THE COURT:
Yeah.
I can see it.
I saw it a | |\n| 23 | minute ago as well. | | |\n| 24 | | MR. LUFT:
Okay. | |\n| 25 | | THE COURT:
Thank you. | |\n| | | | |\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 62 (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. He said inside the building we did a lot of renovations. (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. He said in the past year, the year of 2022, this entire place has been renovated and was under renovation. (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. He said now you can see some of the places are still not done yet. And we can see as we pass by that there are still places under construction. (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. So the lady says last time in April the 8th about 500 fellow (indiscernible) from 20 global farms went to see this place for the first time. (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. The last sentence she said before the translation was, so they, meaning the fellow (indiscernible), they were deeply touched. (Exhibit 21, clip four, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 62 of\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 63 So the man says this place is for the fellow (indiscernible) to meet up. The three C office was not big enough. THE COURT: The what office? THE WITNESS: So I believe the three C office they're referring to was the office at 3 Columbus Circle, New York. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. LUFT: Your Honor, again, I'll turn to Mr. Conway. THE COURT: Counsel, do you have any questions about that? MR. CONWAY: I don't. Thank you. THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. And what's the next clip? MR. LUFT: Clip five, Your Honor. THE COURT: Clip five. Okay. (Exhibit 21, clip five, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. I believe they were talking about the organ pipe in the building and the man says last time a fellow (indiscernible), I believe the name is Qmey, was playing it and was able to produce a sound from the pipe. THE COURT: Could you spell that name Qmey, please. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 63 of\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 64 of\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 64 THE WITNESS: It's Q-M-E-Y. THE COURT: Thank you. (Exhibit 21, clip five, played) THE WITNESS: And please pause. The last sentence the man says was I believe he was -- he meant the pipe was different from a piano. So the organ pipe is different from a piano. (Exhibit 21, clip five, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. He said -- the man says this place for the past few decades has been a seminary and it's a place of faith. (Exhibit 21, clip five, played) THE WITNESS: Okay. The last comment made by the man was that this place is of historical importance and is a historical relic. THE COURT: Anything further, Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Not on that, no. THE COURT: Okay. MR. LUFT: Your Honor, clip six is the next one we've been requested to play. THE COURT: Clip six. Okay. (Exhibit 21, clip six, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. The party said before the translation starts was the farms, the vegetable farms.\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 65 (Exhibit 21, clip six, played) THE WITNESS: The last part he says these have all been -- I believe he meant to say under renovation or construction. MR. CONWAY: Nothing from me. THE COURT: Nothing? Okay. MR. LUFT: Okay. Clip seven is the next one we've been requested to play. THE COURT: Clip seven. (Exhibit 21, clip seven, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. The man says this place for the past few decades has been able to host two to 300 people, 100 to 200 people. I'm sorry. (Exhibit 21, clip seven, played) THE WITNESS: The last part he says, yes, 2000 to 3000 people in this place. MR. LUFT: Your Honor, Mr. Conway? THE COURT: Anything further? Any questions, Counsel? MR. CONWAY: No. I appreciate the translation. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 65 of\n\nTHE COURT: Is that all the clips now?\n\nMR. LUFT: No, there's two more, Your Honor.\n\nTHE COURT: That's fine.\n\nMR. LUFT: I apologize.\n\nLuyi Song - Direct - Luft 66 THE COURT: That's fine. That's not a problem. MR. LUFT: Clip eight is the next one we've been asked to play. (Exhibit 21, clip eight, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. He said the seminary, the old organ pipe, and there's a sauna room here. (Exhibit 21, clip eight, played) THE WITNESS: And the last word she said before the translations start are entertainment facilities. (Exhibit 21, clip eight, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. He said including how to receive these people, how to manage the registration and sign up. Would you mind going back maybe two or three seconds? I didn't catch the last part. Thank you. (Exhibit 21, clip eight, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. He said for G Club annual meeting for the premium members and also for smaller groups of people. (Exhibit 21, clip eight, played) THE WITNESS: Please pause. He said how are we going to receive them? There will be plans in the future. (Exhibit 21, clip eight, played) Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 66 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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67 |\n| 1 | THE WITNESS:
Please pause. |\n| 2 | He said this place is where the G Club members can |\n| 3 | enjoy.
And he also said the NFSC fellow fighters are also |\n| 4 | welcome to come. |\n| 5 | (Exhibit 21, clip eight, played) |\n| 6 | THE WITNESS:
The last part she said, really, |\n| 7 | (indiscernible) Brother, when I first joined the |\n| 8 | whistleblower movement I never thought, and the clip ended. |\n| 9 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| 10 | MR. CONWAY:
Thank you. |\n| 11 | THE COURT:
And then we have the last? |\n| 12 | MR. LUFT:
One more, Your Honor. |\n| 13 | We've been asked to play clip ten. |\n| 14 | THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:
I'm sorry.
You said clip |\n| 15 | ten? |\n| 16 | MR. LUFT:
Yes. |\n| 17 | THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:
Okay. |\n| 18 | (Exhibit 21, clip 10, played. |\n| 19 | THE WITNESS:
Please pause. |\n| 20 | So what the lady was saying before the |\n| 21 | translations start was a group of Chinese people with dark |\n| 22 | hair and yellow skin came to this place. |\n| 23 | (Exhibit 21, clip ten, played) |\n| 24 | THE WITNESS:
Please pause. |\n| 25 | The last sentence the man says is in between this |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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196 | |\n|----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|----|\n| | Luyi Song - Cross - Conway | 68 |\n| 1 | place has been a seminary for a few decades. | |\n| 2 | THE COURT:
Anything -- | |\n| 3 | MR. CONWAY:
Thank you.
That's it.
Are those the | |\n| 4 | clips? | |\n| 5 | MR. LUFT:
Your Honor, those are all the clips | |\n| 6 | we've been asked about.
If you have any questions for Ms. | |\n| 7 | Song, she's available. | |\n| 8 | THE COURT:
I don't have any further questions. | |\n| 9 | Thank you.
That was helpful to me. | |\n| 10 | So Counsel, do you have any further questions? | |\n| 11 | MR. CONWAY:
Just one, maybe two, depending on the | |\n| 12 | answer. | |\n| 13 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Go right ahead. | |\n| 14 | MR. CONWAY:
Thank you. | |\n| 15 | CROSS-EXAMINATION | |\n| 16 | BY MR. CONWAY: | |\n| 17 | Q
Good afternoon. | |\n| 18 | A
Good afternoon. | |\n| 19 | Q
You mentioned that your native language is Chinese? | |\n| 20 | A
Correct. | |\n| 21 | Q
Which dialect? | |\n| 22 | A
Mandarin Chinese. | |\n| 23 | Q
And which dialect -- which dialect is being used in the | |\n| 24 | video? | |\n| 25 | A
Mandarin Chinese. | |\n| | | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 69 of\n\nLuyi Song - Cross - Conway 69 Q Thank you. THE COURT: Anything further, Attorney Luft? MR. LUFT: No, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. You can step down, Ms. Song. Thank you very much. THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. (Witness excused) THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bassett? MR. BASSETT: Yes, Your Honor. THE COURT: You're now moving for the admission in full of Exhibit 21? MR. BASSETT: Yes, Your Honor. THE COURT: Counsel, you stand on your objection? MR. CONWAY: Stand on the objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Thank you. All right. I've considered the Exhibit 21 and the objection from counsel, and I understand the objection, and I understand the reasoning behind the objection, but I am going to overrule the objection and admit Exhibit 21 as a full exhibit. And your objection is noted for the record. MR. CONWAY: Thank you, Your Honor. THE COURT: Thank you. (Trustee's Exhibit 21, with video labeled Exhibit 9 on thumb drive, received in evidence)\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 70 MR. BASSETT: Your Honor, at this point, if it pleases the Court, we would continue the Trustee's testimony. THE COURT: Yes, please. Yes. Thank you. MR. BASSETT: May the Trustee approach and -- THE COURT: Yes. MR. BASSETT: Thank you. LUC DESPINS, Previously Sworn DIRECT EXAMINATION, Cont'd BY MR. BASSETT: Q So, Mr. Despins, we have now talked about Exhibit 21 on the Trustee's exhibit list. We have a few more videos which I think will go relatively quickly, at least more quickly than Exhibit 21 did, that I'd like to -- additional video exhibits that I would like to show you. MR. BASSETT: And if the courtroom deputy could please pull up from the Trustee's exhibit list on ECF the PDF exhibit page for Exhibit 24. Thank you very much. And then if you can scroll to the page, please. BY MR. BASSETT: Q So earlier, Mr. Despins, I asked you if you had clicked on the links for each of Exhibits 21 through 27. I believe that you said you did. Did you, for this Exhibit 24, did you visit that link this morning? A Yes, I did. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 70 of\n\n| Case 22-50073
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71 |\n| Q
And does what is shown here on this Exhibit 24, is that |\n| consistent with what you saw when you visited that website |\n| this morning? |\n| A
It is. |\n| Q
And again, you see at the top it says the New Federal |\n| State of China, is it your understanding that this is a |\n| website associated with the New Federal State of China? |\n| A
Yes, it is. |\n| Q
And then this black, again this black box that has the |\n| rectangle in the middle of the screen, with the April 9th, |\n| 2023 date on the left-hand side, is that to your |\n| understanding a video? |\n| A
Yes, that's a video I watched. |\n| Q
You watched that video this morning? |\n| A
Yes. |\n| Q
Okay.
And you previously described a process by which |\n| Paul Hastings' personnel, working with a vendor, preserved |\n| and created slips of videos.
Is it your understanding that |\n| they created a clip of this video too? |\n| A
That's correct. |\n| MR. BASSETT:
With that, I would like to play for |\n| the Court what is marked on the thumb drive as I believe |\n| Exhibit 22, which corresponds to Trustee's Exhibit 24. |\n| (Exhibit 24, with video labeled Exhibit 22 on thumb |\n| drive, played) |\n| |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 72 BY MR. BASSETT: Q Mr. Despins, is that the video that you saw when you visited the link for Exhibit 24 earlier this morning? A Yes, it is. Q And do you recognize the building or structure that appears in the background of this video? A Yeah. The Mahwah mansion, yes. MR. BASSETT: And this, Your Honor, was the full, this is not a clipped version, it's the full version of the video for the record. And that is not a translation that we provided. That's a translation, as I described to counsel, that was actually on the video posted online. With that, Your Honor, we would move for the admission of Trustee's Exhibit 24. THE COURT: Thank you. Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Thank you, Your Honor. Similar to the last video, the foundation has not been properly laid as to how this video was made, who the speakers are, what their -- what their reason for saying the things that they're saying on this video or the manner in which this video was created or even preserved here for us today. And based on that, even though again this is a preliminary injunction hearing, I believe that the hearsay Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 72 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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73 |\n| 1 | objection is also well taken. |\n| 2 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| 3 | Attorney Bassett? |\n| 4 | MR. BASSETT:
Your Honor, I won't repeat points |\n| 5 | that have already been made.
The Court has already made |\n| 6 | findings with respect to NFSC. |\n| 7 | Your Honor will also recognize the G Translator's |\n| 8 | logo in the upper, right-hand corner, which also was the |\n| 9 | subject of prior testimony and evidence before this court. |\n| 10 | I think we have laid the foundation for this |\n| 11 | document by the Trustee having testified as to the process |\n| 12 | by which it was preserved, the fact that it is located on |\n| 13 | the NFSC website. |\n| 14 | And as to the hearsay issue that counsel raised, I |\n| 15 | would note that we are in large part introducing this |\n| 16 | exhibit to show the level of activity that is occurring at |\n| 17 | the Mahwah mansion, the people going in and out, which I |\n| 18 | kind of alluded to earlier.
It almost looks like a building |\n| 19 | on a college campus.
That's not hearsay.
That can plainly |\n| 20 | be seen from the video itself. |\n| 21 | And for all those reasons, Your Honor, we think |\n| 22 | this video is admissible and we would ask for it to be |\n| 23 | admitted into evidence. |\n| 24 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Any response, Counsel? |\n| 25 | MR. CONWAY:
Only that there's been a number of |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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74 |\n| 1 | references to other litigation where things had been proven |\n| 2 | and I wasn't there and I don't think they relate to this |\n| 3 | case. |\n| 4 | I would agree though that this reminds me of my |\n| 5 | college campus. |\n| 6 | THE COURT:
Exhibit 24 and the video Exhibit 22 on |\n| 7 | the thumb drive are admitted in full over objection. |\n| 8 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 9 | (Trustee's Exhibit 24, with video labeled Exhibit 22 on |\n| 10 | thumb drive, received in evidence) |\n| 11 | MR. BASSETT:
At this point, I would like to go |\n| 12 | back to the exhibit list itself. |\n| 13 | And if the courtroom deputy could please pull up |\n| 14 | the cover page for Exhibit 25.
Thank you. |\n| 15 | You'll see there is a URL there like there has |\n| 16 | been on the last exhibits.
And then if we scroll down to |\n| 17 | the next page, please. |\n| 18 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 19 | Q
Trustee Despins, did you also visit the link this |\n| 20 | morning associated with this video? |\n| 21 | A
Yes, I did. |\n| 22 | Q
And did it take you to a webpage that looks like the |\n| 23 | one that appears here on Trustee's Exhibit 25? |\n| 24 | A
Correct. |\n| 25 | Q
And again, this is the New Federal State of China |\n| | |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 75 website like the last video? A It is. Q And you instructed your team with the assistance of a vendor to preserve the video that appears on the screen? A We did. MR. BASSETT: With that, I would like to play this video which is at, again, it's Trustee's Exhibit 25, but on the thumb drive this one is labeled as Exhibit 23. (Exhibit 25, with video labeled Exhibit 23 on thumb drive, played) BY MR. BASSETT: Q Mr. Despins, was this video that we just saw the same video that you saw when you clicked on the link for Exhibit 25 this morning? A It is. Q There were some -- if you were following along, there were some mentions in the translated text to a Brother Seven. Based on your experience in this case or otherwise, do you have an understanding of who that's a reference to? A Yeah. That's an alias for Mr. Kwok. It's referred to in many documents. And the indictment actually refers to Brother Seven. MR. BASSETT: I would just note for the Court again the date of this video is April 9th, 2023. According to the image on the screen there, there's a New Federal Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 75 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 76 State of China logo in the bottom left. And then in the top right, again, we see G Translators. With that, the Trustee would move for the admission of the video that appears at Trustee's Exhibit 25. THE COURT: Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Your Honor, if I may, may I incorporate by reference my objection to Exhibit 24? THE COURT: Yes, you may. Thank you. MR. CONWAY: Okay. Same objection. THE COURT: Thank you. Exhibit 25, that's just the cover page, and Exhibit 23 on the thumb drive, which is the corresponding video, are admitted in full over objection. MR. BASSETT: Thank you, Your Honor. (Trustee's Exhibit 25, with video labeled Exhibit 23 on thumb drive, received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: At this point, if we could do the same exercise pulling up the PDF slip sheet for Trustee's Exhibit 26. Again, this exhibit slip sheet contains a URL there. And if you scroll down to the page. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Trustee Despins, was this another URL that you clicked on this morning? A Yes, it is. Q And again, it's to the New Federal State of China Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 76 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 77 website? A Correct. Q And there's a video on this page? A Yes, there is. Q Is this one of the videos that you asked your team to preserve according to the process we talked about this morning? A Yes, it is. MR. BASSETT: With that, I would like to play the video associated with Trustee's Exhibit 26, which was labeled as Exhibit 24 on the thumb drive. (Exhibit 26, with video labeled Exhibit 24 on thumb drive, played) BY MR. BASSETT: Q Trustee Despins, the clip that we just watched, was that the same video that you viewed this morning when you clicked on the link associated with Trustee Exhibit 26? A Yes, it was. MR. BASSETT: With that, Your Honor, we would similarly move for the admission of Trustee's Exhibit 26 and the associated video clip at Exhibit 24 of the thumb drive into evidence. THE COURT: Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Your Honor, may I incorporate by reference my objection to Exhibits 24 and 25? Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 77 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 78 THE COURT: Yes, you may. Thank you. MR. CONWAY: Same objection. THE COURT: Exhibit 26 with the corresponding video on Exhibit 24 are admitted in full over objection. MR. BASSETT: Thank you, Your Honor. (Trustee's Exhibit 26, with video labeled Exhibit 24 on thumb drive, received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: And we just have three more of these. If I could please ask the courtroom deputy at this time to pull up on the screen the exhibit slip sheet associated with Trustee Exhibit 27. Like the other exhibits, there's a URL on the first page of the exhibit, of Exhibit 27. If you scroll down to the second page, please. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Trustee Despins, is that URL on the first page another URL that you visited this morning? A Yes, absolutely. Q Did it take you to a webpage that looks like the one that appears here on Exhibit 27? A Yes. Q We talked about this earlier, but do you understand this to be the website GETTR? A Yes, I do. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 78 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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79 |\n| 1 | Q
Again, we talked about this, but there's NFSCTV with a |\n| 2 | red checkmark next to it, correct? |\n| 3 | A
Correct. |\n| 4 | Q
And you asked your colleagues to preserve a clip of |\n| 5 | this video in the same way that we discussed earlier, your |\n| 6 | team? |\n| 7 | A
Yes. |\n| 8 | MR. BASSETT:
With that, I'd like to please have |\n| 9 | the courtroom deputy play if we can Exhibit 27, which is on |\n| 10 | the thumb drive Exhibit 25. |\n| 11 | And I would note for the Court at the bottom of |\n| 12 | this it says NFSC third anniversary associated with the |\n| 13 | caption of the video. |\n| 14 | (Exhibit 27, with video labeled Exhibit 25 on thumb |\n| 15 | drive, played) |\n| 16 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 17 | Q
Trustee Despins, was that clip that you just saw part |\n| 18 | of the video that you watched when you clicked on the link |\n| 19 | associated with Exhibit 25? |\n| 20 | A
Yes, it is. |\n| 21 | MR. BASSETT:
With that, Your Honor, we would move |\n| 22 | for the admission of Trustee's Exhibit 27.
Sorry.
I think |\n| 23 | I referred to it as Exhibit 25.
It's Exhibit 25 on the |\n| 24 | thumb drive, but it's Trustee's Exhibit 27.
We would move |\n| 25 | for the admission Trustee's Exhibit 27, as well as the clip |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 80 appearing on the thumb drive at Exhibit 25 that we just watched. THE COURT: Thank you. Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Your Honor, may I incorporate by reference my objection stated to Exhibit 24? THE COURT: You may. Thank you. MR. CONWAY: Objection is foundation. THE COURT: Exhibit 27 with the corresponding video on the thumb drive as Exhibit 25 are admitted in full over objection. (Trustee's Exhibit 27, with video labeled Exhibit 25 on thumb drive, received in evidence exhibit) MR. BASSETT: Thank you, Your Honor. At this point, there are just two more exhibits. The first one is Trustee's Exhibit 22. And again, if I could ask the courtroom deputy to please bring up the exhibit slip sheet associated with that exhibit. Again, Exhibit 22 has a URL link. If you scroll down to the second page. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Trustee Despins, is this the link that we just saw in the first page of Trustee's Exhibit 22? Is that another link that you have clicked on this morning? A Yes, it is. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 80 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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81 |\n| 1 | Q
And did you ask your team to preserve the video |\n| 2 | appearing at that link in accordance with the process you |\n| 3 | described this morning? |\n| 4 | A
Yes, I did. |\n| 5 | Q
And again, as we had discussed, this is a -- this link |\n| 6 | is of a GETTR page, is that right? |\n| 7 | A
That's correct. |\n| 8 | Q
And here, instead of NFSCTV, it says Miles Guo with a |\n| 9 | checkmark next to it, do you see that? |\n| 10 | A
Yes, I do. |\n| 11 | Q
What do you understand that signifies? |\n| 12 | A
That it's -- it's his account, because with the red |\n| 13 | check that means it's certified to be his account. |\n| 14 | MR. BASSETT:
With that, I would ask the courtroom |\n| 15 | deputy to please play the video on the thumb drive |\n| 16 | associated with Trustee's Exhibit 22, which Exhibit 20 on |\n| 17 | the thumb drive. |\n| 18 | And just for the record and the Court, this |\n| 19 | exhibit and the next one are in the language being spoken is |\n| 20 | Mandarin.
We did not translate it because we're not |\n| 21 | offering it for any substance of what's said.
We're just |\n| 22 | offering it for the images that appear on the screen. |\n| 23 | (Exhibit 22, with video labeled Exhibit 20 on thumb |\n| 24 | drive, played) |\n| 25 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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82 |\n| 1 | Q
Trustee Despins, is that the video that you saw when |\n| 2 | you clicked on the link associated with Trustee Exhibit 22? |\n| 3 | A
Yes, it is. |\n| 4 | MR. BASSETT:
And again, Your Honor, we're just |\n| 5 | admitting this for the purpose of showing Mr. Kwok on the |\n| 6 | post, which as the exhibit slip sheet indicated was a |\n| 7 | January 11th, 2023 post.
We're just admitting this to show |\n| 8 | that Mr. Kwok was filming the video as you can see from the |\n| 9 | camera from the same location in the mansion that other |\n| 10 | videos have been filmed that we have seen. |\n| 11 | And with that, we would move for admission of |\n| 12 | Exhibit 22 and the associated clip at Exhibit 20. |\n| 13 | THE COURT:
Counsel? |\n| 14 | MR. CONWAY:
Yes, Your Honor.
The same foundation |\n| 15 | objection as raised to Exhibit 24.
If I may incorporate |\n| 16 | that by reference? |\n| 17 | THE COURT:
Yes, you may.
Thank you. |\n| 18 | Plaintiff's Exhibit 22 with the corresponding |\n| 19 | video at Exhibit 20 is admitted in full over objection. |\n| 20 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 21 | (Trustee's Exhibit 22, with video labeled Exhibit 20 on |\n| 22 | thumb drive, received in evidence) |\n| 23 | MR. BASSETT:
The last and final video clip |\n| 24 | appears at Trustee Exhibit 23, |\n| 25 | And if I could please ask the courtroom deputy to |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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83 |\n| 1 | bring up the slip sheet for Exhibit 23. |\n| 2 | Yet again, we see a link to a URL here.
If you |\n| 3 | scroll to the second page, please. |\n| 4 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 5 | Q
Trustee Despins, is this -- does this image on the |\n| 6 | screen here, is that what you found when you clicked on the |\n| 7 | link that we saw on the first page this morning? |\n| 8 | A
Yes, it is. |\n| 9 | Q
And you asked your team to preserve a video that was |\n| 10 | contained on this post? |\n| 11 | A
Yes, I did. |\n| 12 | MR. BASSETT:
If we could please play the video |\n| 13 | associated with Exhibit 23, which is on the thumb drive as |\n| 14 | Exhibit 21. |\n| 15 | (Exhibit 23, with video labeled Exhibit 21 on thumb |\n| 16 | drive, played) |\n| 17 | MR. BASSETT:
Could you please pause the video. |\n| 18 | Your Honor, just to save us all a minute and 44 |\n| 19 | seconds, I was going to note that like the last video we are |\n| 20 | simply introducing this for the purpose of showing that this |\n| 21 | is a video with a date label of February 19th, 2023 with an |\n| 22 | individual readily identified as Mr. Kwok on the screen |\n| 23 | filming a video in what appears to be the same location in |\n| 24 | the mansion.
There's nothing translated and we're not |\n| 25 | offering it for the substance of what he's saying. |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 84 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|--------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
84 |\n| 1 | So I'm happy to play the whole thing, but if it |\n| 2 | would speed things up we would at this point, subject to any |\n| 3 | objections or issues the Court may have, we would offer |\n| 4 | Exhibit 22 into evidence, which, I'm sorry, Exhibit 23 into |\n| 5 | evidence, which his on the thumb drive Exhibit 21. |\n| 6 | THE COURT:
Counsel, would you like to see the |\n| 7 | whole video? |\n| 8 | MR. CONWAY:
I don't need to see the whole video, |\n| 9 | Your Honor. |\n| 10 | I would ask -- I would still object on foundation |\n| 11 | grounds for the same reasons I objected to Exhibit 24 and |\n| 12 | 22, if I can incorporate those objections by reference? |\n| 13 | THE COURT:
Yes, you may.
Thank you. |\n| 14 | Plaintiff's Exhibit 23 with the corresponding |\n| 15 | video on the thumb drive as Exhibit 21 is admitted in full |\n| 16 | over objection. |\n| 17 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 18 | (Trustee's Exhibit 23, with video labeled Exhibit 21 on |\n| 19 | thumb drive, received in evidence) |\n| 20 | MR. BASSETT:
At this point, I would like to ask |\n| 21 | the Trustee some questions about a few additional exhibits. |\n| 22 | Thankfully these are not video exhibits, so I think these |\n| 23 | will go more quickly. |\n| 24 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 25 | Q
But, Trustee Despins, if you could please turn in your |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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85 |\n| 1 | exhibit binder to what is marked as Trustee Exhibit 13. |\n| 2 | MR. BASSETT:
And if we could similarly have the |\n| 3 | courtroom deputy please pull that exhibit up on the screen, |\n| 4 | that would be much appreciated.
Please scroll up to the |\n| 5 | first page.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And go back to the |\n| 6 | other page. |\n| 7 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 8 | Q
Trustee Despins, do you recognize what appears here as |\n| 9 | Trustee Exhibit 13? |\n| 10 | A
Yes, I do. |\n| 11 | Q
What do you understand this to be? |\n| 12 | A
It's the inside pocket of one of I believe 29 suits |\n| 13 | that were found by the FBI when they did the search, |\n| 14 | executed search warrant, at the Mahwah mansion on March |\n| 15 | 15th. |\n| 16 | Q
How did you get a copy of this picture? |\n| 17 | A
The Department of Justice prosecution of Mr. Kwok is |\n| 18 | led by an Assistant U.S. Attorney, Juliana Murray, who -- I |\n| 19 | called her in early July to get pictures of what the FBI had |\n| 20 | found at the mansion when they executed their search |\n| 21 | warrant, and she provided numerous pictures, and we selected |\n| 22 | I guess, you know, ten best of and that would be one of |\n| 23 | them. |\n| 24 | Q
So Ms. Murray is the person you spoke to? |\n| 25 | A
Correct. |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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86 |\n| 1 | Q
And she communicated to you that this image was an |\n| 2 | image taken by the FBI at the time they raided the mansion |\n| 3 | on March 15th, 2023? |\n| 4 | A
That's correct. |\n| 5 | Q
Did she tell you anything else about where they found |\n| 6 | it, for example? |\n| 7 | A
Yeah.
It was found in a dressing room believed to be |\n| 8 | the dressing room of Mr. Kwok in the mansion. |\n| 9 | Q
And I think you said, I think you may have mentioned |\n| 10 | like 29 other, did she say this was like an example of one |\n| 11 | suit? |\n| 12 | A
Yeah.
That's just a sample of one, yeah. |\n| 13 | Q
What did she say about the other ones? |\n| 14 | A
That they all have that label. |\n| 15 | MR. BASSETT:
With that, Your Honor, we would move |\n| 16 | for the admission of Trustee's Exhibit 13 into evidence. |\n| 17 | THE COURT:
Counsel? |\n| 18 | MR. CONWAY:
Foundation objection, Your Honor. |\n| 19 | There's no foundation that this was actually something that |\n| 20 | was found at a location, but I understand the testimony. |\n| 21 | MR. BASSETT:
Your Honor, we've laid the |\n| 22 | foundation through Mr. Despins' testimony of his |\n| 23 | conversation with representatives of the U.S. Government |\n| 24 | with direct knowledge of how these images were obtained |\n| 25 | during the raid on March 15th. |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 87 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 87 Again, I will stress that in this circuit hearsay testimony is admissible, hearsay evidence is admissible. And to the extent that counsel would take issue with that hearsay, it only goes to the weight of the evidence at this stage, not to its admissibility. THE COURT: Anything further, Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Only to reiterate that my objection is on foundation. This photograph was apparently culled out from photographs. We don't know that this was a photograph that was referred to by an FBI agent, what have you. So regardless of whether it's hearsay or not, my objection is to foundation. MR. BASSETT: And just to be clear, Your Honor, my position is that we have laid the foundation through Mr. Despins's testimony, which was about his conversations with the representatives of the Government. To the extent that Trustee Despins' testimony consists of hearsay, i.e., his conversations with representatives of the Government, that is admissible at this stage of this proceeding. THE COURT: Okay. Trustee's Exhibit 13 is admitted in full over objection. MR. BASSETT: Thank you, Your Honor. (Trustee's Exhibit 13 received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: If I could please ask the courtroom\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 88 deputy to pull up the next exhibit, Exhibit 14. And scroll to the second page, please. Thank you. BY MR. BASSETT: Q And, Trustee Despins, Trustee's Exhibit 14, which has images of documents, some of which are redacted, I think everyone in the court can see that there's a learner's permit from New York State that says Kwok Ho Wan on it, and other documents also containing his name. Trustee Despins, do you have an understanding of where this document came from? A It's the same. That's a picture provided to us by the Department of Justice reflecting pictures taken by the FBI on March 15th, except that we redacted personal information about Mr. Kwok from these documents. Q Okay. And when you say found during the raid, you mean of the Mahwah mansion? A Yes, the execution of the search warrant. MR. BASSETT: So without belaboring it, Your Honor, we would offer Trustee's Exhibit 14 into evidence. THE COURT: Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Without belaboring it, Your Honor, I'd like to make the same foundation objection as I made to Exhibit 13. THE COURT: Thank you. So noted. Trustee's Exhibit 14 is admitted in full over Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 88 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 89 objection. (Trustee's Exhibit 14 received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: And there are five more of these, Your Honor, Exhibits 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19. Just to expedite the course of the hearing today, I may ask if I could just publish each exhibit one by one and then ask the Trustee sort of to confirm that each of those additional exhibits was obtained in the same way. I think that may make things move a little bit more quickly than asking the same questions as to each exhibit if that's acceptable to the Court. THE COURT: Counsel, do you have an opposition to the suggestion that the Exhibits 15, 16, 17 and 18 be taken together essentially, and then we can see what the answers are to the questions? MR. CONWAY: I think that's a reasonable way to go about this. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. BASSETT: Thank you. THE COURT: Go ahead, Attorney Bassett. MR. BASSETT: Thank you very much, Your Honor. So if we could please pull up Exhibit 15 and scroll to the second page. I would just note for the record that you see Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 89 of\n\nimages that appear to contain, as the Court is aware, images\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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90 |\n| 1 | of the debtor and his family members. |\n| 2 | If we could please go to Trustee's Exhibit 16. |\n| 3 | On this exhibit I would note for the record, |\n| 4 | although the font is fairly small, on the left-hand side of |\n| 5 | the page, you see what says, I believe that's Italian if I'm |\n| 6 | not mistaken at the top, and it says certificate of |\n| 7 | authenticity in English underneath it. |\n| 8 | And if you look at the English part of that page, |\n| 9 | it says Ferrari certifies the authenticity of this Speed |\n| 10 | Form.
And then it goes on. |\n| 11 | If you look at the letter on the right, it says |\n| 12 | Dear Mr. Guo.
And then there's a letter, which I won't read |\n| 13 | in its entirety, but it begins with it is a great pleasure |\n| 14 | for me to know that being one of our most affectionate |\n| 15 | customers you have decided to purchase a Ferrari Speedform. |\n| 16 | And then it goes on and it bears the signature of |\n| 17 | somebody who has underneath their name senior vice president |\n| 18 | for commercial and marketing. |\n| 19 | And then there's, I would also note for the record |\n| 20 | a piece of paper, at the bottom that's on the right-hand |\n| 21 | side of the page, states among other things location found, |\n| 22 | and it says Room E, and there's a reference to a buffet |\n| 23 | cabinet, middle section. |\n| 24 | With that, if the courtroom deputy could please |\n| 25 | put up Trustee's Exhibit 17. |\n| | |\n\n### Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 91 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
91 |\n| 1 | As to this image, I would note for the Court that |\n| 2 | there is a prescription medication bottle bearing the name |\n| 3 | Ho Wan Kwok.
Again, we've redacted sensitive, personal |\n| 4 | information from the image.
I would note that there's a |\n| 5 | piece of paper there which says, among other things, |\n| 6 | location found, and it mentions a mirrored dresser near |\n| 7 | window. |\n| 8 | With that, if the courtroom deputy could please |\n| 9 | bring up Trustee Exhibit 18.
You wouldn't mind zooming in. |\n| 10 | And I think what can be seen on the screen here is |\n| 11 | yet another document bearing what appears to be, although |\n| 12 | it's up to the Court's judgment, an image of the debtor and |\n| 13 | has his name Kwok Ho Wan on it. |\n| 14 | With that, the last image is Exhibit 19.
If the |\n| 15 | courtroom deputy could please pull that up. |\n| 16 | This image I would note for the record, it says at |\n| 17 | the top, Cedric DuPont Antiques.
It says certain things |\n| 18 | were sold to Taurus Fund, LLC.
It's a little dark, but in |\n| 19 | the upper, right-hand corner, you could see the date |\n| 20 | 2/11/2022, so February 11th, 2022. |\n| 21 | And then if you scroll down, I would note that |\n| 22 | February 11th, 2022 was, if I'm not mistaken, four days |\n| 23 | before the Chapter 11 petition date in this case. |\n| 24 | And if you look at this invoice, there are a |\n| 25 | number of antique items listed. |\n| | |\n\n## Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 92 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
92 |\n| 1 | First we have wrought iron and marble center |\n| 2 | table.
Then we have what appear to be certain mirrors. |\n| 3 | Then we have a magnificent pair of 19th century Italian |\n| 4 | gilt-wood mirrors.
Next there's a beautiful Italian 18th |\n| 5 | century, circa 1780, gilt-wood mirror from Tuscany.
And |\n| 6 | you'll see below that one there's a checkmark and it says |\n| 7 | boss's bedroom.
The next one below that is a reference to a |\n| 8 | French mid 19th century, another mirror.
And if you look |\n| 9 | under that one, it says -- there's the words Mei's |\n| 10 | bedroom/bathroom.
And as the Court is aware, I would note |\n| 11 | that the debtor's daughter's name is Mei Guo.
Last on this |\n| 12 | is reference to a spectacular and elegant early 19th century |\n| 13 | Italian mirror. |\n| 14 | And all total, on this invoice, the apparent cost |\n| 15 | of these items as invoiced is \\$218,078 according to what |\n| 16 | appears at the bottom of the invoice there on the right-hand |\n| 17 | side. |\n| 18 | THE WITNESS:
And also I would add, Your Honor, on |\n| 19 | the top, right-hand corner it says ship to and that says |\n| 20 | ship to the mansion in Mahwah. |\n| 21 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you. |\n| 22 | With that, Your Honor, that covers all of the |\n| 23 | similar picture exhibits that's Trustee's Exhibits 15 |\n| 24 | through 19. |\n| 25 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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93 |\n| 1 | Q
Trustee Despins, having looked at Exhibits 15 through |\n| 2 | 19, were these images ones that you obtained from the |\n| 3 | Department of Justice in the manner that you described for |\n| 4 | Trustee Exhibit 13 and 14? |\n| 5 | A
That's correct. |\n| 6 | MR. BASSETT:
So with that -- |\n| 7 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 8 | Q
And your understanding is that these are images that |\n| 9 | the DOJ told you were taken of items found in the Mahwah |\n| 10 | mansion on the day of the raid on March 15th, 2023? |\n| 11 | A
That's correct. |\n| 12 | MR. BASSETT:
So with that, Your Honor, we would |\n| 13 | move for the admission of Trustee Exhibits 15 through 19 |\n| 14 | into evidence. |\n| 15 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| 16 | Counsel? |\n| 17 | MR. CONWAY:
Similar objection on foundation |\n| 18 | grounds that was made to Exhibits 13 and 14.
If I can |\n| 19 | incorporate that by reference? |\n| 20 | THE COURT:
Thank you.
Your objection is noted. |\n| 21 | Trustee's Exhibits 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 are |\n| 22 | admitted in full over objection. |\n| 23 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 24 | (Trustee's Exhibit 15 received in evidence) |\n| 25 | (Trustee's Exhibit 16 received in evidence) |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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94 |\n| 1 | (Trustee's Exhibit 17 received in evidence) |\n| 2 | (Trustee's Exhibit 18 received in evidence) |\n| 3 | (Trustee's Exhibit 19 received in evidence) |\n| 4 | MR. BASSETT:
At this point, I have just a couple |\n| 5 | of questions for the Trustee about certain other exhibits. |\n| 6 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 7 | Q
If you could please turn to Trustee Exhibit 4 that |\n| 8 | appears in your binder. |\n| 9 | MR. BASSETT:
If we could please also have Trustee |\n| 10 | Exhibit 4 brought up on the screen. |\n| 11 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 12 | Q
Trustee Despins, do you have an understanding of what |\n| 13 | this exhibit is? |\n| 14 | A
Yes.
It's a screenshot of the Secretary of State of |\n| 15 | Nevada's website of a particular element of that website. |\n| 16 | Not the whole website, but what's relevant to Taurus Fund. |\n| 17 | Q
And do you have any understanding of how this was |\n| 18 | obtained? |\n| 19 | A
Yeah.
I've asked the team to go and pull from the |\n| 20 | website whatever information could be derived about these |\n| 21 | Taurus entities. |\n| 22 | Q
And this screenshot is what they captured from the |\n| 23 | Secretary of State website? |\n| 24 | A
That's correct. |\n| 25 | MR. BASSETT:
Your Honor, we are offering this |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 95 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|------------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
95 |\n| 1 | exhibit for the primary purpose of showing that the entity |\n| 2 | status as reported by the Secretary of State website for |\n| 3 | Taurus Fund, LLC is in default as appears about midway down |\n| 4 | the page.
I don't think that's controversial.
But for that |\n| 5 | purpose, we would offer Trustee Exhibit 4 into evidence. |\n| 6 | THE COURT:
Counsel? |\n| 7 | MR. CONWAY:
No objection. |\n| 8 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| 9 | Admitted 4, excuse me, Exhibit 4 is admitted in |\n| 10 | full. |\n| 11 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 12 | (Trustee's Exhibit 4 received in evidence) |\n| 13 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 14 | Q
If I could next direct your attention, Trustee Despins, |\n| 15 | to Trustee Exhibit 12.
Trustee Despins, do you know what |\n| 16 | this exhibit is? |\n| 17 | A
Yeah.
It's a screenshot from a LexisNexis search.
So |\n| 18 | obviously the Court is familiar with LexisNexis, but we use |\n| 19 | it all the time to do searches.
And I had instructed the |\n| 20 | team to do a search on Mr. Kwok and it produce this result |\n| 21 | showing him having an address at the Mahwah mansion. |\n| 22 | Q
And when was this search performed? |\n| 23 | A
I want to say July.
I forget the precise.
I think it |\n| 24 | -- yeah, July 11th. |\n| 25 | MR. BASSETT:
With that, Your Honor, we would |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 96 offer Trustee Exhibit 12 into evidence. THE COURT: Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Subject to my examination, obviously I have no objection. THE COURT: Thank you. Exhibit 12 is admitted in full. (Trustee Exhibit 12 received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: The last exhibit that I intend to show the Trustee, and again, I think I can go through the rest of our exhibits without requiring the Trustee in the witness stand, the next one is Trustee Exhibit 6. If I could please have that pulled up on the screen. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Take your time. And, Trustee Despins, when you're ready, I'm just going to ask you if you recognize this exhibit? A I do. Q And what is this? A It's a certificate of insurance or a declaration page of a policy issued by AIG to Golden Spring with respect to certain luxury cars. Q And how did you obtain or do you know where this policy was obtained from? Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 96 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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97 |\n| 1 | A
Yes, from Wolfson, our broker, or the broker for |\n| 2 | Genever, what we call Genever U.S., because Mr. Linsey, who |\n| 3 | is our counsel in Connecticut, was inquiring about the |\n| 4 | insurance coverage for Genever U.S. |\n| 5 | And the broker produced this and said basically |\n| 6 | Genever U.S. is paying for insurance for these cars.
And |\n| 7 | that's when he started asking, saying how can that be given |\n| 8 | that the name of the insured is Golden Spring?
And that's |\n| 9 | how we got -- that's what they sent us basically. |\n| 10 | Q
Thank you.
And you had mentioned that this was for |\n| 11 | certain luxury automobiles. |\n| 12 | MR. BASSETT:
If you could scroll down to the |\n| 13 | second page of this, please. |\n| 14 | I just want to direct the Court's attention to the |\n| 15 | bottom of the page where it has description of drivers.
The |\n| 16 | second driver there listed is Gerald Scott Barnett.
And |\n| 17 | above that you'll see the automobiles covered according to |\n| 18 | this policy are three different Mercedes, each worth in |\n| 19 | excess of \\$100,000 according to the decreed value stated |\n| 20 | here. |\n| 21 | With that, Your Honor, we would offer Trustee |\n| 22 | Exhibit 6 into evidence. |\n| 23 | THE COURT:
Counsel? |\n| 24 | MR. CONWAY:
No objection. |\n| 25 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 98 of\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 98 Exhibit 6 is admitted in full. MR. BASSETT: Thank you very much, Your Honor. (Trustee Exhibit 6 received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: I now have a couple or a few questions for the Trustee on a related topic. BY MR. BASSETT: Q Mr. Despins, at the beginning of the hearing today we took a look at the affidavit that you filed in this case. And my recollection is that in that affidavit you spent a fair amount of time explaining why you believe the estate will be harmed if there's not an injunction. I just wanted to ask you a few additional questions on that topic. And it's my understanding, Trustee Despins, that some of the relief that you're seeking, there was a dialog about this earlier, is not just to prevent the property from being sold or encumbered, but you are seeking relief that would require people occupying the property to vacate the property, that the mansion be secured, and that the Court authorize the assistance of the U.S. Marshal's Office. And my question for you is why do you believe that that type of relief is necessary? A Well, that's a multi-fold answer, but I would start with what we saw today, which is there's -- there are a number of art pieces, art work, in that -- in that house. So those are not bolted down. They're not -- they can leave\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 99 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
99 |\n| 1 | at, you know, they can be, you know, they can disappear. |\n| 2 | And the testimony, well the testimony, the colloquy between |\n| 3 | the two people doing the visit was that the art work is more |\n| 4 | -- is worth more than the house itself.
That's not |\n| 5 | evidence, but I know that that art work is worth hundreds of |\n| 6 | thousands of dollars, if not millions, because we see that |\n| 7 | from the receipt of the mirrors used in Mei Guo's room and, |\n| 8 | et cetera, et cetera.
So the point is we know there is very |\n| 9 | expensive art work. |\n| 10 | So to say that the house won't be sold and that's |\n| 11 | protection. or people will not dispose of any of those |\n| 12 | assets is, you know, that's a nice statement of intent, but |\n| 13 | practically that's not enforceable.
And let me explain what |\n| 14 | I mean by that. |\n| 15 | The company Taurus, LLC, Taurus Fund, LLC, that's |\n| 16 | a company that was created the day this property was |\n| 17 | acquired.
It doesn't have any other assets as far as we |\n| 18 | know except for the piano, we'll come back to the piano |\n| 19 | later, but it doesn't have any other assets other than the |\n| 20 | Mahwah mansion. |\n| 21 | Our theory of the case is that the Trustee, |\n| 22 | because Mr. Kwok as the owner, or the Trustee, owns that |\n| 23 | property. |\n| 24 | So to have that entity give us some sort of |\n| 25 | commitment or agreement not to do bad things is -- I don't |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 100 want to be rude about this, but it's worthless because that's me giving a representation to myself. Meaning that if they don't do that, if bad things happen, the claim is against that entity whose sole asset is the Mahwah mansion. So it's kind of circular. If there are some individuals that are -- that have money, real money, that are willing to sign a guarantee, personal guarantee, to guarantee the protection of the property, I'm all ears. But to have the company that owns it in theory, when we clearly believe that they don't own it and believe that there's strong evidence that they don't own it, is, you know, doesn't solve the problem. So there are very expensive assets in there that can be removed. The property itself could be damaged. And you have, what we've established here, is there's transient, the people -- it's like a college dorm. People are walking in. And they may have the best of intentions, I don't know that. But I know one thing is that once they know that we're coming after the property, and now they do know, they hadn't known that before, but now they do know that we're coming after the mansion, and if they think that they're going to lose that battle, then it's a different ball game completely, because it's not the same incentive to protect Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 100 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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101 |\n| 1 | their, what they call their sanctuary, because they're very |\n| 2 | likely to lose the sanctuary. |\n| 3 | And those people are not accountable.
We don't |\n| 4 | know who they are.
We don't know who goes in, who goes out, |\n| 5 | what governs that. |\n| 6 | And the fact that Taurus itself, the alleged |\n| 7 | owner, is fighting to give -- to continue to give access to |\n| 8 | all these people tells you everything you need to know. |\n| 9 | Meaning why would -- if the company is owned by |\n| 10 | Warren Buffett, he wouldn't care about who's in the |\n| 11 | property, he would want to protect the property. |\n| 12 | But Taurus wants these people to go in there |\n| 13 | because Taurus is Kwok.
That tells -- you know, that's the |\n| 14 | -- that's the whole premise of this. |\n| 15 | So there's a real risk here.
And we know of |\n| 16 | assets being secreted. |\n| 17 | So you might say the mansion is not going to move |\n| 18 | itself.
Fine.
Could be damaged.
But we know from many |\n| 19 | examples. |\n| 20 | We know recently, and based on what happened in |\n| 21 | the criminal case involving Yvette Wang, and a release on |\n| 22 | bail, that the Government submitted evidence that Ms. Wang |\n| 23 | was giving instructions from jail on how to empty P.O. boxes |\n| 24 | for G Club containing millions of dollars in checks or |\n| 25 | currency.
So that's one item.
So meaning that people will |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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102 |\n| 1 | not hesitate to do things like that. |\n| 2 | Then we know that the, you know, that Ms. Wang |\n| 3 | transferred the title to Ace Decade to a Swiss resident |\n| 4 | because that makes it very hard for us to go and grab that |\n| 5 | asset.
Well, not grab the asset, but to serve that person |\n| 6 | in Switzerland, because all sorts of rules involving |\n| 7 | international service of process in Switzerland. |\n| 8 | We know that the debtor's daughter has, you know, |\n| 9 | sold an airplane during the case that clearly as a 29-year |\n| 10 | old she doesn't own a Bombardier Jet that's worth, you know, |\n| 11 | probably \\$15 million.
She sold it for more than \\$10 |\n| 12 | million.
And when we asked her who holds the funds, the |\n| 13 | only answer is a guy. |\n| 14 | So there's a pattern here that -- and there are |\n| 15 | many other examples throughout the case of assets being |\n| 16 | secreted away. |\n| 17 | And you might say, well, that's Mei Guo, that's |\n| 18 | not them. |\n| 19 | The point is that at this point it's clear that |\n| 20 | they're acting as a team.
And it is incredibly dangerous |\n| 21 | for the estate to maintain this state of play where people |\n| 22 | that are not owners, as far as I know, they're not paying |\n| 23 | rent, they don't have a lease, to have access to this |\n| 24 | property.
It's really -- |\n| 25 | And I'm sure there's other examples of funds being |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 103 of\n\n| | 196
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103 |\n|----|--------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | secreted I'm forgetting, but the point is that there's a |\n| 2 | pattern, there's a huge risk, this is a real asset, there's |\n| 3 | personal property there that's worth millions of dollars, |\n| | |\n| 4 | and with people, again, that are not the owners, that are |\n| 5 | not lessors, that are not paying rent, it's really a bad |\n| 6 | place to be from the point of the estate. |\n| 7 | Q
And we've seen videos earlier today that showed that |\n| 8 | there were representatives of the New Federal State of China |\n| 9 | who were at -- at the house.
Have you had any experience |\n| 10 | with members of the New Federal State of China throughout |\n| 11 | this case previously? |\n| 12 | A
Extensive experience.
And this is not a personal |\n| 13 | issue, but we know that they're acting at the debtor's |\n| 14 | behest because, you know, they came to picket at my house, |\n| 15 | at my daughters' houses, and also there's a whole process. |\n| 16 | For example, the filing of these claims, these, |\n| 17 | what I refer to as the bogus claims, for hundreds of |\n| 18 | millions of dollars that was done to impede the trustee |\n| 19 | process and make sure it would cost a fortune to deal with |\n| 20 | that.
Of course, that's done at the behest of Mr. Kwok. |\n| 21 | And the people who are filing these claims are |\n| 22 | associated with the New Federation of China and so, |\n| 23 | therefore, there is a, you know, it's not speculation, they |\n| 24 | are directly involved in these activities to impede the |\n| 25 | trustee process. |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 104 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|-----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
104 |\n| 1 | Q
So what you just described, those observations and |\n| 2 | experiences that you've had with members of the NFSC in this |\n| 3 | case, based on that, what does that lead you to believe |\n| 4 | about what may happen if they think you are going to prevail |\n| 5 | in this adversary proceeding and obtain ownership and |\n| 6 | control over the Mahwah mansion? |\n| 7 | A
I hesitate to speculate on that.
I just don't.
To me |\n| 8 | it's clear that really bad things could happen, and that |\n| 9 | it's -- the estate could be in a world of hurt if it turns |\n| 10 | out that we own this property and bad things happen to it or |\n| 11 | to its contents. |\n| 12 | And that's why, you know, I know that, for |\n| 13 | example, the use of U.S. Marshals may be perceived as heavy |\n| 14 | handed by some, but the point is that we need to stop this |\n| 15 | complete free access that's going on there because -- forget |\n| 16 | whether there are bad intentions, there's no control.
We |\n| 17 | have no idea who took what or didn't take. |\n| 18 | So I'm not saying that, in fact, other than the |\n| 19 | piano, which apparently disappeared or is missing, I'm not |\n| 20 | saying that they actually stole things.
The point is that |\n| 21 | there's just no control.
There are hundreds of people that |\n| 22 | are there.
There are some exhibits that we haven't gone |\n| 23 | through, but we show people at these events where there's |\n| 24 | hundreds of people in the room.
And god knows what could |\n| 25 | happen. |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 105 of\n\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
105 |\n|---|--------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | Q
Trustee Despins, we talked earlier about some |\n| 2 | communications that you've had with the Department of |\n| 3 | Justice, and I believe also there was a reference in the |\n| 4 | motion for preliminary injunction that you filed to the fact |\n| 5 | that you had been coordinating with the Department of |\n| 6 | Justice on reaching a potential settlement or agreement |\n| 7 | related to the Mahwah mansion, do you have an update on that |\n| 8 | for the Court? |\n\n A Yes. As Your Honor pointed out, there was a filing at 9:55 this morning of a motion to approve a settlement. And we're not seeking approval of that today. And as we pointed out in the motion seeking a TRO and a preliminary injunction, in a footnote somewhere we said that we're having discussions regarding the Mahwah mansion because the Mahwah mansion is on the list of assets that the DOJ is seeking a forfeiture of. They cannot, however, obtain forfeiture today because there's no criminal conviction.\n\n And it was necessary to have a dialog with them about this asset because I didn't want to be in a position where we're doing all this legwork to get the Mahwah mansion, and at the end they say thank you very much, we'll take it from you. And then the estate is out, you know, a lot of money prosecuting this, or obtaining security, and doing all this work to obtain the house. So basically I told them that.\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 106 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|------------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
106 |\n| 1 | And they realized that that was an issue.
And |\n| 2 | they said, well, we cannot have an agreement with the |\n| 3 | Trustee now regarding the final disposition of the Mahwah |\n| 4 | proceeds if there's ever a sale, but we can make sure that, |\n| 5 | one, all the expenses that the Trustee incurs, and it's not |\n| 6 | only Paul Hastings, it's all expenses, security guard, |\n| 7 | insurance, sales broker, again, that's if the Court |\n| 8 | eventually grants the motion to sell the property, but all |\n| 9 | these expenses would be coming off the top of the Mahwah |\n| 10 | property.
So it's certainly worth north of 20 million.
And |\n| 11 | so the estate would be no worse off. |\n| 12 | But on top of that, the DOJ agreed we'd negotiate |\n| 13 | a provision saying that on top of the actual expenses coming |\n| 14 | off the top, there will be a million dollar deemed expense. |\n| 15 | So it's not a -- so it's a deemed expense.
It's on top of |\n| 16 | actual expenses that would come to the estate for the |\n| 17 | benefit of victims of the debtor, victims to be defined |\n| 18 | later in this case. |\n| 19 | So, therefore, the estate is not only not going to |\n| 20 | be exposed for fees and expenses, but also would -- is |\n| 21 | guaranteed a million on top of that. |\n| 22 | But more importantly, that's not a limit. |\n| 23 | There is a -- there's a discussion to be had with |\n| 24 | the DOJ, Your Honor, regarding this property, but other |\n| 25 | assets.
For example, the \\$630 million that's sitting in |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 107 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|--------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Direct - Bassett
107 |\n| 1 | accounts that are frozen. |\n| 2 | As you know from, I forget the name of the case |\n| 3 | that you handled where there was a partner at Zeisler that |\n| 4 | was appointed as the receiver, and I think he was the |\n| 5 | Chapter 11 Trustee as well, or, again, mixing the stories a |\n| 6 | little bit, but the point is that in the past, in cases |\n| 7 | involving fraud, meaning if there's a conviction, the |\n| 8 | Chapter 11 Trustee was authorized by the DOJ to handle the |\n| 9 | distribution of assets to the debtor's creditors pursuant to |\n| 10 | a process to be approved by the bankruptcy court. |\n| 11 | So we're far away from that, but the point to be |\n| 12 | made is that this is a blueprint potentially or a beachhead |\n| 13 | in that direction and, therefore, I wouldn't look at this |\n| 14 | as, oh, we're doing this for a million.
No.
This is an |\n| 15 | attempt to work with them because we believe that the most |\n| 16 | efficient way of handling all of this is through a |\n| 17 | bankruptcy court process where these assets are distributed |\n| | |\n\n to the holders of allowed claims. That's again to be determined who holds an allowed claim and who doesn't. But that's something that would add a lot of value to the estate because you're dealing with a much larger pot.\n\n So the settlement motion, which is not before the Court, I wanted the Court to be aware of it and to be aware that we filed it so that you know that that's happening in the background. It does not deal with the main event at the\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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108 |\n| 1 | end of the case.
It just deals with the issue of this |\n| 2 | property. |\n| 3 | And again, to be clear, there's an agreement with |\n| 4 | the DOJ that they will not interfere with what we're doing |\n| 5 | here with respect to the property.
Because they could have, |\n| 6 | saying, wait a minute, this is an asset in the criminal case |\n| 7 | and we're going to oppose that.
So they are not doing that. |\n| 8 | They've agreed that all expenses will come off the |\n| 9 | top from the sales proceeds if there's a sale.
And they've |\n| 10 | also agreed to a million dollars on top of that that would |\n| 11 | be distributed to victims of the debtor in this case |\n| 12 | pursuant to an order of this court eventually. |\n| 13 | Sorry for the long, but it's important for the |\n| 14 | Court to know that this is going on in the background. |\n| 15 | Q
Thank you. |\n| 16 | MR. BASSETT:
And, Your Honor, there was one other |\n| 17 | exhibit that I meant to show the Trustee earlier.
Subject |\n| 18 | to that, I think I don't have any other questions at this |\n| 19 | time. |\n| 20 | But if I could please have the courtroom deputy |\n| 21 | pull up what's marked as Trustee Exhibit 5. |\n| 22 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 23 | Q
So I'll just note for the record that this document |\n| 24 | appears to be an email chain between you and some attorneys |\n| 25 | at Zeisler & Zeisler, as well as a representative of the |\n| | |\n\nLuc Despins - Direct - Bassett 109 Sherry-Netherland, and somebody from the Struck Law Firm, is that right, Trustee Despins A That's correct. Q It's June 20th, 2023? A Correct. Q And then can you just very, very briefly, what's the -- A Yeah. Q -- what's the context for this email? A So the context is that the debtor had personal effects at the Sherry-Netherland. They wanted -- the family wanted to recover it. And we had no problems with that so we boxed them 21 boxes, or 20, 21, yeah, 21 boxes. And so here Mr. Romney was telling me who would come and pick up these boxes. And it's Mr. Barnett, who's the manager of Taurus, one of the Taurus entities here, who was the driver and bodyguard. He identifies him as security personnel of Mr. Kwok. MR. BASSETT: Yeah. For the record it says Scott Barnett, who worked security for Mr. Kwok at the Sherry, will be picking up the boxes. Your Honor, we would offer Trustee Exhibit 5 into evidence. MR. CONWAY: No objection. THE COURT: Thank you. Exhibit 5 is admitted in full. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 109 of\n\nLuc Despins - Cross - Conway 110 (Trustee Exhibit 5 received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: So, Your Honor, at this point, there may be, I have to go through my list, five or so additional exhibits that we would offer as part of our case in chief, but I don't think I need the witness for that. I think those documents are all self-authenticating. So at this juncture, I've finished with my examination and would offer the witness for any cross- examination. THE COURT: Cross-examination, Counsel? MR. CONWAY: Thank you, Your Honor. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CONWAY: Q Good afternoon. A Good afternoon. Q Let me start from your most previous testimony and work my way back because it's easier for everybody. You mentioned that you had this deal with the DOJ that's in the works where they're going to let you go after this house even though it's a part of their claims in a criminal matter. What did you mean by their claims? A I was using shorthand. It's not part of their claim. There's a criminal prosecution of the debtor and of Ms. Wang and then Mr. Je. As part of that, the DOJ has identified several assets as being subject to forfeiture. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 110 of\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 111 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
111 |\n| 1 | And forfeiture cannot occur until there's a conviction, so |\n| 2 | that's what I meant by part of their claim.
It's not a |\n| 3 | current claim they're prosecuting, but they've identified |\n| 4 | the Mahwah mansion as one of these assets that's subject, |\n| 5 | that would be subject, according to them, to forfeiture. |\n| 6 | Q
And this is something that you've had a conversation |\n| 7 | with these folks at the FBI about? |\n| 8 | A
No.
The U.S. Attorney, U.S. Assistant Attorney. |\n| 9 | Q
Okay. |\n| 10 | A
Yes. |\n| 11 | Q
And did they tell you why the house was part of their |\n| 12 | investigation and a potential forfeiture claim? |\n| 13 | A
Because they think that there's proceeds of fraud |\n| 14 | involved in there. |\n| 15 | Q
What does that mean proceeds of fraud? |\n| 16 | A
Proceeds of Kwok's -- you have to read the indictment, |\n| 17 | but of the fraud that's alleged there, money laundering, |\n| 18 | securities fraud, proceeds of that alleged crime, you know, |\n| 19 | that's their allegation, was used to purchase the property |\n| 20 | and to repair the property and improved it, improve it. |\n| 21 | Q
Okay.
So if I understand you correctly, and tell me if |\n| 22 | I get it wrong, the DOJ believes that the Mahwah mansion, as |\n| 23 | you call it, was purchased and improved with proceeds of |\n| 24 | some sort of a crime where individuals were tricked into |\n| 25 | giving their money for this purpose? |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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112 |\n| 1 | A
I don't know the details.
You have to look at the |\n| 2 | indictment.
But, you know, I think it speaks for itself in |\n| 3 | terms of what they're alleging. |\n| 4 | Q
Okay.
Well, let's -- let me back you up.
I told you I |\n| 5 | was going to start from the end, and I'm going to go right |\n| 6 | back to the beginning. |\n| 7 | You did mention the New Federal State of China and |\n| 8 | you were asked what was it, what did it do, and you said it |\n| 9 | was an organization of Mr. Kwok's. |\n| 10 | Let me ask you again what's your understanding of |\n| 11 | what that entity is? |\n| 12 | A
You used the word entity, I'm not sure -- I'm not sure |\n| 13 | it's a -- I don't think it's a corporation.
It's a -- it's |\n| 14 | an organization of some kind that he started and, you know, |\n| 15 | made various statements about giving it millions of dollars, |\n| 16 | et cetera. |\n| 17 | What it does officially is to combat the Chinese |\n| 18 | Communist Party.
That's their headline.
What it does |\n| 19 | practically may be different than that, meaning that it's |\n| 20 | used to serve his causes, for example, impede the Chapter 11 |\n| 21 | process or harass people that are part of the Chapter 11 |\n| 22 | process. |\n| 23 | Q
The people we saw in some of these videos, and I can't |\n| 24 | imagine you know the content of each video by exhibit |\n| 25 | number, but let me just refer you back to a couple of them |\n| | |\n\nLuc Despins - Cross - Conway 113 that were very similar. I believe it was Exhibits 25 and 26 you saw some people standing behind a table with roses or flowers in their hand, do you recall those videos? A Yes. Q Were those members of the New Federal State of China? A I think they were self-professed members of it, yeah. Q That's what it sounded like. A Yes. Q And they called themselves fellow fighters? A Correct. Q What's a fellow fighter? A You would have to ask them. I assume that it's in the context of fighting the Chinese Communist Party, but I don't know precisely. It's not the label we put on them. They describe themselves as fighters. Q Okay. And that's -- that was sort of a theme in these videos is that the self-proclaimed fellow fighters were grateful to be able to show up at that Mahwah mansion as sort of a base for their operations, is that what you got from those videos? A Well, that's what they want other people giving money to believe, that's correct. Q Okay. When was the last time anybody gave money? A There's money being given as we speak. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 113 of\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 114 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
114 |\n| 1 | Q
How do you know? |\n| 2 | A
Because it's on the internet.
We get -- we get |\n| 3 | informants, not criminal informants, but people who have |\n| 4 | been defrauded saying, look, they're raising money here, |\n| 5 | they're raising money there, for Yvette Wang's defense for |\n| 6 | example.
Or for paying for counsel involved in these cases |\n| 7 | representing satellite entities. |\n| 8 | Q
Okay.
And are you aware of any of that sort of money |\n| 9 | that's been raised by the fellow fighters that was used to |\n| 10 | purchase the Mahwah mansion? |\n| 11 | A
I don't know that. |\n| 12 | Q
What about the articles of property in the Mahwah |\n| 13 | mansion such as the articles that were listed on that piece |\n| 14 | of paper we saw moments ago? |\n| 15 | A
You're asking me whether the fellow fighters bought |\n| 16 | this or paid for it? |\n| 17 | Q
To your knowledge? |\n| 18 | A
Well, I would have strong doubts about that.
Generally |\n| 19 | these folks have very limited means, so that's why we see |\n| 20 | these, through these bank accounts, these hundreds, |\n| 21 | thousands of donations for \\$5,000, \\$2,000, and all that. |\n| 22 | These people are not fortunate.
They don't have a large |\n| 23 | funding.
They can't buy mirrors for \\$250,000. |\n| 24 | Q
Right.
Right.
Now, you, in your complaint, allege |\n| 25 | that the house was purchased by Taurus Fund, LLC, correct? |\n\n| Case 22-50073 | Doc 2118 | Filed 08/24/23 | Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 | Page 115 of |\n|---------------|----------|----------------|---------------------------|-------------|\n|---------------|----------|----------------|---------------------------|-------------|\n\n| | | 196 |\n|----|------|------------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
115 |\n| 1 | A | Well, the title, the alleged title owner, yes.
The |\n| 2 | | formal title owner is Taurus Fund, LLC. |\n| 3 | Q | There's no dispute in your mind to that fact, is there? |\n| 4 | A | No.
I think that's not the full answer, but |\n| 5 | | technically the titleholder is the Taurus Fund, LLC. |\n| 6 | Q | Okay.
And I don't want to keep referring to it without |\n| 7 | | an exhibit.
Give me just a moment here.
Well, I'm going to |\n| 8 | | have to because I don't remember which exhibit was the |\n| 9 | | exhibit with the sort of an invoice for all those pieces of |\n| 10 | art. | You recall that exhibit, correct? |\n| 11 | A | Yes.
Yes. |\n| 12 | Q | And you pointed out in your testimony that that was an |\n| 13 | | invoice that called for delivery to the mansion, correct? |\n| 14 | A | Correct. |\n| 15 | Q | And the purchaser of those goods was Taurus Fund, LLC, |\n| 16 | | correct? |\n| 17 | A | That's what the invoice said. |\n| 18 | Q | Okay.
Let's just get back to the heart of things. |\n| 19 | | You've been working this case for a little while now, right? |\n| 20 | A | A bit, yes. |\n| 21 | Q | Done a lot of investigation? |\n| 22 | A | Yes. |\n| 23 | Q | Spent a lot of attorney time on this? |\n| 24 | A | Yes. |\n| 25 | Q | And your attorneys have investigated a lot of bank |\n| | | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 116 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|--------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
116 |\n| 1 | records relating to this case, right? |\n| 2 | A
We have. |\n| 3 | Q
Okay.
Where did the debtor get the money to buy the |\n| 4 | Mahwah mansion? |\n| 5 | A
First, the debtor had funds before what the DOJ is |\n| 6 | alleging occurred here, meaning the debtor was a billionaire |\n| 7 | based on his investments or transactions in China, so I have |\n| 8 | no doubt that he had the funds to pay for that. |\n| 9 | Q
You have no doubt, but you have no evidence, correct? |\n| 10 | MR. BASSETT:
Objection. |\n| 11 | THE WITNESS:
Okay. |\n| 12 | MR. BASSETT:
That misstates his testimony. |\n| 13 | THE WITNESS:
Well, there are many links here, but |\n| 14 | the indictment sets forth exactly what happened here, |\n| 15 | meaning that there's a -- that his lieutenant, you know, |\n| 16 | William Je, was involved in raising funds for people to |\n| 17 | invest in these G Coins or Himalaya Coins, and that's part |\n| 18 | of the way he got the money. |\n| 19 | But also, I know for a fact that he had billions |\n| 20 | of dollars at one point, based on a lot of evidence that we |\n| 21 | have accumulated to date. |\n| 22 | BY MR. CONWAY: |\n| 23 | Q
Have you done any tracing analysis that shows that the |\n| 24 | funds used to buy this house come from an account owned by |\n| 25 | the debtor? |\n| | |\n\n## Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 117 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
117 |\n| 1 | A
The debtor never owns an account, any account, that's |\n| 2 | not the way it works.
It's always the cousin, the daughter, |\n| 3 | the wife, or William Je, otherwise the debtor could not be a |\n| 4 | debtor.
So that's the way he operates.
You'll never find |\n| 5 | an account with his name on it.
Actually, there was one, |\n| 6 | but in 2015.
But after that he knew he could not get |\n| 7 | accounts.
So that doesn't stop him from owning all these |\n| 8 | assets.
That's the whole point about equitable ownership is |\n| 9 | that he lives there, he enjoys it, he owns it practically, |\n| 10 | but he'll never have title to anything.
That's part of the |\n| 11 | scheme. |\n| 12 | Q
Okay.
Well, let's focus on this Mahwah mansion, the |\n| 13 | subject of this case, because when we talk about the scheme, |\n| 14 | it gets really confusing.
You can sort of say anything's |\n| 15 | part of the scheme. |\n| 16 | I want you to focus on the mansion now.
And we |\n| 17 | heard you testify just moments ago that the Department of |\n| 18 | Justice thinks that the funds that were used to purchase |\n| 19 | that mansion came from victims of the debtor? |\n| 20 | A
For some of the funds.
They're alleging that, that's |\n| 21 | correct. |\n| 22 | Q
Where are the rest of the funds coming from? |\n| 23 | A
Well, I think from the debtor himself. |\n| 24 | Q
Okay. |\n| 25 | A
And as I said, you'll never find a wire transfer from |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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118 |\n| 1 | Kwok to anyone, because that doesn't exist, but it doesn't |\n| 2 | mean that it's not his money. |\n| 3 | Because when you have a driver like -- let's talk |\n| 4 | about the driver being the managing member of this entity. |\n| 5 | How can anyone rationalize that other than it's Kwok's |\n| 6 | asset?
Who would let somebody's driver be in charge of a |\n| 7 | \\$26 million mansion?
The only way that makes sense is if |\n| 8 | the person who the person drives is the owner. |\n| 9 | By the way, that's not the only factor, but that's |\n| 10 | a pretty compelling one. |\n| 11 | Q
Okay.
Well, you know, let's look at that.
Have you -- |\n| 12 | have you seen any evidence or some sort of video like you've |\n| 13 | seen today on the internet that suggests that the -- Mr. |\n| 14 | Kwok or the New Federal State of China is concerned about |\n| 15 | interference from the People's Republic of China and their |\n| 16 | agents? |\n| 17 | MR. BASSETT:
Objection to relevance.
And I think |\n| 18 | it's beyond the scope of the direct.
I don't know what that |\n| 19 | has to do with any of the questions that I asked. |\n| 20 | THE COURT:
I think it is beyond the scope of |\n| 21 | direct, so I'm going to sustain that objection. |\n| 22 | MR. CONWAY:
Your Honor, the witness just said |\n| 23 | that the only rational -- there's no rational reason to have |\n| 24 | Mr. Barnett associated with this property. |\n| 25 | THE COURT:
But you asked a question that had to |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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119 |\n| 1 | do with interference from China, that was your question. |\n| 2 | That has -- we haven't established anything about Mr. |\n| 3 | Barnett, and certainly not that he's somehow connected to |\n| 4 | China. |\n| 5 | So you can ask a different question, but I'm |\n| 6 | sustaining the objection to that question. |\n| 7 | BY MR. CONWAY: |\n| 8 | Q
Is Mr. Barnett listed in these documents you've |\n| 9 | produced here today as security for Mr. Kwok? |\n| 10 | A
So are you asking me whether he's a bodyguard for Mr. |\n| 11 | Kwok? |\n| 12 | Q
I'm asking you whether the documents you've asked the |\n| 13 | judge to look at today show that the reason for him being |\n| 14 | involved here is that he's security for Mr. Kwok? |\n| 15 | A
I'm not sure I understand your question.
He's a |\n| 16 | bodyguard or he was a bodyguard, although he doesn't need a |\n| 17 | bodyguard now because he's in jail, so, but he was the |\n| 18 | security guard.
But what, I'm not sure -- I'm not |\n| 19 | complaining about him being a bodyguard.
I'm just pointing |\n| 20 | out that there's no credibility whatsoever to having a |\n| 21 | bodyguard being the manager of a \\$26 million mansion. |\n| 22 | Q
Well, isn't it true that there was a concern about |\n| 23 | listening devices being placed within the Mahwah mansion? |\n| 24 | A
I know nothing about that. |\n| 25 | Q
Have you investigated it at all? |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 120 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|------------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
120 |\n| 1 | A
That's not my jurisdiction.
Listening devices? |\n| 2 | Q
So you don't know -- you don't know why Mr. Barnett |\n| 3 | would be involved with Mahwah mansion, but you haven't |\n| 4 | investigated the possibility as to why he would be involved |\n| 5 | with the Mahwah mansion.
Is that true? |\n| 6 | A
I will tell you that I'll bet big dollars that he has |\n| 7 | no involvement with that mansion on a daily basis. |\n| 8 | Q
Okay.
And he's not -- I think -- I don't know if you |\n| 9 | meant to testify to this, but you didn't testify that Mr. |\n| 10 | Barnett was an owner of the Mahwah mansion? |\n| 11 | A
No.
He's a managing member of -- actually, he's now a |\n| 12 | trustee because these companies are in default under Nevada |\n| 13 | law.
What happens then is that the managing members become |\n| 14 | the trustee for the -- for it's assets and so he's one of |\n| 15 | the two trustees. |\n| 16 | Q
The Taurus Management, LLC is the manager of the Taurus |\n| 17 | Fund, LLC, isn't that correct? |\n| 18 | A
I forget which one it is, but one of these entities is |\n| 19 | in default.
And by that stated fact, under Nevada law, |\n| 20 | Barnett becomes one of the co-trustees to that, to the |\n| 21 | assets of the company that's in default.
I would have to |\n| 22 | look at the exhibit to figure out which. |\n| 23 | Q
Okay.
It's not necessary to look.
I'm sure within the |\n| 24 | course of this case we'll figure out what Mr. Barnett does. |\n| 25 | But he's not listed anywhere as being a managing member or |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 121 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
121 |\n| 1 | an owner of Taurus Management, LLC, is he? |\n| 2 | A
He's listed -- I mean, we have -- I'm sure the |\n| 3 | documents we filed are accurate on this.
I don't recall |\n| 4 | precisely.
But he is the managing member of one of the |\n| 5 | Taurus entities for sure because we didn't make that up.
I |\n| 6 | mean, that's in the Nevada filing -- filings.
So we looked |\n| 7 | at these.
I'm sure it will be there.
So he's definitely |\n| 8 | involved as a -- as a managing member or now a trustee. |\n| 9 | That's what we've alleged. |\n| 10 | Q
What was the default that occurred in Nevada? |\n| 11 | A
Failure to file some documents or, you know, to update |\n| 12 | documents or something like that. |\n| 13 | Q
Isn't it true it's just a failure to file a couple |\n| 14 | hundred dollar filing fee? |\n| 15 | A
That, I'm not sure that's the case.
I think that there |\n| 16 | was a failure to file annual reports or something along |\n| 17 | those lines. |\n| 18 | Q
Okay.
It doesn't say that on the document you provided |\n| 19 | the judge though, does it?
You want to take another look? |\n| 20 | A
That document does not probably -- doesn't say that, |\n| 21 | but I'm sure in our papers we actually describe exactly what |\n| 22 | happened and why it's been -- why it's in default mode. |\n| 23 | Q
Okay.
So you've indicated that you don't know whether |\n| 24 | or not any of the debtor's money was used to buy this house, |\n| 25 | the Mahwah mansion, correct? |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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122 |\n| 1 | A
No, that's not what I said.
I said that you will never |\n| 2 | be able to show a wire or transfer from any bank account of |\n| 3 | the debtor because the debtor owns nothing.
That's the |\n| 4 | whole scheme. |\n| 5 | Q
And the same is true with the possessions within the |\n| 6 | house, you have no evidence to show that the debtor |\n| 7 | purchased any of those articles, do you? |\n| 8 | A
Well, when the invoice says this is going into Mei's |\n| 9 | room, this is going in the boss's room, that's often how |\n| 10 | they refer to him, as the boss, you know that it's for them. |\n| 11 | It's not for some unnamed New Federation of China people. |\n| 12 | It's for -- this is their house.
This is -- |\n| 13 | Q
Who wrote those notes? |\n| 14 | A
That's on the invoice.
I mean, certainly we didn't |\n| 15 | write the notes.
The FBI didn't write the notes.
So it |\n| 16 | must have been -- this was taken from the Mahwah mansion. |\n| 17 | Q
Do you know who wrote the notes? |\n| 18 | A
No.
I don't know who wrote the notes. |\n| 19 | Q
Now, you've -- you've testified that you've had these |\n| 20 | conversations with the FBI.
You got these photos from the |\n| 21 | FBI.
We've all seen these.
They're now admitted into |\n| 22 | evidence.
And I assume that some of this property was |\n| 23 | determined by the FBI to belong to Mr. Kwok, is that true? |\n| 24 | A
Well, his prescription pills. |\n| 25 | Q
That's a yes or no question. |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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123 | |\n| 1 | A
Yeah.
I would think so.
Yeah.
His driver's license. | |\n| 2 | All the stuff that has his name on it.
That's his family | |\n| 3 | pictures, yeah. | |\n| 4 | Q
I'm not really focused on pieces of paper here. | |\n| 5 | A
Okay. | |\n| 6 | Q
I'm really just saying they found things, property at | |\n| 7 | the location that they think belong to the debtor, correct? | |\n| 8 | A
Well, it's more than that that show that this was his | |\n| 9 | house.
Like the 29 suits with his name embroidered in them. | |\n| 10 | Q
Okay.
Let's focus on those.
I'm trying to get you to | |\n| 11 | answer a yes or no question. | |\n| 12 | A
I'm sorry.
Okay. | |\n| 13 | Q
But we'll focus on the suits if that makes you happy. | |\n| 14 | What happened to those suits after the FBI found those | |\n| 15 | suits? | |\n| 16 | A
I have no idea. | |\n| 17 | Q
Did they inventory them? | |\n| 18 | A
Well, I know they counted them.
What the process is | |\n| 19 | when there's a FBI raid as to what the -- once they're | |\n| 20 | inventoried the property and take these pictures, I don't | |\n| 21 | know what they do.
So, no.
The answer is I don't know | |\n| 22 | whether they took them or left them there. | |\n| 23 | Q
What about the rest of the property that we've seen | |\n| 24 | pictures of that relates to the debtor, did they take them | |\n| 25 | or leave it there? | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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124 |\n| 1 | A
I think that they took cars that were there.
But more |\n| 2 | than that, I'm not sure. |\n| 3 | Q
Did they tell you that they thought that the property, |\n| 4 | not the pieces of paper, but the valuable property that they |\n| 5 | found on the premises was likewise property purchased with |\n| 6 | inappropriate funds? |\n| 7 | A
They haven't said that.
Beyond what's in the |\n| 8 | indictment, so you would have to read what they are saying |\n| 9 | in there, but we haven't had a discussion about actual items |\n| 10 | other than the mansion itself. |\n| 11 | Q
Okay.
Would your answer be the same if I asked you |\n| 12 | about the suits, there's no way of knowing whether Mr. |\n| 13 | Kwok's own money was used to purchase those suits? |\n| 14 | A
It's impossible.
He has no money.
By the way, those |\n| 15 | suits are worth probably five, \\$10,000 each.
So the whole |\n| 16 | point is that you'll never find a bill that -- well, you'll |\n| 17 | find his name all over the place, but he never pays for |\n| 18 | anything directly. |\n| 19 | Q
Now, how often did Mr. Kwok sleep at the Mahwah |\n| 20 | mansion? |\n| 21 | A
We think that based on the video, we just showed you a |\n| 22 | sample, but based on the live streaming that we see with |\n| 23 | these golden columns, he slept there and at the Sherry |\n| 24 | Netherland quite a bit, meaning not -- it was not like once |\n| 25 | every month or something like that. |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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125 |\n| 1 | Q
And for the record, what's the Sherry-Netherland? |\n| 2 | A
That's an apartment in New York City that the debtor |\n| 3 | had the right use. |\n| 4 | Q
And did you determine how often he was there? |\n| 5 | A
Not precisely.
Except we know it from the videos in |\n| 6 | the sense that we know the background now.
We know this is |\n| 7 | the Sherry-Netherland background.
This is the Mahwah |\n| 8 | background.
And he was in both places a lot.
And I would |\n| 9 | say in the Mahwah mansion, you know, there are tons of |\n| 10 | videos of him broadcasting from the room with the golden |\n| 11 | pillars if you will. |\n| 12 | Q
Okay.
You don't know for a fact that he spent the |\n| 13 | night at the location every time he made a video, do you? |\n| 14 | A
Well, based on the stuff that he left behind, I would |\n| 15 | say yes. |\n| 16 | Q
Why? |\n| 17 | A
Because a guy my age doesn't live -- leave his |\n| 18 | prescription drugs in a place where you don't sleep. |\n| 19 | Meaning you don't like go to various places and leave |\n| 20 | prescription drugs there.
That's your home.
That's your |\n| 21 | house. |\n| 22 | Q
So you know -- we know that he was there at least one |\n| 23 | night because he left prescription drugs there? |\n| 24 | A
No.
But it's just not only that, the family pictures, |\n| 25 | everything is -- |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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126 |\n| 1 | Q
That leads you to believe that he spent the night there |\n| 2 | on a regular basis? |\n| 3 | A
Many times.
Meaning who leaves family pictures in a |\n| 4 | hotel?
I mean, if that's the concept that he's there for |\n| 5 | once a month, you don't leave family pictures there.
That's |\n| 6 | in essence of using that place a lot. |\n| 7 | Q
Okay.
Now, did -- what we saw in the videos, the -- |\n| 8 | let's see, I believe it was when we got the translation of |\n| 9 | the clips, we heard that in clip eight of Exhibit 21 there |\n| 10 | was a reference to the fact that G Club owned the house and |\n| 11 | was allowing the fellow fighters to use it. |\n| 12 | A
I don't think I heard G Club owning the house.
They |\n| 13 | mentioned G Club, meaning that people from G Club can come |\n| 14 | and visit the house, but I didn't hear anyone saying G Club |\n| 15 | owned the house. |\n| 16 | Q
Okay. |\n| 17 | A
Maybe you heard that.
I didn't hear that. |\n| 18 | Q
Did you investigate whether G Clubs has any ownership |\n| 19 | interest in the house? |\n| 20 | A
G Club is Kwok.
I mean, that's just -- that would not |\n| 21 | change my views for one bit. |\n| 22 | Q
Yeah.
That's a pretty general statement G Club is |\n| 23 | Kwok.
You know.
So would it change your view if, for |\n| 24 | instance, a reputable third-party company audited every |\n| 25 | dollar that came into G Clubs and determined that Mr. Kwok |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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127 |\n| 1 | was not one that put money into G Clubs? |\n| 2 | A
As I said, he never puts money -- you'll never be able |\n| 3 | to show that he put the money directly.
That's not the way |\n| 4 | this thing works. |\n| 5 | But I'd like to see -- I'd like to see what you're |\n| 6 | talking about.
I'd like to understand what they knew when |\n| 7 | they issued those financial reports if such reports exist. |\n| 8 | Q
Okay.
But generally speaking, the only way we're going |\n| 9 | to figure out whether Mr. Kwok had an ownership interest |\n| 10 | here is if there was some sort of a audit of where the money |\n| 11 | came from, correct? |\n| 12 | A
Well, we just hired a forensic accounting firm that's |\n| 13 | going to do a tracing analysis of all these accounts, so |\n| 14 | eventually we'll have more information on that.
But at the |\n| 15 | end of the day, I don't think it's going to change the |\n| 16 | fundamental premise which is all these satellite companies, |\n| 17 | Golden Spring, G Club, et cetera, it's all governed by Kwok, |\n| 18 | controlled by him, and used for his purposes. |\n| 19 | Q
Well, governing a business doesn't necessarily mean |\n| 20 | that it's his business, does it? |\n| 21 | A
It depends what the -- what the business is used for |\n| 22 | and who gets the profit, who gets to dip in it.
If you get |\n| 23 | to dip in it and buy a jet, well, that would be a form of |\n| 24 | ownership even though you don't own it.
But if the -- if |\n| 25 | that company sends \\$2.5 million in England to buy a jet, and |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 128 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|-----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
128 |\n| 1 | who's using the jet, like the New Federal State of China, |\n| 2 | no.
It's him or his son, et cetera.
So it's -- that's a |\n| 3 | form of ownership.
That's what we have here. |\n| 4 | Q
That's what you have here.
It's essentially he uses |\n| 5 | it, therefore, it's his? |\n| 6 | A
No.
It's not only he uses it.
It's that he controls |\n| 7 | it.
He enjoys -- he controls it.
He enjoys all the |\n| 8 | benefits of it or most of the benefits of it, meaning the |\n| 9 | members of the New Federation of China are not getting |\n| 10 | airplanes.
They're not getting a yacht.
They're not |\n| 11 | getting the apartment, the Sherry-Netherland.
Only he gets |\n| 12 | that.
So that's -- and the lifestyle is millions of dollars |\n| 13 | a year.
That money gets taken out.
So that's a form of |\n| 14 | ownership, not legal ownership, but he's able to dip into |\n| 15 | those companies and use those funds to buy a house, or to |\n| 16 | buy cars, to buy, you know, \\$5,000 cigars.
That's a form of |\n| 17 | ownership. |\n| 18 | Q
I didn't know they -- |\n| 19 | A
Equitable ownership. |\n| 20 | Q
I didn't know they had \\$5,000 cigars. |\n| 21 | A
I didn't know either, but that's what he says that |\n| 22 | they're worth. |\n| 23 | Q
So again, let's focus on the asset here -- |\n| 24 | A
Yes. |\n| 25 | Q
-- because I don't know anything about all those other |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 129 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|-----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
129 |\n| 1 | assets you're referring to.
I'm only focusing on the Mahwah |\n| 2 | mansion.
Twenty-one bedrooms, correct? |\n| 3 | A
I think that's correct, but I don't -- I don't know if |\n| 4 | it's 21 or 22. |\n| 5 | Q
Call it approximately. |\n| 6 | A
Lots of bedrooms. |\n| 7 | Q
Okay. |\n| 8 | A
You know. |\n| 9 | Q
If anybody else spends a night there, are they the |\n| 10 | owner? |\n| 11 | A
No.
No. |\n| 12 | Q
But he is because he spent the night there? |\n| 13 | A
If that were the only factor, I would say, no, that's |\n| 14 | wrong.
But the -- he controls the asset. |\n| 15 | I don't know if you noticed, but the New |\n| 16 | Federation of China didn't have access to that house until |\n| 17 | he went to jail.
At that point, he can just leave the |\n| 18 | building empty or tell his followers I bought this for you. |\n| 19 | This is all for you. |\n| 20 | So the point is that before that, there was not |\n| 21 | like -- there were not hundreds of people traipsing in and |\n| 22 | out.
I guarantee you that.
He has bodyguards.
He would |\n| 23 | not allow all these hundreds of people to go in and out of |\n| 24 | the building.
So it's not only that he slept there, it was |\n| 25 | his house before he went to jail. |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 130 of\n\n| | 196
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130 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | Q
Well, I think we've seen in your exhibits that the |\n| 2 | house cost \\$28 million, correct? |\n| 3 | A
That's correct. |\n| 4 | Q
And there's been about \\$17 million worth of |\n| 5 | renovations, correct? |\n| 6 | A
It's something like that.
But that, I don't know |\n| 7 | precisely the amount of the improvements. |\n| 8 | Q
Okay.
In the video that we saw at the outset today, |\n| 9 | Exhibit 21, they make repeated reference to the fact that it |\n| 10 | still wasn't ready.
It was still being refurbished, |\n| 11 | correct? |\n| 12 | A
Mm-hmm.
That's so they can explain to people why they |\n| 13 | cannot all come. |\n| 14 | Q
Well, when it was -- the refurbishment were completed, |\n| 15 | that's when people started coming, correct? |\n| 16 | A
They'll never be completely refurbished, because that |\n| 17 | way -- remember that he explained that there will be a plan. |\n| 18 | We will tell you when you can come.
Send more money, then |\n| 19 | you can come.
And that's the way these things work. |\n| 20 | Q
Well, you say that, send more money and then you can |\n| 21 | come, but the fact of the matter is that the money that was |\n| 22 | collected from these defrauded folks that the DOJ's |\n| 23 | supposedly protecting, that was collected years ago, wasn't |\n| 24 | it? |\n| 25 | A
Define years ago. |\n| | |\n\n| Case 22-50073
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131 | |\n| 1 | Q
Within the last two years? | |\n| 2 | A
Well, that's not years ago. | |\n| 3 | Q
Two years? | |\n| 4 | A
Yes.
Which portion are we talking about, the G Club, | |\n| 5 | the Himalaya Coins, or other schemes? | |\n| 6 | Q
Only focusing on this house, the money used for this | |\n| 7 | house? | |\n| 8 | A
Yes. | |\n| 9 | Q
That money was collected obviously before the house was | |\n| 10 | purchased, correct? | |\n| 11 | A
Well, yeah.
But again, there's an assumption that the | |\n| 12 | full amount was collected from these people.
Some money he | |\n| 13 | already controlled through other sources. | |\n| 14 | Q
Okay.
And frankly, you're the Trustee here, so let me | |\n| 15 | just come right out and ask you, it's really the judge's | |\n| 16 | call, but let me ask you, if you saw a piece of paper that | |\n| 17 | showed you where the money came from and all came from one | |\n| 18 | source, would that satisfy you, or is there nothing that | |\n| 19 | could satisfy you that the money didn't come from the | |\n| 20 | debtor? | |\n| 21 | A
That's a fair question.
I would tell you let's not be | |\n| 22 | naive in the sense that there are a lot of people who can | |\n| 23 | act as fronts to pay and make it look legit.
It doesn't | |\n| 24 | mean that you stop there.
You have to understand where did | |\n| 25 | they get the money?
It depends.
I'd like to understand the | |\n| | | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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132 |\n| 1 | history of that company. |\n| 2 | I know a company was created the day of the |\n| 3 | closing.
Okay.
So that company didn't have a past.
So |\n| 4 | we'd like to understand where did the money come from? |\n| 5 | And that company that provided the money or the |\n| 6 | people, I'd like to understand how they got money?
And so |\n| 7 | you can't really -- you always have to scratch below the |\n| 8 | next level. |\n| 9 | I understand you're going to say, well, when do |\n| 10 | you stop?
That's a good question. |\n| 11 | But I think we know enough here to know that these |\n| 12 | transfers are going fast and furious every day for thousands |\n| 13 | and thousands of dollars with bank accounts being opened, |\n| 14 | closed, all the time.
All the time.
We know -- we know |\n| 15 | much more now about the transfer to pay law firms, how they |\n| 16 | pay them.
How some companies that sold property that they |\n| 17 | shouldn't have sold.
That money went to law firms involved |\n| 18 | in this case and all that.
We just know a lot more now. |\n| 19 | So you have to -- I have to apologize for my |\n| 20 | degree of skepticism, but I would want to understand the |\n| 21 | full picture before telling you it's okay. |\n| 22 | Q
Fair enough.
And I think that's what we're here for. |\n| 23 | We're trying to show the judge the full picture before |\n| 24 | anybody takes anybody's property away. |\n| 25 | A
Well, we're not -- this is not about taking the |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 133 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|------------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
133 |\n| 1 | property.
This is about protecting the property right now. |\n| 2 | Any owner should be happy with what we're trying to do, |\n| 3 | which is to protect the property.
Nobody goes there.
There |\n| 4 | are security guards there.
The property is safe.
That |\n| 5 | should be a goal that anyone shares. |\n| 6 | Q
Right.
The testimony you gave just a moment ago sort |\n| 7 | of -- there was some sort of an inference that because the |\n| 8 | Nevada corporation was formed the day of the real estate |\n| 9 | transfer, that there was something nefarious.
You don't |\n| 10 | mean to say there was something nefarious about that, did |\n| 11 | you? |\n| 12 | A
No.
What I mean by that is there's no history in there |\n| 13 | and it's hard to believe it has other assets.
It goes back |\n| 14 | to the point I made about having that entity give me an |\n| 15 | assurance that they won't do anything wrong doesn't get me |\n| 16 | where I need to be to protect the estate. |\n| 17 | Q
You've been doing this a long time.
You know that LLCs |\n| 18 | are crated for the purposes of purchasing real estate -- |\n| 19 | A
Sure. |\n| 20 | Q
-- all the time? |\n| 21 | A
Sure.
I'm not -- there's no point about -- the point |\n| 22 | there is that there's no track record of an entity with |\n| 23 | other assets that could -- you know, if there's -- as I |\n| 24 | said, if somebody wants to stand behind what happens to the |\n| 25 | property from now until there's a ruling in this case, I'm |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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134 |\n| 1 | all ears.
But a real party with real money, not a company |\n| 2 | that we think we own. |\n| 3 | Q
And before I get off those videos, again, without |\n| 4 | trying to make you remember which video goes with which |\n| 5 | exhibit number, there were -- there were approximately four, |\n| 6 | it appeared to me anyway, four videos relating to events |\n| 7 | that took place at the Mahwah mansion, not including the |\n| 8 | live streams of Mr. Kwok, just the events.
Was that -- was |\n| 9 | that your understanding, because you produced this? |\n| 10 | A
Yeah.
Yes. |\n| 11 | Q
Okay.
And do you recall what those events were for? |\n| 12 | A
Yeah.
They're fundraisers essentially without calling |\n| 13 | it a fundraiser.
It was the third or fourth-year |\n| 14 | anniversary of the New Federation of China.
So they bring |\n| 15 | Bannon there.
They bring Santos.
And they make speeches |\n| 16 | and ask people to send more money because Brother Guo was in |\n| 17 | jail.
We need to help him. |\n| 18 | Q
Okay.
So that's not an everyday occurrence.
Those |\n| 19 | were actual events where those videos were taken? |\n| 20 | A
Yes.
But there's an implication that other days |\n| 21 | there's nobody in the property, that's not right. |\n| 22 | Q
I wouldn't suggest that.
My point is that the, and |\n| 23 | forgive me, I'm so new to the case, I have to keep looking, |\n| 24 | the New Federal State of China, they've only had, from what |\n| 25 | we can see here, four events, you know, formal events, that |\n\n#### Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 135 of\n\n| | 196 | | | | | | | |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
135 | | | | | | | |\n| 1 | you're aware of and got videos relating to all? | | | | | | | |\n| 2 | A
No.
I know they live stream from there all the time. | | | | | | | |\n| 3 | At least once a week on Saturdays, so that means that people | | | | | | | |\n| 4 | go in.
The people that we saw, the, quote/unquote, | | | | | | | |\n| 5 | \"Journalists,\" the ten journalists that are there.
The | | | | | | | |\n| 6 | video people and all that.
So there's -- there are many | | | | | | | |\n| 7 | activities. | | | | | | | |\n| 8 | And remember, in these things, they are inviting | | | | | | | |\n| 9 | the followers to come and visit, so that there's just no | | | | | | | |\n| 10 | control over what -- who goes in there. | | | | | | | |\n| 11 | Q
Yeah.
And I promised you I'd get to the live stream | | | | | | | |\n| 12 | separately, but the event videos, those were -- those were | | | | | | | |\n| 13 | only four events, large events, that you're aware of during | | | | | | | |\n| 14 | the past year, correct? | | | | | | | |\n| 15 | A
Well, first of all, these are all taken post March | | | | | | | |\n| 16 | 15th, so that's -- that's a very short track record of four | | | | | | | |\n| 17 | events since March 15th.
Big events?
Yes. | | | | | | | |\n| 18 | But I know that there's live streaming that goes | | | | | | | |\n| 19 | on all the time.
I know George Santos was there with a | | | | | | | |\n| 20 | bunch of people.
So there's this constant flow of people | | | | | | | |\n| 21 | going in there. | | | | | | | |\n| 22 | So I would hesitate to say four events only.
I | | | | | | | |\n| 23 | don't think I can say that. | | | | | | | |\n| 24 | Q
But you can't say there was more? | | | | | | | |\n| 25 | A
Well, I know Santos was there.
I know they live stream | | | | | | | |\n| | | | | | | | | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 136 of\n\n| | 196 | | | | | | | |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
136 | | | | | | | |\n| 1 | at least once or twice a week from there.
So that involves | | | | | | | |\n| 2 | a bunch of people. | | | | | | | |\n| 3 | Q
Okay.
And the live streaming that took place after Mr. | | | | | | | |\n| 4 | Kwok was incarcerated, who does that live streaming? | | | | | | | |\n| 5 | A
You know, it's the federation people and GETTR, | | | | | | | |\n| 6 | probably GETTR, or people affiliated with them, or some HCHK | | | | | | | |\n| 7 | people, or ex-HCHK people.
So that's -- that's not like a | | | | | | | |\n| 8 | company like HBO who does this.
It's a -- it's the same | | | | | | | |\n| 9 | group that does this. | | | | | | | |\n| 10 | Q
But you know that these events are happening because | | | | | | | |\n| 11 | you see them on GETTR? | | | | | | | |\n| 12 | A
Yeah.
We see them.
I know that Ms. Song monitors | | | | | | | |\n| 13 | those and she sees them and gives us reports periodically | | | | | | | |\n| 14 | about what is being said there and who's there, et cetera, | | | | | | | |\n| 15 | et cetera. | | | | | | | |\n| 16 | Q
Okay.
And about how many of those events have occurred | | | | | | | |\n| 17 | on the premises since the incarceration of Mr. Kwok? | | | | | | | |\n| 18 | A
I think at least two a week, plus the other events. | | | | | | | |\n| 19 | And again, as I said, I don't know and I don't | | | | | | | |\n| 20 | think that the mansion is closed.
Many people show up there | | | | | | | |\n| 21 | and get in maybe.
Every time they have a live stream, I | | | | | | | |\n| 22 | shouldn't say every time, often when they have a live | | | | | | | |\n| 23 | stream, there's a new guest, somebody who just stopped by | | | | | | | |\n| 24 | from Kansas or from Florida.
So there are people getting in | | | | | | | |\n| 25 | there all the time. | | | | | | | |\n| | | | | | | | | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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137 |\n| 1 | Q
Are you aware of the purpose of G Clubs? |\n| 2 | A
The legitimate purpose of G Club?
In theory, it's to |\n| 3 | sell clothes. |\n| 4 | Q
To sell clothes? |\n| 5 | A
Well, to sell fashion, you know, G Fashion, G Club. |\n| 6 | There's also the -- the aspect of G Club which is to give |\n| 7 | access to people to events or things like that. |\n| 8 | Q
Or to show their 9,000 members what it's like to be in |\n| 9 | a free, democratic society and have possessions? |\n| 10 | A
No.
There's a cynical answer to that, but I'm not |\n| 11 | going to go there.
I don't know what the -- if that's the |\n| 12 | purpose of G Club, I don't know if that's really the purpose |\n| 13 | of G Club. |\n| 14 | Q
Okay.
So I just want to focus you back really to where |\n| 15 | we started, you and I, this afternoon.
You talked about the |\n| 16 | FBI going to the mansion and finding some property there. |\n| 17 | And we talked about the vehicles.
You thought the vehicles |\n| 18 | were taken by the FBI? |\n| 19 | A
Yes. |\n| 20 | Q
Okay.
And do you know where they are now? |\n| 21 | A
No. |\n| 22 | Q
Okay.
I'm really more focused on, again, what is your |\n| 23 | understanding from your conversations with the U.S. |\n| 24 | Attorney's Office about who the debtor's victims are with |\n| 25 | respect to the Mahwah mansion? |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 138 of\n\n| | 196 | | | | | | | |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
138 | | | | | | | |\n| 1 | MR. BASSETT:
Objection.
I think we covered this | | | | | | | |\n| 2 | previously, and the witness already answered these questions | | | | | | | |\n| 3 | and testified to this topic. | | | | | | | |\n| 4 | THE COURT:
I'm going to allow the question and | | | | | | | |\n| 5 | overrule the objection. | | | | | | | |\n| 6 | THE WITNESS:
So can you repeat the question? | | | | | | | |\n| 7 | BY MR. CONWAY: | | | | | | | |\n| 8 | Q
Without getting into the prefatory -- | | | | | | | |\n| 9 | A
Yes. | | | | | | | |\n| 10 | Q
-- what is your understanding after you've had your | | | | | | | |\n| 11 | conversations with the U.S. Attorney's Office about who the | | | | | | | |\n| 12 | victims are with respect to the Mahwah mansion? | | | | | | | |\n| 13 | A
Well, there's -- you're conflating two things here. | | | | | | | |\n| 14 | The Mahwah mansion is a target of a forfeiture, a future | | | | | | | |\n| 15 | forfeiture proceeding.
But I'm not sure that you have to | | | | | | | |\n| 16 | have victims with respect to the Mahwah mansion to get | | | | | | | |\n| 17 | there, meaning that there may be victims of crimes.
And if | | | | | | | |\n| 18 | the proceeds are used to buy part of the Mahwah mansion, | | | | | | | |\n| 19 | then they can seek forfeiture.
So when you ask me victims | | | | | | | |\n| 20 | of the Mahwah mansion, I'm not sure I can testify to that. | | | | | | | |\n| 21 | Q
Can you testify to anything about what -- who may be a | | | | | | | |\n| 22 | victim of the debtor where the monies that were obtained | | | | | | | |\n| 23 | from these victims ended up being used to purchase the | | | | | | | |\n| 24 | Mahwah mansion? | | | | | | | |\n| 25 | A
As I said, that's the Government's theory for | | | | | | | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 139 of\n\nLuc Despins - Cross - Conway 139 forfeiture. I don't need to prove that. I just need to prove that it's equitably owned by Kwok. Q I've asked you something specific. Are you aware of there being any victims who somebody, whether it's the Government or you, alleges gave their money, and that money was obtained for some sort of fraud, and then used to purchase the Mahwah mansion? A Well, there -- MR. BASSETT: I'm just going to lodge a relevance objection, Your Honor. I mean, this is not -- this is not a criminal case. We're not trying to prove victims. We're trying to prove ownership of the home. THE COURT: Your response, Counsel? MR. CONWAY: We're having -- we can't have it both ways, Your Honor. Either there's some sort of a victim here and Mr. Kwok somehow got their money and purchased the mansion, or somebody else purchased the mansion and Mr. Kwok doesn't own it. So I'm asking -- I'm giving the Trustee an opportunity to come out and say, yeah, I think that the monies that belong to somebody else were used, but they were swindled from them by Mr. Kwok. And if so, who were they? THE COURT: Well, there's an objection pending, so you just asked a second question. MR. CONWAY: Well, I --\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 140 of\n\nLuc Despins - Cross - Conway 140 THE COURT: But there's an objection pending to the first question, which is you said who are the victims, right? Isn't that your question? Who are the victims? MR. CONWAY: There's a lot more prefatory language, but it was something along those lines, yes. THE COURT: Okay. And, Mr. Bassett, your objection is that it -- you're talking -- that the question is irrelevant because it goes to the criminal proceeding? MR. BASSETT: My objection is that it is not an issue in this adversary proceeding who the, quote/unquote, \"Victims\" -- THE COURT: I think Mr. Despins already answered that, that was the last answer he gave. So I guess I'm not sure what your question is, Counsel, insofar as in addition to what Mr. -- Mr. Despins, I think I just heard him say that I don't need to prove what the Government needs to prove. I just need to prove that it's an asset of this estate somehow. I think that's what he said. And so I'll let you ask the question one more time, but I'm not sure if I understand what your question is. I think I understand it, but I'm not sure I do. So why don't you try it one more time. MR. CONWAY: I'll rephrase the question, Your Honor.\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 141 of\n\n| | 196 | | | | | | | |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|\n| | Luc Despins - Cross - Conway
141 | | | | | | | |\n| 1 | BY MR. CONWAY: | | | | | | | |\n| 2 | Q
And the theory here, and I apologize, this question is | | | | | | | |\n| 3 | prefatory and rehashes what we've been over, but it seems | | | | | | | |\n| 4 | necessary at this point.
The theory here is that this house | | | | | | | |\n| 5 | belongs to the debtor or the debtor's estate, correct? | | | | | | | |\n| 6 | A
Correct. | | | | | | | |\n| 7 | Q
But you don't have any evidence as to where the debtor | | | | | | | |\n| 8 | got the money to purchase this house, do you? | | | | | | | |\n| 9 | A
No.
We have evidence from the indictment.
And also, | | | | | | | |\n| 10 | as I told you, the debtor had billions of dollars before | | | | | | | |\n| 11 | these very schemes were started.
So we have no doubt that | | | | | | | |\n| 12 | the debtor, the debtor's, you know, funded this directly or | | | | | | | |\n| 13 | indirectly. | | | | | | | |\n| 14 | But as I told you, you can never prove that | | | | | | | |\n| 15 | there's a bank account that has his name on it that made the | | | | | | | |\n| 16 | transfer.
So if you're asking me that, I cannot prove that. | | | | | | | |\n| 17 | But I am sure that it's -- he controls the funds that went | | | | | | | |\n| 18 | in there and that he owns them because he has access to them | | | | | | | |\n| 19 | and he's using them. | | | | | | | |\n| 20 | So I -- that's, I think that's -- I'm repeating | | | | | | | |\n| 21 | myself, but that's really the point. | | | | | | | |\n| 22 | Q
Okay.
And so if, in fact, in this case, if you're | | | | | | | |\n| 23 | shown evidence of where the funds came from, and it's not | | | | | | | |\n| 24 | from a debtor controlled account, does that mean that it has | | | | | | | |\n| 25 | to come from a victim? | | | | | | | |\n| | | | | | | | | |\n\nLuc Despins - Redirect - Bassett 142 MR. BASSETT: Objection. I don't even understand the question or its relevance. THE COURT: I understand. I think -- I think Mr. Despins can answer that question actually. I'm going to overrule your objection. THE WITNESS: So the question is if it doesn't come from a debtor controlled account, controlled defined loosely because he never actually has documented control -- BY MR. CONWAY: Q I'll take your word for that. A -- at least that's our view of the world at this point, does that mean it comes from a victim? Probably. Probably. MR. CONWAY: Okay. I think I'm done for the moment, Your Honor. THE COURT: You're done with this witness until -- MR. CONWAY: This witness. THE COURT: We're going to redirect, Counsel? MR. CONWAY: I assume there will be, so. THE COURT: Right. Okay. That's fine. Thank you. Mr. Bassett? MR. BASSETT: Thank you, Your Honor. Again, Your Honor, Nick Bassett from Paul Hastings on behalf of the Trustee. Just a few questions on redirect. I hope to be fairly brief. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 142 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073 | Doc 2118
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196 | |\n|----|---------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----|\n| | | Luc Despins - Redirect - Bassett | 143 |\n| 1 | | REDIRECT EXAMINATION | |\n| 2 | | BY MR. BASSETT: | |\n| 3 | Q | Trustee Despins, you were asked some questions during | |\n| 4 | | cross-examination about what you had or had not learned in | |\n| 5 | | your investigation about sources of funding of the home, et | |\n| 6 | | cetera.
When were you appointed as Trustee in this case? | |\n| 7 | A | In July of last year. | |\n| 8 | Q | And you've been conducting an investigation since then. | |\n| 9 | | But when did you first become aware of the Mahwah mansion? | |\n| 10 | A | On March 15th I'm embarrassed to say. | |\n| 11 | Q | How did you become aware of it on March 15th? | |\n| 12 | A | Because we saw the indictment.
We had had no idea | |\n| 13 | | before then. | |\n| 14 | Q | So at this point in the case, have you finished your | |\n| 15 | | investigation into the Mahwah mansion, including how it was | |\n| 16 | | acquired and all the other facts that may be relevant to | |\n| 17 | | this adversary proceeding? | |\n| 18 | A | No.
It's ongoing. | |\n| 19 | Q | Do you intend to seek discovery as part of this | |\n| 20 | | adversary proceeding? | |\n| 21 | A | Absolutely. | |\n| 22 | Q | Now, is it your understanding that the FBI has | |\n| 23 | | conducted an investigation of the debtor and his affairs | |\n| 24 | | including the Mahwah mansion? | |\n| 25 | A | Yes, they have. | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073 | Doc 2118
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144 |\n| 1 | Q | And when did they file the indictment? |\n| 2 | A | It became public on March 15th, but I -- they may have |\n| 3 | | filed it before.
But I'm not on top of that, but around |\n| 4 | | that time. |\n| 5 | Q | And you mentioned during your cross-examination that |\n| 6 | | you understand that in the indictment the Department of |\n| 7 | | Justice has alleged that the Mahwah mansion was purchased |\n| 8 | | with proceeds of fraudulent conduct by the debtor? |\n| 9 | A | Correct. |\n| 10 | Q | That occurred after the FBI completed their |\n| 11 | | investigation? |\n| 12 | A | That's correct. |\n| 13 | Q | Do you have all of the documents and information from |\n| 14 | | the FBI and the DOJ that that they obtained in their |\n| 15 | | investigation? |\n| 16 | A | No.
The debtor has been resisting providing us that, |\n| 17 | | so we're trying to get that. |\n| 18 | Q | Have you gotten any discovery at all of documents that, |\n| 19 | | aside from these pictures that we saw today, that relate to |\n| 20 | | the Government's investigation that they conducted prior to |\n| 21 | | the indictment? |\n| 22 | A | No. |\n| 23 | Q | You were asked some questions about the managers or |\n| 24 | | members of Taurus Fund, LLC, do you recall that? |\n| 25 | A | Yes. |\n| | | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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145 |\n| 1 | Q
I'd like you take a look at Trustee Exhibit 3 if you |\n| 2 | could. |\n| 3 | MR. BASSETT:
And if we could please have that |\n| 4 | pulled up on the screen.
If you could scroll down. |\n| 5 | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 6 | Q
And, Trustee Despins, do you recognize this as a |\n| 7 | document obtained from the State of Nevada Office of the |\n| 8 | Secretary of State as the document appears to indicate? |\n| 9 | A
Yes, I do. |\n| 10 | Q
And if you go to, it would be the fourth page of this |\n| 11 | document, so four pages down, sorry, next page, on this |\n| 12 | page, it says formation limited liability company and then |\n| 13 | there's a checkmark next to articles of organization, do you |\n| 14 | see that? |\n| 15 | A
Yes. |\n| 16 | Q
Then the name being registered in Nevada, the Taurus |\n| 17 | Fund, LLC, do you see that? |\n| 18 | A
Yes. |\n| 19 | Q
Taurus Fund, LLC, that's the defendant and the nominal |\n| 20 | owner of the Mahwah mansion, correct? |\n| 21 | A
That's correct. |\n| 22 | Q
Now, if you go down further, sorry, sorry, just the |\n| 23 | bottom of that last page, where it says number six, it says |\n| 24 | name and address of each manager or managing member, do you |\n| 25 | see that? |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 146 of\n\n| | 196
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Yes. | |\n| 2 | Q
Then there are two names listed in the box to the | |\n| 3 | right, can you list those off for the Court? | |\n| 4 | A
Yeah.
Taurus Management, LLC and Scott Barnett. | |\n| 5 | Q
And Scott Barnett's the individual that you were | |\n| 6 | questioned about during cross-examination, right? | |\n| 7 | A
Correct. | |\n| 8 | Q
All right.
If you go to the next page of the document, | |\n| 9 | please, this page of the limited liability company formation | |\n| 10 | form has a spot in box 12 for the name and signature of | |\n| 11 | manager or member, do you see that? | |\n| 12 | A
Yeah. | |\n| 13 | Q
And whose -- whose signature and name appear there? | |\n| 14 | A
Scott Barnett again. | |\n| 15 | MR. BASSETT:
Your Honor, I would at this point | |\n| 16 | offer Trustee's Exhibit 3.
This is a document that I think | |\n| 17 | is self-authenticating so I was going to do it separately, | |\n| 18 | but because it came up during cross-examination, I would | |\n| 19 | offer it at this time into evidence. | |\n| 20 | THE COURT:
Counsel? | |\n| 21 | MR. CONWAY:
No objection. | |\n| 22 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. | |\n| 23 | Exhibit 3 is admitted in full. | |\n| 24 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. | |\n| 25 | (Trustee's Exhibit 3 received in evidence) | |\n| | | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073 | Doc 2118
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147 |\n| 1 | | BY MR. BASSETT: |\n| 2 | Q | And do you have copy of the pleadings binder there in |\n| 3 | | front of you, Mr. Despins?
It should be the one that says |\n| 4 | -- | |\n| 5 | A | Power papers? |\n| 6 | Q | Power papers.
There you go. |\n| 7 | A | Yes. |\n| 8 | Q | And there should be an index in the front that has a |\n| 9 | | reference to the complaint, do you see that? |\n| 10 | A | Yes. |\n| 11 | Q | Could you turn to that document for me? |\n| 12 | A | Yes. |\n| 13 | Q | Before I direct you to a particular paragraph in the |\n| 14 | | document, do you recall you were asked some questions during |\n| 15 | | cross-examination about exactly what had happened that, as |\n| 16 | | you testified, led to the managers of Taurus Fund, LLC |\n| 17 | | becoming trustees? |\n| 18 | A | Yes. |\n| 19 | Q | If you could turn to paragraph 31 of the complaint, |\n| 20 | | this is on page 10. |\n| 21 | A | Yes. |\n| 22 | Q | And it says there, under Nevada revised statute |\n| 23 | | annotated section 86.2632, Taurus Fund's annual list of |\n| 24 | | information was due on December 31st, 2022.
Because it |\n| 25 | | failed to timely file, Taurus Fund is deemed in default |\n\nLuc Despins - Redirect - Bassett 148 under Nevada law. Do you see that. A Yes. Q Is that your understanding as to how the entity became to be in default -- A Yes. Q -- and thus managers were converted into trustees? A Yeah. That's my recollection. Yeah. Yes. Q Trustee Despins, you were also asked some questions about G Club and its potential relationship between funds raised through G Club and the Mahwah mansion, and I think counsel had asked you whether you thought that those were all in the past couple of years, but do you have an understanding sitting here today whether or not G Club remains an active vehicle? A No. I think it's defunct. Q Have you heard of G Club premier members? A Vaguely, yes. Q Do you have any idea what those -- what those members -- what that's about? A Yeah. They paid more and they were promised something, but I'm not sure they got it. Q And you mentioned G Club was, you said, defunct. We've had discovery in this case where you sought documents from G Club, do you recall that. A Yes. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 148 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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149 |\n| 1 | Q
And recently, have you had a dispute about trying to |\n| 2 | get documents from G Club? |\n| 3 | A
Sure.
And as the Court is aware, this is a hot issue |\n| 4 | in the HCHK adversary proceeding where we wanted these |\n| 5 | documents through HCHK and G Club was attempting to resist |\n| 6 | that. |\n| 7 | Q
And do you recall -- do you recall as part of that |\n| 8 | discovery that went on, one of the issues being that there |\n| 9 | was a change in leadership of G Club? |\n| 10 | A
Yes.
They appointed an independent manager or |\n| 11 | something like that.
Yeah. |\n| 12 | Q
Because the prior managers left? |\n| 13 | A
Had all resigned.
Yeah. |\n| 14 | Q
And when -- do you know when that happened?
Was it |\n| 15 | before or after the debtor's indictment? |\n| 16 | A
After the indictment. |\n| 17 | MR. BASSETT:
No further questions, Your Honor. |\n| 18 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| 19 | Any recross, Counsel? |\n| 20 | MR. CONWAY:
Not based on that, Your Honor. |\n| 21 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. |\n| 22 | All right.
You can step down, Mr. Despins.
Thank |\n| 23 | you. |\n| 24 | (Witness excused) |\n| 25 | THE COURT:
Mr. Bassett? |\n| | |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 150 MR. BASSETT: Yes, Your Honor. So, Your Honor, as promised, at this time, there are just a few additional exhibits that we have not yet introduced into the record that I don't think I need the Trustee for. I'll just try to make sure I have a comprehensive list of which ones I've already got, of which ones already came into the record. So, Your Honor, on the Trustee's Exhibit List, and we can pull these up and look at them if we need to, we don't have to, I think to the extent that they prove relevant to the arguments that we're going to be making at closing, my colleague, Mr. Luft, will address that, but the first exhibit on the exhibit list that we would like to have put in the record, really by way of sort of housekeeping and just good order, is the Trustee's Certificate of Service for serving the temporary restraining order on the defendants. That appears at Trustee Exhibit 1. I'm not going to, you know, direct the Court to any particular parts of it. It's already filed on the ECF docket, but, again, we'd like that to be part of the record and, therefore, would ask that that certificate of service at Trustee Exhibit 1 be admitted into evidence. THE COURT: Counsel? MR. CONWAY: No objection. THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 150 of\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 151 MR. BASSETT: Thank you, Your Honor. Trustee's Exhibit 1 is admitted in full. (Trustee's Exhibit 1 received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: The next exhibit is Trustee Exhibit 2, which we had not yet addressed. If I could have that exhibit pulled up on the screen, please. This document at Trustee Exhibit 2, Your Honor, I believe also is -- it's self-evident what it is and it's a self-authenticating document. This is a copy of the file containing the deed that was pulled from the Bergen County Office and it has the seal listed there. If you scroll down to, well, on that first page, I apologize, I just wanted to point out a couple of things here. If you scroll back up. I'm sorry. It has the recorded date of December 29th, 2021. As the Court knows, that approximately two months prior to the bankruptcy filing in this case. Secondary name, which is the name of the purchaser, you'll see is Taurus Fund, LLC. And then at the bottom of this first page, it has the consideration paid which was \\$26 million. If you go to page 12 of the PDF please, there's one other thing I wanted to flag for the Court. MR. CONWAY: Your Honor, I would just say that given the fact that it's not in evidence, he's sort of Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 151 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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152 |\n| 1 | testifying, but I won't object to it going into evidence, so |\n| 2 | then he could then read the document. |\n| 3 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Then Exhibit 2 is admitted in |\n| 4 | full.
Thank you. |\n| 5 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you. |\n| 6 | (Trustee's Exhibit 2 received in evidence) |\n| 7 | MR. BASSETT:
And the only other thing I wanted to |\n| 8 | identify for the Court was at page, is this page 12, yes, |\n| 9 | property classification, which is in the middle of the page, |\n| 10 | the mark, the checkmark there is Class 2 Residential. |\n| 11 | The next exhibit, Your Honor, that is not yet into |\n| 12 | evidence is Trustee Exhibit 9.
This exhibit, Your Honor, is |\n| 13 | simply the articles of organization of Taurus Management, |\n| 14 | LLC, which is one of the two managers of Taurus Fund, LLC. |\n| 15 | The other one being Scott Barnett.
Absent any objection, we |\n| 16 | would offer this document into evidence. |\n| 17 | THE COURT:
What is this document? |\n| 18 | MR. BASSETT:
This is the -- this is obtained from |\n| 19 | the Secretary of State from the State of New Mexico. |\n| 20 | THE COURT:
Okay. |\n| 21 | MR. BASSETT:
As we -- as we saw with the, I think |\n| 22 | it was Exhibit 2, no, Exhibit 3, which was the articles of |\n| 23 | organization of Taurus Fund, LLC, Taurus Fund, LLC being the |\n| 24 | nominal owner of the property, Taurus Fund, LLC, according |\n| 25 | to its articles of organization, has two managers.
One |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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153 |\n| 1 | being Scott Barnett.
The other one being Taurus Management, |\n| 2 | LLC. |\n| 3 | This, in turn, is the document pulled from the New |\n| 4 | Mexico Secretary of State website concerning Taurus |\n| 5 | Management, LLC.
We wanted that document also to be part of |\n| 6 | the record.
And, therefore, we would offer it into evidence |\n| 7 | as Trustee Exhibit 9. |\n| 8 | MR. CONWAY:
Well, I object to most of the |\n| 9 | characterization, which wasn't true.
I don't object to the |\n| 10 | admission of the document. |\n| 11 | THE COURT:
Can you go to page, just page 1 of |\n| 12 | this document.
I just didn't see it.
For whatever reason, |\n| 13 | I was looking away when -- oh, it's just the cover sheet. |\n| 14 | Okay.
I thought there was a different title or something. |\n| 15 | All right. |\n| 16 | So then the first page of the document is this, |\n| 17 | right here with the seal at the top? |\n| 18 | MR. BASSETT:
That's correct, Your Honor. |\n| 19 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Okay.
Exhibit 9 is admitted in |\n| 20 | full. |\n| 21 | (Trustee's Exhibit 9 received in evidence) |\n| 22 | MR. BASSETT:
I think just a couple more exhibits. |\n| 23 | Trustee Exhibit 11 is the next one.
Oh, I'm |\n| 24 | sorry.
I'm sorry.
That's incorrect.
Trustee Exhibit 10. |\n| 25 | This is another, Your Honor, just public record |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 154 of\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
154 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | document.
I believe it's self-authenticating.
It comes |\n| 2 | from the United States Department of the Interior National |\n| 3 | Park Service, National Register of Historic Places.
It |\n| 4 | contains information recorded with the National Register |\n| 5 | about the property, including its historical nature.
I |\n| 6 | don't think there's a dispute about that. |\n| 7 | And this is a document that we also believe should |\n| 8 | be admitted into evidence and I would ask that it be |\n| 9 | admitted as Trustee Exhibit 10 at this time. |\n| 10 | THE COURT:
Counsel, do you have any opposition to |\n| 11 | the admission of Trustee Exhibit 10? |\n| 12 | MR. CONWAY:
I don't, Your Honor. |\n| 13 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. |\n| 14 | MR. BASSETT:
One thing I would like to note about |\n| 15 | this particular exhibit is on page 7 of the PDF. |\n| 16 | If you scroll down further.
Sorry.
Up a little |\n| 17 | bit. |\n| 18 | The second paragraph on page 7, it says pursuant |\n| 19 | to an agreement between the Township of Mahwah and |\n| 20 | Darlington Associates, the owners, the mansion is to have |\n| 21 | its exterior restored by the owners and to be used as a |\n| 22 | single-family residence.
I just wanted to identify that for |\n| 23 | the Court. |\n| 24 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you. |\n| 25 | MR. BASSETT:
Your Honor, another document on the |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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155 |\n| 1 | exhibit list that I'd like to have pulled up on the screen |\n| 2 | if possible is Trustee Exhibit 20. |\n| 3 | Trustee Exhibit 20, Your Honor, frankly is a |\n| 4 | document that I think the Court could just take judicial |\n| 5 | notice of.
It is a decision from Your Honor in this case. |\n| 6 | This is the corrected memorandum of decision granting in |\n| 7 | part the motion for preliminary injunction in the PAX |\n| 8 | litigation concerning the protests. |\n| 9 | I'm happy -- I think it's been clear based on |\n| 10 | comments made today, you know, why much of what the Court |\n| 11 | found in issuing this decision is relevant.
We think it's |\n| 12 | important that it become part of the record. |\n| 13 | And again, this summary staged at the proceeding, |\n| 14 | to the extent counsel would argue that it's hearsay because |\n| 15 | he was not involved, hearsay does come in at this stage of |\n| 16 | the proceeding.
So we would ask that Exhibit 20 be admitted |\n| 17 | into evidence as well. |\n| 18 | MR. CONWAY:
I have no idea what it is or how it's |\n| 19 | relevant, so I'm going to object on relevance grounds.
I |\n| 20 | assume that you can take judicial notice of it though. |\n| 21 | MR. BASSETT:
As to the relevance issue, and we're |\n| 22 | fine with the Court taking judicial notice of it, but I just |\n| 23 | would be happy to point out, among other things, paragraphs |\n| 24 | 2 and 4 of the decision the Court found that NFSC is |\n| 25 | associated, affiliated, and/or connected to the debtor. |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 156 In paragraph 6, the Court found that the NFSC is involved in the protests that were at issue in that litigation. In paragraph 7, the Court found that the debtor is the leader of the NFSC. NFSC serves the purposes of the debtor, it serves as business vehicles for the debtor, and their members are personally loyal to the debtor. Those are just a couple of the findings of this order that are highly relevant. THE COURT: Okay. Exhibit 20 is admitted in full. (Trustee's Exhibit 20 received in evidence) MR. BASSETT: Just two more, two more exhibits, Your Honor. First is Exhibit 28 to the Trustee's Exhibit List. This is another document of which the Court will be familiar. This is the decision and order of Justice Ostrager of the New York Court in the PAX litigation from February 9, 2022. I think again the Court could take judicial notice of this decision. What I would note in terms of its relevance and why we are offering it, we are simply asking the Court to take notice of Justice Ostrager's findings in this decision, with which the Court is very familiar, and which are mentioned in the complaint in this adversary proceeding, that the debtor has used legal entities to engage in what Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 156 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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157 |\n| 1 | Justice Ostrager called a, quote/unquote, \"Shell game\" |\n| 2 | designed to keep his assets from creditors. |\n| 3 | Again, that's the purpose for which we are asking |\n| 4 | this to be introduced.
And, again, I think it's appropriate |\n| 5 | for this document to come in at this stage of this |\n| 6 | litigation given that we're here on a preliminary |\n| 7 | injunction. |\n| 8 | MR. CONWAY:
This one, again, I don't know that |\n| 9 | it's relevant at all to these proceedings.
And I don't know |\n| 10 | if this one is subject to being taken on judicial notice, |\n| 11 | but Your Honor can tell me. |\n| 12 | MR. BASSETT:
And again, Your Honor, I would just |\n| 13 | add, you know, the relevance is for the limited purpose that |\n| 14 | I mentioned.
We're not asking for all aspects of this |\n| 15 | decision to come into evidence, just the finding that |\n| 16 | Justice Ostrager made concerning the way the debtor |\n| 17 | operates, which was the subject to extensive testimony by |\n| 18 | the Trustee. |\n| 19 | So I think -- and by the way, that testimony was |\n| 20 | elicited on cross-examination so I think it is -- it's |\n| 21 | certainly relevant. |\n| 22 | THE COURT:
Trustee's Exhibit 28 is admitted in |\n| 23 | full. |\n| 24 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 25 | (Trustee's Exhibit 28 received in evidence) |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 158 of\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
158 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | MR. BASSETT:
The last exhibit on the Trustee's |\n| 2 | exhibit list that we're seeking to have admitted into |\n| 3 | evidence is Exhibit 29.
And this is a copy of the criminal |\n| 4 | indictment that has been filed against Mr. Kwok and William |\n| 5 | Je that has been the subject of much testimony here today. |\n| 6 | We obviously understand that the statements in |\n| 7 | here at this point, given that it is an indictment, are only |\n| 8 | allegations.
But we do think the fact of the indictment's |\n| 9 | allegations, the facts cited in the indictment, and the |\n| 10 | conclusions that the Department of Justice has drawn is |\n| 11 | relevant, highly relevant. |\n| 12 | And I think given that the allegations are |\n| 13 | unproven, the court obviously would just place whatever |\n| 14 | weight it deems on this document at this time. |\n| 15 | I can go through and point out particular |\n| 16 | paragraphs to the extent helpful, but as the testimony has |\n| 17 | already shown today, there's numerous statements in here |\n| 18 | about the debtor having purchased the Mahwah mansion using |\n| 19 | proceeds of fraudulent conduct.
And it's for that reason |\n| 20 | that we're asking for Trustee Exhibit 29 to be admitted into |\n| 21 | evidence. |\n| 22 | THE COURT:
Counsel? |\n| 23 | MR. CONWAY:
Your Honor, there's been no |\n| 24 | foundation.
Counsel's indicated that he's not suggesting |\n| 25 | that any of the allegations are true.
We don't even know |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 159 of\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
159 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | why the allegations are in here.
I'm not even sure what the |\n| 2 | relevance is here because we've got a sealed indictment that |\n| 3 | has a whole host of allegations that have been unproven and |\n| 4 | we don't know where this information comes from. |\n| 5 | So I'm objecting on foundation, Your Honor. |\n| 6 | THE COURT:
Thank you. |\n| 7 | MR. BASSETT:
Your Honor, first of all, the |\n| 8 | indictment has been unsealed.
Counsel has -- |\n| 9 | THE COURT:
Counsel may not know that. |\n| 10 | But it is unsealed at this point.
It's been |\n| 11 | unsealed since March of this year. |\n| 12 | But also, just to answer your objection why I'm |\n| 13 | going to overrule your objection, in addition to the fact |\n| 14 | that this document, there was a lot of testimony about this |\n| 15 | document already today, and it's mentioned in, if not |\n| 16 | numerous occasions in the complaint, and also the debtor's |\n| 17 | counsel filed a letter in this adversary proceeding today at |\n| 18 | 9:55 this morning talking about that they somehow -- I'm not |\n| 19 | exactly sure what the debtor's intending to do except that |\n| 20 | in this letter, that's now ECF 25 in this adversary |\n| 21 | proceeding that was filed at 9:55 this morning, a letter |\n| 22 | from Attorney Henzy, talking about the mansion and |\n| 23 | understanding that there was a hearing on a preliminary |\n| 24 | injunction today. |\n| 25 | And the letter says in paragraph 3, I write to |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 160 of\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
160 |\n| 1 | report to Your Honor that the debtor, through his criminal |\n| 2 | counsel, intends to present a motion to the United States |\n| 3 | District Court.
In so doing, the debtor intends to seek an |\n| 4 | order providing continued -- providing continued access to |\n| 5 | the property and to prevent any changes to it or its |\n| 6 | contents pending resolution of or further orders in the |\n| 7 | criminal case. |\n| 8 | So I think it is relevant.
And there isn't a need |\n| 9 | for a foundation in that it's a public document.
The debtor |\n| 10 | himself has called it into question in this adversary |\n| 11 | proceeding by filing this letter.
And the complaint refers |\n| 12 | to the indictment.
And there was a great deal of testimony |\n| 13 | regarding the indictment today. |\n| 14 | So I'm overruling your objection. |\n| 15 | And Trustee's Exhibit 29 is admitted in full. |\n| 16 | (Trustee's Exhibit 29 received in evidence) |\n| 17 | MR. BASSETT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 18 | That is all I had by way of exhibits. |\n\n And with the Court's indulgence, I'll just check with my colleagues to make sure we don't have anything else. THE COURT: Go right ahead,\n\n MR. BASSETT: Your Honor, that concludes the presentation of the Trustee's evidence. Thank you very much.\n\nTHE COURT: Okay. Thank you.\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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161 |\n| 1 | Attorney Conway, would you like to present any |\n| 2 | evidence? |\n| 3 | MR. CONWAY:
I certainly would, Your Honor, but I |\n| 4 | have not been around long enough to have been able to |\n| 5 | organize that as I mentioned earlier today. |\n| 6 | I guess I should suggest that I think Your Honor |\n| 7 | said that the TRO expires tomorrow, is that what you said? |\n| 8 | THE COURT:
It does.
It was -- it was entered on |\n| 9 | the docket two, I don't remember, 2:06 or seven p.m. on |\n| 10 | August 1st.
So under Rule 65, it expires, right? |\n| 11 | Doesn't it expire tomorrow?
Or is it the next |\n| 12 | day?
I don't know.
I have to look at the rules again, but. |\n| 13 | MR. CONWAY:
Whether it's tomorrow or the next |\n| 14 | day, I understand it's expiring soon. |\n| 15 | THE COURT:
Yes. |\n| 16 | MR. CONWAY:
And I guess that's probably the |\n| 17 | reason why when I asked Mr. Bassett about an extension of |\n| 18 | time he probably was reluctant.
It wasn't that he didn't |\n| 19 | like me.
But I didn't know it at the time. |\n| 20 | So obviously, Your Honor, given the facts we've |\n| 21 | heard, we know that there are a lot of questions marks. |\n| 22 | More than anything, there are questions marks here.
And I |\n| 23 | would absolutely love to put on a case where we can answer |\n| 24 | some of these allegations, you know, before Your Honor makes |\n| 25 | a decision on a preliminary injunction. |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 162 of\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
162 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | And perhaps we can stipulate to an extension of |\n| 2 | the TRO in order to provide me time to do the necessary to |\n| 3 | accumulate the evidence I need, actually review the papers, |\n| 4 | which I have to admit I only had a chance to scan.
I just |\n| 5 | got most of them this morning.
So it would be nice to have |\n| 6 | that time. |\n| 7 | And to the extent that we can resolve the concern |\n| 8 | about the expiration of the TRO by simply stipulating to |\n| 9 | extending it, that would perhaps make it easier for this |\n| 10 | court to make a decision based on full evidence. |\n| 11 | THE COURT:
Well, you'll have to -- I'll take a |\n| 12 | short recess if you'd like and you can talk about it, but I |\n| 13 | don't know what the position is going to be obviously. |\n| 14 | I'll take -- I'll give you some time to talk about |\n| 15 | whether you'll extend, you'll agree to an extension under |\n| 16 | Rule 65(b)(2). |\n| 17 | Go ahead.
Go ahead. |\n| 18 | MR. BASSETT:
Your Honor, I don't think -- |\n| 19 | THE COURT:
You're saying -- you're saying, I |\n| 20 | think, Mr. Bassett, before you say it, there's no need for a |\n| 21 | recess because you're not going to agree? |\n| 22 | MR. BASSETT:
That's correct, Your Honor. |\n| 23 | I think we had some discussion about this earlier |\n| 24 | today.
We are here today seeking not merely a continuation |\n| 25 | of the TRO that's in existence, but the further relief that |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 163 of\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
163 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | we have been discussing and that we're asking for in our |\n| 2 | papers, which is to ensure that all the individuals that |\n| 3 | we've seen coming in and out of the house, all of that |\n| 4 | activity, that the house be secured, that we have the |\n| 5 | assistance of the U.S. Marshal if necessary, everything that |\n| 6 | Trustee Despins talked about. |\n| 7 | And we're not willing, the Trustee is not willing, |\n| 8 | to continue for any longer period of time simply by having |\n| 9 | the existing TRO in place. |\n| 10 | The other thing that I want to point out and |\n| 11 | emphasize is that the Court is correct that we have set this |\n| 12 | hearing for a preliminary injunction in accordance with the |\n| 13 | rules. |\n| 14 | And we have also served a TRO on the defendants to |\n| 15 | this litigation in accordance with this court's order.
The |\n| 16 | certificate of service at Trustee Exhibit 1, which I did not |\n| 17 | cover in detail, makes clear that the Trustee served all of |\n| 18 | the defendants, specifically in accordance with Federal of |\n| 19 | Bankruptcy Procedure 4(b), by mailing documents to |\n| 20 | registered agents. |\n| 21 | Other exhibits in the record make clear that the |\n| 22 | registered agents of Taurus Fund and Taurus Management are |\n| 23 | the registered agents to whom we served these papers, so |\n| 24 | there is no issue. |\n| 25 | I understand counsel may not have been contacted |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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164 |\n| 1 | and been retained until recently, but his clients were |\n| 2 | served.
That's what matters.
If they wanted to contest -- |\n| 3 | THE COURT:
It wasn't just by mail, Attorney |\n| 4 | Bassett.
It was UPS overnight delivery too.
It says on |\n| 5 | August 1st -- |\n| 6 | MR. BASSETT:
That's correct. |\n| 7 | THE COURT:
-- Taurus Fund, LLC was served by |\n| 8 | first class mail and UPS overnight delivery on its |\n| 9 | registered agent G International which I think we just saw |\n| 10 | that name -- |\n| 11 | MR. BASSETT:
That's correct. |\n| 12 | THE COURT:
-- in the -- in what would have been I |\n| 13 | think Trustee's 9, or Trustee's 3, either one of those were |\n| 14 | the Secretary of State documents.
I can't remember which |\n| 15 | one. |\n| 16 | MR. BASSETT:
That's correct.
One of them was the |\n| 17 | -- I think 9 was the Secretary of State document for Taurus |\n| 18 | Management.
And that had listed in, within that document, |\n| 19 | the registered agent we served for purposes of serving |\n| 20 | Taurus Management. |\n| 21 | The document at Trustee Exhibit 3 is the Taurus |\n| 22 | Fund, LLC articles of organization.
And that had the other |\n| 23 | agent that we served listed as the registered agent for that |\n| 24 | entity. |\n| 25 | We also attempted to -- we also I believe sent by |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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165 |\n| 1 | overnight mail service to Mr. Barnett himself.
We also, as |\n| 2 | belt and suspenders, although not necessary, tried to serve |\n| 3 | him personally.
And we tried to do that twice. |\n| 4 | And then we filed another certificate of service |\n| 5 | this morning reaffirming the second attempt whereby the |\n| 6 | process server has indicated that he received confirmation |\n| 7 | from a neighbor of Mr. Barnett that he, in fact, lives |\n| 8 | there, but he was not able to catch him at home.
But |\n| 9 | regardless, service under Rule 4(b) is sufficient if process |\n| 10 | has been mailed. |\n| 11 | So I don't think there's any question about the |\n| 12 | defendants having had notice, timely notice, of the hearing |\n| 13 | today and, therefore, I don't think there's any basis at all |\n| 14 | for a continuance simply because those defendants decided to |\n| 15 | take their time in retaining counsel. |\n| 16 | So for all those reasons, and including most |\n| 17 | importantly the fact that we are simply not willing to |\n| 18 | adjourn this hearing based on a continuation of the current |\n| 19 | TRO, we would, you know, continue to ask for the relief that |\n| 20 | we're seeking, which is a broader relief than currently in |\n| 21 | place without a continuance. |\n| 22 | THE COURT:
I understand. |\n| 23 | Counsel, any response? |\n| 24 | MR. CONWAY:
Well, I would say that the |\n| 25 | characterization that they had notice is improper.
The fact |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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166 |\n| 1 | that they got served under the code by mail to a post office |\n| 2 | box is not the same as giving them notice. |\n| 3 | And I can tell you that if it weren't for counsel |\n| 4 | in another of your matters here having seen this on the |\n| 5 | docket and making folks aware, I wouldn't have been |\n| 6 | contacted on Friday. |\n| 7 | So, you know, that said, I don't think it's -- |\n| 8 | THE COURT:
I don't think you're right about the |\n| 9 | service though. |\n| 10 | MR. CONWAY:
I'm not overly concerned about that. |\n| 11 | I just want to make sure the record's clear that, you know, |\n| 12 | those of us who practice bankruptcy law who take advantage |\n| 13 | of the mail service option, should -- |\n| 14 | THE COURT:
Well, he did -- as I noted, it was |\n| 15 | overnight mail UPS as well.
And there was attempted service |\n| 16 | on Mr. Barnett -- |\n| 17 | Is that his name, I'm sorry, Barnett? |\n| 18 | MR. BASSETT:
Yes, Your Honor. |\n| 19 | MR. CONWAY:
Right. |\n| 20 | THE COURT:
-- at his home in Long Island and he |\n| 21 | wasn't there. |\n| 22 | MR. CONWAY:
Yeah.
None of -- |\n| 23 | THE COURT:
I don't think you're correct.
I don't |\n| 24 | think that statement that service notice is not proper. |\n| 25 | It's a temporary restraining order.
The rules -- |\n| | |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 167 the rules prescribe how service should be made and service was made on your clients in the way that they directed service be made with the Secretary of State's Office of the state in which they were incorporated. So I don't think you can say that really. I mean, you can say it. I'm not going to disagree with other things that you say, but I am going to disagree with that because I don't think that's a valid statement. MR. CONWAY: I didn't argue about service. THE COURT: Tell me how under Rule 4 and under Rule 65 they didn't make service? MR. CONWAY: I didn't say that, Your Honor. And I apologize if I was unclear. I said the exact opposite. That while service was made, you can't say that the parties got notice simply because there were multiple mailings to post office boxes. The only individual here that they claim they served, they didn't actually make service on. THE COURT: I don't -- I don't agree with your argument, Counsel. MR. CONWAY: I didn't mean to use the word service. I mean to say -- well, they didn't actually put it in hand. They didn't -- THE COURT: There's no requirement that it be served in hand. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 167 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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168 |\n| 1 | MR. CONWAY:
And I'm not saying there is.
I'm not |\n| 2 | arguing service. |\n| 3 | THE COURT:
Well, then your argument is -- then |\n| 4 | let's move on.
Because then nothing that you're saying is |\n| 5 | persuasive to me right now with regard to service.
They did |\n| 6 | exactly what they were supposed to do with regard to |\n| 7 | service. |\n| 8 | MR. CONWAY:
And my comment is limited. |\n| 9 | THE COURT:
And so whether or not your clients |\n| 10 | decided to not open up the package isn't their problem. |\n| 11 | It's your clients' problems.
If they didn't open up the |\n| 12 | package, and you're telling me there's somehow a notice, |\n| 13 | there's now a standard for actual notice of the service in |\n| 14 | the manner in which they made service that your client has |\n| 15 | designated for service, show me a case that says that, |\n| 16 | because I think you're going to lose on that one. |\n| 17 | MR. CONWAY:
Yeah.
I wouldn't do that, Your |\n| 18 | Honor. |\n| 19 | I would only restate the fact that it's one thing |\n| 20 | to say service was made.
It's another thing to say they |\n| 21 | actually had notice. |\n| 22 | THE COURT:
They don't have to actually have |\n| 23 | notice. |\n| 24 | MR. CONWAY:
It shouldn't say it. |\n| 25 | THE COURT:
Your client made the choice.
They |\n| | |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 169 either didn't open up the package or they threw the package away or whatever. Whatever they did. You can't -- you can't escape the requirements of service of a temporary restraining order by saying I didn't open up the pleading so I didn't know what it said. There's no case law that supports that, Counsel. There's just none. MR. CONWAY: And nobody here has made that argument, Your Honor. THE COURT: Well, you are making that argument because you just said they don't have notice. MR. CONWAY: No. I said that while service was good, it was improper for counsel to speculate that they had notice. MR. BASSETT: Your Honor? THE COURT: I don't think that's what you said. But I think let's move on. MR. CONWAY: That's what I intend. THE COURT: Let's move on. It's irrelevant. Service was properly made and I have no problem with the way service was made. And the fact that, you know, your -- Mr. Barnett and/or your clients, whatever they chose to do, they chose to do, nobody can control what they chose to do. Service was properly made. So they're not going to agree to an extension of Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 169 of\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 170 the TRO, Counsel. So then is there anything else you want to tell the Court? Because then I have to make this ruling by 2:06 p.m. tomorrow in order for the -- before the restraining order expires. MR. CONWAY: Are you inviting me to argue right now or did you want -- THE COURT: I'm inviting you to argue. You're here. So go ahead. MR. CONWAY: Okay. MR. LUFT: Your Honor? THE COURT: I'm going to listen to argument, Counsel. MR. LUFT: I'm saying I just ask that we ask to respond with our argument after? THE COURT: Yeah. Sure. I'm going to give you just -- I'm going to give you an opportunity to respond. But he's here and I'm going to listen to him. I'm not -- I'll give whatever weight -- I'm giving whatever all of you say -- I have -- I'll give it whatever weight it's worth when I go back and review it. Right? That's what I do. That's supposedly what I'm here for. So that's what I'm going to do. Okay? So go ahead, Counsel. Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 170 of\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 171 CLOSING ARGUMENT FOR DEFENDANT MR. CONWAY: Thank you, Your Honor. And, you know, my argument's going to be very brief because I have very little understanding of the case at this point. I can tell you that I've listened to the evidence here and the evidence is that we think that this may have been a house purchased with funds that may have been controlled by the debtor and, therefore, you should restrain the property and lock out the owners of the property, titled owners of the property, based on this testimony. That's a mandatory injunction which requires a little bit higher burden of proof. You know, what we're talking about here is a, you know, an allegation that may be that there's some property there that's at risk of being taken and that's why they feel that they should lock out the owners of the property. Well, we would stipulate that they can go in and get that property and move it. Because if that's the only concern, fine. THE COURT: You'll stipulate that they can go into the mansion and take out all the property? MR. CONWAY: The property that they believe is the debtor's. THE COURT: Well, they believe all of it's the Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 171 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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172 |\n| 1 | debtor's.
So you're going to let them to in and take it? |\n| 2 | MR. CONWAY:
If we were able to put on our case -- |\n| 3 | THE COURT:
That's fine. |\n| 4 | MR. CONWAY:
-- I could show them the -- I could |\n| 5 | show Your Honor all the evidence that shows which property |\n| 6 | belongs to the Taurus Fund, and that property belongs to the |\n| 7 | Taurus Fund. |\n| 8 | If there's no evidence that it belongs to the |\n| 9 | debtor, they can't take it.
They can't take -- there's no |\n| 10 | evidence that anything here other -- there's speculation |\n| 11 | that because they don't know how Mr. Kwok does his business |\n| 12 | that this must be ill-gotten gains, that this must be like |\n| 13 | other assets that has been discussed in front of Your Honor, |\n| 14 | somehow improperly controlled by Mr. Kwok.
There's no |\n| 15 | evidence of that though.
And we need evidence here. |\n| 16 | We need to have something to show that there is an |\n| 17 | immediate need, there's some actual concern about changing |\n| 18 | the status quo. |\n| 19 | Your Honor, a preliminary injunction is to |\n| 20 | maintain the status quo.
It's not meant to say we're going |\n| 21 | to change the status quo, which right now is that the Taurus |\n| 22 | Fund can use the property.
Right now, if we -- if we |\n| 23 | maintain the status quo and have an injunction that says you |\n| 24 | can't do anything with the asset, pending the outcome of |\n| 25 | this litigation, that's well within the bounds of Rule 65. |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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173 |\n| 1 | But that's not what they're asking. |\n| 2 | There asking that Your Honor change the status |\n| 3 | quo, lock out the owners, mandatory injunction, and they |\n| 4 | want you to do this based on evidence that consists of what? |\n| 5 | Well, he did it before so we think that he did it |\n| 6 | here.
That's not -- that's not sufficient, Your Honor.
It |\n| 7 | is a high burden to have a mandatory injunction that changes |\n| 8 | the status quo.
We haven't seen it here. |\n| 9 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Thank you, Counsel. |\n| 10 | Any response? |\n| 11 | MR. LUFT:
Yes, Your Honor.
May I approach? |\n| 12 | THE COURT:
Sure. |\n| 13 | CLOSING ARGUMENT FOR THE PLAINTIFF TRUSTEE |\n| 14 | MR. LUFT:
Good afternoon, Your Honor.
Avi Luft |\n| 15 | of Paul Hastings on behalf of the Chapter 11 Trustee. |\n| 16 | THE COURT:
Good afternoon. |\n| 17 | MR. LUFT:
I want to get into my remarks, but I do |\n| 18 | want to note, because it's come up a number of times, |\n| 19 | Attorney Conway keeps representing that if he could just |\n| 20 | show his evidence, he's seen all the evidence, and at the |\n| 21 | same time has repeatedly told us today that he has |\n| 22 | absolutely no time to see evidence or build a case. |\n| 23 | That's the speculation we're talking about today, |\n| 24 | Your Honor.
If he had evidence, he had every opportunity to |\n| 25 | show up today and present it. |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 174 of\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
174 |\n|---|--------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | Now, the fact is he's also said he hasn't seen our |\n| 2 | evidence and it's not there.
In fact, Your Honor, as I'll |\n| 3 | walk through, there's extensive evidence that supports this |\n| 4 | and reason to grant this preliminary injunction. |\n| 5 | As our claims state, the debtor is the equitable |\n| 6 | owner of the Mahwah mansion.
The Taurus Fund is also |\n\n equitably owned by him and we believe it to be the alter ego.\n\n How are we going to show this? The evidence is going to show that the mansion, its contents, and the Taurus Fund are all estate assets and these assets have to be preserved for the creditors before they can be dissipated, damaged, liquidated, or moved to another unnamed shell company.\n\n So we are asking the Court to have the assets freezed. We are asking for access to the mansion to be restricted to only those who need to be there, meaning law enforcement, the Trustee, and who he designates as needing to be there. And, Your Honor, we also are going to need for the assistance of the U.S. Marshals to the extent that it is necessary. Because the fact is right now the debtor has called on hundreds of people to descend on the mansion. This is a recipe for disaster.\n\n Now, we've talked about the relief we seek. We ask to enjoin the defendants, which is the Taurus Fund, LLC,\n\n| | 196 |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
175 |\n| 1 | Mr. Barnett, and Taurus Management, LLC, who are now the |\n| 2 | trustee's of the Taurus Fund, for interfering with |\n| 3 | encumbering and disposing of the assets of the Taurus Funds. |\n| 4 | We've also asked in the order that this be made |\n| 5 | applicable to high-ranking members of the NFSC as set out. |\n| 6 | I'm not going to detail each one. |\n| 7 | We're asking for the restriction of the access to |\n| 8 | be limited and in such a way that keys can be changed, |\n| 9 | passcodes, whatever else, to help secure the assets. |\n| 10 | As the Trustee has said, anyone who cares about |\n| 11 | the assets should support this.
It's about preserving the |\n| 12 | assets, we believe for the creditors.
But even if we're |\n| 13 | wrong, presumably any other owner would want this. |\n| 14 | Now, the law is clear.
For us to get the PI, we |\n| 15 | need to show a likelihood of success on the merits of one of |\n| 16 | our three claims.
We believe we will be able to show it as |\n| 17 | to all three. |\n| 18 | Now, while there's been suggestions that we must |\n| 19 | meet some type of criminal standard of beyond a reasonable |\n| 20 | doubt, that is not the standard.
We only have to show a |\n| 21 | likelihood of success greater than 50 percent how likely it |\n| 22 | is. |\n| 23 | Now, the equitable ownership found where property |\n| 24 | is acquired, sorry, equitable ownership is found where the |\n| 25 | property is paid for with debtor funds, where the debtor |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 175 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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176 |\n| 1 | represents that he has an interest in the property, or the |\n| 2 | property is used to obtain credit. |\n| 3 | The Bankruptcy Court in the District of New Jersey |\n| 4 | has also found equitable ownership where they have found a |\n| 5 | pattern and practice of a debtor's fraudulent behavior, |\n| 6 | specifically where a debtor funds purchases and maintains |\n| 7 | the fact of control but places the asset in another person's |\n| 8 | name. |\n| 9 | Now, with regard to Nevada equitable ownership |\n| 10 | law, which is where the Taurus Fund is registered, where a |\n| 11 | debtor has active or substantial control of a fund, or the |\n| 12 | debtor is using or receiving the benefits of the fund's |\n| 13 | assets, that establishes equitable ownership under Nevada |\n| 14 | law. |\n| 15 | Now, the evidence in this case supports all of |\n| 16 | that.
The funds used to purchase and renovate, all evidence |\n| 17 | suggests they come from the debtor. |\n| 18 | I want to address the idea that before it was |\n| 19 | asked the Trustee on cross, well, didn't the video say that |\n| 20 | G Club owns the property?
There was no such statement. |\n| 21 | In fact, I asked Ms. Song directly was there any |\n| 22 | testimony -- was there any statements on those videos, |\n| 23 | excuse me, in which anyone other than Mr. Kwok was indicated |\n| 24 | as being the owner of the property?
And she testified, no, |\n| 25 | nothing in Mandarin suggested that. |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 177 of\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
177 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | And if the Court had its own review it, they're |\n| 2 | not going to be able to find it.
It's just not there. |\n| 3 | Now, in terms of where these funds come from? |\n| 4 | Part of the investigation, we can look certainly |\n| 5 | where the FBI and the Department of Justice believes they |\n| 6 | come from is that the money came from G Club, routed through |\n| 7 | bank accounts to purchase the mansion.
The Government has |\n| 8 | indicated that that is part of Mr. Kwok and Mr. Je's |\n| 9 | fraudulent scheme to fund the purchase. |\n| 10 | There have been allegations of, well, must the |\n| 11 | money all come from a victim? |\n| 12 | Of course, Your Honor, in this case, we know that |\n| 13 | the defendant has money from many places.
He had money from |\n| 14 | China, billions of dollars.
He has dealings with the UAE, |\n| 15 | where we've had testimony where he has billions of dollars. |\n| 16 | As well as the money, the billion dollars that the |\n| 17 | Government has raised. |\n| 18 | So the idea that it's a strawman to suggest that |\n| 19 | if you can't show that from the victims, then it must not be |\n| 20 | the debtor's money. |\n| 21 | Now, let's talk about the residence itself and the |\n| 22 | question of -- the statement earlier from Mr. Conway that |\n| 23 | this was not -- no one is saying that this a personal |\n| 24 | residence. |\n| 25 | Of course all the evidence suggests that this is |\n| | |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 178 the debtor's personal residence. If you look at Exhibit 19, it talks about the boss's bedroom and Mei's bedroom. People have bedrooms where they live, Your Honor. If you look at Exhibits 14 and 18, we can see the debtor's personal identifications with his picture on it. His New York learners permit. His Hong Kong permanent identity card. Exhibit 17, his own prescriptions. Exhibit 13, suits with his name stitched in them, which we now know is 29 suits. No one brings 29 suits for a one-night, overnight stay, Your Honor. And of course Exhibit 15, the family's pictures. That's Mr. Kwok with his family. That's the type of thing I have in my home and I believe it's the exact type of thing that Mr. Kwok has in his home. We've seen the debtor broadcasting. He is using the asset. It's exactly -- where else have we seen that? In the Sherry-Netherland, the other apartment that he lives in. And we see that at Exhibits 22 and 23. What else do we see that we've seen before? The entity is managed and in the name of someone close to Mr. Kwok. Here it is his bodyguard/chauffeur, Mr. Barnett. He manages the Taurus Fund. And now that it's in default, he's a trustee of the Taurus Fund. Why is it significant that we have it transferred to a trustee? I'll Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 178 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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179 |\n| 1 | say it in two-fold, Your Honor. |\n| 2 | First of all, the fact that the Taurus Fund is |\n| 3 | defunct means under Nevada law it can no longer do business. |\n| 4 | So the suggestion that they're the people who want to use |\n| 5 | the asset or that they are still operating just legally is |\n| 6 | not true. |\n| 7 | Now, now that it's transferred into default and |\n| 8 | leaves the trustees in control, it is of particular |\n| 9 | important to secure these assets, because I believe under |\n| 10 | Nevada law, those trustees now have the right to distribute |\n| 11 | the assets of the trustee, sorry, of the Taurus Fund.
Well, |\n| 12 | obviously we have to secure them before something like that |\n| 13 | can happen. |\n| 14 | Now, also with regard to the debtor's use of the |\n| 15 | house, I want to make note of the letter from Mr. Henzy |\n| 16 | today in which he talks about the debtor needs to have |\n| 17 | continued ability to access the home. |\n| 18 | Well, why would Mr. Kwok have to have access to |\n| 19 | the home if it wasn't someplace where he was living in the |\n| 20 | first place?
I mean, any suggestion that Mr. Kwok wasn't |\n| 21 | deeply intertwined with this property went out the window |\n| 22 | when Mr. Henzy wrote a letter today saying he needed special |\n| 23 | relief so that the debtor can continue that access just like |\n| 24 | -- and the access he wants is just like the Sherry |\n| 25 | Netherland.
The property where he has admitted that he was |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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180 |\n| 1 | living. |\n| 2 | Now, we know that Mr. Barnett, through Exhibit 5, |\n| 3 | the same lawyers from Zeisler & Zeisler have described to |\n| 4 | (indiscernible) security for Mr. Kwok. |\n| 5 | Exhibit 6 showed that he was a listed driver for |\n| 6 | Mr. Kwok's cars. |\n| 7 | And Exhibits 7 and 8 show that he received |\n| 8 | payments from Greenwich Land, the entity that owns Mr. |\n| 9 | Kwok's Connecticut residence, which is in the name of |\n| 10 | Greenwich Land and Lexington Property, which is one of the |\n| 11 | entities that we are having the HCHK litigation about. |\n| 12 | These are all entities which the Trustee is |\n| 13 | diligently and quickly moving through various adversary |\n| 14 | proceeding Your Honor is well aware of that all have one |\n| 15 | common factor, they're all owned by Mr. Kwok.
That's what |\n| 16 | we're showing. |\n| 17 | And quite honestly, the notion that Mr. Barnett |\n| 18 | spends his days driving around Mr. Kwok and picking up his |\n| 19 | boxes from places, and completely unrelated to that also |\n| 20 | happens to have another job managing a \\$30 million mansion |\n| 21 | that is allegedly not tied to Mr. Kwok, is just simply not |\n| 22 | plausible.
He is just another person close to Mr. Kwok who |\n| 23 | Mr. Kwok puts on the title and then proceeds to use the |\n| 24 | asset.
And that's his practice.
We've seen this over and |\n| 25 | over. |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 181 of\n\n| 196 |\n|-----|\n|-----|\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
181 |\n|----|-----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | And case law talks about a pattern and practice. |\n| 2 | Mr. Kwok uses shell companies that he does not put his name |\n| 3 | on while retaining control of the assets.
Where have we |\n| 4 | seen this? |\n| 5 | Well, we've seen it with the Lady May where he |\n| | |\n| 6 | used his daughter.
We've seen it with the Taconic Road |\n| 7 | properties where Greenwich Land, which is in the name of his |\n| 8 | wife; Golden Spring's in the name of his son; HCHK and Ace |\n| 9 | Decade, which are of course in the names of Ms. Wang; Mr. |\n| 10 | Barnett is just another in this line. |\n| 11 | And of course the property itself matches the |\n| 12 | pattern of what the debtor buys.
It is opulent.
It is |\n| 13 | expensive.
And it's filled with showy items intended to |\n| 14 | show his wealth despite telling this court that he has none. |\n| 15 | Now, even after his arrest, he has continued to |\n| 16 | use this property for his benefit.
Another factor that the |\n| 17 | courts look to when looking at equitable ownership, is he |\n| 18 | getting a benefit?
He did it before.
And even after being |\n| 19 | arrested for the first time, he said, well, now my |\n| 20 | followers, the NFSC, you come in, you can use it, he is |\n| 21 | gaining a benefit from that.
He's getting publicity.
It |\n| 22 | appears he is using it through these sales of G Club premium |\n| 23 | memberships to try to get more people to continue to fund |\n| 24 | money to him.
This is something to his benefit. |\n| 25 | We've seen the videos, Exhibits 21 and 26, where |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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182 |\n| 1 | his followers openly describe how it is the debtor who |\n| 2 | picked out the property, purchased the property, went |\n| 3 | through the property, made all the choices, that's not the |\n| 4 | words of the Trustee.
Those are his followers.
That's what |\n| 5 | is being put out there. |\n| 6 | Now, the Taurus Fund, also it should be noted when |\n| 7 | we're looking at the issue of alter ego, Your Honor, clearly |\n| 8 | is not following corporate formalities.
It's in default. |\n| 9 | Why did it go into default?
Because it failed to disclose |\n| 10 | who its managers were, to provide any signatures.
Not |\n| 11 | surprisingly, what don't they want people to know?
Who's |\n| 12 | behind it. |\n| 13 | But they're not following corporate formalities. |\n| 14 | And if they not willing to do even that minimal thing, the |\n| 15 | suggestion that they can be entrusted with this extremely |\n| 16 | valuable asset I think really begs incredulity. |\n| 17 | At this point, Your Honor, I want to turn to the |\n| 18 | likelihood that the estate can suffer irreparable harm if we |\n| 19 | don't get this relief. |\n| 20 | Quite simply, this is a recipe for significant and |\n| 21 | unrecoverable losses if this PI is not in place.
This is a |\n| 22 | unique and valuable asset.
The home itself is a National |\n| 23 | Historic Record.
Damage to this property -- while damage to |\n| 24 | any property is significant, one on the historical record |\n\nraises significant issues of whether there is any way to\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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183 |\n| 1 | compensate that loss or whether it can be fixed. |\n| 2 | More importantly, we see it is filled with |\n| 3 | valuable assets, from the art work, from the claims that |\n| 4 | there is allegedly antiques in there worth more than the |\n| 5 | whole house.
Your Honor, I have never been in the house.
I |\n| 6 | don't think anyone from our side has.
I can't tell you how |\n| 7 | much they are. |\n| 8 | What I do know is there's a quarter million |\n| 9 | dollars in mirrors and a table in there.
And this is 21- |\n| 10 | room, bedroom house.
They need a lot of mirrors and a lot |\n| 11 | of tables for that house.
So ne can only begin to speculate |\n| 12 | how much money is in these assets. |\n| 13 | What's our second factor for a disaster here?
We |\n| 14 | have unnamed and unnamed individuals who have been vested |\n| 15 | with the control of the dissipated assets.
The only person, |\n| 16 | human person, who anyone knows about tied to this is Mr. |\n| 17 | Barnett, who I'll note, Your Honor, seems to be the one |\n| 18 | person that Mr. Conway doesn't represent. |\n| 19 | Instead, it is a fund, which is now defunct, which |\n| 20 | has two managers, who are now trustees, one of whom is Mr. |\n| 21 | Barnett who seemingly hasn't spoken to Mr. Conway about |\n| 22 | this, and the other one is Taurus Management, who again no |\n| 23 | one knows who's behind it. |\n| 24 | The idea that someone could be held accountable or |\n| 25 | someone can be responsible in that instance is just not |\n| | |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 184 plausible. Now, what's our third thing? We have hundreds of unknown and likely judgment-proof individuals to be honest coming and going through the property. They have -- they're not owners. They don't have a vested interest in maintaining the property. And as the Trustee has testified, quite frankly we have a great concern that once they realize that -- fully that the Trustee is coming for this property, their interest may turn the opposite way, which is to primarily focus on making sure the Trustee does not get anything valuable out of it. The chance of loss of assets is very real, whether it's by accident, intentional, an unattended property is ripe for loss. You've heard no testimony from the other side that Mr. Barnett is there every day making sure things are okay or that there is anyone from this alleged owners, that anyone from Taurus Fund, is on the site protecting this, checking who's coming, looking at IDs. It seems to be a free-for-all and there's no indication that any of the people who are alleged owners are there. There's a reason construction projects are -- in unattended and abandoned buildings are guarded, because things can happen. And this is far more valuable than Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 184 of\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 185 something like that. Now, if there is a loss, the chance of recovery quite honestly is minimal. There is no reason to believe that Mr. Barnett, a driver and security guard, has money to reimburse the estate. No one knows who Taurus Management is. And quite frankly, as the Trustee testified, it is our belief that Mr. Kwok is the equitable owner of the Taurus Fund. So going after them for any damage that is done by the people who are there doesn't help us in any way. And as I said, because it is now in default, and the fact that it is now under the care of trustees, my understanding of Nevada law is that it can have the type of distribution of assets and property proceedings one would typically see with a limited liability company that's going out of business, meaning they can just distribute them. They have to be secured. Now, I want to talk for a second about where -- there's been questions about, well, where do we think this comes from? Why do we have any reason to suspect them? Well, because we've seen it over and over, Your Honor. There has been a pattern of dissipation of assets connected to Mr. Kwok. The Ferncliff home that Greenwich Land had was sold after the filing of the bankruptcy despite the fact that they had been served with papers by PAX telling them do Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 185 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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186 |\n| 1 | not sell any property. |\n| 2 | As the Trustee testified, Mei Guo, this summer, |\n| 3 | while the case has been going on, sold a jet.
And when |\n| 4 | asked where it is simply said I gave it to a guy.
I don't |\n| 5 | know where it is. |\n| 6 | G Club and HCHK employees have moved G Club assets |\n| 7 | to the UAE according to the Department of Justice.
And as |\n| 8 | the Trustee testified, Ms. Wang has emptied G Club mailboxes |\n| 9 | of millions of dollars by having people at her direction do |\n| 10 | that. |\n| 11 | The idea that assets can be dissipated is not |\n| 12 | speculation or mere worry, it is a very real concern. |\n| 13 | Before I turn to the balance of the equities, Your |\n| 14 | Honor, I do want to respond to a couple of comments made |\n| 15 | that seemed to suggest that G Club is really in charge here |\n| 16 | and we can feel secure. |\n| 17 | All the dates on the videos you saw, all the |\n| 18 | evidence that shows anyone from the NFSC on this property, |\n| 19 | is all after the debtor's indictment. |\n| 20 | Prior to him being indicted, there's no indication |\n| 21 | that he wanted any of those people in his home.
It was his |\n| 22 | home.
It's where he lived.
He wasn't interested in having |\n| 23 | them as guests.
Once he was incarcerated, he had a |\n| 24 | different use of the property. |\n| 25 | Now, what else happened after the debtor was |\n| | |\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 187 incarcerated? As we heard, G Clubs executives all resigned. Your Honor knows this. We've been here a lot about G Club. And the reason they claimed that they couldn't produce discovery to us in this case is because their CEO, their general counsel, and all their senior management left. So counsel's suggestion that it must be G Club who's inviting all these people to come use the property at the exact same time period that G Club's lawyers are coming into this court saying there's no one from G Club with the ability to make even the simplest decision of complying with the subpoena is just incompatible. They can't have it both ways. G Club has come to this court and said that there was no senior leadership there who could do anything. Counsel can't suggest that those people were there and they're the ones who are managing the property and inviting them in. At this point, Your Honor, I want to turn to the balance of the equities. This is a valuable property that could provide -- help provide a real return for creditors. It is not someone's current home. We are not kicking someone out of where they reside full time. Your Honor, we have a very clear example of how Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 187 of\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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188 |\n| 1 | that can differ. |\n| 2 | Ms. Ngok, Mr. Kwok's wife, continues to reside in |\n| 3 | the home that she has on Taconic Road despite the fact that |\n| 4 | we have a proceeding going on against Greenwich Land.
We |\n| 5 | have no concern that Ms. Ngok will destroy the home or steal |\n| 6 | things from the home in which she's currently living. |\n| 7 | This is not that.
The people in here don't live |\n| 8 | there.
No one knows where they are.
And there's no ability |\n| 9 | to seek recourse from them.
There's no prejudice to the |\n| 10 | defendants in freezing the assets and excluding the NFSC and |\n| 11 | them. |\n| 12 | First of all, there's no indication that Mr. |\n| 13 | Barnett lives in this home.
And an unnamed entity, a |\n| 14 | corporate forum, doesn't need a home.
It's a corporate |\n| 15 | forum. |\n| 16 | Now, the NFSC members have no right to be in this |\n| 17 | house.
They are there because Mr. Kwok on his own decided |\n| 18 | to tell them they could go in.
Well, Mr. Kwok didn't have |\n| 19 | the right to do that.
To the extent it was his asset, it is |\n| 20 | now an asset of the estate.
And that was for Trustee |\n| 21 | Despins to decide how to use that house.
But that's who's |\n| 22 | told them.
You've seen no indication that G Club made an |\n| 23 | announcement or some other -- or Mr. Barnett said please |\n| 24 | come do this. |\n| 25 | The only person who told all these people to come |\n| | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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189 |\n| 1 | there is Mr. Kwok.
He seems to have a harder time dealing |\n| 2 | with the fact that he doesn't control the assets that were |\n| 3 | in his estate, but he doesn't anymore, and it wasn't for him |\n| 4 | to do it. |\n| 5 | And again, Your Honor, I will note that there is |\n| 6 | no indication that he had any interest in having anyone in |\n| 7 | his house prior to his being incarcerated.
That was the |\n| 8 | whole point of it.
You know. |\n| 9 | We didn't realize, know about the Mahwah mansion |\n| 10 | until we were sitting in front of you at that PI hearing the |\n| 11 | day the indictment came down despite our investigation. |\n| 12 | You could be sure that if Mr. Kwok was out there |\n| 13 | broadcasting that he had this house or that he was inviting |\n| 14 | all his members to be there, we would have known about it a |\n| 15 | long time ago. |\n| 16 | Rather, it was his secret.
That's where he lived. |\n| 17 | It's where he kept his personal affects.
And he was hiding |\n| 18 | it despite the fact that he was in a bankruptcy. |\n| 19 | It is only now that he is caught and cannot use it |\n| 20 | that he has decided the next ploy in trying to keep that |\n| 21 | asset from his creditors is to rename it and say, oh, it is |\n| 22 | a headquarters.
It's not.
All the documents you saw |\n| 23 | indicate that it can only be used for a residential purpose. |\n| 24 | No one ever intended for this to be a headquarters.
It was |\n| 25 | intended to be what it says it is, a home, his home. |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 190 of\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
190 |\n|----|----------------------------------------------------------------|\n| 1 | Finally, Your Honor, with regard to the factors, |\n| 2 | whether this is in the public interest, I think that's |\n| 3 | clear.
Providing that creditors be able to get a recovery |\n| 4 | and that the assets that are available not be dissipated |\n| 5 | clearly is in the public interest.
We have real reasons for |\n| 6 | concern that something can happen to it.
We want to make |\n| 7 | sure that doesn't happen. |\n| 8 | Your Honor, before I finish, I just would like to |\n| 9 | touch on the one difference between -- we had a TRO that |\n| 10 | gave a great amount of the protection we needed.
We'd ask |\n| 11 | that everything in the TRO be extended. |\n| 12 | But I do want to also touch on some of the relief |\n| 13 | that maybe wasn't appropriate at the time given the status |\n| 14 | of a TRO, but for the PI, I think is.
Specifically that is |\n| 15 | a direction to the Marshal Service to aid in the enforcement |\n| 16 | of the preliminary injunction to the extent we need it. |\n| 17 | We would love to work with counsel and get his |\n| 18 | client's agreement to exclude these people and to agree that |\n| 19 | they should -- that we don't have to use Marshals.
No one |\n| 20 | wants to do that if we don't have to, Your Honor. |\n| 21 | But if this is going to be a problem, it is just |\n| 22 | not a good situation to ask the Trustee's attorneys or |\n| 23 | agents to try to do this themselves.
We don't want fights. |\n| 24 | We don't want conflicts.
We want this to move along |\n| 25 | peaceably.
And we believe the presence of the U.S. Marshals |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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191 |\n| 1 | is the best way for that to happen. |\n| 2 | That's why we similarly wish to have the keys |\n| 3 | changed, the pads.
We just don't want any question about |\n| 4 | who has access to it. |\n| 5 | We ask that this proposed order be made applicable |\n| 6 | to the high-ranking members of the NFSC, Pamela Si, who's |\n| 7 | also known as Nicole, (indiscernible) Je, (indiscernible) |\n| 8 | Brother.
These are the people we see on the video. |\n| 9 | In the case of Nicole, it's someone Your Honor has |\n| 10 | already made findings about in the PI that has been entered |\n| 11 | into this record. |\n| 12 | We believe these are persons who are -- act in |\n| 13 | concert and participation with the debtor. |\n| 14 | We believe rule 65 provides for this. |\n| 15 | In sum, Your Honor, what we are asking for today |\n| 16 | is not meant to be punitive.
It is meant to preserve |\n| 17 | assets.
And we can't think of any reason why anyone who |\n| 18 | cares about these assets would not want that to happen. |\n| 19 | If Your Honor has any questions, I'm happy to |\n| 20 | answer it. |\n| 21 | THE COURT:
I do not have any questions.
Thank |\n| 22 | you. |\n| 23 | MR. LUFT:
Thank you, Your Honor. |\n| 24 | THE COURT:
Anything further, Attorney Conway? |\n| 25 | MR. CONWAY:
I would just note, Your Honor, that |\n| | |\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 192 of\n\n| 196 |\n|-----|\n| |\n\n| | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023
192 | | | | | |\n|----|---------------------------------------------------------------|--|--|--|--|--|\n| 1 | in the event that you determine that it's appropriate to | | | | | |\n| 2 | enter the requested injunction that there should be a bond | | | | | |\n| 3 | posted by the Trustee in the amount of the value of the | | | | | |\n| 4 | property, which I believe we heard testimony was \\$26 | | | | | |\n| 5 | million, plus the additional assets, which I believe we | | | | | |\n| 6 | heard testimony were about \\$17 million. | | | | | |\n| 7 | THE COURT:
So we don't know what assets are there | | | | | |\n| 8 | right now, Attorney Conway. | | | | | |\n| 9 | MR. CONWAY:
I would agree with that, Your Honor. | | | | | |\n| 10 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Number one. | | | | | |\n| 11 | Number two, the Trustee has requested that he not | | | | | |\n| 12 | be required to post a bond because he doesn't have money in | | | | | |\n| 13 | the estate to post a bond.
So I don't know if you're aware | | | | | |\n| 14 | of that, but I'm just letting you know that that's the | | | | | |\n| 15 | request that's been made. | | | | | |\n| 16 | I understand your request.
I'm just telling you | | | | | |\n| 17 | that's the request that's been made. | | | | | |\n| 18 | And at this point, I had -- I did not require the | | | | | |\n| 19 | posting of the bond in connection with the temporary | | | | | |\n| 20 | restraining order. | | | | | |\n| 21 | So in any event, anything further from anyone | | | | | |\n| 22 | else? | | | | | |\n| 23 | (No response) | | | | | |\n| 24 | THE COURT:
Okay.
So all the evidence has been | | | | | |\n| 25 | submitted.
I'll have to obviously look at the evidence and | | | | | |\n| | | | | | | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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193 |\n| 1 | rule accordingly. |\n| 2 | Some form of a ruling will issue before 2 p.m. |\n| 3 | tomorrow or right around 2 p.m. tomorrow, although we have |\n| 4 | court in the morning too.
But we'll do what is -- I will do |\n| 5 | what is appropriate under the rules and the law and upon a |\n| 6 | review of the evidence. |\n| 7 | So that is the only matter on today's calendar. |\n| 8 | There's no other business that the Court needs to address |\n| 9 | today, so court is adjourned.
Thank you, all. |\n| 10 | ALL COUNSEL:
Thank you. |\n| 11 | (Proceedings concluded at 4:39 p.m.) |\n| 12 | |\n| 13 | |\n| 14 | |\n| 15 | |\n| 16 | |\n| 17 | |\n| 18 | |\n| 19 | |\n| 20 | |\n| 21 | |\n| 22 | |\n| 23 | |\n| 24 | |\n| | |\n| | |\n| | Fiore Reporting and Transcription Service, Inc. |\n\n| | Case 22-50073
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194 | | | | |\n| 1 | | | | | |\n| 2 | I, CHRISTINE FIORE, court-approved | | | | |\n| 3 | transcriber and certified electronic reporter and | | | | |\n| 4 | transcriber, certify that the foregoing is a correct | | | | |\n| 5 | transcript from the official electronic sound recording of | | | | |\n| 6 | the proceedings in the above-entitled matter. | | | | |\n| 7 | | | | | |\n| 8 | | | | | |\n| 9 | August 24, 2023 | | | | |\n| 10 | Christine Fiore, CERT | | | | |\n| 11 | Transcriber | | | | |\n| 12 | | | | | |\n| 13 | | | | | |\n| 14 | | | | | |\n| 15 | | | | | |\n| 16 | | | | | |\n| 17 | | | | | |\n| 18 | | | | | |\n| 19 | | | | | |\n| 20 | | | | | |\n| 21 | | | | | |\n| 22 | | | | | |\n| 23 | | | | | |\n| 24 | | | | | |\n| 25 | | | | | |\n| | | | | | |\n\n| | Case 22-50073 | Doc 2118
Filed 08/24/23 | 196 | Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 | | Page 195 of |\n|----|----------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|---------------------------|----------|-------------|\n| | | | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 | | | 195 |\n| 1 | INDEX | | | | | |\n| 2 | | | | | | |\n| 3 | | | Direct | Cross | Redirect | |\n| 4 | WITNESSES FOR THE | | | | | |\n| 5 | PLAINTIFF TRUSTEE: | | | | | |\n| 6 | | Luc Despins | 8/70 | 110 | 143 | |\n| 7 | | Voir Dire | 34 | | | |\n| 8 | | Luyi Song | 55 | 68 | | |\n| 9 | | | | | | |\n| 10 | | PLAINTIFF TRUSTEE EXHIBITS: | | | ID | REC'D |\n| 11 | 1 | Trustee Certificate of Service | | | 151 | 151 |\n| 12 | 2 | Bergen County Deed | | | 151 | 152 |\n| 13 | 3
Nevada Taurus Fund, LLC Filing | | | | 145 | 147 |\n| 14 | 4
Nevada Sec. of State Website Screenshot | | | | 94 | 95 |\n| 15 | 5 | Email Chain Regarding Kwok Boxes | | | | 110 |\n| 16 | 6 | AIG Insurance Declaration Page | | | | 98 |\n| 17 | 9 | New Mexico Taurus Management, LLC Filing | | | 153 | 154 |\n| 18 | 10 | National Register of Historic Places | | | 155 | |\n| 19 | 11 | Christie's Real Estate Group Listing | | | 11 | 12 |\n| 20 | 12 | LexisNexis Screenshot | | | 96 | 96 |\n| 21 | 13 | Kwok Suit Label | | | 85 | 88 |\n| 22 | 14 | Kwok Personal ID Information | | | 88 | 89 |\n| 23 | 15 | Family Photos | | | 90 | 94 |\n| 24 | 16 | Ferrari Papers | | | 90 | 94 |\n| 25 | 17 | Kwok RX Bottles | | | 91 | 94 |\n\n| | Case 22-50073 | Doc 2118
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196 | Page 196 of | |\n|----|---------------|----------------------------------------------------------------|-------------|-----|\n| | | Despins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 | | 196 |\n| 1 | | EXHIBITS: (Cont'd) | | |\n| 2 | 18 | Photo of Kwok | 91 | 94 |\n| 3 | 19 | Cedric DuPont Antiques Invoice | 91 | 94 |\n| 4 | 20 | Judge Manning PAX Decision | 155 | 157 |\n| 5 | 21 | Video Clips Labeled 9 | 15 | 70 |\n| 6 | 22 | Video Clip Labeled 20 | 15 | 82 |\n| 7 | 23 | Video Clip Labeled 21 | 15 | 84 |\n| 8 | 24 | Video Clip Labeled 22 | 15 | 74 |\n| 9 | 25 | Video Clip Labeled 23 | 15 | 76 |\n| 10 | 26 | Video Clip Labeled 24 | 15 | 78 |\n| 11 | 27 | Video Clip Labeled 25 | 15 | 80 |\n| 12 | 28 | Judge Ostrager PAX Decision | 157 | 158 |\n| 13 | 29 | Department of Justice Kwok Indictment | 158 | 161 |\n| 14 | | | | |\n| 15 | | CLOSING ARGUMENTS: | | |\n| 16 | | By Defendant | | 171 |\n| 17 | | By Plaintiff | | 174 |\n| 18 | | | | |\n| 19 | | | | |\n| 20 | | | | |\n| 21 | | | | |\n| 22 | | | | |\n| 23 | | | | |\n| 24 | | | | |\n| 25 | | | | |\n| | | | | |","body_zh":"美国康涅狄格州联邦破产法院\n布里奇波特分院\n\n关于\t*\t案号 22-50073 (JAM)\n\t*\nHO WAN KWOK（郭文贵）及 GENEVER\t*\nHOLDINGS CORPORATION（Genever 控股公司），\t*\n\t*\n债务人。\t*\nLUC A. DESPINS（卢克·A·德斯平斯），\t*\t对抗程序案号 23-05017\n\t*\n\t*\t康涅狄格州布里奇波特\n原告，\t*\t2023年8月14日\n\t*\n诉\t*\n\t*\nTAURUS FUND, LLC（金牛基金有限责任公司）等，\t*\n\t*\n被告。\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n\t*\n关于临时限制令及初步禁令单方动议的庭审记录\n于尊敬的 JULIE A. MANNING（朱莉·A·曼宁）法官阁下前\n美国联邦破产法官\n\n出庭人员：\n\n代表原告：\nNICHOLAS A. BASSETT, ESQ.（尼古拉斯·A·巴塞特律师）\nAVRAM E. LUFT, ESQ.（阿夫拉姆·E·卢夫特律师）\nPaul Hastings, LLP（保罗·黑斯廷斯律师事务所）\n200 Park Avenue\nNew York, NY 10166\n\nDOUGLAS S. SKALKA, ESQ.（道格拉斯·S·斯卡尔卡律师）\nDENNIS M. CARNELLI, ESQ.（丹尼斯·M·卡内利律师）\nNeubert Pepe & Monteith, P.C.（纽伯特·佩佩与蒙蒂斯律师事务所）\n195 Church Street\nNew Haven, CT 06510\n\n庭审程序通过电子录音记录，记录文本由速记服务机构制作。\nFiore Reporting and Transcription Service, Inc.（菲奥雷记录与转录服务公司）\n4 Research Drive, Suite 402\nShelton, Connecticut 06484\n(203)929-9992\n\n出庭人员：（续）\n第11章受托人：\nLUC A. DESPINS, ESQ.（卢克·A·德斯平斯律师）\n\nPaul Hastings, LLP\n200 Park Avenue\nNew York, NY 10166\n\n代表被告：\nMICHAEL T. CONWAY, ESQ.（迈克尔·T·康威律师）\nLazare Potter Giacovas & Moyle, LLP（拉扎尔·波特·贾科瓦斯与莫伊尔律师事务所）\n747 Third Avenue\nNew York, NY 10017\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 3 页，共 196 页\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund - 2023年8月14日\n3\n（程序于上午11:28开始）\n\n法庭书记员：案号 23-5017，Luc Despins 诉 Taurus Fund, LLC 等。\n\n法官：早上好。请各位为记录说明出庭身份。\n\nDESPINS 先生：早上好，法官阁下。Luc Despins，第11章受托人。\n\nBASSETT 律师：早上好，法官阁下。我是来自 Paul Hastings 的 Nick Bassett，代表第11章受托人。\n\n法官：早上好。\n\nLUFT 律师：早上好，法官阁下。我是 Paul Hastings 的 Avi Luft，代表第11章受托人。\n\n法官：早上好。\n\nSKALKA 律师：早上好，法官阁下。我是来自 Neubert, Pepe and Monteith 的 Douglas Skalka，同样代表第11章受托人。与我一同出庭的是我的合伙人 Dennis Carnelli，他于本周末提交了出庭通知。\n\nCARNELLI 律师：早上好，法官阁下。\n\n法官：早上好。\n\nCONWAY 律师：早上好，法官阁下。我是 Michael Conway，来自 Lazare Potter Giacovas &（听不清）。我刚刚受 Taurus Fund, LLC 和 Taurus Management, LLC 聘请。我理解本案原定为无争议听证会，但我们到庭了。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 4 页，共 196 页\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund - 2023年8月14日\n4\n\n法官：我认为将其安排为无争议听证会，律师，只是因为没有人提交出庭通知。但显然这仍是一场证据听证会。这是一项初步禁令，所以。您今天上午是否有机会提交出庭通知？\n\nCONWAY 律师：没有，法官阁下。我今天上午尝试提交时发现，自本院改用 ECF 系统以来，我尚未提交过文件。因此，我请求他们关联我的两个账户，但在我离开家时，他们尚未完成关联。\n\n法官：好的。您是否获准在康涅狄格州联邦地区法院出庭？\n\nCONWAY 律师：是的。\n\n法官：好的。好的。\n\nCONWAY 律师：自 Shipp 法官在任时起，我就一直在本院执业。\n\n法官：好的。谢谢。\n\n法庭书记员：抱歉。\n\n法官：请继续。\n\n法庭书记员：抱歉。法官阁下，我没有听清 Skalka 律师说与他一同出庭的是谁。\n\nSKALKA 律师：抱歉。\n\n法庭书记员：抱歉。\n\nSKALKA 律师：Carnelli 律师，Dennis Carnelli。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 5 页，共 196 页\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund - 2023年8月14日\n\n1 法庭书记员：\n好的。\n谢谢。\n\n2 CONWAY 律师：\n法官阁下，容我说一句？\n\n3 我想说，我在周五晚上联系了对方律师，\n\n4 当时我意识到我将会受聘，并请求\n\n5 我们联系您并尝试将此事延期，以便我\n\n6 能够实际了解本案的内容。\n\n7 出于显而易见的原因，他们对此不感兴趣。\n\n8 我还想说，我刚刚才收到证物，所以。\n\n10 法官：\n好的。那么 Taurus Fund 是一家 LLC，因此\n\n11 Taurus Fund 中是谁聘请了您？谁有权\n\n12 聘请您？\n\n13 CONWAY 律师：\nTaurus Fund, LLC 是 Taurus Fund S.A. 的一个特殊目的\n\n14 实体，而 Taurus Fund\n\n15 S.A. 的董事聘请了我。\n\n16 法官：\n那是谁？\n\n17 CONWAY 律师：\n是一位名叫 David Fallon 的先生。\n\n18 法官：\nFallon？\n\n19 CONWAY 律师：\n是的。按发音拼写。\n\n20 法官：\nF-A-L-L-O-N？\n\n21 CONWAY 律师：\n是的。\n\n22 法官：\n好的。谢谢。\n\n23 好的。我了解到，今天上午\n\n24 书记员办公室只是想确保\n\n25 证物井然有序。而且显然——\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 6 页，共 196 页\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund - 2023年8月14日\n6\n\n闪存盘中的证物顺序与证物清单不同。没问题。随着听证会进行，我们可以处理好这一问题。但在我们开始初步禁令听证会之前，Despins 受托人，您是否还有任何希望告知法院的事项？\n\nDESPINS 律师：没有，法官阁下。\n\n法官：好的。此外，在——我不知道确切是什么时间，嗯，我想我知道，是上午9:55——我收到了一封由 Henzy 律师在本对抗程序中登记入案的信。各位都看到了吗？\n\nDESPINS 律师：我们看到了，法官阁下。\n\n法官：好的。好的。行。那么请继续。\n\nBASSETT 律师：法官阁下，我可以使用讲台吗？\n\n法官：可以，请。\n\nBASSETT 律师：再次向您道早安，法官阁下。为记录起见，我是来自 Paul Hastings、代表第11章受托人的 Nick Bassett。法官阁下，我想先概述一下我们希望如何提交今天的证据。我预计我们将有一名证人，即第11章受托人，但视听证会的进展情况，可能需要传唤其他证人；不过我预计只有第11章受托人。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 7 页，共 196 页\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund - 2023年8月14日\n7\n\n如法院所知，我认为，受托人已提交一份支持临时限制令及初步禁令动议的宣誓书，该宣誓书已列入案卷。受托人出庭作证时，我很乐意这样做，但我们建议，不让他重复其已在宣誓书中以书面形式提交的内容，而是让他在证人席上将该宣誓书采纳为其直接证言的一部分。随后，我还希望从受托人处取得一些补充性的直接证言。届时，显然我们将使其接受或可供进行任何交叉询问。\n\n此后，我认为在询问受托人期间，我们将处理若干证物，即向法院出示这些证物并请求准许其作为证据。之后，我预计证物清单上还会留有一些我认为无需由证人席上的证人引入的其他证物。然后，正如我们过去所做的那样，我将逐一公布这些证物，或按法院希望我采用的任何方式进行，说明其相关性，处理任何可采性问题，等等。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 8 页，共 196 页\n\nLuc Despins - 直接询问 - Bassett\n8\n\n然后，我预计我们将结束。之后，我的同事 Luft 律师将准备作一份相对简短的结案陈词。\n\n法官：可以。谢谢。\n\nBASSETT 律师：谢谢您，法官阁下。那么，受托人希望传唤受托人本人。\n\n（受托人宣誓。）\n\n法庭书记员：请说明您的姓名和地址，以供记录。\n\n证人：Luc Despins，工作地址为纽约州纽约市 Park Avenue 200号。\n\n法庭书记员：谢谢。\n\nLUC DESPINS，受托人方证人\n\n由 BASSETT 律师直接询问：\n\n问：早上好，Despins 先生。\n\n答：早上好。\n\nBASSETT 律师：法官阁下，我可以走近证人并交给他一份活页夹吗？其中包含他在本案提交的宣誓书副本，我相信该文件为 ECF 5。\n\n法官：当然可以。Taurus Fund 的律师也持有全部文件吗？\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 9 页，共 196 页\n\nLuc Despins - 直接询问 - Bassett\n9\n\nBASSETT 律师：是的，法官阁下。\n\nCONWAY 律师：谢谢。\n\n由 BASSETT 律师询问：\n\n问：Despins 先生，您是否确认该文件是您在本对抗程序中提交、并于 2023年7月11日签署和注明日期的宣誓书？\n\n答：是，我确认。\n\n问：如果您翻到该文件的后一页，那里是否有您的电子签名？\n\n答：有。\n\n问：那里显示的是您的电子签名？抱歉。\n\n答：是。\n\n问：Despins 先生，据您所知，您在该宣誓书中所说的一切是否真实准确？\n\n答：是。\n\n问：您今天坐在这里，是否有任何希望更改该宣誓书的内容？\n\n答：没有。\n\nBASSETT 律师：那么，法官阁下，基于此，为提高效率，我请求准许该宣誓书作为受托人就今天听证会所作直接证言的一部分而被接纳。\n\n法官：律师？\n\nCONWAY 律师：没有异议。\n\nLuc Despins - 直接询问 - Bassett\n10\n\n法官：谢谢。对于该证据要约没有异议，因此我们可以据此继续，Bassett 律师。\n\nBASSETT 律师：非常感谢，法官阁下。\n\n由 BASSETT 律师询问：\n\n问：那么，Despins 先生，今天我想与您讨论几个不同主题，以略作补充您在所提交宣誓书中已经说过的内容。我想讨论的第一个主题，是向您询问一些已提交给法院的证物。\n\nBASSETT 律师：法官阁下，我可以走近证人并交给他一份证物活页夹副本吗？对方律师也持有该副本。\n\n法官：可以。\n\nBASSETT 律师：谢谢。法官阁下，在我们审阅证物时，根据我们过去举行听证会的方式，我假设对法院而言最简单、最方便的做法，是直接从案卷中调出这些证物？\n\n法官：是。\n\nBASSETT 律师：好的。很好。\n\n法官：是的，请。谢谢。\n\n由 BASSETT 律师询问：\n\n问：那么稍后，Despins 先生，我想向您询问清单上标注为视频证物的一些证物，但在此之前，请您注意清单中证物编号 11 的证物。\n\n答：我找到了。\n\nBASSETT 律师：法官阁下，我们进行时，是否可以从案卷中调出该证物？\n\n法官：证物 11 是 Christie’s International Real Estate Group（佳士得国际地产集团）的房源信息吗？\n\nBASSETT 律师：是的，法官阁下。\n\n法官：是的，我们可以调出。\n\nBASSETT 律师：非常感谢。\n\n由 BASSETT 律师询问：\n\n问：那么，Despins 先生，根据您的专业经验、个人经验或两者兼有，您是否了解 Christie’s 是什么？\n\n答：它是一家房地产经纪商。在本案中，它是一家房地产经纪商。\n\n问：好的。您知道我们正在看的这个特定图像是从哪里获得的吗？\n\n答：从其网站获得。\n\n问：好的。该图像中有一张住宅照片。其下方有一段描述，其中写道，除其他内容外，引述：“世界上宏伟而罕有的庄园之一”，并继续写道。其顶部还标有一项成交价格 $26\n\n100万。\n\n此处所列地址，德斯平斯先生，675 Ramapo Valley Road，您熟悉该地址吗？\n\n答 是的。那是该豪宅的地址。\n\n问 那是本院审理的对抗程序所涉豪宅的地址吗？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 谢谢。\n\n巴塞特先生：那么，法官阁下，我们拟将此提交为证据。为明确起见，并为协助法院，提交该特定证物的目的仅在于使案卷中留存该豪宅的图片。\n\n法院：可以。\n\n律师，有异议吗？\n\n康威先生：只要限定于该目的，我们没有异议。\n\n法院：谢谢。\n\n那么，原告证物11作为完整证物予以采纳。\n\n巴塞特先生：谢谢，法官阁下。\n\n（受托人证物11已收为证据）\n\n巴塞特先生问：\n\n问 如我所说，德斯平斯先生，接下来我想就若干被标明为视频证物的证物向您提问。在此之前，我想请您简要回顾一下摆在您面前的宣誓陈述书，该文件同样载于 ECF 5。\n\n答 我找到了。\n\n问 在您的宣誓陈述书第4段中，第二句开头如下；您在此谈及起诉状的附件，但您说：“我了解到，起诉状中提及的某些证物，具体而言是证物12、13和16，已按起诉状所定义的方式在视频闪存驱动器上提供给法院，这些视频系应 Paul Hastings（保尔·黑斯廷斯）人员指示从互联网下载，随后补充了由律师提供的英文译文。”您看到了吗？\n\n答 正确。第4段，是的。\n\n问 那么，您能否向法院稍作更详细说明，您所说的指示 Paul Hastings 人员截取某些视频，具体是指您做了什么？\n\n答 当然。如法官阁下所知，在本案中，大量证据来自债务人或债务人的关联方或其控制实体在社交媒体上的发布内容，因此，这通常——我不会说是最佳来源，但在某些情况下可能是唯一可得的证据来源。我所做的是指示团队查找并审阅有关该豪宅、债务人与该豪宅之间关系，或者债务人的卫星实体与该豪宅之间关系的互联网发布内容，这就是此处所指的内容。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 14 of\n\n吕克·德斯平斯（Luc Despins）—直接询问—巴塞特\n\n问 该团队是自行完成此事，还是得到技术人员协助？\n\n答 是的。因此，他们使用了一家我们用于证据开示项目的服务供应商，名为 UnitedLex（联合律法）。该公司也提供同样的服务，即——如果法官阁下还记得，GuidePost（指南针）的人员曾在12月就初步禁令作证；那位证人说明了其如何能够截取某一 URL、某一网站的图像，并认证提交给法官阁下的发布内容，事实上与互联网上现有的内容，或者视具体证物而定曾经在互联网上存在的内容相同。因此，团队也使用并依赖 UnitedLex 来完成该项工作。\n\n问 再次回到第4段，您谈到的是随起诉状提交的某些视频证物。您是否让助理律师与 UnitedLex——Paul Hastings 人员与 UnitedLex 合作，对受托人证物清单中摆在您面前的任何证物执行同样程序？\n\nFiore Reporting and Transcription Service, Inc.（菲奥雷记录与转录服务公司）\n\n答 正确。完全相同的程序。\n\n问 好的。如果您查看该清单中的证物21至27，我相信其中每一份证物的标题均以“视频证物”开头？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 您刚才说明的该程序，是否按照您的指示对其中每一份证物均予遵循？\n\n答 是的。\n\n问 现在，除按照您的指示由人员以您所述方式截取视频外，这些视频还具有可在线访问的相应 URL 链接，这是您的理解吗？\n\n答 正确。它们标示在每个证物编号下方。\n\n问 在证物清单中？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 您是否亲自访问过这些链接，并观看了这些链接中的视频？\n\n答 是的。我今早看过。\n\n问 那么，您今早观看了证物21至27中的每一段视频？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 您还在宣誓陈述书中提到，随起诉状附具的某些视频附有由律师完成的译文。您这是什么意思？\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 15 of\n\n吕克·德斯平斯—直接询问—巴塞特\n\n答 我们很幸运，因为大多数视频由发布者在 New Federal State of China（新中国联邦）或 GETTR（盖特尔）平台下提供了英文译文。但是，如果我记得正确，有一个案件，即证物21，其中的视频全部为普通话。因此，我请律所内一名会说普通话的助理律师先听取并翻译，以便我们知道其中说了什么；但在她口头下载该视频内容之后，我请她将视频的某些片段译成英文，以便法院和利害关系方知道其中说了什么。顺便说一句，该译文不在我今早点击查看的文件中，因为那本质上是自行制作的。\n\n问 对。对。那么，那些译文随后是叠加在视频上，还是如何处理的？\n\n答 是的。正是如此。是的。\n\n问 因此，当我们观看时，如果观看所截取的视频，其中会在某些部分显示译文？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 好的。我想请您注意证物——您文件夹中的证物21插页。\n\n巴塞特先生：如果法院能够将其显示在屏幕上，我们将不胜感激。哦，抱歉。我起初是请求能否仅将实际的证物21 PDF 插页显示在屏幕上。之后，我们将播放实际视频片段。\n\n法院：是指写有“证物21”的那一页吗？\n\n巴塞特先生：是的，法官阁下。\n\n法院：也就是说，是 PDF 的封面页？\n\n巴塞特先生：在案卷中。\n\n法院：是的。\n\n康威先生：法官阁下，在此进行期间，我尚未看过任何视频，我不想打断展示，但我要说明，当我们进入显然将要播放视频的阶段时，我将以缺乏基础及传闻证据为由提出异议。\n\n法院：好的。谢谢。\n\n巴塞特先生：如果您能——\n\n法院：好的。巴塞特律师，这是封面页，正确吗？这就是您要找的吗？\n\n巴塞特先生：是的。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 17 of\n\n吕克·德斯平斯—直接询问—巴塞特\n\n法院：好的。\n\n巴塞特先生：是的，法官阁下。如果我们能转到第二页，请。\n\n巴塞特先生问：\n\n问 那么，德斯平斯先生，当您点击证物21的链接时，您是否被带到这个网站？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 那个带有图片的方框或长方形框，就是视频吗？\n\n答 是的。\n\n问 如法院非常熟悉的那样，我们在本案此前的庭审中已经相当多地讨论过 GETTR 网站和 GETTR 账户。德斯平斯先生，您理解 GETTR 是什么？\n\n答 它是一个社交平台，就像——现在它叫 X。它叫什么来着？\n\n问 原称 Twitter 的平台？\n\n答 正是。原称 Twitter，正是。它是像 Twitter 一样的社交平台。\n\n问 明白。您是根据在本案中的经验而熟悉 GETTR 的？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 这里在您所说代表视频的方框下方，显示 NFSCTV，旁边还有一个红色勾选标记；您能否提醒法院一下——因为这也是此前证词和法院认定的事项——您理解这表示什么？\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\n吕克·德斯平斯—直接询问—巴塞特\n\n答 它表示 New Federal State of China TV（新中国联邦电视台）。\n\n问 这类似于他们的 GETTR 页面？\n\n答 正确。带有该红色勾选标记，表示它是来源，是的。经验证的来源。\n\n问 您理解 New Federal State of China 是什么？\n\n答 它是一个组织。我认为它不像公司或类似实体那样具有法律地位，但它是一个由——如法院所认定——债务人创立并由债务人控制的组织。\n\n巴塞特先生：好的。此时，法官阁下，正如您从图像中所见，这是一段36分钟30秒的视频。我们将免去法庭内各位观看整段36分钟视频的麻烦。我们制作了11个单独片段；在观看这些片段后，我将询问受托人，它们是否确实准确地反映了他在线查看该视频时所观看内容的片段。但我们将向法院播放这些片段。我认为，播放时视频的关联性将不言自明。之后，我拟将这些视频片段连同该插页一并作为证据提交。我也乐于回应律师表示拟就可采性提出的论点。\n\n法院：律师，请提出您的论点。您的异议。\n\n康威先生：到目前为止，我们尚未听到任何为该视频奠定基础的内容，例如它如何制作、由谁制作。我相信受托人表示，该译文是由他以外的某人制作，这并不令人意外，但我不知道那个人是谁。听起来像是其办公室的某个人，而非经认证的译员，因此对于译文的准确性没有任何基础。显然，该视频中的任何内容均属庭外陈述，构成传闻证据。再次抱歉，法官阁下，我没有看过任何视频，否则我可能能够就某些事项达成约定，但我尚未看过。\n\n巴塞特先生：那么，法官阁下，我将逐一回应这些要点。首先，我想——只是为了记录澄清——我完全理解并体谅该律师刚刚接手本案。听起来他刚刚受聘。他确实在周五与我们联系，正如——\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 20 of\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 21 of\n\n吕克·德斯平斯—直接询问—巴塞特\n\n1 他表示询问我们是否愿意延期。\n\n2 您知道，此后他没有联系法院。\n\n3 其当事人未提交任何异议。\n\n4 正如受托人将作证所述，并且正如我们的\n\n5 送达证明将显示的那样，他们已被适当送达，\n\n6 符合《联邦破产程序规则》。\n\n7 因此，在我们看来，他们的答复期限已经届满。\n\n8 显然，我理解律师今天正在此接受陈述，\n\n9 但我只是想明确，受托人方面没有试图\n\n10 使任何人措手不及。我们今天将要审阅的所有视频，\n\n11 我相信，均为起诉状的证据附件，而我们同样\n\n12 已对其进行了送达，所以我不希望记录中对于\n\n13 被告已收到今日听证通知一事存在任何混淆\n\n14 或不明确之处。\n\n15 \n\n16 关于具体证据事项，首先是证据基础。\n\n17 我认为律师所说的是，没有说明\n\n18 是谁制作了该视频。\n\n19 法官阁下，受托人刚刚已作证，对于该证词\n\n20 没有提出异议，至于——而且，再次说明，这是\n\n21 基于法院已经作出的认定——我理解律师在本案\n\n22 进行至该阶段时尚未参与，但在 PAX（PAX）诉讼中\n\n23 关于抗议活动的临时禁令听证会上，曾有大量\n\n24 证词涉及 GETTR（GETTR）、GETTR 是什么及其如何运作。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 22 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 22\n\n受托人作证称，他熟悉该平台。他访问过该页面。他知道 NFSCTV（NFSCTV）是什么意思。他知道这是一个账户。我认为，根据他所述这些视频如何从网上截取并保存的过程，再结合受托人称其亲自访问过的图像非常清楚地表明，发布该视频的账户所有人为 NFSCTV 组织这一事实，就今日临时禁令听证会而言，已足以建立证据基础。视频一经播放，其内容与相关性的关系将不言自明。关于翻译，我要提出的第二点是，我们可以在看到视频时再谈，即受托人指示进行这些翻译的人员今天实际上就在法庭内。如绝对必要，我们可以传唤她出庭作证，证明视频中译文的准确性，并回答律师可能提出的任何问题。她是一名出生于中国、以普通话为母语的人士，同时英语流利，完全有能力完成这些翻译。因此，如有必要——尽管我们认为没有必要——我们可以为此目的让她出庭作证。最后，关于传闻证据，我认为首先，\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 23 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 法院需要先观看这些视频，以了解视频中的陈述是否\n\n2 实际上属于为证明所主张事项真实性而提出的\n\n3 传闻陈述。\n\n4 撇开这一点不谈，无论如何，第二巡回区已有确立，\n\n5 我会说是毫无疑义的，法律规定，\n\n6 在临时禁令程序中，法院可以考虑\n\n7 传闻证据。这是 Mullins（马林斯）案，我会提供\n\n8 引证出处，Mullins v. City of New York（马林斯诉纽约市案）, 626 F.3d.\n\n9 47, Second Circuit 2010。我们在此前的\n\n10 听证中引用过此案。\n\n11 第二巡回区认定，鉴于临时禁令听证会的简易\n\n12 性质，并鉴于其发生于诉讼之初，\n\n13 法院可以考虑并可以将传闻证据\n\n14 采纳为证据，仅此而已。\n\n15 法院指出，在\n\n16 临时禁令阶段，任何被纳入记录的传闻证据\n\n17 影响的是证据的证明力，\n\n18 而非其可采性。\n\n19 因此，基于所有这些理由，法官阁下，我确实认为\n\n20 这些视频可以采纳。我认为法院一旦\n\n21 观看，便会认定其具有高度相关性。我们\n\n22 据此请求继续进行，法官阁下。\n\n23 法院：好的。谢谢。\n\n24 律师，还有其他事项吗？\n\n25 康韦先生：我只是想说，法官阁下，我\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 24\n\n当然不认为他们故意试图避免向我提供证据附件。这是时间安排的问题。我还要指出，传闻证据问题——如果缺乏证据基础，未能建立说明这些视频如何制作的证据基础——将从根本上改变传闻证据能否被采纳的问题。知道某人作出了陈述并允许该陈述作为证据，和完全不知道该视频是否真实、是否具有任何准确性、现在却要允许其作为证据，是两回事。因此，允许采纳传闻证据之间存在关联。我不认为，如律师所述，它可以采纳，仅此而已。我认为他们必须建立证据基础，说明该传闻证词为何具有某种正当的证据基础。法院：谢谢。巴塞特先生，您要回应吗？巴塞特先生：我只想说，法官阁下，我认为无论是否涉及传闻证据问题，我都已经处理了证据基础问题。而且，再次说明，我们此前已在本案中广泛处理过这一问题。为完善今日记录，我让受托人重复了此前已经给出的部分证词，即 GETTR 是什么、有人向 GETTR 账户发布内容意味着什么、NFSCTV 是谁。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 24 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 25\n\n我认为，就今日简易程序而言，以受托人已作出的证词为视频建立证据基础，已绰绰有余。我认为我们可以播放这些视频。如果律师认为这些视频可能被篡改，他可以提出该论点，而这可能影响其证明力，但我看不出法院有任何理由不应考虑这些视频，正如法院此前以完全相同的方式所做的那样，尤其包括我先前提到的 PAX 临时禁令听证会。法院：好的。律师，还有其他事项吗？康韦先生：没有，法官阁下。法院：驳回你的异议。我将为记录注明你的异议。康韦先生：谢谢，法官阁下。法院：谢谢。巴塞特先生：那么，如可请求法院，请法庭书记员播放片段一。并且，这将是——法官阁下正确指出，我们提交的证据编号与我们提供的 U 盘上证据标签之间确有一些不一致，因此，U 盘上的 Exhibit 21 实际标注为 Exhibit 9。我们希望播放 Exhibit 9 的 11 个短片段。我将\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 25 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 26\n\n从片段一开始。\n\n（Exhibit 21，片段一，已播放）\n\n巴塞特先生：好的，这就是第一个片段的结束。\n\n巴塞特先生询问：\n\n问 在我继续播放下一个片段之前，我想问受托人，我们刚才看到的这个片段，是否属于您所说今晨通过点击证据中的链接上网观看的视频的一部分？\n\n答 是。\n\n法院：我仅为记录注明，看起来该视频片段，即第一号片段，时长为一分五十一秒。巴塞特先生，对吗？\n\n巴塞特先生：正确，法官阁下。\n\n法院：好的。谢谢。\n\n巴塞特先生：如可请求法庭书记员现在播放片段二。\n\n（Exhibit 21，片段二，已播放）\n\n巴塞特先生：为记录起见，法官阁下，该视频，即片段二，时长为 53 秒。\n\n巴塞特先生询问：\n\n问 德斯潘受托人，除我们在该视频底部、于视频部分时段所看到的译文外，该片段是否也是您今晨点击\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 26 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 27\n\n链接时所看到的那部更长的 36 分钟视频的一部分？\n\n答 是。\n\n巴塞特先生：请播放下一个片段，片段三。\n\n（Exhibit 21，片段三，已播放）\n\n巴塞特先生：接下来我们将播放片段四。法官阁下，在我播放完这些片段时，我想请求——因为我认为这尚未正式完成——请求将 Exhibit 21、该说明页以及这些视频片段采纳为证据。我现在提出这一点，是因为我原计划在最后提出。但如果法院希望在每个片段播放后进行，我也可以那样做。\n\n法院：我认为在最后进行即可。\n\n巴塞特先生：好的。请播放片段四。\n\n（Exhibit 21，片段四，已播放）\n\n巴塞特先生：法官阁下，第四个片段时长为一分二十七秒。我想为记录注明的一点是，所有这些片段在右上角均标有日期戳，即 April 12th, 2023。\n\n巴塞特先生询问：\n\n问 德斯潘受托人，该片段是否也是您今晨在网上观看的视频的一部分？\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 27 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 28\n\n答 是。\n\n问 同样，除译文外？\n\n答 正确。\n\n巴塞特先生：请播放片段五。\n\n（Exhibit 21，片段五，已播放）\n\n巴塞特先生询问：\n\n问 德斯潘受托人，除任何译文外，该片段是否也是您今晨在网上观看该视频时所看到的片段？\n\n答 是。\n\n巴塞特先生：请播放片段六。\n\n（Exhibit 21，片段六，已播放）\n\n巴塞特先生询问：\n\n问 同样的问题，德斯潘受托人，这也是您在网上观看的视频的一部分吗？\n\n答 是。\n\n问 谢谢。\n\n巴塞特先生：请播放片段七。\n\n（Exhibit 21，片段七，已播放）\n\n巴塞特先生询问：\n\n问 德斯潘受托人，该视频也是您今晨在网上观看的更长视频的一部分吗？\n\n答 是。因为我记得看到了那里场地周围的所有艺术作品。\n\n问 谢谢。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 28 页，共\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 29 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 29\n\n1 巴塞特先生：请播放片段八。\n\n2 （Exhibit 21，片段八，已播放）\n\n3 巴塞特先生询问：\n\n4 问 德斯潘受托人，我们观看的这个片段八，\n\n5 是否也是您今晨在网上观看的视频的一部分？\n\n6 答 是。\n\n7 问 同样，除译文外？\n\n8 答 正确。\n\n9 巴塞特先生：请播放片段九。\n\n10 （Exhibit 21，片段九，已播放）\n\n11 巴塞特先生询问：\n\n12 问 德斯潘受托人，我们刚刚观看的第九号\n\n13 片段，是否也是您通过证据清单链接在网上观看的\n\n14 视频的一部分？\n\n15 答 是。\n\n16 问 同样，不含译文？\n\n17 答 正确。\n\n18 巴塞特先生：请播放片段十。\n\n19 （Exhibit 21，片段十，已播放）\n\n20 巴塞特先生询问：\n\n21 问 德斯潘受托人，我们刚刚观看的片段十，同样\n\n22 除译文外，该片段是否也是您今晨通过链接在网上\n\n23 观看的视频的一部分？\n\n24 \n\n25 答 正确。\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 30\n\nBASSETT先生：最后，请播放片段十一。（播放证物21，片段十一）\n\nBASSETT先生：法官阁下，就这一特定片段而言，我有两点想向法院强调，因为它们将与我们稍后看到的某些证物的相关性相联系，我只是想确保将此标记在案。第一，在该视频的译文部分提到，为该住宅购买了古董。我只是想指出这一点。再次强调，我们稍后会回到这一点。然后，我还想指出，其中提到该住宅内有一处郭先生本人过去曾进行直播的地点。我们也会稍后回到这一点。因此，我只是想将此标记在案。\n\n由BASSETT先生询问：\n\n问：Despins受托人，这个片段十一是否也是您在网上观看的较长视频的一部分？\n\n答：是的。\n\n问：同样，不包括译文？\n\n答：正确。\n\nBASSETT先生：那么，法官阁下，这些就是我们拟作为证物21的一部分提交的全部片段。正如我先前所说明的，此时我请求准许将证物21纳入证据。\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第30页，共\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 包括显示该视频在GETTR上的原始位置的封面页，\n2 以及这11个片段中的每一个。\n3 法院：\n律师？\n4 CONWAY先生：\n是。首先，我想重申几项\n5 异议。但在此之前，我对这些证物不够熟悉。\n6 \n7 律师是否说过，他准备了书面\n8 文字记录并附在某处，因为我没有\n9 看到它们；如果它们与我们在屏幕上看到的内容不同，\n10 那会有所不同。\n11 BASSETT先生：\n我没有这么说，法官阁下。我们\n12 并没有每个视频的完整译文。\n13 如我所说，整个视频长达36分钟。\n14 我很乐意请受托人概括说明，\n15 该视频其余部分发生了什么。我认为\n16 他会告诉您，这是一段对该住宅进行参观的36分钟\n17 视频。\n18 我们认为，对整段视频制作完整文字记录并翻译，\n19 既不是对时间或资源的良好利用，\n20 也并无必要。其中一个原因是，\n21 我们理解，鉴于已收到通知的被告\n22 未作回应，今天的听证会将不会存在\n23 争议。\n24 如果律师希望翻译所播放片段中\n25 尚未翻译的特定部分，我们有一位以普通话为母语的同事\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 32 在法庭内。我们可以进行该项工作。我认为那将导致听证会冗长。但我认为，没有必要借此证明我们已向法院播放并翻译的视频部分，显然与法院今日审理的听证事项相关。\n\nCONWAY先生：律师误解我的意思了。我没有指控任何人任何事情。我想知道是否附有任何译文，因为我所看到的只是对部分谈话内容的翻译。我以为自己可能遗漏了什么。在这种情况下，我请求准许我就该证物对证人进行可能三项问题的审前资格询问。\n\n法院：对Despins先生？\n\nCONWAY先生：是。\n\n法院：律师，您有异议吗？\n\nBASSETT先生：我当然不反对律师对Despins受托人进行交叉询问。我不知道该提问会具有什么相关性。我并不是说Despins受托人对这些视频的内容具有任何亲身知情。他的证言是，他指示Paul Hastings（保罗·黑斯廷斯律师事务所）的人员按照其指示取得并保存这些视频。\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第32页，共\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—审前资格询问—Conway（康威）\n\n1 并保存这些视频。法院已驳回\n2 先前就该证言提出的异议。\n3 \n4 所以我不知道律师的意图是什么，但\n5 再次强调，我显然不反对对该证人进行\n6 交叉询问。\n7 法院：\n嗯，他现在并不想对他进行交叉询问。\n8 他想对他进行审前资格询问。这是有\n9 区别的，对吗？\n10 那么，您的问题是什么？您想\n11 向Despins先生问什么，以便我能够理解您\n12 询问的要点是什么？\n13 CONWAY先生：\n谢谢，法官阁下。\n14 我有三个问题。当然，在这个领域，\n15 最后总会变得更多。但我想问三个\n16 问题。\n17 第一，他是否知道该男士\n18 在视频中所传达的信息来自何处？第二，他是否\n19 知道该女士在视频中所传达的信息来自何处？\n20 第三，为什么我们没有看到完整\n21 译文？\n22 法院：\n我将允许——我将允许\n23 律师问这三个问题，Bassett律师。好吗？\n24 BASSETT先生：\n当然。\n25 法院：\n那么请继续。您何不来到\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—审前资格询问—Conway（康威）\n\n1 讲台前片刻，然后您可以向Despins先生\n2 提出那三个问题。好吗？\n3 CONWAY先生：\n谢谢，法官阁下。\n4 审前资格询问\n5 由CONWAY先生询问\n6 问：\n先生，您已经听到了我的三个问题。让我先从\n7 第一个开始。您是否知道这段\n8 视频中的男士从何处获得他在视频中传达的信息？\n9 答：\n来自郭先生。\n10 问：\n依据是什么？\n11 答：\n因为他是由郭先生任命的。左边的那位\n12 男士被郭先生任命为其代表，负责管理其卫星实体，\n13 在郭文贵入狱期间\n14 负责管理这些实体。\n15 问：\n好的。这段视频中的女士，您是否知道\n16 她从何处获得有关该住宅的信息？\n17 答：\n我知道她是郭先生的发言人，因为\n18 我在许多其他视频中看到她评论本案、\n19 评论受托人的活动等等。因此，我知道她是——\n20 她是郭文贵的事实上的代表，但我不确切知道\n21 郭文贵是否向她传达了该信息。\n22 问：\n换言之，您没有就这段视频询问过这些人？\n23 \n24 答：\n没有，我没有。没有。\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—审前资格询问—Conway（康威）\n\n1 问：\n第三个问题是关于翻译。我们看到视频的某些部分\n2 被翻译，但其他部分没有，\n3 这是为什么？\n4 答：\n嗯，因为我想Bassett先生已经说明了。您\n5 知道，对这些内容进行完整翻译将耗费巨资。\n6 因此，我确实要求我们的普通话使用者\n7 确保他们不会在一句话中说，是的，他\n8 买了这栋房子，而在下一句话中实际又说，\n9 不，他没有买这栋房子。因此，我显然希望确保\n10 这些摘录能够代表该讨论内容，\n11 而不是某些异常内容。因此，这一点我曾要求确认。\n12 但是，让她对36分钟内容进行完整\n13 翻译将花费数千又数千美元，\n14 而该财产的资金有限。\n15 因此，只要我能够确保——能够确认\n16 视频能够代表他们所说的内容，而不是\n17 仅仅脱离上下文截取的声音片段，并且这是她向我作出的\n18 说明，您知道，对我而言，\n19 这已足够。\n20 因为否则，如果我们——在本案中，如果我们\n21 开始翻译我们收到的所有普通话内容，\n22 本案将持续十年。我的意思是，我们每天都收到普通话\n23 文件、普通话电子邮件，因此这根本\n24 不可能。这就是为什么我们采取一些简化做法。此处的\n25 简化做法是，确保我们所讨论的内容是\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 36 相关的。其中有许多内容，她告诉我并不相关。例如，他们描述了一个办公室、办公场所等等。您知道，这很有意思，但与我们的问题并非真正相关。因此，她翻译的内容与我们关于所有权的问题相关，并且还确保，我们方面获得了否定性保证，即其中没有任何内容\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第36页，共\n\nCONWAY先生：我现在可以在座位上陈述我的异议吗？\n\n与我们播放的那些片段相反。\n\n法院：当然可以。谢谢。\n\nCONWAY先生：法官阁下，我将以基础不足为由重申异议。看来这些证人并未被询问过。他并不确切知道他们如何获得其信息。\n\n但是，正如我们刚才所见，多次——而且我可以告诉您，是在片段三、四、五、六、七、八和十中——一方提出的问题或陈述被翻译，而答复却没有被翻译。\n\n而我们刚刚从Despins先生处听到的是，他要求只翻译与受托人立场相关的内容。我们不知道是否存在与受托人立场相反、但未被翻译的内容。\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯潘）诉Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 因此，这就是我的基础不足异议，法官阁下。\n2 法院：\n谢谢。\n3 Bassett律师？\n4 BASSETT先生：\n那么，法官阁下，有几点回应。\n5 \n6 首先，关于翻译问题，如果律师想要解决可能出现的任何问题，\n7 他本可以自由地自行带一名翻译人员参加本次\n8 听证会。\n9 其次，正如我已经说过，如果绝对\n10 必要，我们有进行这些\n11 翻译的人员在法庭内。\n12 最后，我想说的是——顺便说一下，我认为对受托人证言的\n13 概述也并非——并非准确，因为律师\n14 似乎暗示，我们故意试图隐瞒\n15 与我们在本诉讼中所持立场相反的\n16 信息。我认为受托人说的是\n17 相反的内容。\n18 法院：\n嗯，我不认为他是这么说的。\n19 我不认为他说过你们掌握\n20 相反的信息。我认为他所说的是，至少\n21 我所听到的是，他的异议，其中一项\n22 异议，是因为某些说出的词语被翻译了，\n23 而某些说出的词语没有被翻译。\n24 是这样吗，律师？\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯潘）诉Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 CONWAY先生：\n正确，法官阁下。我\n2 当然无意质疑证人的品格。\n3 法院：\n我并未如此理解。但我认为\n4 这正是所提出的要点。\n5 而且，您知道，我认为您可能需要传唤\n6 翻译人员，因为这些视频中有——有一些部分，\n7 我确实看到两人中的一人——他们尚未被确认身份——在说话，\n8 然后另一个人\n9 说了些什么，而这似乎，至少对我而言，\n10 没有被翻译。\n11 BASSETT先生：\n当然。\n12 法院：\n所以我只是想弄清楚。如果\n13 我们只使用这11个片段，那么我认为它们\n14 需要被翻译。\n15 BASSETT先生：\n所以，如我所说，进行翻译的人员\n16 在法庭内。她完全有资格\n17 告诉我们这些视频中另外还说了什么，\n18 因此我们——我们当然可以这样做。\n19 在进行该事项之前，我还想再次回应\n20 所提出的基础不足论点。这些\n21 个人本身并未作为证人向法院提交。\n22 视频可采性的规则并非要求发言人必须\n23 接受交叉询问。\n24 我们已经根据第二巡回区的先例证明，\n25 传闻证据在初步\n\n在禁令阶段，在所传递的信息系为证明所主张事项之真实性而提出的范围内。\n\n我还想指出并提醒法院的是，本院此前在初步禁令听证会上认定，债务人控制 New Federal State of China（新中国联邦）。\n\n今日的证词以未被反驳的方式证实，这些视频确实发布在 New Federal State of China 的 GETTR 页面上。若仔细观察，可以看到右侧女士手持的麦克风带有 New Federal State of China 的标志。\n\n法官：实际上我在我的屏幕上看不到那个，所以你能否——\n\n巴塞特先生：我认为——我认为在所有这些视频的过程中您都能看到。\n\n法官：您是说底部有一个——那个方框实质上是这样写的？\n\n巴塞特先生：那是——\n\n法官：您是这么说的吗？\n\n巴塞特先生：据我了解是这样，法官阁下。如果法院——\n\n法官：就在她手的上方？\n\n巴塞特先生：据我了解是这样。显然，法院可就此作出自己的观察。如果\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日\n\n您看不到，那您就看不到。\n\n法官：嗯，我认为我的视频质量不如那个视频的质量。仅此而已。我想如果我从那个屏幕上看，或许能看得更清楚。\n\n巴塞特先生：因此，再次说明，我认为不存在证据基础问题。这些视频已被发布于网上，其真实性不存在疑问。\n\n再重复一次，在本 Chapter 11（第11章）案件中，实质上已有先例或既判案件法，我们已经以完全相同的方式接纳过此类视频。\n\n而且，我们现在已有法院作出的认定，即 New Federal State of China 由债务人控制。我认为，鉴于本次听证会的简易性质以及传闻证据可以采纳，这已绰绰有余，足以允许将这些视频作为证据提交。\n\n这样，我们可以请我们的中文普通话同事出庭作证。我的同事 Luft 律师将负责该项询问。我只是——正在设法确定最有效率的进行方式。\n\n法官：嗯，这——我也是。\n\n巴塞特先生：是。\n\n法官：那么，这是唯一含有需要翻译语言的视频吗？我想这就是你一开始所说的。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日\n\n巴塞特先生：因此，为了就其他视频证物完全公开、清楚地说明，我相信法院将会看到另外三个视频，而我们展示的每个其他视频都只有一个片段。它们短得多，因此不会像这里这样多。\n\n还会有另外三个相对较短的视频，发布在 New Federal State of China 网站上，而不是 GETTR 页面上；这些视频发布时，底部已有中文字符及其中全部内容的英文译文。那不是我们加上的。抱歉，那不是我们加上的。那些原本就在那里。\n\n此外，还有另外两个视频由——或者说发布至债务人 Kwok 先生（郭文贵）的 GETTR 页面；那些是他用普通话向其追随者讲话的直播。我们完全不翻译那些视频。法院看到它们时，我们仅为证明他曾从该房屋发布内容这一事实而提出。因此，我认为那些视频不存在问题，因为我们并未请求将他所说内容的实质作为证据采纳。\n\n因此，我确实认为，唯一的——除非律师希望就其他已经翻译的视频提问；我认为这没有必要，因为\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日 42 它们完全——\n\n法官：嗯，我认为翻译问题没有必要。\n\n巴塞特先生：对。因此，我确实认为现在正是时候。\n\n法官：我也这么认为。我审阅这些材料时的问题是，我只是——在我看来，其中一部分，所作陈述的一部分被翻译了，而不是全部，我只是想了解这一点。\n\n巴塞特先生：明白，法官阁下。\n\n康威先生：法官阁下，我可以说几句吗？\n\n法官：可以。\n\n康威先生：我们休庭时，律师和我可以尝试共同设法找到解决方案。再者，其中一部分原因是，我们在听证会之前没有机会这样做。我们或许可以达成某种安排。\n\n法官：所以你的意思是，在我们请另一位——证人就翻译作证之前，你希望现在讨论此事吗？\n\n康威先生：我们可以这样做，法官阁下。但我要告诉您，我不想打断律师所设想的流程；如果我们希望将此问题推迟到方便的休庭时间，再尝试提出解决方案。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第42页，共\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日 43\n\n我还要指出，法官阁下，在我首次联系律师时，我表示，您知道，Taurus Fund, LLC（金牛基金有限责任公司）不会反对一项禁止其转让此处资产的禁令。\n\n法官：嗯，显然不只是资产。还有该资产及其内容物、场地上的物品以及诸如此类的东西，对吗？\n\n康威先生：而且，法官阁下，我们也同意不设定负担。所提出的问题并不只是同意不转让任何财产，无论是不动产还是动产；问题在于，他们希望将该财产的所有人拒之门外。这是我们在此的唯一原因。我不确定这是否会涉及该问题，但我们无需在该财产是否应受限制的问题上浪费时间，因为那是一个——我认为它已经受到限制。\n\n法官：是的。\n\n康威先生：我的意思是，不只是在本院。\n\n法官：但我想那项限制明天到期。\n\n康威先生：但我的意思是，我认为联邦法院也已对其施加限制。我只是说，我认为没有任何意图试图转移不动产或动产。\n\n法官：但问题是，而且你可能\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第44页，共\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日\n\n是对的，好吧，但根据通过书面材料、起诉状和证物向法院提交的内容，问题在于，有些人正在从——从该房屋中搬走物品，而他们不是 Kwok 先生，或者显然也不是你所代表的人；还有其他人在——我不知道这些人是谁，好吗。他们不是——\n\n这两个人都不是你的当事人，对吗？\n\n康威先生：我不知道他们是谁。\n\n法官：好的。所以，有些指控目前尚未受到争议，即有人进出这座豪宅，带走古董和其他艺术品；这些物品具有价值，且受托人主张其属于 Kwok 先生。若其属于 Kwok 先生，则其为破产财产的一部分，而在本案待决期间，那种情况不能发生。这就是主张。\n\n所以我听到了你所说的。你是说，好吧，我们同意受限制，并且同意我们可以被禁令约束，但这不是问题所在。\n\n问题是，如果你的当事人同意这样做，那么为什么你的当事人不同意，不居住在该住宅内的人不得进入该住宅和/或从该住宅移走物品？\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第45页，共\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日\n\n康威先生：法官阁下，该财产与个人住宅之间的区别在于，该财产供多人出于各种原因使用。它从未打算成为——正如这些视频所显示的，它原本是为 G Clubs（G俱乐部）设立的某种会所，并作为 New Federal State of China 的会议场所。\n\n在美国宪法之下，我们不能告诉人们你们不能进入自己的家这一想法——\n\n法官：嗯，谁说这是他们的家？证据在哪里表明这是他们的家？\n\n康威先生：嗯，我能说的只是，法官阁下，唯一的证据是它是 Taurus Fund 的财产。而该项指控——\n\n法官：但你刚才说这些人不是 Taurus Fund 的人。你刚才就是这么说的，对吗？我直接问过你这个问题，这两人中有任何一人是你的当事人吗，而你说你不知道这些人是谁。\n\n康威先生：我不知道那些人是谁。\n\n法官：好的。\n\n康威先生：而这不是一栋——\n\n法官：那么你的当事人在哪里？\n\n康威先生：——这不是一栋两居室房屋。\n\n法官：我明白。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日\n\n康威先生：这就像白宫。\n\n法官：我认为它——\n\n康威先生：Joe Biden（乔·拜登）并不拥有白宫。\n\n法官：我明白。但问题是，你的当事人在哪里？\n\n康威先生：我的当事人是一只基金，法官阁下。\n\n法官：我明白。但我们都明白其运作方式。你的当事人必须有一个人来管理该基金。\n\n康威先生：而且，考虑到我——通常需要用来准备本次听证会并提交反对意见的时间，我们本可以让证人到场。但鉴于当时情形，我没有那个时间。\n\n法官：但我不明白为什么——你说——一方面你说你会同意受限制，但另一方面你不会阻止并非你的当事人的人进出该财产。你没有来自你的当事人的任何证据表明，其他人可以进出该财产并从该财产移走物品。\n\n在哪里——我没有看到任何来自你的当事人的东西；其为本对抗程序中的被告并受到限制，能够向我表明他们允许这些人进入此处和/或移走——\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日 47\n\n你说当事人拥有该财产。当事人拥有全部艺术品吗？\n\n康威先生：当事人拥有——嗯，我不知道那里有什么艺术品。我知道我看过一份清单——\n\n法官：我明白。\n\n康威先生：——列出他们花钱购买的所有财产。我看过——我看过很多——我的意思是，我不知道——\n\n法官：你的当事人是做什么的？你的当事人的经营目的是什么？\n\n康威先生：您是指该基金吗？\n\n法官：是。\n\n康威先生：该基金从事投资——这取决于你所说的是哪个子基金。但该子基金设立的目的，是投资约 $47 million，该款项由 G Clubs 在其与——之间的一项仲裁中追回；这是一项公开仲裁。我有他们获得这笔款项的裁决书。\n\n法官：好的。\n\n康威先生：他们取得这笔钱。他们将其投入基金。随后该基金购买该房屋，并使用其余资金支付房屋内财产的费用。有指控称，一架钢琴在装修期间被搬出。脚注中还有一项指控称，他们知道那架钢琴在哪里，但他们只是\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第47页，共\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日\n\n1 我没有去查看它在哪里。\n2 因此，你在视频中听到，装修将在该视频之后的某个时候完成，届时\n3 人们将开始进入并使用它。\n4 该房产的用途从来不是让债务人将其作为个人住所居住。\n5 因此，现在所谓里面的一切都是他的、房子\n6 也是他的这种说法——嗯，我们会让受托人提交其\n7 证据。\n8 但我已经看到相反的证据。\n9 而且我不能——您不了解我，法官阁下。\n10 我的意思是，我与受托人合作了数十年。\n11 我们曾共同有过前合伙人。\n12 我向您保证，当我说证据表明这栋房子\n13 属于那些资金被用于购买该房的人时，我没有对您\n14 撒谎。\n15 该请求、该要求，是在现阶段、在没有时间编制证据清单和\n16 证人名单的情况下，证明一个否定事实。\n17 这要求过高。\n18 因此，如果我们有时间，我们很乐意尝试为您这样做，法官阁下。\n\n法庭：但是问题在于，即使你同意限制措施、继续实施限制令，或者就此而言同意初步禁令，它也无法解决受托人提出的问题，即有人进出这所房屋。假定这属实，好吗，他们进出这所房屋并带走有价值的财产。我不明白为什么你的\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日\n\n1 当事人不会同意这一点？\n2 CONWAY 先生：嗯，法官阁下，我们的当事人并不知道有人正在带走财产，因此我们会让受托人证明该项指控。\n3 法庭：好的。\n4 CONWAY 先生：我会说，我们的当事人非常乐意接受一项命令，规定任何人不得那样做，因为坦率地说，我们的当事人为什么会希望财产被带走？\n5 这毫无道理。\n6 所以，您知道。\n7 但我正试图——我正试图简化程序，而不是使其更加困难。\n8 这只是一个提议，法官阁下。\n9 我正试图提供帮助。\n10 BASSETT 先生：法官阁下，我可以简要回应吗？\n11 法庭：可以。\n12 BASSETT 先生：因此，对方律师说得没错，我们确实进行过那次谈话。\n13 他也没错，我们说过，仅有一项协议或法院命令，规定该\n14 房产不得被转让或设定负担，在受托人看来远不足以保护\n15 该资产。\n16 正如法庭刚才在与律师的谈话中指出，Taurus Fund, LLC（金牛基金有限责任公司）不是自然人。\n17 我们没有听到任何一名实际控制 Taurus Fund, LLC 的人的姓名。\n18 证据稍后将表明，被列为共同成员之一的人，是一名名叫 Scott Barnett（斯科特·巴尼特）的男子，而证据将表明他是\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 50 页，共\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日 50 债务人的司机和保安。在今天的陈述中，律师没有表示巴尼特先生居住在这所房子里。他暗示这只是被设立为某种商业据点。案卷中将有文件表明，这是一栋住宅建筑，并被指定用于该用途。正如房源信息及法庭已经看到的其他一切所明显表明的，这并非商业房产。律师提到了据称使用 G Club（G俱乐部）投资购买该房产的子基金，即 Taurus Fund。法官阁下，美国司法部（Department of Justice）在其刑事起诉书中指控 Kwok 先生犯有接近十亿美元的欺诈罪，其中很大一部分涉及其使用 G Club 投资为其个人支出提供资金，包括专门用于购置该房屋。案卷中还将有其他证据表明，唯一确实居住在这所房子里、且其所有珍贵个人物品都在房子里的人，是 Kwok 先生。我们认为对此毫无疑问。我们确实拥有的、而且这非常重要的，是这些视频。视频日期是，嗯，2023年4月12日，在债务人被监禁之后。我认为这绝非巧合，这里成为所谓的“基地\n\nFiore Reporting and Transcription Service, Inc.（菲奥雷记录及誊写服务公司）\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日\n\n1 供 NFSC（新中国联邦）使用”，是在债务人已无实际能力使用该房产之后。\n2 法官阁下，我们还将——我们还将在其中一些视频中展示，有一段视频显示这两名相同人员或其同事站在该房产前门外，人们不断进进出出，数量之多使其看起来像一所大学宿舍。\n3 它基本上就像向公众开放。\n4 其中有极端分子。\n5 这不仅仅是——并不需要有证据表明人们实际上正在从这所房子中搬走财产；事实是，他们确实存在这样做的真实、迫切风险。\n6 而他们为什么会这样做？\n7 因为这些属于该运动的人员显然并不居住在这所房子里。\n8 他们不是房子的所有人。\n9 这不可信。\n10 这不合逻辑。\n11 律师并未作出相反主张。\n12 因此，他们没有理由像所有人那样对待一所房屋及其物品，以保存其价值。\n13 而且，如果他们认为这些新中国联邦成员——法庭过去已认定他们曾指挥在受托人住所举行的抗议活动，并且曾采取诸如在本案中提交债权证明以拖延和扰乱本 Chapter 11（第11章）案件的行为——如果他们认为\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 52 页，共\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日\n\n1 他们将因本诉讼而把这所房子输给 Chapter 11 受托人，那么我认为他们将有一种完全相反方向的动机，即确保它对破产财产和债权人没有价值。\n2 因此，他们不仅可能将古董等极其有价值的物品、电视机以及诸如一张 $25,000 床垫之类的物品从房屋中拿走，还可能损害和毁坏该房产。我们将从受托人处获得更多关于其产生该担忧依据的证言。\n\n但这正是本案的全部关键所在。仅仅保存这项正以这种方式使用、且应当为本破产财产债权人的利益而维持的房产，并确保其未被出售或设定负担，绝对不足够。我们需要我们在初步禁令中所请求的更广泛救济。\n\n因此，这就是我的回应。我们稍后将在结案陈词中进一步讨论这一点，但那样做行不通。\n\n至于我们如何继续进行，鉴于我认为我们现在已同意处于一个过渡节点，即受托人将暂时离开证人席，而我们将让——或者更准确地说，我的同事将让——Song 女士出庭作证，我愿意就在这一特定问题上休庭。\n\n如果该问题存在可能的解决方案，我愿意现在讨论。\n\nDespins 诉 Taurus Fund — 2023年8月14日 53 但律师为本次听证提出的更广泛解决方案，基于我所说明的理由，行不通。\n\n法庭：好。那么我们将休庭，给各方一些时间进行讨论。现在是 12:44。我们将在 1:05 回来。好。法庭现在休庭至 1:05。并且，Despins 先生，显然，如您所知，您仍在宣誓之中。\n\n（法庭于下午 12:45 休庭。）\n\n（程序于下午 1:07 恢复。）\n\n法庭：请坐。好。我们进行了短暂休庭，我想各方本来要讨论几件事情，但当然包括证据 21 的问题。因此，Bassett 律师，您是否有任何事项希望向法庭报告？\n\nBASSETT 先生：法官阁下，我们确实与 Taurus Fund 的律师进行了交谈。除双方同意我们将尝试让 Song 女士出庭作证，并尽可能迅速地处理她需要提供的任何证言外，我们未能提出其他解决方案。\n\n法庭：好的。那么请继续。\n\nBASSETT 先生：Luft 先生将负责\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 53 页，共\n\nLuyi Song（宋露易）— 直接询问 — Luft（卢夫特） 54 询问，法官阁下。\n\n法庭：请继续，Luft 律师。\n\nLUFT 先生：法官阁下，Song 女士可以走近审判席吗？\n\n法庭：可以，请。您的意思是到证人席去吗？\n\nLUFT 先生：是的。谢谢。我会站着，而她将前往证人席。\n\n法警：请举起右手。\n\n（证人宣誓。）\n\n法警：请陈述您的姓名和地址，以供记录。\n\n证人：我叫 Lui Song，L-U-Y-I S-O-N-G。地址为纽约 200 Park Avenue。\n\n法庭：您知道吗，对，我想麦克风没有录到您的声音。\n\n证人：哦，我需要对着麦克风说话吗？\n\n法庭：抱歉。\n\n证人：好的。对。我叫 Luyi Song，L-U-Y-I S-O-N-G。地址是纽约 200 Park Avenue。\n\n法警：谢谢。\n\n法庭：您可以坐下。谢谢。\n\nLUFT 先生：谢谢，法官阁下。为记录起见，我是 Paul Hastings（保尔·哈斯廷斯律师事务所）的 Avi Luft（阿维·卢夫特），代表受托人出庭，案号为\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 54 页，共\n\nLuyi Song — 直接询问 — Luft 55 22-50073。法官阁下，如获准许，我将先与 Song 女士简要介绍一些背景情况，然后进入问题。\n\n法庭：当然。\n\nLUYI SONG，受托人证人，经宣誓\n\n由 LUFT 先生进行直接询问：\n\n问：Song 女士，您出生在哪里？\n\n答：我出生于中国。\n\n问：好的。您的母语是什么？\n\n答：济南，山东省。\n\n问：您成长过程中说什么语言？\n\n答：中文。\n\n问：您能否向法庭简要说明您的教育背景？\n\n答：当然。我在中国上小学。我在中国上中学。这两所学校的教学语言主要是中文，或者说实际上仅为中文。我在新加坡上高中，教学语言为英语。我在德国上大学，教学语言为英语。我毕业于 University of Minnesota Law School（明尼苏达大学法学院），教学语言为英语。现在我在 Paul Hastings 工作。\n\n问：您在 Paul\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 55 页，共\n\nLuyi Song — 直接询问 — Luft 56 Hastings 使用何种语言工作？\n\n答：英语。\n\n问：您在哪些部门工作？\n\n答：我全职在破产并购部工作。\n\n问：您熟练掌握哪些语言？\n\n答：我熟练掌握英语。中文是我的母语。\n\n问：谢谢您，Song 女士。\n\nLUFT 先生：法官阁下，此时如法庭准许，我将转入她在本事项中所做的工作。\n\n法庭：可以。请继续。\n\n由 LUFT 先生进行询问：\n\n问：Song 女士，曾播放一段视频和若干片段，您当时在场观看了吗？\n\n答：是的。\n\n问：我相信那是受托人证据 21，在 U 盘上标记为证据 9。\n\n答：是的，正确。\n\n问：好的。Song 女士，您看过证据 21 的全部内容吗？\n\n答：是的，我看过。\n\n问：并且您受要求翻译其部分内容？\n\n答：是的，我翻译了。是的，我受到了要求。\n\n问：请允许我问您，就全部的、证据 21 中标记为证据 9 的所有内容而言，是否有任何部分属于\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 56 页，共\n\n1 您未翻译的那段视频中，是否有任何内容与\n2 您确实翻译的任何内容不一致？\n3 答\n没有。\n4 问\n好的。那么，您为何选择翻译\n5 您所翻译的那些部分？\n6 答\n因为那些部分提到了郭文贵先生（Mr. Kwok）。\n7 问\n那么，在该视频其余全部内容中，在视频剩余部分的任何时候，\n8 是否提及任何其他个人或实体\n9 为该庄园的所有人？\n10 答\n没有。\n11 卢夫特先生（MR. LUFT）：\n法官阁下，此时此刻，我\n12 真正想做的是看看我们如何能够协助\n13 法院。有若干视频片段。我知道曾经有\n14 关于未翻译部分的问题。宋女士（Ms. Song）\n15 可以翻译那些部分，如果这能\n16 协助法院。她只请求给她一支\n17 笔和纸，并在我们进行时暂停视频。\n18 法院：\n那么，我也要问问律师\n19 他想要什么。\n20 但我的意思是——我当然可以给您\n21 一张纸和一支铅笔——\n22 卢夫特先生：\n我有，法官阁下。\n23 法院：\n好的。谢谢。\n24 我只是，在观看视频时，\n25 有些地方两个人中的一人正在\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\n卢易·宋（Luyi Song）—直接询问—卢夫特\n\n1 说话，而那些话没有被翻译。而我\n2 只是好奇，为何没有翻译？\n3 证人：\n明白。我翻译了\n4 提到郭文贵先生姓名的部分。其他\n5 未翻译的部分不包含\n6 实质性内容。\n7 法院：\n好的。并且其中不包含郭\n8 文贵先生的姓名——\n9 证人：\n不包含。\n10 法院：\n——所以您没有翻译？\n11 证人：\n正确。\n12 法院：\n好的。律师，视频片段中是否有部分\n13 您希望让宋女士\n14 翻译？\n15 康威先生（MR. CONWAY）：\n是的，法官阁下。\n16 巴塞特先生（Mr. Bassett）和我讨论的是，若干片段中\n17 有翻译的问题，但\n18 没有翻译答案，等等。\n19 我们讨论的是，如证人\n20 所述，只要每当一部分——一部分证词\n21 被提供时都暂停，\n22 以便可以翻译，这就是我们讨论的\n23 在此处理方式。\n24 法院：\n好的。那么您希望如何\n25 继续？我们是否要逐一查看——\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特 59\n\n康威先生：\n播放——\n\n法院：\n您提到过三个——在我看来，您似乎有一份列有几个您有问题的视频片段的清单。\n\n康威先生：\n正确。我把这些编号交给了巴塞特先生，我以为他已经转交了。\n\n法院：\n好的。好的。那么你们要调出那些片段？我们要调出那些片段，然后逐一查看，好吗。\n\n卢夫特先生：\n会的，法官阁下。\n\n法院：\n那么请继续。我们首先再看哪个片段？\n\n卢夫特先生：\n据我了解，康威先生想看的第一个片段是证物21的第三个片段。\n\n法院：\n好的。\n\n卢夫特先生：\n那么，如果可以，请将其调出。\n\n法院：\n谢谢。马上就会完成。\n\n（播放证物21，第三个片段）\n\n卢夫特先生：\n再次请求允许证人在需要确保翻译准确并有足够时间时，要求暂停。\n\n法院：\n好的。那么我们重新开始？\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第59页，共\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第60页，共\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特\n\n1 卢夫特先生：\n请开始，法官阁下。\n2 法院：\n好的。请继续。\n3 （播放证物21，第三个片段）\n4 证人：\n请暂停。\n5 法院：\n请暂停。好的。\n6 证人：\n男子说，这座庄园约有\n7 13英亩。女子评论说它相当大。然后\n8 男子说它相当大。\n9 法院：\n好的。\n10 （播放证物21，第三个片段）\n11 证人：\n请暂停。\n12 法院：\n请暂停。好的。\n13 证人：\n女子说，当然，让我们跟着\n14 （听不清）弟兄去看看这个地方。\n15 法院：\n再说一遍。她指的是\n16 那位男士吗？\n17 证人：\n所以，那位女士说，当然，让我们\n18 跟着（听不清）弟兄——我相信他就是\n19 视频中的那位男士——去看看这个地方。\n20 法院：\n好的。谢谢。\n21 （播放证物21，第三个片段）\n22 证人：\n那位女士最后说的\n23 是“所以这栋建筑”。\n24 法院：\n好的。\n25 卢夫特先生：\n如果法官阁下对此没有问题，\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第61页，共\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特 61\n\n1 我们可以转到下一个片段。\n2 法院：\n律师，您有问题吗？\n3 康威先生：\n没有，法官阁下。没有。\n4 法院：\n好的。谢谢。\n5 那么我们转到下一个片段。\n6 卢夫特先生：\n谢谢。\n7 下一个是第四个片段。谢谢。\n8 （播放证物21，第四个片段）\n9 证人：\n请暂停。\n10 女子说，它具有历史和文化\n11 价值。\n12 （播放证物21，第四个片段）\n13 证人：\n请暂停。\n14 她说，这是（听不清）的宫殿，\n15 美国。\n16 （播放证物21，第四个片段）\n17 卢夫特先生：\n可以请求暂停吗。\n18 法院：\n请暂停。\n19 卢夫特先生：\n法官阁下，曾有一个关于\n20 读取麦克风的问题。我认为此时这样做容易得多。\n21 \n22 法院：\n是的。我能看见。我刚才\n23 也看见了。\n24 卢夫特先生：\n好的。\n25 法院：\n谢谢。\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特 62\n\n（播放证物21，第四个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。他说，在建筑物内部我们进行了许多翻修。\n\n（播放证物21，第四个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。他说，在过去一年，即2022年，这整个地方已经翻修，并且正在翻修中。\n\n（播放证物21，第四个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。他说，现在您可以看到有些地方尚未完成。我们经过时可以看到，仍有一些地方在施工。\n\n（播放证物21，第四个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。所以，这位女士说，上次在4月8日，大约500名来自20个全球农场的（听不清）同伴首次去看了这个地方。\n\n（播放证物21，第四个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。她在翻译前说的最后一句话是，所以他们，即那些（听不清）同伴，深受感动。\n\n（播放证物21，第四个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第62页，共\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特 63\n\n男子说，这个地方供（听不清）同伴聚会。3C办公室不够大。\n\n法院：\n什么办公室？\n\n证人：\n我相信他们所指的3C办公室，是位于纽约3 Columbus Circle的办公室。\n\n法院：\n谢谢。\n\n卢夫特先生：\n法官阁下，我再次请康威先生回答。\n\n法院：\n律师，您对此有任何问题吗？\n\n康威先生：\n没有。谢谢。\n\n法院：\n好的。谢谢。下一个片段是什么？\n\n卢夫特先生：\n第五个片段，法官阁下。\n\n法院：\n第五个片段。好的。\n\n（播放证物21，第五个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。我相信他们在谈论建筑物内的管风琴音管，男子说，上次有一位（听不清）同伴，我相信名字是Qmey，正在演奏它，并能够使音管发出声音。\n\n法院：\n请您拼写一下Qmey这个名字。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第63页，共\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第64页，共\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特 64\n\n证人：\n是Q-M-E-Y。\n\n法院：\n谢谢。\n\n（播放证物21，第五个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。男子最后一句话是，我相信他的意思是——他指的是音管不同于钢琴。因此，管风琴音管不同于钢琴。\n\n（播放证物21，第五个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。他说——男子说，这个地方在过去几十年里一直是一所神学院，也是一个信仰之地。\n\n（播放证物21，第五个片段）\n\n证人：\n好的。男子最后的评论是，这个地方具有历史重要性，是一处历史遗迹。\n\n法院：\n律师，还有什么吗？\n\n康威先生：\n就此没有。\n\n法院：\n好的。\n\n卢夫特先生：\n法官阁下，第六个片段是下一个要求我们播放的片段。\n\n法院：\n第六个片段。好的。\n\n（播放证物21，第六个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。翻译开始前当事人所说的是农场，蔬菜农场。\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特 65\n\n（播放证物21，第六个片段）\n\n证人：\n他最后说的部分是，这些全都已经——我相信他的意思是正在翻修或施工。\n\n康威先生：\n我没有问题。\n\n法院：\n没有？好的。\n\n卢夫特先生：\n好的。第七个片段是下一个要求我们播放的片段。\n\n法院：\n第七个片段。\n\n（播放证物21，第七个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。男子说，这个地方在过去几十年中能够容纳两到300人，100到200人。抱歉。\n\n（播放证物21，第七个片段）\n\n证人：\n他最后说的部分是，是的，这个地方可容纳2000到3000人。\n\n卢夫特先生：\n法官阁下，康威先生？\n\n法院：\n还有什么吗？律师，有任何问题吗？\n\n康威先生：\n没有。我感谢这份翻译。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第65页，共\n\n法院：\n现在所有片段都结束了吗？\n\n卢夫特先生：\n没有，还有两个，法官阁下。\n\n法院：\n没关系。\n\n卢夫特先生：\n抱歉。\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特 66\n\n法院：\n没关系。这不是问题。\n\n卢夫特先生：\n第八个片段是下一个要求我们播放的片段。\n\n（播放证物21，第八个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。他说，神学院、老式管风琴音管，以及这里有一间桑拿房。\n\n（播放证物21，第八个片段）\n\n证人：\n她在翻译开始前说的最后几个词是娱乐设施。\n\n（播放证物21，第八个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。他说，包括如何接待这些人，如何管理登记和报名。您介意倒回大约两三秒吗？我没有听清最后一部分。谢谢。\n\n（播放证物21，第八个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。他说，供G Club年度会议的高级会员以及较小群体使用。\n\n（播放证物21，第八个片段）\n\n证人：\n请暂停。他说，我们将如何接待他们？未来会有计划。\n\n（播放证物21，第八个片段）\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n登记日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\n卢易·宋—直接询问—卢夫特\n\n1 证人：\n请暂停。\n2 他说，这个地方是G Club会员可以\n3 享受的地方。他还说，NFSC的战友也\n4 欢迎前来。\n5 （播放证物21，第八个片段）\n6 证人：\n她最后说的部分是，真的，\n7 （听不清）弟兄，当我第一次加入\n8 爆料革命时，我从未想过，然后片段结束了。\n9 法院：\n谢谢。\n10 康威先生：\n谢谢。\n11 法院：\n那么我们还有最后一个？\n12 卢夫特先生：\n还有一个，法官阁下。\n13 我们被要求播放第十个片段。\n14 法庭书记员：\n抱歉。您说第十个\n15 片段？\n16 卢夫特先生：\n是。\n17 法庭书记员：\n好的。\n18 （播放证物21，第10个片段。）\n19 证人：\n请暂停。\n20 翻译开始前，那位女士\n21 所说的是，一群黑头发、\n22 黄皮肤的中国人来到这个地方。\n23 （播放证物21，第十个片段）\n24 证人：\n请暂停。\n25 男子最后一句话是，在这两者之间\n\nLuyi Song（宋露怡）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦） 68\n1 该地点数十年来一直是一所神学院。\n2 法庭：\n还有什么——\n3 CONWAY 律师：\n谢谢。\n就这些。\n那些是\n4 视频片段吗？\n5 LUFT 律师：\n法官阁下，那些是我们被要求询问的全部视频片段\n6 。\n如果您对 Song 女士有任何问题，\n7 她可以回答。\n8 法庭：\n我没有进一步的问题。\n9 谢谢。\n这对我很有帮助。\n10 那么，各位律师，你们还有进一步的问题吗？\n11 CONWAY 律师：\n只有一个，也许两个，取决于\n12 答案。\n13 法庭：\n好的。\n请继续。\n14 CONWAY 律师：\n谢谢。\n15 交叉询问\n16 由 CONWAY 律师进行：\n17 问\n下午好。\n18 答\n下午好。\n19 问\n您提到您的母语是中文？\n20 答\n是的。\n21 问\n哪一种方言？\n22 答\n普通话。\n23 问\n视频中使用的是哪一种方言——哪一种方言\n24 ？\n25 答\n普通话。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 69 of\n\nLuyi Song（宋露怡）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦） 69 问 谢谢。法庭：还有其他事项吗，Luft（卢夫特）律师？LUFT 律师：没有，法官阁下。法庭：好的。Song 女士，您可以退席了。非常感谢。证人：谢谢，法官阁下。（证人退席）法庭：好的。Bassett（巴塞特）先生？BASSETT 律师：是，法官阁下。法庭：您现在请求完整接纳证物 21？BASSETT 律师：是，法官阁下。法庭：各位律师，您坚持您的异议吗？CONWAY 律师：坚持异议，法官阁下。法庭：谢谢。好的。我已审议证物 21 及律师提出的异议，我理解该异议，也理解该异议背后的理由，但我将驳回该异议，并将证物 21 作为完整证物接纳。您的异议已记入记录。CONWAY 律师：谢谢，法官阁下。法庭：谢谢。（受托人证物 21，连同 U 盘中标为证物 9 的视频，获接纳为证据）\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘斯）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 70 BASSETT 律师：法官阁下，此时，如法庭许可，我们将继续受托人的证言。法庭：是，请继续。是。谢谢。BASSETT 律师：受托人可以上前并且——法庭：可以。BASSETT 律师：谢谢。LUC DESPINS，此前已宣誓 继续直接询问 由 BASSETT 律师进行：问 那么，Despins 先生，我们现在已经讨论了受托人证物清单中的证物 21。我们还有几段视频，我认为它们将相对很快地进行，至少会比证物 21 更快，我想向您展示——我想向您展示的其他视频证物。BASSETT 律师：如果法庭书记员能够从 ECF 上的受托人证物清单中调出证物 24 的 PDF 证物页。非常感谢。然后请您滚动到该页。由 BASSETT 律师进行：问 那么，Despins 先生，先前我曾问您是否点击过证物 21 至 27 各项的链接。我相信您说您点击过。对于本证物 24，您今天早晨访问过该链接吗？答 是的，我访问过。Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 70 of\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘斯）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n问\n本证物 24 所示内容，是否与您今天早晨访问该网站时\n所看到的内容一致？\n答\n一致。\n问\n再者，您看到顶部写着 New Federal\nState of China（新中国联邦），您是否理解这是一个\n与 New Federal State of China 有关联的网站？\n答\n是的。\n问\n那么，这个黑色——再次，这个黑色方框，中间有一个\n矩形，屏幕左侧标有 2023 年 4 月 9 日的日期，依您\n理解，那是一段视频吗？\n答\n是的，那是我观看过的一段视频。\n问\n您今天早晨观看了该视频？\n答\n是的。\n问\n好的。\n您先前描述了一个流程，即 Paul Hastings（保罗·黑斯廷斯律师事务所）的工作人员\n与一家供应商合作，保存并制作视频索引页。\n您是否理解\n他们也制作了该视频的片段？\n答\n是的。\nBASSETT 律师：\n据此，我想向法庭播放\n我相信在 U 盘中标为证物 22 的内容，\n其对应于受托人证物 24。\n（证物 24，连同 U 盘中标为证物 22 的视频，已播放）\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘斯）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 72 由 BASSETT 律师进行：问 Despins 先生，那是否就是您今天早晨先前访问证物 24 的链接时所看到的视频？答 是的。问 您认得该视频背景中出现的建筑物或构筑物吗？答 是的。Mahwah mansion（马瓦庄园），是的。BASSETT 律师：法官阁下，这段视频是完整版本，不是剪辑版本，为记录起见，这是该视频的完整版本。那也不是我们提供的翻译。正如我向律师所述，那是实际发布在网上的视频中已有的翻译。据此，法官阁下，我们请求接纳受托人证物 24。法庭：谢谢。各位律师？CONWAY 律师：谢谢，法官阁下。与上一段视频类似，对于该视频是如何制作的、发言者是谁、他们在该视频中说这些话的理由是什么、该视频制作的方式，甚至该视频今天在此如何被保存，均未适当奠定基础。基于此，尽管这同样是一次初步禁令听证，我认为传闻证据异议 Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 72 of\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘斯）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 也是成立的。\n2 法庭：\n谢谢。\n3 Bassett 律师？\n4 BASSETT 律师：\n法官阁下，我不会重复已经提出的\n5 观点。\n法庭已经就 NFSC 作出了\n6 认定。\n7 法官阁下还会注意到右上角的 G Translator（G 翻译器）\n8 标识，这也是此前在本法庭进行的证言和证据\n9 的主题。\n10 我认为，受托人已就其保存流程作证，\n11 并就该文件位于\n12 NFSC 网站这一事实作证，从而我们已为该\n13 文件奠定基础。\n14 至于律师提出的传闻证据问题，我\n15 指出，我们在很大程度上引入该\n16 证物，是为了显示 Mahwah mansion 内正在发生的活动程度、\n17 进出的人群，这一点我\n18 先前曾略作提及。\n它看起来几乎像是一座大学校园内的建筑物。\n19 这不是传闻证据。\n这可以\n20 从视频本身清楚地看出。\n21 基于所有这些理由，法官阁下，我们认为\n22 该视频可以接纳，并请求将其\n23 接纳为证据。\n24 法庭：\n好的。\n律师，您有任何回应吗？\n25 CONWAY 律师：\n只是此前有许多\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘斯）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 提及其他诉讼，其中某些事项已获证明，\n2 但我并不在场，而且我认为它们与本案\n3 无关。\n4 不过我同意，这使我想起了我的\n5 大学校园。\n6 法庭：\n证物 24 及 U 盘中的视频证物 22\n7 驳回异议后完整接纳。\n8 BASSETT 律师：\n谢谢，法官阁下。\n9 （受托人证物 24，连同 U 盘中标为证物 22 的视频，\n10 获接纳为证据）\n11 BASSETT 律师：\n此时，我想返回\n12 证物清单本身。\n13 如果法庭书记员能够调出\n14 证物 25 的封面页。\n谢谢。\n15 您会看到那里有一个 URL，如同前述证物\n16 一样。\n然后请我们向下滚动至\n17 下一页。\n18 由 BASSETT 律师进行：\n19 问\n受托人 Despins，您今天早晨也访问了与该视频\n20 相关的链接吗？\n21 答\n是的，我访问过。\n22 问\n它是否将您带至一个看起来像\n23 受托人证物 25 此处所示网页的网页？\n24 答\n是的。\n25 问\n再者，这是 New Federal State of China\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘斯）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 75 网站，和上一段视频一样？答 是的。问 您指示您的团队在供应商的协助下保存屏幕上出现的视频？答 是的。BASSETT 律师：据此，我想播放这段视频，它再次属于受托人证物 25，但在 U 盘中标为证物 23。（证物 25，连同 U 盘中标为证物 23 的视频，已播放）由 BASSETT 律师进行：问 Despins 先生，我们刚刚观看的视频，是否与您今天早晨点击证物 25 链接时所看到的视频相同？答 是的。问 如果您一直留意，翻译文本中曾数次提到 Seventh Brother（七哥）。根据您在本案或其他方面的经验，您是否理解那是指谁？答 是的。那是 Kwok 先生的别名。许多文件中都如此称呼。而且起诉书实际上提到了 Seventh Brother。BASSETT 律师：我仅向法庭再次指出，该视频的日期为 April 9th, 2023。根据屏幕上的图像，左下角有一个 New Federal Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 75 of\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘斯）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 76 State of China 标识。然后，在右上角，我们再次看到 G Translators（G 翻译器）。据此，受托人请求接纳受托人证物 25 中的视频。法庭：各位律师？CONWAY 律师：法官阁下，如果可以，我能否通过援引纳入我对证物 24 的异议？法庭：可以。谢谢。CONWAY 律师：好的。同样的异议。法庭：谢谢。证物 25，即仅为封面页，以及 U 盘中的证物 23，即相应视频，驳回异议后完整接纳。BASSETT 律师：谢谢，法官阁下。（受托人证物 25，连同 U 盘中标为证物 23 的视频，获接纳为证据）BASSETT 律师：此时，如果我们可以进行同样的操作，调出受托人证物 26 的 PDF 索引页。再次，该证物索引页载有一个 URL。请您向下滚动至该页。由 BASSETT 律师进行：问 受托人 Despins，这是您今天早晨点击过的另一个 URL 吗？答 是的。问 再者，它链接至 New Federal State of China Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 76 of\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘斯）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 77 网站？答 是的。问 该页面上有一段视频？答 是的。问 这是您要求团队按照我们今天早晨讨论的流程保存的视频之一吗？答 是的。BASSETT 律师：据此，我想播放与受托人证物 26 相关的视频，该视频在 U 盘中标为证物 24。（证物 26，连同 U 盘中标为证物 24 的视频，已播放）由 BASSETT 律师进行：问 受托人 Despins，我们刚刚观看的片段，是否就是您今天早晨点击与受托人证物 26 相关的链接时所观看的视频？答 是的。BASSETT 律师：据此，法官阁下，我们同样请求将受托人证物 26 及 U 盘中证物 24 所载的相关视频片段接纳为证据。法庭：各位律师？CONWAY 律师：法官阁下，我能否通过援引纳入我对证物 24 和 25 的异议？Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 77 of\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特） 78\n\n法官：可以。谢谢。\n\nCONWAY先生（康威）：同样提出异议。\n\n法官：证物26及证物24中相应的视频，在异议之上全部准予采纳为证。\n\nBASSETT先生：谢谢，法官阁下。\n\n（受托人证物26，连同存储在U盘上并标注为证物24的视频，已收为证据）\n\nBASSETT先生：我们只剩下另外三个此类证物。此时，能否请法庭副书记员在屏幕上调出与受托人证物27相关的证物说明页。与其他证物一样，证物27的第一页上有一个URL。如果您能向下滚动到第二页。\n\n由BASSETT先生询问：\n\n问：Despins受托人，该第一页上的URL是否是您今天上午访问过的另一个URL？\n\n答：是，当然。\n\n问：它是否将您带到一个看起来与此处证物27上所显示页面相同的网页？\n\n答：是。\n\n问：我们之前谈过此事，但您是否理解这是GETTR网站？\n\n答：是，我理解。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n问：再一次，我们谈过此事，但上面有NFSCTV，旁边带有红色对勾，对吗？\n\n答：对。\n\n问：您让您的团队以我们先前讨论过的相同方式保存了该视频的片段，对吗？\n\n答：是。\n\nBASSETT先生：据此，我想请法庭副书记员播放证物27，即U盘上的证物25。\n\nBASSETT先生：我还要向法庭指出，在该视频标题的下方写着“NFSC third anniversary”。\n\n（证物27，连同存储在U盘上并标注为证物25的视频，已播放）\n\n由BASSETT先生询问：\n\n问：Despins受托人，您刚刚看到的该片段是否属于您点击与证物25相关的链接时观看的视频的一部分？\n\n答：是。\n\nBASSETT先生：据此，法官阁下，我们请求准予将受托人证物27采纳为证据。抱歉。我想我称其为证物25。U盘上的证物是证物25，但它是受托人证物27。我们请求准予将受托人证物27以及我们刚刚观看的、U盘上证物25中的片段采纳为证据。\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）80\n\n法官：谢谢。律师？\n\nCONWAY先生（康威）：法官阁下，我能否援引并入我就证物24提出的异议？\n\n法官：可以。谢谢。\n\nCONWAY先生：异议理由是认证基础不足。\n\n法官：证物27及U盘上作为证物25的相应视频，在异议之上全部准予采纳为证。\n\n（受托人证物27，连同存储在U盘上并标注为证物25的视频，已收为证据证物）\n\nBASSETT先生：谢谢，法官阁下。此时只剩下两件证物。第一件是受托人证物22。再次，请法庭副书记员调出与该证物相关的证物说明页。证物22同样有一个URL链接。如果您能向下滚动到第二页。\n\n由BASSETT先生询问：\n\n问：Despins受托人，这是我们刚刚在受托人证物22第一页看到的链接吗？这是否是您今天上午点击过的另一个链接？\n\n答：是。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n问：您是否让您的团队按照您今天上午所述的程序，保存该链接上显示的视频？\n\n答：是，我让他们保存了。\n\n问：再一次，如我们所讨论的，这是一个——该链接是一个GETTR页面的链接，对吗？\n\n答：对。\n\n问：这里显示的不是NFSCTV，而是Miles Guo（郭文贵），旁边有一个对勾，您看到了吗？\n\n答：是，我看到了。\n\n问：您理解这表示什么？\n\n答：这是——这是他的账户，因为红色对勾意味着该账户被认证为他的账户。\n\nBASSETT先生：据此，我想请法庭副书记员播放与受托人证物22相关的U盘视频，即U盘上的证物20。\n\nBASSETT先生：为记录在案并向法庭说明，该证物及下一件证物中所使用的语言是普通话。我们没有翻译它，因为我们并非为其中所说内容的实质而提交它。我们仅为屏幕上显示的图像而提交它。\n\n（证物22，连同存储在U盘上并标注为证物20的视频，已播放）\n\n由BASSETT先生询问：\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n问：Despins受托人，您点击与受托人证物22相关的链接时看到的是否就是该视频？\n\n答：是。\n\nBASSETT先生：再次，法官阁下，我们仅为显示Kwok先生（郭文贵）出现在该帖文中的目的而提交此项证物，如证物说明页所示，该帖文发布于January 11th, 2023。我们仅为显示Kwok先生正在拍摄该视频而提交此项证物，如您从摄像机画面中可以看到，他是在该豪宅内与我们已看过的其他视频拍摄地相同的位置拍摄视频。\n\nBASSETT先生：据此，我们请求准予将证物22及证物20中的相关片段采纳为证据。\n\n法官：律师？\n\nCONWAY先生（康威）：是，法官阁下。与就证物24提出的相同认证基础异议。若我可以援引并入该异议？\n\n法官：可以。谢谢。\n\n法官：原告证物22及证物20中的相应视频，在异议之上全部准予采纳为证。\n\nBASSETT先生：谢谢，法官阁下。\n\n（受托人证物22，连同存储在U盘上并标注为证物20的视频，已收为证据）\n\nBASSETT先生：最后一个视频片段见于受托人证物23。如果我可以请法庭副书记员——\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n——调出证物23的说明页。再一次，我们在这里看到一个URL链接。如果您能滚动到第二页。\n\n由BASSETT先生询问：\n\n问：Despins受托人，这——这里屏幕上的图像，是否就是您今天上午点击我们在第一页看到的链接时所发现的内容？\n\n答：是。\n\n问：您让您的团队保存了该帖文中包含的视频吗？\n\n答：是，我让他们保存了。\n\nBASSETT先生：如果可以，请播放与证物23相关的视频，即U盘上的证物21。\n\n（证物23，连同存储在U盘上并标注为证物21的视频，已播放）\n\nBASSETT先生：请暂停视频。\n\nBASSETT先生：法官阁下，为了节省我们大家1分44秒，我想指出，如同上一个视频，我们仅为显示这是一个标注日期为February 19th, 2023的视频而提交它，屏幕上有一名可轻易辨认为Kwok先生的人，正在看似为该豪宅内同一地点拍摄视频。其中没有任何翻译，我们并非为他所说内容的实质而提交它。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\nBASSETT先生：因此，我很乐意播放完整视频，但若这会加快进程，我们此时将，在不影响法庭可能提出的任何异议或问题的前提下，提交证物22作为证据，即，抱歉，提交证物23作为证据，该证物在U盘上为证物21。\n\n法官：律师，您想看完整视频吗？\n\nCONWAY先生（康威）：我不需要看完整视频，法官阁下。\n\nCONWAY先生：我会要求——我仍将基于认证基础理由提出异议，理由与我对证物24和22提出异议的理由相同；我能否援引并入那些异议？\n\n法官：可以。谢谢。\n\n法官：原告证物23及U盘上作为证物21的相应视频，在异议之上全部准予采纳为证。\n\nBASSETT先生：谢谢，法官阁下。\n\n（受托人证物23，连同存储在U盘上并标注为证物21的视频，已收为证据）\n\nBASSETT先生：此时，我想就另外几件证物向受托人询问一些问题。幸好这些不是视频证物，所以我认为会进行得更快。\n\n由BASSETT先生询问：\n\n问：但是，Despins受托人，如果您可以在您的证物活页夹中翻到标记为受托人证物13的部分。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\nBASSETT先生：如果我们同样能请法庭副书记员将该证物调到屏幕上，将不胜感激。请向上滚动到第一页。谢谢。谢谢。请回到另一页。\n\n由BASSETT先生询问：\n\n问：Despins受托人，您认得此处显示为受托人证物13的内容吗？\n\n答：是，我认得。\n\n问：您理解这是什么？\n\n答：这是FBI在March 15th于Mahwah豪宅执行搜查令时搜查发现的、我相信是29套西装中的一套西装的内侧口袋。\n\n问：您是如何取得这张照片副本的？\n\n答：美国司法部对Kwok先生的起诉由一名助理美国检察官Juliana Murray（朱莉安娜·默里）负责——我在7月初打电话给她，以取得FBI在该豪宅执行搜查令时发现物品的照片，她提供了大量照片，而我们选择了，我想，大约十张最好的照片，而这会是其中一张。\n\n问：所以，Murray女士是您与之交谈的人？\n\n答：对。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n问：她向您表示，该图像是FBI在March 15th, 2023搜查该豪宅时拍摄的图像？\n\n答：对。\n\n问：例如，她还告诉过您关于他们在何处发现它的任何情况吗？\n\n答：是。它是在该豪宅内一间被认为是Kwok先生更衣室的更衣室中发现的。\n\n问：我想您说过，我想您可能提到过大约29套其他西装，她是否说过这是一套西装的一个样本？\n\n答：是。这只是其中一套的样本，是的。\n\n问：她对其他西装说了什么？\n\n答：它们全都有那个标签。\n\nBASSETT先生：据此，法官阁下，我们请求准予将受托人证物13采纳为证据。\n\n法官：律师？\n\nCONWAY先生（康威）：认证基础异议，法官阁下。没有认证基础证明这确实是在某一地点发现的物品，但我理解该证言。\n\nBASSETT先生：法官阁下，我们已通过Despins先生就其与对美国政府代表交谈的证言建立了认证基础；该等代表直接知悉这些图像如何在March 15th搜查期间取得。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）87 再次强调，在本巡回区，传闻证言可采，传闻证据可采。即使律师对该传闻提出异议，也只涉及现阶段该证据的证明力，而不涉及其可采性。法庭：律师，还有其他事项吗？CONWAY先生（康韦）：仅重申，我的异议是关于证据基础。这张照片显然是从多张照片中挑选出来的。我们不知道这是否是一张由FBI（联邦调查局）特工提及的照片，或诸如此类的情况。因此，无论其是否属于传闻，我的异议针对的是证据基础。BASSETT先生（巴塞特）：为明确起见，法官阁下，我方立场是，我们已通过Despins先生的证言奠定了证据基础，该证言涉及他与政府代表的谈话。就受托人Despins的证言包含传闻而言，即他与政府代表的谈话，该等证言在本程序的现阶段可采。法庭：好的。受托人证据13不顾异议，全部准予采纳。BASSETT先生：谢谢，法官阁下。（受托人证据13作为证据收录）BASSETT先生：如果可以的话，我想请法庭书记员展示下一份证据，即证据14。\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）88 请滚动至第二页。谢谢。由BASSETT先生询问：问：并且，受托人Despins，受托人证据14载有文件图像，其中部分内容已被遮盖。我认为法庭内每个人都可以看到，其中有一份纽约州学习驾驶许可证，上面写有Kwok Ho Wan（郭文贵），以及其他也载有其姓名的文件。受托人Despins，您是否了解该文件的来源？答：来源相同。那是一张由司法部（Department of Justice）提供给我们的照片，反映了FBI于March 15th拍摄的照片，只是我们对这些文件中关于Kwok先生的个人信息作了遮盖。问：好的。您所说的在突袭中发现，是指在Mahwah豪宅？答：是的，执行搜查令时。BASSETT先生：因此，不再赘述，法官阁下，我方申请将受托人证据14作为证据采纳。法庭：律师？CONWAY先生：不再赘述，法官阁下，我想提出与我对证据13所提相同的证据基础异议。法庭：谢谢。已记录。受托人证据14不顾异议，全部准予采纳。Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 88 of\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）89 异议。（受托人证据14作为证据收录）BASSETT先生：法官阁下，另有五份此类证据，即证据15、16、17、18和19。为加快今日听证程序，我想请求允许我逐一展示每份证据，然后请受托人大致确认每一份额外证据均以相同方式取得。我认为，如法庭可以接受，这样或许会比针对每份证据重复提问更快一些。法庭：律师，您是否反对实质上将证据15、16、17和18一并处理，然后我们可以看看对问题的回答？CONWAY先生：我认为这是合理的处理方式。法庭：谢谢。BASSETT先生：谢谢。法庭：请继续，Bassett律师。BASSETT先生：非常感谢，法官阁下。那么，请展示证据15并滚动至第二页。我谨为记录指出，您可以看到Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 89 of\n\n看来包含图像的图像，如法庭所知，该等图像\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 债务人及其家庭成员的图像。\n2 请展示受托人证据16。\n3 关于该证据，我谨为记录指出，\n4 尽管字体相当小，在\n5 页面左侧，您可以看到顶部写着，我认为那是意大利语，如果\n6 我没有弄错的话；其下方以英语写着\n7 真实性证书。\n8 如果您看该页的英文部分，\n9 其中写道，Ferrari（法拉利）证明此Speed Form的真实性。\n10 然后内容继续。\n11 如果您看右侧的信函，其写道：\n12 尊敬的Guo先生（郭文贵）。随后是一封信，我不会\n13 全文宣读，但其开头写道，我非常高兴\n14 得知，作为我们最忠实的\n15 客户之一，您决定购买一辆Ferrari Speedform。\n16 然后内容继续，该信载有\n17 某人的签名，其姓名下方标有商业及营销\n18 高级副总裁。\n19 此外，我还谨为记录指出，\n20 在页面右下方有一张纸，\n21 其中除其他事项外写明发现地点，\n22 其写着E房间，并提及一件餐具\n23 柜的中间部分。\n24 说到这里，请法庭书记员\n25 展示受托人证据17。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 91 of\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 关于该图像，我谨向法庭指出，\n2 有一个处方药瓶，上面标有\n3 Ho Wan Kwok（郭文贵）的姓名。再次说明，我们已从该图像中遮盖了敏感的个人\n4 信息。我谨指出，有一张纸，其中除其他事项外\n5 写着\n6 发现地点，并提及窗边的一张镜面梳妆台。\n7 \n8 说到这里，请法庭书记员\n9 展示受托人证据18。请您放大。\n10 我认为屏幕上可以看到的是\n11 另一份文件，其上似乎有，尽管\n12 应由法庭判断，债务人的图像，\n13 并载有其姓名Kwok Ho Wan（郭文贵）。\n14 说到这里，最后一张图像是证据19。如果\n15 法庭书记员可以展示该证据。\n16 我谨为记录指出，该图像顶部写着\n17 Cedric DuPont Antiques（塞德里克·杜邦古董）。其写着某些物品\n18 被出售给Taurus Fund, LLC（Taurus Fund有限责任公司）。图像有些暗，但在\n19 右上角，您可以看到日期\n20 2/11/2022，即2022年2月11日。\n21 然后，如果您向下滚动，我谨指出，\n22 2022年2月11日，如果我没有弄错的话，是本案Chapter 11申请日期前\n23 四天。\n24 如果您看这张发票，上面列有\n25 多件古董物品。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 92 of\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 首先是一张锻铁和大理石中央\n2 桌。然后是若干镜子。\n3 然后是一对精美的19世纪意大利\n4 镀金木镜。接下来是一面精美的意大利18世纪、\n5 约1780年、来自托斯卡纳的镀金木镜。\n6 您会看到其下方有一个勾选标记，并写着\n7 老板的卧室。其下方一项提及一面\n8 法国19世纪中期的另一面镜子。如果您看\n9 该项下方，其写着——有“Mei的\n10 卧室/浴室”字样。如法庭所知，我谨指出，\n11 债务人的女儿名为Mei Guo（郭美）。最后一项\n12 提及一面壮观而优雅的19世纪早期\n13 意大利镜子。\n14 该发票中，该等物品的\n15 发票所列表面成本总额为$218,078，依据\n16 发票右侧底部\n17 所显示的内容。\n18 证人：此外，我还要补充，法官阁下，\n19 在右上角写着“运送至”，并写明\n20 运送至Mahwah的豪宅。\n21 BASSETT先生：谢谢。\n22 说到这里，法官阁下，至此已涵盖所有\n23 类似照片证据，即受托人证据15\n24 至19。\n25 由BASSETT先生询问：\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 问：受托人Despins，在查看证据15至\n2 19后，这些图像是否是您以\n3 您就受托人证据13和14所述的方式从\n4 司法部取得的？\n5 答：正确。\n6 BASSETT先生：那么，说到这里——\n7 由BASSETT先生询问：\n8 问：并且，您的理解是，这些图像是\n9 司法部告诉您于March 15th, 2023突袭当天在Mahwah\n10 豪宅内发现的物品的图像？\n11 答：正确。\n12 BASSETT先生：那么，说到这里，法官阁下，我方\n13 申请将受托人证据15至19\n14 作为证据采纳。\n15 法庭：谢谢。\n16 律师？\n17 CONWAY先生：基于证据基础提出类似异议，\n18 即此前对证据13和14所提出的异议。我是否可以\n19 通过援引将其纳入？\n20 法庭：谢谢。您的异议已记录。\n21 受托人证据15、16、17、18和19\n22 不顾异议，全部准予采纳。\n23 BASSETT先生：谢谢，法官阁下。\n24 （受托人证据15作为证据收录）\n25 （受托人证据16作为证据收录）\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 （受托人证据17作为证据收录）\n2 （受托人证据18作为证据收录）\n3 （受托人证据19作为证据收录）\n4 BASSETT先生：此时，我只想向受托人就某些其他证据\n5 提出几个问题。\n6 由BASSETT先生询问：\n7 问：请您翻到活页夹中的\n8 受托人证据4。\n9 BASSETT先生：也请在屏幕上\n10 展示受托人证据4。\n11 由BASSETT先生询问：\n12 问：受托人Despins，您是否了解\n13 该证据是什么？\n14 答：是。这是Nevada州务卿网站中某一特定部分的\n15 屏幕截图。\n16 不是整个网站，而是与Taurus Fund有关的内容。\n17 问：您是否了解该证据\n18 是如何取得的？\n19 答：是。我要求团队前往该\n20 网站，提取关于这些\n21 Taurus实体能够获得的任何信息。\n22 问：该屏幕截图是他们从\n23 州务卿网站截取的内容？\n24 答：正确。\n25 BASSETT先生：法官阁下，我方提出该\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 95 of\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n1 证据的主要目的，是证明州务卿网站所报告的\n2 Taurus Fund, LLC的实体状态\n3 为违约，正如页面中部附近所示。\n4 我不认为此事存在争议。但为该\n5 目的，我方申请将受托人证据4作为证据采纳。\n6 法庭：律师？\n7 CONWAY先生：无异议。\n8 法庭：谢谢。\n9 准予采纳4，抱歉，证据4全部准予\n10 采纳。\n11 BASSETT先生：谢谢，法官阁下。\n12 （受托人证据4作为证据收录）\n13 由BASSETT先生询问：\n14 问：接下来，我想请您注意，受托人Despins，\n15 受托人证据12。受托人Despins，您知道\n16 该证据是什么吗？\n17 答：是。这是LexisNexis（律商联讯）搜索的屏幕截图。因此，\n18 法庭显然熟悉LexisNexis，但我们一直使用它\n19 进行搜索。我曾指示\n20 团队对Kwok先生进行搜索，结果显示\n21 其在Mahwah豪宅拥有一个地址。\n22 问：该搜索何时进行？\n23 答：我想是July。我忘了具体日期。我认为是\n24 ——是的，July 11th。\n25 BASSETT先生：说到这里，法官阁下，我方将\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯平斯）——直接询问——Bassett（巴塞特） 96 将受托人证物12作为证据提交。本庭：律师？CONWAY先生（康韦）：显然，在我进行询问的前提下，我没有异议。本庭：谢谢。证物12全部准予作为证据采纳。（受托人证物12收作证据）BASSETT先生：我打算向受托人出示的最后一份证物，而且再次说明，我认为无需受托人在证人席上，我也可以处理其余证物；下一份是受托人证物6。请将其调到屏幕上。证人：好的。由BASSETT先生询问：问：请慢慢来。Despins受托人，您准备好后，我只想问您是否认得这份证物？答：认得。问：这是什么？答：这是AIG（美国国际集团）向Golden Spring（金泉）就某些豪华汽车签发的一份保险证明或保单声明页。问：您是如何取得这份保单的，或者您是否知道这份保单是从哪里取得的？案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第96页，共\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins——直接询问——Bassett\n\n1 答：是的，来自Wolfson（沃尔夫森），我们的经纪人，或者Genever（Genever）的经纪人，即我们所称的Genever U.S.（Genever美国），因为Linsey先生（林赛）——我们在康涅狄格州的律师——正在询问Genever U.S.的保险保障范围。\n\n2 经纪人出示了这个，并基本上说，Genever U.S.正在为这些汽车支付保险费。正是在那时，他开始询问，既然被保险人姓名是Golden Spring，这怎么可能？这就是我们取得它的经过——基本上这就是他们发送给我们的材料。\n\n10 问：谢谢。您提到这是针对某些豪华汽车的。\n\n12 BASSETT先生：请向下滚动到该文件的第二页。\n\n14 我只想请本庭注意页面底部的驾驶人说明。其中列出的第二名驾驶人为Gerald Scott Barnett（杰拉尔德·斯科特·巴尼特）。在其上方，您会看到，根据本保单承保的汽车是三辆不同的Mercedes（梅赛德斯），按此处载明的约定价值，每辆均价值超过\\$100,000。\n\n21 就此，法官阁下，我们将受托人证物6作为证据提交。\n\n23 本庭：律师？\n\n24 CONWAY先生：无异议。\n\n25 本庭：谢谢。\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第98页，共\n\nLuc Despins——直接询问——Bassett 98 证物6全部准予作为证据采纳。BASSETT先生：非常感谢，法官阁下。（受托人证物6收作证据）BASSETT先生：现在我就一个相关话题向受托人提几个问题。由BASSETT先生询问：问：Despins先生，今天听证会开始时，我们查看了您在本案中提交的宣誓书。我的记忆是，您在该宣誓书中用了相当大的篇幅解释，为什么您认为如果不发布禁令，破产财产将受到损害。我只是想就该话题向您再提几个问题。我的理解是，Despins受托人，您所寻求的部分救济——此前对此已有讨论——不仅是防止该财产被出售或设定负担，而且您还寻求要求占用该财产的人员腾出该财产、对该宅邸加以保护，并授权美国法警局（U.S. Marshal's Office）提供协助的救济。我的问题是，您为什么认为此类救济是必要的？答：这个回答有多方面，但我会先从我们今天看到的情况说起，即该房屋内有若干艺术品、艺术作品。因此，那些物品并未固定在原处。它们并非——它们可能会离开\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第99页，共\n\nLuc Despins——直接询问——Bassett\n\n1 那里，您知道，它们可能会，您知道，消失。\n\n2 而证词，嗯，证词——两名进行查看之人之间的对话——是，该艺术作品比房屋本身更——价值更高。这不是证据，但我知道那些艺术作品价值数十万美元，甚至数百万美元，因为我们从用于Mei Guo（郭梅）房间的镜子的收据等材料中可以看出这一点。因此，关键是我们知道那里有非常昂贵的艺术作品。\n\n10 所以，说房屋不会被出售，这就是保护，或者人们不会处置其中任何资产，这是一项不错的意向声明，但在实践中无法执行。让我解释我的意思。\n\n15 Taurus, LLC（Taurus有限责任公司）、Taurus Fund, LLC（Taurus基金有限责任公司），是于取得该财产当日设立的一家公司。据我们所知，它没有其他资产，除了钢琴——我们稍后会回到钢琴问题——但除Mahwah mansion（马瓦宅邸）外，它没有任何其他资产。\n\n21 我们对本案的理论是，由于Kwok先生（郭文贵）作为所有人，或者受托人，拥有该财产。\n\n24 因此，让该实体向我们作出某种不做坏事的承诺或协议——我不想对此无礼，但这毫无价值，因为那是我向我自己作出陈述。也就是说，如果他们不这样做，如果发生坏事，权利请求将针对该实体，而其唯一资产就是马瓦宅邸。因此，这有些循环论证。如果有一些个人——有钱、真正有钱的人——愿意签署担保、个人担保，以保证该财产受到保护，我愿意听取。但让理论上拥有它的公司这样做，而我们显然认为他们并不拥有它，并且认为有强有力证据表明他们不拥有它，这并不能解决问题。因此，里面有非常昂贵的资产，可能被移走。财产本身可能受损。您已掌握的是——我们在此已经确立——存在流动人员，人们——这就像大学宿舍。人们走进走出。他们可能有最好的意图，我不知道。但我知道一件事：一旦他们知道我们正在追索该财产，而他们现在确实知道了；他们此前不知道，但现在知道我们正在追索该宅邸；如果他们认为自己会输掉那场争斗，那么局面就完全不同了，因为保护\n\nLuc Despins——直接询问——Bassett 100 他们所谓的庇护所的激励机制已不再相同，因为他们极有可能失去该庇护所。而且那些人不承担责任。我们不知道他们是谁。我们不知道谁进来、谁出去，也不知道什么规则对此进行约束。而Taurus本身，即被指称的所有人，正争取给予——继续给予所有这些人进入权，这说明了您需要知道的一切。也就是说，如果该公司由Warren Buffett（沃伦·巴菲特）所有，他不会在意谁在该财产内，他会希望保护该财产。但Taurus希望这些人进入那里，因为Taurus就是Kwok。这说明——您知道，这就是——这就是本案的整个前提。因此，这里存在真实风险。我们知道有资产被藏匿。\n\n所以您可能会说，该宅邸不会自行移动。好。它可能受损。但我们从许多例子中知道这一点。\n\n我们最近知道，并且根据涉及Yvette Wang（王雁）的刑事案件中发生的情况及其保释获释的情况，政府提交了证据，表明Wang女士从监狱中就如何清空G Club（G俱乐部）的邮政信箱作出指示，信箱内装有数百万美元的支票或现金。这是一项。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins——直接询问——Bassett\n\n1 因此，这意味着人们不会犹豫去做这类事情。\n\n2 然后我们知道，您知道，Wang女士将Ace Decade（艾斯十年）的产权转让给了一名瑞士居民，因为这使我们很难去取得该资产。嗯，不是取得该资产，而是在瑞士向该人送达，因为涉及在瑞士进行国际送达的各种规则。\n\n8 我们知道，债务人的女儿在本案期间出售了一架飞机；显然，作为一名29岁的人，她并不拥有一架价值可能\\$15 million的Bombardier Jet（庞巴迪喷气机）。她以超过\\$10 million的价格将其出售。当我们问她谁持有该笔款项时，唯一的回答是一个男人。\n\n14 所以这里存在一种模式——本案中还有许多其他资产被藏匿的例子。\n\n17 您可能会说，嗯，那是Mei Guo，不是他们。\n\n19 关键在于，此时显然他们正作为一个团队行事。对破产财产而言，维持这种现状极其危险，在这种现状下，据我所知并非所有人的人，他们不支付租金，也没有租约，却能进入该财产。这实在是——\n\n25 我相信还有其他我一时想不起来的资金被藏匿的例子，但关键在于存在一种模式，风险极大，这是实实在在的资产，那里有价值数百万美元的动产，\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第103页，共\n\nLuc Despins——直接询问——Bassett\n\n1 而且由并非所有人、并非出租人、也不支付租金的人占有，从破产财产的角度来看，这实在是一个非常糟糕的处境。\n\n7 问：我们今天早些时候看到了视频，显示New Federal State of China（新中国联邦）的代表在——在该房屋内。您此前在本案中与新中国联邦的成员有过任何经历吗？\n\n12 答：有广泛的经历。这不是个人问题，但我们知道他们是在债务人的指使下行事，因为，您知道，他们来到我家、我女儿们的家进行纠察，而且还存在整个过程。例如，提交这些债权申报，即我所称的虚假债权申报，数额达数亿美元，其目的在于阻碍受托人程序，并确保处理此事将耗费巨资。当然，这是在Kwok先生的指使下进行的。\n\n21 而提交这些债权申报的人与New Federation of China（新中国联邦）有关联，因此，这并非猜测，他们直接参与了这些阻碍受托人程序的活动。\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第104页，共\n\nLuc Despins——直接询问——Bassett\n\n问\n\n因此，根据你刚才所述，在本案中你对 NFSC（新中国联邦）成员所作的那些观察以及你所经历的事情，这使你相信：如果他们认为你将在这项对抗程序中胜诉，并取得对马瓦宅邸的所有权和控制权，可能会发生什么？\n\n答\n\n我不愿对此进行推测。我只是……对我而言，很明显，可能会发生非常糟糕的事情；如果结果是我们拥有该房产，而该房产或其中的物品发生不好的事情，破产财产可能会遭受沉重损失。\n\n这就是为什么，您知道，我知道，例如，使用美国法警可能被一些人视为手段过于强硬，但关键在于，我们必须制止目前在那里发生的这种完全不受限制的自由进出，因为——先不论是否存在不良意图，根本没有任何控制。我们不知道谁拿走了什么，或者谁没有拿走什么。\n\n所以，我并不是说，事实上，除了那架显然已经消失或遗失的钢琴以外，我并不是说他们实际上偷了东西。关键在于，根本没有任何控制。有数百人在那里。有一些证物我们尚未审阅，但我们展示了这些活动中人们的情况，房间里有数百人。天知道可能会发生什么。\n\n案件 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 105 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯平）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n问\n\n德斯平受托人，我们之前谈到过你与司法部进行的一些沟通，我相信你所提交的临时禁令动议中也提到，你一直在与司法部协调，就马瓦宅邸达成可能的和解或协议。你是否有关于此事的最新情况向法院说明？\n\n答\n\n是的。如法官阁下所指出，今天上午 9:55 已提交一项批准和解的动议。我们今天并不寻求批准该动议。正如我们在寻求临时限制令和临时禁令的动议中所指出的，在某处的脚注中我们说过，我们正在就马瓦宅邸进行讨论，因为马瓦宅邸在司法部寻求没收的资产清单中。不过，他们今天无法取得没收，因为尚无刑事定罪。\n\n有必要就该资产与他们进行沟通，因为我不想处于这样一种境地：我们为了取得马瓦宅邸做了所有这些前期工作，到最后他们说非常感谢，我们从你们手中接管它。然后，破产财产因推进本案、取得安保以及为取得该房屋所做的所有工作而支出大量资金。因此，基本上我就是这样告诉他们的。\n\n案件 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 106 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯平）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n他们认识到这是一个问题。他们说，好吧，我们现在不能就马瓦出售所得款项的最终处置与受托人达成协议，如果将来有出售的话；但我们可以确保，第一，受托人产生的所有费用——不仅是 Paul Hastings（宝诚律师事务所）的费用，而是所有费用，包括安保人员、保险、销售经纪人；再次说明，这是以法院最终批准出售该房产的动议为前提——但所有这些费用都将从马瓦房产的价值中优先扣除。因此，该房产的价值当然超过 20 million。这样，破产财产的状况不会更差。\n\n但除此之外，司法部同意我们将协商一项条款，即除实际费用优先扣除外，还将有一笔一百万美元的视为费用。因此，这不是一项——它是一项视为费用。它是在实际费用之外，归入破产财产、用于债务人受害人的利益，受害人将在本案稍后界定。\n\n因此，破产财产不仅不会承担费用和开支，而且还将——在此之外获得保证的一百万美元。\n\n但更重要的是，这不是上限。\n\n法官阁下，就该房产以及其他资产，仍须与司法部进行讨论。例如，存放在被冻结账户中的 \\$630 million。\n\n案件 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 107 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯平）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n正如您从您审理过的那个案件中所知，我忘了案件名称，其中 Zeisler（蔡斯勒律师事务所）有一名合伙人被任命为接管人，我认为他也是 Chapter 11（第 11 章）受托人，或者说，我又把这些事情稍微混淆了；但关键是，过去在涉及欺诈的案件中，也就是说，如果存在定罪，Chapter 11 受托人获司法部授权，根据破产法院将批准的程序，处理向债务人债权人分配资产的事宜。\n\n因此，我们距离那一步还很远，但要说明的是，这可能是朝那个方向迈出的一份蓝图或一个桥头堡。因此，我不会把这看成是，哦，我们是为了百万美元而这样做。不。这是试图与他们合作，因为我们相信，处理这一切最有效的方式，是通过破产法院程序，将这些资产分配给获准债权的持有人。再次说明，谁持有获准债权、谁不持有，尚待确定。但这会为破产财产增加很大价值，因为所涉及的资金池要大得多。\n\n因此，该和解动议目前并不在法院审理之中。我希望法院知悉它，并知悉我们已提交该动议，以便您知道背景中正在发生这件事。它并不涉及案件结束时的核心事项。\n\n案件 22-50073\n文书 2118\n提交于 08/24/23\n登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯平）—直接询问—Bassett（巴塞特）\n\n它只涉及该房产的问题。\n\n再次明确说明，我们与司法部达成了一项协议，即他们不会干预我们就该房产所采取的行动。因为他们本可以说，等一下，这是刑事案件中的一项资产，我们将反对。因此，他们没有这样做。\n\n他们已同意，如果发生出售，所有费用将从出售所得中优先扣除。他们还同意，除上述费用外再提供一百万美元，该款项最终将根据本法院的命令在本案中分配给债务人的受害人。\n\n抱歉说得很长，但让法院知道背景中正在发生这件事很重要。\n\n问\n\n谢谢。\n\n巴塞特先生：\n\n并且，法官阁下，还有一份我原本打算早些时候向受托人出示的证物。在此基础上，我认为目前没有其他问题。\n\n但如果可以，请法庭书记员调出标记为受托人证物 5 的文件。\n\n由巴塞特先生询问：\n\n问\n\n我仅为记录说明，该文件似乎是你与 Zeisler & Zeisler（蔡斯勒与蔡斯勒律师事务所）的若干律师、Sherry-Netherland（雪莉-荷兰人公寓）的一名代表，以及 Struck Law Firm（斯特拉克律师事务所）的某人之间的一串电子邮件，对吗，德斯平受托人？\n\n答\n\n是的。\n\n问\n\n日期是 June 20th, 2023？\n\n答\n\n正确。\n\n问\n\n那么，你能否非常、非常简要地说明一下，这封电子邮件的——\n\n答\n\n可以。\n\n问\n\n——这封电子邮件的背景是什么？\n\n答\n\n背景是债务人在 Sherry-Netherland 留有个人物品。他们想要——家属想要取回这些物品。对此我们没有异议，所以我们为他们装了 21 箱，或者 20 箱、21 箱，是的，21 箱。因此，这里 Romney（罗姆尼）先生告诉我，谁会来取走这些箱子。是 Barnett（巴尼特）先生，他是此处 Taurus（托罗斯）实体之一的经理，也是司机和保镖。他将其称为郭先生的安保人员。\n\n巴塞特先生：\n\n是的。为记录说明，邮件中写道：曾在 Sherry 为郭先生从事安保工作的 Scott Barnett（斯科特·巴尼特）将来取走这些箱子。法官阁下，我们申请将受托人证物 5 作为证据提交。\n\nConway（康韦）先生：\n\n无异议。\n\n法院：\n\n谢谢。证物 5 全部准予作为证据接纳。\n\n案件 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 109 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯平）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n（受托人证物 5 收为证据）\n\n巴塞特先生：\n\n因此，法官阁下，此时可能还有大约五份其他证物——我必须查看我的清单——我们将作为我方本证部分提交，但我认为不需要该证人出庭。我认为那些文件均属自证文件。因此，目前我已完成询问，并将该证人交由对方进行任何交叉询问。\n\n法院：\n\n律师，交叉询问？\n\n康韦先生：\n\n谢谢，法官阁下。\n\n由康韦先生进行交叉询问：\n\n问\n\n下午好。\n\n答\n\n下午好。\n\n问\n\n让我从你最近的证词开始，往前追溯，因为这样对每个人都更容易。你提到，你与司法部正在推进一项协议，他们将允许你追索这所房屋，尽管它是他们在刑事事项中主张的一部分。你所说的他们的主张是什么意思？\n\n答\n\n我是在简略地说。它并非他们主张的一部分。针对债务人、Wang（王）女士以及 Je（杰）先生存在刑事起诉。作为其中一部分，司法部已确认若干资产可能被没收。\n\n案件 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 110 页，共\n\n案件 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 登记于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 111 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯平）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n没收须待定罪后方可发生，因此这就是我所说的他们主张的一部分。它并非他们目前正在追诉的主张，但他们已将马瓦宅邸认定为这些资产之一；按照他们的说法，该资产将可能被没收。\n\n问\n\n你是否曾就此与 FBI（联邦调查局）的这些人员进行交谈？\n\n答\n\n没有。是美国检察官、助理美国检察官。\n\n问\n\n好的。\n\n答\n\n是的。\n\n问\n\n他们是否告诉你，为什么这所房屋是他们调查和可能提出没收主张的一部分？\n\n答\n\n因为他们认为其中涉及欺诈所得。\n\n问\n\n“欺诈所得”是什么意思？\n\n答\n\n郭的所得——你必须阅读起诉书——即其中所指控的欺诈、洗钱、证券欺诈的所得，即所指控犯罪的所得，您知道，根据他们的指控，这些所得被用于购买该房产，以及修缮和改善该房产。\n\n问\n\n好的。因此，如果我正确理解了你的意思，请告诉我是否有误，司法部认为，如你所称的马瓦宅邸，是用某种犯罪所得购买和改善的，在该犯罪中，有人被诱骗为此目的交出他们的钱？\n\n1 答\n我不知道具体情况。\n你必须查看该\n2 起诉书。\n但是，你知道，我认为就\n3 其所指控的内容而言，这本身已经说明了一切。\n4 问\n好的。\n那么，让我们——让我倒回去。\n我告诉过你，我\n5 将从末尾开始，而我现在要一路回到\n6 开头。\n7 你确实提到了新中国联邦（New Federal State of China），并且\n8 有人问你它是什么、它做什么，你说它是\n9 Kwok先生（郭文贵）的一个组织。\n10 让我再问你一次，你对\n11 该实体的理解是什么？\n12 答\n你用了“实体”这个词，我不确定——我不确定\n13 它是一个——我不认为它是一家公司。它是一个——它\n14 是他创立的某种组织，而且，你知道，\n15 曾作出各种声明，说要向其提供数百万美元，\n16 等等。\n17 它正式所做的是对抗中国\n18 共产党。这是他们的标题。它实际上所做的\n19 可能不同于此，也就是说，它\n20 被用来服务于他的目的，例如阻碍Chapter 11\n21 程序，或骚扰参与Chapter 11\n22 程序的人。\n23 问\n我们在其中一些视频中看到的人，我无法\n24 想象你会按证物编号知道每个视频的内容，\n25 但让我请你回顾其中几个\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）113 它们非常相似。我相信是第25号和第26号证物；你看到一些人站在桌子后面，手里拿着玫瑰或鲜花，你还记得那些视频吗？答 记得。问 他们是新中国联邦的成员吗？答 我认为他们是自称为该组织成员的人，是的。问 听起来是这样。答 是的。问 他们称自己为“战友”？答 正确。问 “战友”是什么？答 你得问他们。我推定这是在与中国共产党斗争的语境中，但我并不确切知道。这不是我们给他们贴的标签。他们自称为斗士。问 好的。而且——这些视频中有这样一种主题，即那些自称的战友很感激能够来到Mahwah（马瓦）那座宅邸，将其作为他们行动的某种基地，这是你从那些视频中得到的印象吗？答 嗯，这是他们希望其他捐钱的人相信的，没错。问 好的。最后一次有人捐钱是什么时候？答 此时此刻仍有人在捐钱。Case 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 113 of\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 114 of\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）\n\n1 问\n你怎么知道？\n2 答\n因为网上有。\n我们获得——我们获得\n3 举报人的信息，不是刑事举报人，而是\n4 被欺诈的人，他们说，看，他们在这里募款，\n5 在那里募款，例如为Yvette Wang（王雁平）的辩护\n6 募款，或者为参与这些案件、\n7 代表关联实体的律师支付费用。\n8 问\n好的。你是否知道有任何此类\n9 由战友筹集的资金被用于\n10 购买Mahwah宅邸？\n11 答\n我不知道。\n12 问\n那Mahwah\n13 宅邸内的财产物品呢，例如我们刚才看到的那张纸上\n14 列出的物品？\n15 答\n你是在问我，战友是否购买\n16 或支付了这些物品？\n17 问\n据你所知？\n18 答\n嗯，我对此会有很强的怀疑。通常\n19 这些人经济能力非常有限，所以这就是我们看到\n20 通过这些银行账户，有数百、数千笔\n21 $5,000、$2,000等等的捐款的原因。\n22 这些人并不富裕。\n他们没有大量\n23 资金。他们买不起价值$250,000的镜子。\n24 问\n对。对。现在，你在你的起诉状中主张\n25 该房屋由Taurus Fund, LLC购买，正确吗？\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 115 of\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）\n\n1 答 嗯，产权登记人，即所称的产权登记人，是的。\n2 正式的产权登记人是Taurus Fund, LLC。\n3 问 对这一事实，你心中没有争议，是吗？\n4 答 没有。我认为这不是完整的答案，但\n5 从技术上讲，产权持有人是Taurus Fund, LLC。\n6 问 好的。而且我不想在没有\n7 证物的情况下持续提及它。请给我一点时间。\n嗯，我将不得不这样做，因为我不记得哪一份证物是\n8 那份附有所有那些艺术品的某种\n9 发票的证物。你记得那份证物，对吗？\n10 答 是。是。\n11 问 而且你在证言中指出，那是一份要求将货物\n12 交付至该宅邸的发票，正确吗？\n13 答 正确。\n14 问 而且这些货物的购买方是Taurus Fund, LLC，\n15 正确吗？\n16 答 发票上是这么写的。\n17 问 好的。让我们回到事情的核心。\n18 你已经处理本案有一段时间了，对吗？\n19 答 有一点，是的。\n20 问 做了很多调查？\n21 答 是。\n22 问 在本案上投入了很多律师时间？\n23 答 是。\n24 问 而且你的律师已经调查了许多与本案有关的银行\n25 记录，对吗？\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 116 of\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）\n\n1 记录，对吗？\n2 答\n我们已经调查了。\n3 问\n好的。债务人从哪里得到购买\n4 Mahwah宅邸的资金？\n5 答\n首先，在司法部（DOJ）所指称的此处事件发生之前，\n6 债务人就已有资金，也就是说，债务人基于其在中国的\n7 投资或交易是一名亿万富翁，因此我毫不怀疑\n8 他有资金支付该款项。\n9 问\n你毫不怀疑，但你没有证据，正确吗？\n10 BASSETT先生：\n异议。\n11 证人：\n好的。\n12 BASSETT先生：\n这歪曲了他的证言。\n13 证人：\n嗯，这里有许多关联，但\n14 起诉书准确陈述了此处发生的事情，\n15 也就是说，他的副手，你知道，\n16 William Je（叶简明）参与为人们投资这些G Coins或\n17 Himalaya Coins筹集资金，而那是他获得资金的\n18 部分途径。\n19 但此外，我确知他曾经拥有数十亿美元，\n20 这是基于我们迄今为止累积的大量证据。\n21 \n22 由CONWAY先生询问：\n23 问\n你是否做过任何追踪分析，显示用于购买该房屋的\n24 资金来自债务人拥有的账户？\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 117 of\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）\n\n1 答\n债务人从不拥有账户，任何账户都不拥有，\n2 事情不是这样运作的。总是由表亲、女儿、\n3 妻子或William Je持有，否则债务人就不能成为\n4 债务人。这就是他的运作方式。你永远不会找到\n5 有他名字的账户。实际上，曾经有一个，\n6 但那是在2015年。在那之后，他知道自己不能取得\n7 账户。但这并不妨碍他拥有所有这些\n8 资产。衡平法上的所有权的关键就在于，\n9 他住在那里，享用它，实际上拥有它，\n10 但他绝不会拥有任何东西的产权。这是该\n11 计划的一部分。\n12 问\n好的。那么，让我们聚焦于本案标的Mahwah宅邸，\n13 因为当我们谈论该计划时，\n14 事情会变得非常混乱。你可以说任何事都是\n15 该计划的一部分。\n16 我现在要你聚焦于该宅邸。而且我们\n17 刚才听到你作证称，司法部认为用于购买\n18 该宅邸的资金\n19 来自债务人的受害人？\n20 答\n就部分资金而言。他们作出这种指控，\n21 这是正确的。\n22 问\n其余资金来自哪里？\n23 答\n嗯，我认为来自债务人本人。\n24 问\n好的。\n25 答\n而且如我所说，你绝不会找到从\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）\n\n1 Kwok向任何人汇款的记录，因为那并不存在，\n2 但这并不意味着那不是他的钱。\n3 因为当你有一名司机时——我们来谈谈该司机是这一实体的\n4 管理成员。\n5 除了认为这是Kwok的资产之外，任何人还能如何合理解释？\n6 谁会让某个人的司机负责一座\n7 $26 million的宅邸？唯一说得通的方式是，\n8 该司机所服务的人是所有人。\n9 顺便说一下，这不是唯一因素，但这是\n10 一个相当有说服力的因素。\n11 问\n好的。那么，你知道，让我们看看这一点。你是否——\n12 你是否看到任何证据，或某种像你今天在网上看到的\n13 视频，表明——Kwok先生或\n14 新中国联邦担心来自中华人民共和国及其\n15 代理人的干预？\n16 BASSETT先生：\n就关联性提出异议。而且我认为\n17 这超出了直接询问的范围。我不知道这与我提出的任何问题\n18 有什么关系。\n19 法院：\n我认为这超出了\n20 直接询问的范围，因此我将支持该异议。\n21 CONWAY先生：\n法官阁下，证人刚才说\n22 唯一合理的——没有合理理由让\n23 Barnett先生与该财产有关联。\n24 法院：\n但你提出的问题涉及\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）\n\n1 来自中国的干预，那是你的问题。\n2 那与——我们尚未就Barnett先生确定任何事实，\n3 当然也没有确定他以任何方式与\n4 中国有关联。\n5 所以你可以提出不同的问题，但我\n6 支持对该问题的异议。\n7 由CONWAY先生询问：\n8 问\n在你今天出示的这些文件中，Barnett先生是否被列为\n9 Kwok先生的安保人员？\n10 答\n所以你是在问我，他是否是Kwok先生的保镖？\n11 \n12 问\n我是在问，你要求法官今天审阅的这些\n13 文件是否显示，他参与此事的原因\n14 是他担任Kwok先生的安保人员？\n15 答\n我不确定我理解你的问题。他是一名\n16 保镖，或者曾经是一名保镖，尽管他现在不需要\n17 保镖，因为他在监狱里，所以，不过他曾是\n18 安保人员。但是什么，我不确定——我并未\n19 抱怨他担任保镖。我只是指出，让一名\n20 保镖担任一座$26 million宅邸的管理人，\n21 完全没有任何可信性。\n22 问\n那么，是否确实有人担心在Mahwah宅邸内\n23 安装窃听装置？\n24 答\n我对此一无所知。\n25 问\n你是否对此进行过任何调查？\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 120 of\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）\n\n1 答\n那不属于我的管辖范围。窃听装置？\n2 问\n所以你不知道——你不知道Barnett先生\n3 为何会参与Mahwah宅邸，但你尚未\n4 调查他为何会参与\n5 Mahwah宅邸的可能性。是这样吗？\n6 答\n我要告诉你，我敢打赌他在日常层面\n7 与那座宅邸毫无关联。\n8 问\n好的。而且他不是——我认为——我不知道你是否\n9 本意要作出这一证言，但你并未作证称Barnett先生\n10 是Mahwah宅邸的所有人？\n11 答\n没有。他是——实际上，他现在是一名\n12 受托人，因为这些公司根据Nevada（内华达州）法律处于违约状态。\n13 发生这种情况时，管理成员就成为——成为其\n14 资产的受托人，因此他是两名受托人之一。\n15 \n16 问\nTaurus Management, LLC是Taurus Fund, LLC的管理人，\n17 这正确吗？\n18 答\n我忘记是哪一个，但其中一个实体\n19 处于违约状态。基于这一既定事实，根据Nevada法律，\n20 Barnett成为该实体、该违约公司资产的\n21 共同受托人之一。我得查看证物才能确定\n22 是哪一个。\n23 问\n好的。没有必要查看。我相信在\n24 本案过程中，我们会弄清Barnett先生做什么。\n25 但他没有在任何地方被列为管理成员或\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 121 of\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德潘）－交叉询问－Conway（康威）\n\n问 他是 Taurus Management, LLC（Taurus Management 有限责任公司）的所有者吗？\n\n答 他被列为——我的意思是，我们有——我确信我们提交的文件在这一点上是准确的。我不记得确切情况。但他肯定是某个 Taurus 实体的管理成员，因为我们不是凭空编造的。我的意思是，这在内华达州的申报文件中——申报文件里。因此我们查阅过这些文件。我确信那里会有。所以他肯定作为管理成员或现为受托人参与其中。这是我们所主张的。\n\n问 在内华达州发生的失效情形是什么？\n\n答 未提交某些文件，或者，您知道，未更新文件，或诸如此类。\n\n问 事实不是仅仅未缴纳数百美元的申报费吗？\n\n答 关于这一点，我不确定是否如此。我认为是未提交年度报告或类似文件。\n\n问 好的。不过您提交给法官的文件上并没有这样说，对吗？您想再看一看吗？\n\n答 该文件大概没有——没有这样说，但我确信我们的书面材料实际准确说明了发生了什么，以及为何其处于失效状态。\n\n问 好的。那么，您已表示您不知道债务人的任何资金是否被用于购买这栋房屋，即 Mahwah（马瓦）豪宅，对吗？\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n答 不，那不是我所说的。我说的是，您绝不可能证明债务人任何银行账户曾有电汇或转账，因为债务人一无所有。这正是整个安排的核心。\n\n问 房屋内的财物也是如此，您没有证据证明债务人购买了其中任何物品，对吗？\n\n答 嗯，当发票写着“这件放入 Mei（梅）的房间”“这件放入老板的房间”时，他们经常那样称呼他，即老板，您就知道那是给他们的。不是给某些未具名的新中国联邦人。这是给——这是他们的房子。这是——\n\n问 谁写了那些注记？\n\n答 那是在发票上的。我的意思是，当然不是我们写的那些注记。FBI（美国联邦调查局）也不是写注记的人。因此肯定是——这是从 Mahwah 豪宅取得的。\n\n问 您知道谁写了那些注记吗？\n\n答 不知道。我不知道是谁写的。\n\n问 现在，您——您证称您曾与 FBI 进行过这些谈话。您从 FBI 获得了这些照片。我们都看过这些照片。它们现已被准予作为证据。我推定 FBI 认定其中一些财产属于 Kwok（郭文贵）先生，这是真的吗？\n\n答 嗯，他的处方药。\n\n问 这是一个“是”或“否”的问题。\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n答 是的。我想是这样。是的。他的驾驶执照。所有带有他姓名的东西。那是他的家庭照片，是的。\n\n问 我并不真正关注纸张。\n\n答 好的。\n\n问 我只是说，他们在该地点发现了他们认为属于债务人的物品和财产，对吗？\n\n答 嗯，不仅如此，这些还显示这是他的房子。比如有29套西装上绣有他的名字。\n\n问 好的。我们就关注那些。我试图让您回答一个“是”或“否”的问题。\n\n答 抱歉。好的。\n\n问 但如果这能让您满意，我们就关注西装。FBI 发现那些西装之后，发生了什么？\n\n答 我完全不知道。\n\n问 他们对其进行了清点吗？\n\n答 嗯，我知道他们数过这些西装。FBI 突袭时的程序是什么，即他们——一旦清点财产并拍摄这些照片后，我不知道他们会如何处理。因此，不。答案是我不知道他们是带走了还是留在那里。\n\n问 我们看过照片的其余与债务人有关的财产呢，他们带走了还是留在那里？\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n答 我认为他们带走了当时在那里的车辆。但除此之外，我不确定。\n\n问 他们是否告诉您，他们认为该财产——不是纸张，而是他们在该处所发现的有价值财产——同样是用不当资金购买的财产？\n\n答 他们没有这样说。除起诉书所载内容之外，您需要阅读他们在其中所说的内容，但除该豪宅本身之外，我们没有就具体物品进行过讨论。\n\n问 好的。如果我问您关于那些西装的情况，您的回答是否相同，即无法知道 Kwok 先生自己的钱是否被用于购买那些西装？\n\n答 这是不可能的。他没有钱。顺便说一下，那些西装每套大概价值 $5,000 至 $10,000。因此，关键在于您永远找不到一张账单，证明——嗯，您会到处发现他的名字，但他从不直接支付任何东西。\n\n问 现在，Kwok 先生多久在 Mahwah 豪宅过夜一次？\n\n答 我们认为，根据视频，我们刚刚向您展示的只是一个样本，但根据我们看到的带有这些金色柱子的直播，他经常在那里以及在 Sherry-Netherland（雪莉-荷兰人公寓）过夜，也就是说——不是每月一次或类似的情况。\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n问 为记录起见，Sherry-Netherland 是什么？\n\n答 那是纽约市的一套公寓，债务人享有使用权。\n\n问 您是否确定他多久在那里一次？\n\n答 不确切。不过我们从视频中知道，因为我们现在知道背景。我们知道这是 Sherry-Netherland 的背景。这是 Mahwah 的背景。他经常在这两个地方。而且我会说，在 Mahwah 豪宅，您知道，有大量他从带有金色柱子的房间进行直播的视频。\n\n问 好的。您并不确知他每次拍摄视频时都在该地点过夜，对吗？\n\n答 嗯，根据他留下的物品，我会说是的。\n\n问 为什么？\n\n答 因为像我这个年纪的人，不会——不会把处方药留在不睡觉的地方。也就是说，您不会去不同的地方并把处方药留在那里。那是您的家。那是您的房子。\n\n问 所以，您知道——我们知道他至少在那里过夜过一次，因为他把处方药留在那里？\n\n答 不。但不只是这一点，家庭照片，所有东西都是——\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n问 这使您相信他经常在那里过夜？\n\n答 很多次。也就是说，谁会把家庭照片留在酒店里？我的意思是，如果他的情况是每月去那里一次，您不会把家庭照片留在那里。这本质上表明他经常使用那个地方。\n\n问 好的。现在，在我们看到的视频中，那个——让我看看，我相信在我们取得片段翻译时，我们听到证物21的片段八提到，G Club（G俱乐部）拥有该房屋，并允许战友使用。\n\n答 我不认为我听到 G Club 拥有该房屋。他们提到了 G Club，意思是 G Club 的人可以来参观该房屋，但我没有听到任何人说 G Club 拥有该房屋。\n\n问 好的。\n\n答 也许您听到了。我没有听到。\n\n问 您是否调查过 G Clubs（G俱乐部）是否对该房屋拥有任何所有权权益？\n\n答 G Club 就是 Kwok。我的意思是，这——丝毫不会改变我的看法。\n\n问 是的。“G Club 就是 Kwok”是一个相当笼统的说法，您知道。那么，例如，如果一家信誉良好的第三方公司审计了进入 G Clubs 的每一美元，并确定 Kwok 先生并非向 G Clubs 投入资金的人，这会改变您的看法吗？\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n答 正如我所说，他从不投入资金——您永远无法证明他直接投入了资金。这不是这件事的运作方式。但我想看看——我想看看您所说的内容。如果这类财务报告确实存在，我想了解他们在出具那些财务报告时知道些什么。\n\n问 好的。但一般而言，我们唯一能够确定 Kwok 先生是否在此拥有所有权权益的方式，是对资金来源进行某种审计，对吗？\n\n答 嗯，我们刚刚聘请了一家法务会计师事务所，将对所有这些账户进行资金追踪分析，因此最终我们将获得更多相关信息。但归根结底，我认为这不会改变基本前提，即所有这些卫星公司、Golden Spring（金泉）、G Club 等等，全部由 Kwok 管理、由他控制，并用于他的目的。\n\n问 嗯，管理一家企业并不必然意味着那是他的企业，对吗？\n\n答 这取决于——取决于该企业被用于什么，以及谁获得利润，谁能够从中取用。如果您能够从中取用并购买一架喷气机，那么即使您并不拥有它，那也是一种所有权形式。但如果——如果那家公司向英国汇出 $2.5 million 用于购买一架喷气机，而——\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第128页，共\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n谁在使用该喷气机，比如 New Federal State of China（新中国联邦）？不是。是他或他的儿子，等等。因此，这——是一种所有权形式。这就是我们在这里所拥有的。\n\n问 这是您在这里所拥有的。实质上，他使用它，因此它就是他的？\n\n答 不。不仅仅是他使用它，而是他控制它。他享有——他控制它。他享有其全部利益或大部分利益，也就是说，新中国联邦的成员得不到飞机。他们得不到游艇。他们得不到 Sherry-Netherland 公寓。只有他得到这些。因此，这——而且这种生活方式每年花费数百万美元。这些钱被取出。因此，这是一种所有权形式，不是法律上的所有权，但他能够从那些公司中取用并使用那些资金购买房屋，或者购买汽车，购买，您知道，$5,000 的雪茄。这是一种所有权形式。\n\n问 我不知道他们——\n\n答 衡平所有权。\n\n问 我不知道他们有 $5,000 的雪茄。\n\n答 我也不知道，但他说那些雪茄值这个价。\n\n问 那么，再次让我们聚焦于这里的资产——\n\n答 是的。\n\n问 ——因为我对您提到的所有其他——\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第129页，共\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n资产一无所知。我只关注 Mahwah 豪宅。二十一间卧室，对吗？\n\n答 我认为是正确的，但我不——我不知道是21间还是22间。\n\n问 就说大约吧。\n\n答 很多卧室。\n\n问 好的。\n\n答 您知道。\n\n问 如果其他任何人在那里过夜，他们就是所有者吗？\n\n答 不。不。\n\n问 但他因为在那里过夜就是所有者？\n\n答 如果那是唯一因素，我会说，不，那是错误的。但他——他控制该资产。\n\n我不知道您是否注意到，但新中国联邦在他入狱之前无法进入该房屋。在那之后，他可以任由该建筑物空置，或者告诉他的追随者“我为你们买了这个。这全都是给你们的。”\n\n因此，关键是，在那之前，并不是——并不是有数百人进进出出。我向您保证。他有保镖。他不会允许这数百人进出该建筑物。因此，不仅是他在那里过夜，在他入狱之前，那是他的房子。\n\n案件 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第130页，共\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n问\n嗯，我认为我们已经在你的证物中看到，这栋房子花费了 $28 million，对吗？\n\n答\n对。\n\n问\n而且已经进行了约 $17 million 的翻修，对吗？\n\n答\n大致如此。但具体改建金额是多少，我并不确切知道。\n\n问\n好的。在我们今天一开始看到的视频中，即证物 21，他们反复提到该房屋仍未准备就绪。它仍在翻修中，对吗？\n\n答\n嗯哼。这样他们就可以向人们解释为什么他们不能全都来。\n\n问\n那么，在翻修完成后，人们就开始来了，对吗？\n\n答\n它们永远不会完全翻修完毕，因为那样——记得他解释过会有一个计划。我们会告诉你何时可以来。多寄些钱来，然后你就可以来。这就是这些事情的运作方式。\n\n问\n嗯，你说，多寄钱然后你就可以来，但事实是，从这些据称由 DOJ（美国司法部）保护的受欺诈者那里收取的钱，是多年前收取的，不是吗？\n\n答\n请界定“多年前”。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 131 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n问\n在过去两年内？\n\n答\n嗯，那不算多年前。\n\n问\n两年？\n\n答\n是。我们谈的是哪一部分，G Club、Himalaya Coins，还是其他计划？\n\n问\n只聚焦于这栋房子，用于这栋房子的钱？\n\n答\n是。\n\n问\n那笔钱显然是在购买该房屋之前收取的，对吗？\n\n答\n嗯，是的。但同样，这里假定全部金额都是从这些人那里收取的。他通过其他来源已经控制了一些钱。\n\n问\n好的。坦白说，你是这里的受托人，所以让我直接问你，这确实由法官决定，但让我问你，如果你看到一份文件，向你表明这些钱的来源，而且全都来自一个来源，这会令你满意吗，还是说没有任何事情能令你满意、证明这些钱并非来自债务人？\n\n答\n这是个公平的问题。我会说，我们不要天真地认为，有很多人可以充当幌子来付款，并使其看起来合法。这并不意味着你就止步于此。你必须了解他们从哪里获得这笔钱？这要视情况而定。我想了解该公司的\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n历史。我知道有一家公司是在交割当天设立的。好的。因此该公司没有过往历史。所以我们想了解这笔钱从何而来？\n\n而且，对于提供该笔资金的公司或个人，我想了解他们是如何获得这笔钱的。因此你实际上不能——你总是必须再往下一层探究。\n\n我理解你会说，嗯，何时该停止？这是个好问题。\n\n但我认为，我们在这里已掌握足够情况，知道这些转账每天都在快速而频繁地进行，数额达数千美元，银行账户不断地被开立、关闭，始终如此。始终如此。我们知道——我们现在对用于支付律师事务所的转账、他们如何支付这些款项，了解得更多了。还有一些本不应出售财产的公司出售了财产。那些钱流向了参与本案的律师事务所，诸如此类。我们现在知道得更多了。\n\n因此你必须——我必须为我的怀疑程度道歉，但在告诉你没问题之前，我会想了解全貌。\n\n问\n这很公平。我认为这正是我们在这里的原因。在任何人拿走任何人的财产之前，我们正努力向法官展示全貌。\n\n答\n嗯，我们不是——这不是为了拿走该财产。这是为了现在保护该财产。任何所有人都应当对我们正在努力做的事情感到满意，那就是保护该财产。没有人去那里。那里有保安人员。该财产是安全的。这应当是任何人共同的目标。\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 133 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n问\n对。你刚才所作的证言似乎——似乎有一种推论，即因为该内华达州公司是在不动产转让当天成立的，所以其中存在某些不正当之处。你并不是想说这件事有什么不正当之处，对吗？\n\n答\n不是。我的意思是，该公司没有任何历史，而且很难相信它拥有其他资产。这回到了我所说的那一点，即让该实体向我保证他们不会做任何错事，并不能使我达到保护破产财产所需的程度。\n\n问\n你从事这项工作很久了。你知道，LLCs（有限责任公司）一直都是为了购买不动产而设立的——\n\n答\n当然。\n\n问\n——一直如此，对吗？\n\n答\n当然。我不是——这里的重点不是——这里的重点是，该实体没有拥有其他资产的业绩记录，而这些资产可以——你知道，如果有——正如我所说，如果有人愿意为从现在起至本案作出裁定期间该财产发生的事情承担责任，我\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n洗耳恭听。但必须是真正有钱的真正当事人，而不是我们认为归我们所有的一家公司。\n\n问\n在我结束关于那些视频的问题之前，再次说明，我并非要让你记住哪个视频对应哪个证物编号，似乎有——至少在我看来，有大约四个与在 Mahwah mansion（马瓦庄园）举行的活动有关的视频，不包括 Kwok先生（郭文贵）的直播，仅指那些活动。因为是你提供了这些视频，这是否——是否是你的理解？\n\n答\n是。是的。\n\n问\n好的。你记得那些活动是为了什么吗？\n\n答\n是。它们实质上是筹款活动，只是不称其为筹款活动。那是 New Federation of China（新中国联邦）的三周年或四周年纪念日。因此他们把 Bannon（班农）带到那里。他们把 Santos（桑托斯）带到那里。他们发表演讲，并要求人们多寄些钱，因为郭兄弟在监狱里。我们需要帮助他。\n\n问\n好的。所以那不是每天都会发生的事情。那些是拍摄这些视频时实际举行的活动？\n\n答\n是。但这里暗示其他日子该财产内没有人，这是不对的。\n\n问\n我不会这样暗示。我的意思是，那个，而且请原谅，我对本案太陌生了，必须不断查看，New Federal State of China（新中国联邦），从我们在此所能看到的情况来看，他们仅举办过四场活动，你知道，正式活动，即\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 135 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n你所知晓并且取得了与所有这些活动相关视频的活动？\n\n答\n不是。我知道他们一直从那里直播。至少每周六一次，因此这意味着有人进入那里。我们看到的那些人，即所谓的“记者”，那十名在那里的人。拍摄视频的人等等。因此——有许多活动。\n\n而且记住，在这些事情中，他们邀请追随者来参观，因此对——谁进入那里毫无控制。\n\n问\n是的。我答应过你会另行谈直播，但活动视频，那些——那些仅仅是你所知在过去一年中的四场大型活动，对吗？\n\n答\n嗯，首先，这些全都是在 3 月 15 日之后拍摄的，所以——自 3 月 15 日以来有四场活动，这是非常短的记录。大型活动？是。\n\n但我知道一直在进行直播。我知道 George Santos（乔治·桑托斯）曾与一群人到过那里。因此不断有人流进入那里。\n\n所以我会犹豫是否说只有四场活动。我认为我不能这么说。\n\n问\n但你不能说有更多？\n\n答\n嗯，我知道桑托斯去过那里。我知道他们至少每周从那里直播一次或两次。因此这涉及一群人。\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 136 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n问\n好的。Kwok先生被监禁后进行的直播，是谁在进行那些直播？\n\n答\n你知道，是联邦的人和 GETTR，可能是 GETTR，或者与他们有关联的人，或者一些 HCHK 的人，或者前 HCHK 的人。因此——这并不像 HBO（美国有线电视家庭影院）这样的公司在做这件事。这是——是同一群人在做这件事。\n\n问\n但你知道这些活动正在发生，是因为你在 GETTR 上看到了它们？\n\n答\n是。我们看到了。我知道 Song女士监控那些内容，她会看到它们，并定期向我们报告那里所说的内容、谁在那里，等等，等等。\n\n问\n好的。自 Kwok先生被监禁以来，该处所大约发生过多少此类活动？\n\n答\n我认为每周至少两次，外加其他活动。而且，正如我所说，我不知道，我也不认为该庄园是封闭的。很多人到那里，也许会进入。每次他们直播时，我不该说每次，他们经常直播时都会有一位新嘉宾，即某个刚从 Kansas（堪萨斯州）或 Florida（佛罗里达州）顺道来访的人。因此始终有人进入那里。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\n问\n你知道 G Clubs 的目的是什么吗？\n\n答\nG Club 的合法目的？理论上，是销售服装。\n\n问\n销售服装？\n\n答\n嗯，销售时尚产品，你知道，G Fashion、G Club。G Club 还有——还有一个方面，即让人们获得参加活动或类似事情的机会。\n\n问\n或者向其 9,000 名成员展示，身处一个自由、民主的社会并拥有财产是什么样子？\n\n答\n不。对此有一个讽刺的回答，但我不打算说。我不知道那——如果那是 G Club 的目的，我不知道那是否确实是 G Club 的目的。\n\n问\n好的。所以我确实只是想让你回到今天下午你我开始谈论的地方。你谈到 FBI（联邦调查局）前往该庄园，并在那里发现了一些财产。我们谈到了车辆。你认为车辆被 FBI 拿走了？\n\n答\n是。\n\n问\n好的。你知道它们现在在哪里吗？\n\n答\n不知道。\n\n问\n好的。再次说明，我更关注的是，根据你与 U.S. Attorney's Office（美国联邦检察官办公室）的谈话，就马瓦庄园而言，你对债务人受害人是谁的理解是什么？\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 138 页，共\n\nLuc Despins（卢克·德斯潘）—交叉询问—Conway（康韦）\n\nBASSETT先生（巴塞特）：\n异议。我认为我们此前已经讨论过这一点，且证人已经回答了这些问题，并就该事项作了证言。\n\n法庭：\n我将允许该问题，并驳回异议。\n\n证人：\n那么，您能重复一下问题吗？\n\nCONWAY先生（康威）询问：\n\n问 在不涉及前言部分的情况下——\n\n答 是。\n\n问 ——在您与美国检察官办公室（U.S. Attorney's Office）就 Mahwah mansion（马瓦宅邸）的受害人是谁进行交谈后，您的理解是什么？\n\n答 嗯，这里您混淆了两件事。Mahwah mansion 是未来没收程序中的没收目标。但我不确定，为了达到该目的，是否必须有与 Mahwah mansion 有关的受害人；也就是说，可能存在犯罪的受害人。如果犯罪所得被用于购买 Mahwah mansion 的一部分，那么他们可以寻求没收。因此，当您问我 Mahwah mansion 的受害人时，我不确定我能否就此作证。\n\n问 对于债务人的任何受害人——这些受害人被取得的款项最终被用于购买 Mahwah mansion——您能就此作任何证言吗？\n\n答 如我所说，这是政府（Government）关于没收的理论。我无需证明这一点。我只需证明该房产在衡平法上归 Kwok（郭文贵）所有。\n\n问 我问的是一个具体问题。您是否知道存在任何受害人，有人——无论是政府还是您——主张其交出了钱款，该等钱款系通过某种欺诈取得，随后被用于购买 Mahwah mansion？\n\n答 嗯，存在——\n\nBASSETT先生：\n法官阁下，我仅提出一项关联性异议。我的意思是，这不是——这不是刑事案件。我们并非试图证明受害人。我们试图证明该住宅的所有权。\n\n法庭：\n律师，您的回应？\n\nCONWAY先生：\n我们正在——我们不能两头都占，法官阁下。要么这里存在某种受害人，而 Kwok先生以某种方式取得了他们的钱并购买了该宅邸；要么是其他人购买了该宅邸，而 Kwok先生并不拥有它。因此，我在询问——我是在给受托人一个机会，让其明确表示，是的，我认为属于其他人的钱款被使用了，但这些钱款是 Kwok先生从他们那里骗取的。如果是这样，他们是谁？\n\n法庭：\n嗯，目前有一项异议待决，而您刚才又问了第二个问题。\n\nCONWAY先生：\n嗯，我——\n\n法庭：\n但是针对第一个问题有一项异议待决，即您问的是谁是受害人，对吗？这不就是您的问题吗？谁是受害人？\n\nCONWAY先生：\n前面还有很多前言，但大致是那个意思，是的。\n\n法庭：\n好的。Bassett先生，您的异议是——您是在说——该问题因涉及刑事程序而不具关联性？\n\nBASSETT先生：\n我的异议是，在本对抗程序中，谁是所谓的“受害人”并不是争点——\n\n法庭：\n我认为 Despins先生已经回答了该问题，那是他刚才给出的最后一个回答。因此，律师，我想我不确定您的问题是什么，因为除了 Despins先生——Despins先生之外，我想我刚才听到他说，我不需要证明政府需要证明的事项。我只需要以某种方式证明这是本破产财产的一项资产。我想这就是他说的。因此，我将允许您再问一次这个问题，但我不确定我是否理解您的问题。我想我理解了，但我不确定。所以请您再试一次。\n\nCONWAY先生：\n我会重新表述该问题，法官阁下。\n\nCONWAY先生询问：\n\n问 这里的理论是——抱歉，这个问题是前言性的，并且重复了我们已经讨论过的内容，但在此时似乎有必要。这里的理论是，该住宅属于债务人或债务人的破产财产，对吗？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 但您没有任何关于债务人从何处获得购买该住宅的钱款的证据，对吗？\n\n答 没有。我们有起诉书中的证据。而且，如我告诉您的，在这些特定计划启动之前，债务人已拥有数十亿美元。因此，我们毫不怀疑，债务人——债务人本人，您知道——直接或间接为此提供了资金。但如我告诉您的，您永远无法证明存在一个以其姓名开立的银行账户进行了该笔转账。因此，如果您问我这个，我无法证明。但我确信，是他控制了投入其中的资金，并且他拥有这些资金，因为他能够取得并使用这些资金。因此，我——我想我是在重复自己，但这确实是关键所在。\n\n问 好的。因此，如果实际上在本案中，向您出示证据表明资金来自何处，而该资金并非来自债务人控制的账户，这是否意味着其必须来自受害人？\n\nBASSETT先生：\n异议。我甚至不理解这个问题或其关联性。\n\n法庭：\n我理解。我认为——我认为 Despins先生实际上可以回答该问题。我将驳回您的异议。\n\n证人：\n所以，问题是，如果它并非来自债务人控制的账户——“控制”作宽泛定义，因为他实际上从未有文件证明的控制权——\n\nCONWAY先生询问：\n\n问 我接受您对此的说法。\n\n答 ——至少这是我们目前对情况的看法，这是否意味着它来自受害人？很可能。很可能。\n\nCONWAY先生：\n好的。法官阁下，我暂时问完了。\n\n法庭：\n您对该证人的询问已经结束，直到——\n\nCONWAY先生：\n该证人。\n\n法庭：\n律师，我们要进行重新询问吗？\n\nCONWAY先生：\n我假定会进行，所以。\n\n法庭：\n对。好的。很好。谢谢。Bassett先生？\n\nBASSETT先生：\n谢谢，法官阁下。再次说明，法官阁下，我是 Paul Hastings（保尔·黑斯廷斯律师事务所）的 Nick Bassett（尼克·巴塞特），代表受托人。就重新询问，我只有几个问题。我希望会相当简短。\n\n案号 22-50073 文档 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯潘）—重新询问—Bassett 143\n\n重新询问\n\nBASSETT先生询问：\n\n问 Despins受托人，在交叉询问期间，您被问及一些问题，涉及您在调查中已经了解到或尚未了解到的该住宅资金来源等事项。您何时被任命为本案受托人？\n\n答 去年7月。\n\n问 自那时起，您一直在进行调查。但您最初何时得知 Mahwah mansion？\n\n答 说来惭愧，是在3月15日。\n\n问 您是如何在3月15日得知此事的？\n\n答 因为我们看到了起诉书。在此之前，我们完全不知情。\n\n问 因此，在本案现阶段，您是否已经完成对 Mahwah mansion 的调查，包括其如何取得以及可能与本对抗程序相关的所有其他事实？\n\n答 没有。该调查仍在进行中。\n\n问 您是否打算作为本对抗程序的一部分寻求证据开示？\n\n答 当然。\n\n问 那么，您是否理解，Federal Bureau of Investigation（联邦调查局，FBI）已对债务人及其事务进行了调查，包括 Mahwah mansion？\n\n答 是，他们进行了调查。\n\n问 他们何时提交起诉书？\n\n答 该起诉书于3月15日公开，但我——他们可能在此之前就已提交。但我并不完全掌握该事项，不过大约是在那个时候。\n\n问 在交叉询问期间，您提到您理解 Department of Justice（司法部，DOJ）在起诉书中主张，Mahwah mansion 是以债务人欺诈行为的所得购买的？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 那发生在 FBI 完成调查之后？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 您是否拥有 FBI 和 DOJ 在其调查中取得的全部文件和信息？\n\n答 没有。债务人一直在抗拒向我们提供这些材料，因此我们正在设法取得。\n\n问 除我们今天看到的这些照片以外，您是否取得过任何与政府在起诉书之前进行的调查有关的文件证据开示材料？\n\n答 没有。\n\n问 您被问及过 Taurus Fund, LLC（金牛基金有限责任公司）的经理或成员，您记得吗？\n\n答 记得。\n\n问 如果可以，我想请您查看受托人证据3。\n\nBASSETT先生：\n如果可以，请将其显示在屏幕上。如果可以，请向下滚动。\n\nBASSETT先生询问：\n\n问 Despins受托人，您是否认出这是如文件所示从 Nevada State Office of the Secretary of State（内华达州州务卿办公室）取得的文件？\n\n答 是，我认出。\n\n问 如果您翻到该文件的第四页，也就是往下四页，抱歉，下一页，在本页中，写着“设立有限责任公司”，并且“组织章程”旁边有一个勾选标记，您看到了吗？\n\n答 看到了。\n\n问 然后是在内华达州登记的名称，Taurus Fund, LLC，您看到了吗？\n\n答 看到了。\n\n问 Taurus Fund, LLC 是被告，也是 Mahwah mansion 的名义所有人，对吗？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 现在，如果您再往下看，抱歉，抱歉，就看上一页最下面，其中第六项写着每名经理或管理成员的姓名和地址，您看到了吗？\n\n答 看到了。\n\n问 在右侧方框中列有两个姓名，您能为法庭念出这些姓名吗？\n\n答 可以。Taurus Management, LLC（金牛管理有限责任公司）和 Scott Barnett（斯科特·巴内特）。\n\n问 Scott Barnett 就是在交叉询问期间您被问及的个人，对吗？\n\n答 正确。\n\n问 好的。如果您看该文件的下一页，本页有限责任公司设立表格在第12栏设有经理或成员姓名和签名的位置，您看到了吗？\n\n答 看到了。\n\n问 那里显示的是谁的签名和姓名？\n\n答 又是 Scott Barnett。\n\nBASSETT先生：\n法官阁下，此时我提交受托人证据3。我认为这是一份可自行认证的文件，因此我原本打算单独处理，但由于它在交叉询问期间被提及，我此时请求将其作为证据提交。\n\n法庭：\n律师？\n\nCONWAY先生：\n无异议。\n\n法庭：\n好的。谢谢。证据3全部准予采纳。\n\nBASSETT先生：\n谢谢，法官阁下。\n\n（受托人证据3已收为证据）\n\n巴塞特先生发问：\n\n问：德斯平先生（Luc Despins），您面前是否有一份诉状材料夹的副本？应当是写着——\n\n答：授权书材料？\n\n问：授权书材料。好了。\n\n答：有。\n\n问：前面应当有一份索引，其中提到了起诉状，您看到了吗？\n\n答：看到了。\n\n问：您能否替我翻到该文件？\n\n答：可以。\n\n问：在我请您查看该文件中的某一特定段落之前，您是否记得，在交叉询问期间，有人就究竟发生了什么向您提出了一些问题；如您所作证，该等事情导致 Taurus Fund, LLC（Taurus基金有限责任公司）的管理人成为受托人？\n\n答：记得。\n\n问：请您翻到起诉状第31段，在第10页。\n\n答：好的。\n\n问：其中写道，根据 Nevada Revised Statute Annotated section 86.2632，Taurus Fund 的年度信息清单应于 December 31st, 2022 到期。由于其未及时提交，Taurus Fund 根据内华达州法律被视为处于违约状态。您看到了吗？\n\nLuc Despins（吕克·德斯平）—复询问—巴塞特 148\n\n答：看到了。\n\n问：这是否是您对于该实体如何处于违约状态——\n\n答：是。\n\n问：——以及管理人因而被转为受托人的理解？\n\n答：是。这是我的记忆。是的。\n\n问：德斯平受托人，您还被问及一些关于 G Club（G俱乐部）以及通过 G Club 募集的资金与 Mahwah mansion（马瓦豪宅）之间可能关系的问题；我想律师曾问您，您是否认为这些都是过去几年发生的事，但您今天坐在这里是否了解 G Club 是否仍是一个在运作的载体？\n\n答：不了解。我认为它已经不复存在了。\n\n问：您听说过 G Club 尊享会员吗？\n\n答：模糊听说过。\n\n问：您知道那些——那些会员——那是怎么回事吗？\n\n答：知道。他们支付了更多费用，并被承诺得到某些东西，但我不确定他们是否得到了。\n\n问：您提到 G Club 已经——您说——不复存在。我们在本案中进行过证据开示，您曾向 G Club 寻求文件，您记得吗？\n\n答：记得。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 148 of\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nLuc Despins — Redirect — Bassett\n\n问：最近，您是否就试图从 G Club 获取文件发生过争议？\n\n答：是的。如法院所知，这是 HCHK（HCHK）对抗程序中的一个热点问题；我们希望通过 HCHK 获得这些文件，而 G Club 正试图对此加以抵制。\n\n问：您是否记得——您是否记得作为该证据开示的一部分，其中一个问题是 G Club 的领导层发生了变化？\n\n答：记得。他们任命了一名独立管理人，或者类似的人。是的。\n\n问：因为之前的管理人离开了？\n\n答：全都辞职了。是的。\n\n问：那么——您知道那是什么时候发生的吗？是在对债务人提起起诉书之前还是之后？\n\n答：在起诉书之后。\n\n巴塞特先生：没有其他问题，法官阁下。\n\n法院：谢谢。\n\n律师，还有再交叉询问吗？\n\n康威先生（Conway）：基于刚才的内容，没有，法官阁下。\n\n法院：好的。谢谢。\n\n好了。德斯平先生，您可以退席。谢谢。\n\n（证人退庭）\n\n法院：巴塞特先生？\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—August 14, 2023 150\n\n巴塞特先生：是，法官阁下。因此，法官阁下，正如承诺的那样，此时我们还有几份尚未提交入案卷的补充证物，我认为不需要受托人在场。我只是想确保我有一份完整清单，列明哪些我已经取得，以及哪些已经提交入案卷。\n\n因此，法官阁下，在受托人证物清单上，我们可以调出这些文件，并在需要时查看；如果不需要，也可以不看。我认为，倘若它们与我们将在结案陈词中提出的论点相关，我的同事卢夫先生（Luft）将对此作出说明。但我们希望提交入案卷的证物清单中的第一份证物，实际上是出于整理和良好秩序的考虑，即受托人就向被告送达临时限制令所出具的送达证明。该文件为受托人证物1。\n\n我不会，您知道，不会请法院注意其任何特定部分。它已经提交在 ECF 案卷中，但再次说明，我们希望它成为案卷的一部分，因此请求将受托人证物1中的该送达证明准予作为证据提交。\n\n法院：律师？\n\n康威先生：无异议。\n\n法院：好的。谢谢。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 150 of\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023 151\n\n巴塞特先生：谢谢，法官阁下。受托人证物1全部准予作为证据提交。\n\n（受托人证物1收为证据）\n\n巴塞特先生：下一份证物是受托人证物2，我们此前尚未处理。如果可以的话，请将该证物调到屏幕上。\n\n法官阁下，我认为受托人证物2这一文件也——其内容不言自明，而且是一份自证真实性的文件。这是从 Bergen County Office（卑尔根县办公室）调取的、载有该契据的档案副本，上面有列明的印章。如果您向下滚动到——嗯，在第一页上，我很抱歉，我只是想指出几件事。如果您向上滚动回来。对不起。\n\n其登记日期为 December 29th, 2021。如法院所知，这大约是在本案破产申请提交前两个月。第二名称，也就是买受人的名称，您会看到是 Taurus Fund, LLC。在此第一页底部，载有支付的对价，即 $26 million。如果您翻到 PDF 的第12页，还有一件事我想提醒法院注意。\n\n康威先生：法官阁下，我只想说，鉴于该文件尚未作为证据提交，他有些像是在作证；但我不会反对将其作为证据提交，之后他就可以宣读该文件。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 151 of\n\nCase 22-50073\nDoc 2118\nFiled 08/24/23\nEntered 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023\n\n法院：好的。那么证物2全部准予作为证据提交。谢谢。\n\n巴塞特先生：谢谢。\n\n（受托人证物2收为证据）\n\n巴塞特先生：我唯一还想请法院注意的是第——这是第12页吗，是的，房产分类，在页面中间，那里打勾的标记是2类住宅。\n\n法官阁下，下一份尚未作为证据提交的证物是受托人证物9。该证物只是 Taurus Management, LLC（Taurus管理有限责任公司）的组织章程，该公司是 Taurus Fund, LLC 的两名管理人之一。另一名是 Scott Barnett（斯科特·巴尼特）。如无异议，我们请求将该文件作为证据提交。\n\n法院：这是什么文件？\n\n巴塞特先生：这是——这是从 State of New Mexico Secretary of State（新墨西哥州州务卿）处取得的。\n\n法院：好的。\n\n巴塞特先生：如我们——如我们在，我想是证物2，不，是证物3中所看到的，那是 Taurus Fund, LLC 的组织章程。Taurus Fund, LLC 是该房产的名义所有人；根据其组织章程，Taurus Fund, LLC 有两名管理人。其中一名是 Scott Barnett。另一名是 Taurus Management, LLC。\n\n而这份文件是从 New Mexico Secretary of State（新墨西哥州州务卿）网站调取的、关于 Taurus Management, LLC 的文件。我们也希望该文件成为案卷的一部分。因此，我们请求将其作为受托人证物9提交为证据。\n\n康威先生：嗯，我反对大部分陈述，因为那不属实。我不反对接纳该文件。\n\n法院：您能否翻到这份文件的第——就第1页。我刚才没有看到它。不知为何，我在——哦，这只是封面页。好的。我以为会有不同的标题或其他内容。好了。\n\n那么，文件的第一页就是这一页，对吗，顶部带有印章的这一页？\n\n巴塞特先生：正确，法官阁下。\n\n法院：好的。好的。证物9全部准予作为证据提交。\n\n（受托人证物9收为证据）\n\n巴塞特先生：我想还有几份证物。下一份是受托人证物11。哦，很抱歉。很抱歉。那不对。是受托人证物10。这也是另一份，法官阁下，公共记录文件。\n\nCase 22-50073 Doc 2118 Filed 08/24/23 Entered 08/24/23 12:21:15 Page 154 of\n\nDespins v. Taurus Fund - August 14, 2023\n\n巴塞特先生：我认为它是自证真实性的。它来自 United States Department of the Interior National Park Service, National Register of Historic Places（美国内政部国家公园管理局国家史迹名录）。其中载有向国家史迹名录登记的有关该房产的信息，包括其历史性质。我认为对此不存在争议。\n\n而且，我们认为该文件也应准予作为证据提交，我请求此时将其作为受托人证物10准予提交。\n\n法院：律师，您对接纳受托人证物10有异议吗？\n\n康威先生：没有，法官阁下。\n\n法院：好的。谢谢。\n\n巴塞特先生：关于这份特定证物，我想指出的一点是在 PDF 的第7页。如果您再往下滚动。抱歉。再往上一点。\n\n第7页第二段写道，根据 Township of Mahwah（马瓦镇）与 Darlington Associates（达灵顿联合公司）即所有人之间的协议，该豪宅的外部应由所有人修复，并作为单户住宅使用。我只是想请法院注意这一点。\n\n法院：好的。谢谢。\n\n巴塞特先生：法官阁下，证物清单上另一份我希望尽可能调到屏幕上的文件是受托人证物20。\n\n法官阁下，坦率地说，受托人证物20是一份我认为法院可以直接予以司法认知的文件。这是法官阁下在本案中作出的一项裁决。这是在有关抗议活动的 PAX（PAX）诉讼中，部分准许初步禁令动议的经更正决定备忘录。\n\n我很乐意——我认为，基于今天所作的评论，为什么法院在作出该裁决时认定的大部分内容具有相关性，已经很清楚。我们认为，使其成为案卷的一部分很重要。\n\n再者，在本程序的简易审理阶段，即使律师主张由于其未参与其中而构成传闻，传闻证据在本程序的这一阶段仍可采纳。因此，我们请求也将证物20准予作为证据提交。\n\n康威先生：我不知道它是什么，也不知道它如何相关，因此我将以相关性为由提出异议。不过，我认为您可以对它予以司法认知。\n\n巴塞特先生：关于相关性问题，我们同意由法院对其予以司法认知；但我愿意指出，除其他事项外，该裁决第2段和第4段中，法院认定 NFSC（NFSC）与债务人有关联、附属和/或存在联系。\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n在第6段中，本院认定，NFSC 涉及该诉讼中争议的抗议活动。在第7段中，本院认定，债务人是 NFSC 的领导人。NFSC 服务于债务人的目的，其作为债务人的商业工具，其成员对债务人个人忠诚。这些只是该命令中高度相关的若干认定。法庭：好的。证物20全部准予入证。（受托人证物20收为证据）BASSETT先生：阁下，仅再提交两项、再提交两项证物。首先是受托人证物清单中的证物28。这是本院将会熟悉的另一份文件。这是纽约法院的 Ostrager 法官于 February 9, 2022 在 PAX 诉讼中作出的裁决和命令。我认为，本院同样可以对该裁决进行司法认知。就其相关性及我们为何提交该文件而言，我要指出的是，我们仅请求本院注意 Ostrager 法官在该裁决中的认定；本院对此非常熟悉，且该认定已在本对抗程序的起诉状中提及，即债务人曾利用法人实体从事第22-50073号案件 文件2118 提交日期08/24/23 登记日期08/24/23 12:21:15 第156页，共\n\n第22-50073号案件\n文件2118\n提交日期08/24/23\n登记日期08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 Ostrager 法官所谓的“障眼法”，\n2 其目的在于使其资产免受债权人追索。\n3 再次说明，这就是我们请求\n4 准予引入该文件的目的。而且，我再次认为，\n5 在本诉讼的这一阶段引入该文件是适当的，\n6 因为我们正在进行\n7 初步禁令程序。\n8 CONWAY先生：再次，我不知道该文件\n9 与本程序是否有任何相关性。我也不知道\n10 该文件是否可以作为司法认知的对象，\n11 但阁下可以告知我。\n12 BASSETT先生：再次，阁下，我只想\n13 补充说明，其相关性仅限于\n14 我所提到的目的。我们并不请求将该\n15 裁决的所有方面作为证据采纳，而仅是\n16 Ostrager 法官就债务人\n17 运作方式所作出的认定；该事项是受托人作出广泛证言的\n18 主题。\n19 因此，我认为——顺便说一句，该证言\n20 是在交叉询问中引出的，所以我认为它——它\n21 当然具有相关性。\n22 法庭：受托人证物28\n23 全部准予入证。\n24 BASSETT先生：谢谢，阁下。\n25 （受托人证物28收为证据）\n\n第22-50073号案件 文件2118 提交日期08/24/23 登记日期08/24/23 12:21:15 第158页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 BASSETT先生：受托人\n2 证物清单中我们请求准予作为\n3 证据采纳的最后一项证物是证物29。这是对郭先生和 William\n4 Je 提起的刑事起诉书副本，\n5 该起诉书是今天此处大量证言的主题。\n6 我们显然理解，\n7 鉴于这是一份起诉书，其中的陈述目前仅为\n8 指控。但我们确实认为，起诉书中的\n9 指控事实、起诉书所列举的事实以及\n10 司法部得出的结论，\n11 具有相关性，而且高度相关。\n12 而且我认为，鉴于该等指控\n13 尚未得到证明，本院显然只会在此时\n14 赋予该文件其认为适当的证明力。\n15 如有帮助，我可以逐一说明\n16 具体段落，但正如今天的证言\n17 已经显示，其中有大量陈述称\n18 债务人使用欺诈行为所得收益购买了\n19 Mahwah 豪宅。因此，\n20 我们基于该理由请求将受托人证物29准予作为\n21 证据采纳。\n22 法庭：律师？\n23 CONWAY先生：阁下，尚未建立\n24 证据基础。律师已表示，他并不主张\n25 其中任何指控属实。我们甚至不知道\n\n第22-50073号案件 文件2118 提交日期08/24/23 登记日期08/24/23 12:21:15 第159页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 为何其中会有这些指控。我甚至不确定\n2 其相关性何在，因为我们有一份密封的起诉书，其中\n3 载有大量尚未得到证明的指控，\n4 而且我们不知道这些信息来自何处。\n5 因此，阁下，我以证据基础为由提出异议。\n6 法庭：谢谢。\n7 BASSETT先生：阁下，首先，\n8 该起诉书已经解封。律师——\n9 法庭：律师可能不知道这一点。\n10 但该起诉书目前已解封。自今年3月起\n11 即已解封。\n12 但是，为回应你提出的异议，也说明我为何\n13 将驳回你的异议，除该文件已有大量\n14 证言涉及之外，\n15 今天已经有很多关于该文件的证言，\n16 如果不是在起诉状的多处提及，也在起诉状中被提及；此外，债务人的\n17 律师今天上午9:55在本对抗程序中提交了一封信，\n18 其中谈到他们不知何故——我并不\n19 十分确定债务人打算做什么，只知道\n20 该信现为本对抗程序中的 ECF 25，\n21 于今天上午9:55提交，是 Henzy 律师的来信，\n22 其中谈到了该豪宅，\n23 并知悉今天举行初步禁令听证会。\n24 该信第3段称，我谨致函\n25 向阁下报告，债务人通过其刑事\n\n第22-50073号案件 文件2118 提交日期08/24/23 登记日期08/24/23 12:21:15 第160页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 律师，拟向 United States District Court（美国联邦地区法院）\n2 提出一项动议。为此，债务人拟请求一项\n3 命令。在此过程中，债务人拟寻求一项\n4 命令，规定继续——规定继续进入\n5 该不动产，并在刑事案件解决前或刑事案件作出进一步命令前，\n6 防止对该不动产或其\n7 内容物作出任何变更。\n8 因此，我认为该文件具有相关性。而且，\n9 由于其为公开文件，无须建立证据基础。债务人\n10 本人已通过在本对抗程序中提交该信而使其成为争议事项。\n11 起诉状提及该起诉书。\n12 并且今天有大量关于该起诉书的\n13 证言。\n14 因此，我驳回你的异议。\n15 受托人证物29全部准予入证。\n16 （受托人证物29收为证据）\n17 BASSETT先生：谢谢，阁下。\n18 就证物而言，我的提交到此为止。\n\n承蒙法庭宽容，我将向我的同事确认一下，以确保我们没有其他事项。法庭：请便。\n\nBASSETT先生：阁下，受托人证据的提交至此结束。非常感谢。\n\n法庭：好的。谢谢。\n\n第22-50073号案件\n文件2118\n提交日期08/24/23\n登记日期08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 Conway 律师，您是否希望提交任何\n2 证据？\n3 CONWAY先生：我当然希望，阁下，但我\n4 任职时间尚不足以\n5 像我今天早些时候所提到的那样组织此事。\n6 我想我应当指出，我认为阁下\n7 说临时限制令明天届满，是这样说的吗？\n8 法庭：是的。该命令——该命令于\n9 August 1st 下午两点，我记不清是 2:06 还是 2:07，\n10 登记在案。因此，根据 Rule 65，它届满，对吗？\n11 它不是明天届满吗？还是\n12 后天？我不知道。我得再次查阅规则，不过。\n13 CONWAY先生：无论是明天还是后天，\n14 我理解它很快就会届满。\n15 法庭：是。\n16 CONWAY先生：我想这或许就是\n17 当我向 Bassett 先生请求延期时，\n18 他可能不愿意的原因。并不是他不\n19 喜欢我，只是我当时不知道。\n20 因此，阁下，显然，根据我们听到的事实，\n21 我们知道存在很多疑问。\n22 这里最重要的是存在疑问。而且我\n23 绝对希望能够提出一个案件，以便在\n24 阁下就初步禁令作出决定之前，对其中一些指控作出\n25 回应。\n\n第22-50073号案件 文件2118 提交日期08/24/23 登记日期08/24/23 12:21:15 第162页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 也许我们可以约定延长\n2 临时限制令，以便给我时间完成必要工作，\n3 收集我所需的证据，并实际审阅文件，\n4 我必须承认，我仅有机会粗略浏览。我\n5 今天早上才收到其中的大部分。因此，如能有\n6 该时间将会很好。\n7 而且，在我们能够仅通过约定\n8 延长临时限制令来解决其届满问题的范围内，\n9 这或许可以使\n10 本院更容易根据完整的证据作出决定。\n11 法庭：那么，你们必须——如果你愿意，我可以短暂休庭，\n12 你们可以讨论此事，但我显然不知道\n13 立场会是什么。\n14 我会——我会给你们一些时间讨论\n15 你们是否将延长，是否将同意依照\n16 Rule 65(b)(2) 延长。\n17 请便。请便。\n18 BASSETT先生：阁下，我认为不——\n19 法庭：你的意思是——你的意思是，我认为，\n20 Bassett 先生，在你说之前，没有必要休庭，\n21 因为你们不会同意？\n22 BASSETT先生：是的，阁下。\n23 我认为今天早些时候我们对此已经作过一些讨论。\n24 我们今天到庭所寻求的不仅仅是继续维持现有的临时限制令，\n25 而是进一步救济，即\n\n第22-50073号案件 文件2118 提交日期08/24/23 登记日期08/24/23 12:21:15 第163页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）—2023年8月14日\n\n1 我们一直在讨论并在我们的文件中请求的救济，即确保我们看到进出该房屋的所有人员、\n2 所有该等活动，以及确保该房屋安全，\n3 我们必要时获得 U.S. Marshal（美国联邦法警）的协助，\n4 一切均如受托人 Despins 所谈到的那样。\n5 而且，我们不愿意，受托人也不愿意，\n6 仅通过继续维持现有临时限制令，\n7 再延长任何期间。\n8 我还想指出并\n9 强调的是，本院正确地依照\n10 规则安排了本次初步禁令听证会。\n11 而且，我们也依照本院的命令，\n12 向本诉讼的被告送达了临时限制令。\n13 受托人证物1中的送达证明，我未作详细说明，\n14 明确表明，受托人\n15 完全依照 Federal of Bankruptcy Procedure 4(b)，\n16 通过向注册代理人邮寄文件的方式向所有被告送达。\n17 记录中的其他证物明确表明，\n18 受托人向 Taurus Fund 和 Taurus Management 的注册代理人送达了这些文件，\n19 具体依照 Federal of Bankruptcy Procedure 4(b)，\n20 通过向注册代理人邮寄文件的方式。\n21 记录中的其他证物明确表明，\n22 Taurus Fund 和 Taurus Management 的注册代理人\n23 即为我们向其送达这些文件的注册代理人，\n24 因此不存在任何问题。\n25 我理解律师可能尚未被联系。\n\n1 并且直到最近才受聘，但其客户已被送达。这才是关键。若他们想要提出异议——\n\n2 法官：并非仅通过邮寄送达，Bassett 律师。还通过 UPS 隔夜递送。文件显示，于\n\n3 August 1st——\n\n4 BASSETT 先生：正确。\n\n5 法官：——Taurus Fund, LLC（金牛基金有限责任公司）已通过一等邮件及 UPS 隔夜递送向其登记代理人 G International 送达，我认为我们刚刚看到过该名称——\n\n6 BASSETT 先生：正确。\n\n7 法官：——在那份——本应是我认为受托人证物 9 或受托人证物 3 的文件中，这两者之一是州务卿文件。我不记得是哪一份。\n\n8 BASSETT 先生：正确。其中一份是——我认为 9 是 Taurus Management 的州务卿文件。该文件内列明了我们为向 Taurus Management 送达而送达的登记代理人。\n\n9 受托人证物 3 中的文件是 Taurus Fund, LLC 的组织章程。该文件列明了我们送达的另一代理人为该实体的登记代理人。\n\n10 我们还曾尝试——我们还，我相信，通过\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）——August 14, 2023\n\n1 隔夜邮件服务向 Barnett 先生本人送达。我们还作为谨慎起见，尽管并无必要，尝试向其本人送达。我们曾两次尝试这样做。\n\n2 随后，我们于今晨提交了另一份送达证明，再次确认第二次尝试；送达人员表示，他从 Barnett 先生的一名邻居处获得确认，Barnett 先生确实居住在那里，但他未能在家中找到他。\n\n3 但无论如何，只要已邮寄诉讼文书，依据规则 4(b) 的送达即属充分。\n\n4 因此，我认为毫无疑问，被告已及时获知今日听证会，故仅因这些被告决定慢慢聘请律师，并无任何理由延期。\n\n5 因此，基于所有这些理由，尤其是最重要的一点，即我们根本不愿基于延续当前 TRO 而延期本次听证会，我们仍请求我们所寻求的救济，即在不延期的情况下给予比当前有效救济更广泛的救济。\n\n6 法官：我明白。律师，有何回应？\n\n7 CONWAY 先生：我会说，他们称其已获通知的说法并不恰当。依照法典通过邮寄至邮政信箱而完成送达，并不等同于向其发出通知。\n\n8 而且我可以告诉您，若非您在此处理的另一案件中的律师在案卷中看到此事并提醒相关人士，我不会在周五被联系。\n\n9 所以，话虽如此，我不认为这——\n\n10 法官：不过，我认为你对送达的看法不对。\n\n11 CONWAY 先生：我对此并不过分担心。我只是想确保记录清楚，即我们这些从事破产法业务并利用邮件送达选项的人，应当——\n\n12 法官：正如我所指出的，他还通过 UPS 隔夜邮件送达。并且曾尝试向 Barnett 先生送达——抱歉，他叫 Barnett 吗？\n\n13 BASSETT 先生：是的，法官阁下。\n\n14 CONWAY 先生：是。\n\n15 法官：——在他位于 Long Island（长岛）的家中送达，但他不在。\n\n16 CONWAY 先生：是。没有——\n\n17 法官：我认为你不正确。我不认为“送达通知不适当”这一说法正确。这是一项临时限制令。规则——\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）——August 14, 2023 第 167 页\n\n规则规定了应如何完成送达，而送达已按照其在注册成立所在州州务卿办公室指定的送达方式向你的客户完成。因此，我认为你实际上不能这样说。我的意思是，你可以这样说。我不会反驳你所说的其他内容，但我会反驳这一点，因为我不认为这是一项有效的陈述。\n\nCONWAY 先生：我没有就送达提出争辩。\n\n法官：请告诉我，根据规则 4 和规则 65，他们如何没有完成送达？\n\nCONWAY 先生：我并没有这么说，法官阁下。如我表述不清，我深表歉意。我说的恰恰相反。虽然已完成送达，但不能仅因向邮政信箱多次邮寄，就说当事人已获通知。他们声称已向其送达的唯一自然人，实际上并未被送达。\n\n法官：我不——我不同意你的论点，律师。\n\nCONWAY 先生：我本不该使用“送达”一词。我的意思是说——嗯，他们实际上并未将其交到他手中。他们没有——\n\n法官：并无必须亲手送达的要求。\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第 167 页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）——August 14, 2023\n\n1 CONWAY 先生：我并不是说有这种要求。我并未就送达提出争辩。\n\n2 法官：那么，你的论点就是——那我们继续吧。因为就送达而言，你现在所说的任何内容都未能说服我。他们就送达而言完全按照应当做的方式行事。\n\n3 CONWAY 先生：我的评论是有限的。\n\n4 法官：因此，无论你的客户是否决定不打开包裹，都不是他们的问题，而是你客户的问题。如果他们没有打开包裹，而你告诉我，对于他们依照你的客户指定的送达方式完成送达，存在某种关于实际知悉送达的标准，那就向我出示一宗判例表明如此，因为我认为你会在这一点上败诉。\n\n5 CONWAY 先生：是的，我不会这样做，法官阁下。\n\n6 我只想重申：说已完成送达是一回事；说他们实际上已获通知则是另一回事。\n\n7 法官：他们不必实际上获知通知。\n\n8 CONWAY 先生：不应当这样说。\n\n9 法官：你的客户作出了选择。他们\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）——August 14, 2023 第 169 页\n\n要么没有打开包裹，要么把包裹扔掉了，或者不管怎样。无论他们做了什么。你不能——你不能通过说“我没有打开诉状，所以我不知道其内容”来规避临时限制令的送达要求。没有任何判例法支持这一点，律师。完全没有。\n\nCONWAY 先生：此处没有任何人提出该论点，法官阁下。\n\n法官：不，你正在提出该论点，因为你刚才说他们没有获得通知。\n\nCONWAY 先生：不。我说的是，虽然送达有效，但律师推测他们已获通知是不恰当的。\n\nBASSETT 先生：法官阁下？\n\n法官：我不认为那是你所说的话。不过，我认为我们继续吧。\n\nCONWAY 先生：那是我的意思。\n\n法官：我们继续。这无关紧要。送达已适当完成，我对送达方式没有任何异议。而且，那个，你的——Barnett 先生和／或你的客户，无论他们选择做什么，都是他们选择做的；没人能控制他们选择做什么。送达已适当完成。因此，他们不会同意延长\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第 169 页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）——August 14, 2023 第 170 页\n\nTRO，律师。那么，你还有什么想告诉法院的吗？因为我必须在明天下午 2:06 前作出这一裁定，以便在限制令届满之前完成。\n\nCONWAY 先生：您是在邀请我现在进行辩论，还是您希望——\n\n法官：我是在邀请你辩论。你在这里。所以请继续。\n\nCONWAY 先生：好的。\n\nLUFT 先生：法官阁下？\n\n法官：我将听取辩论，律师。\n\nLUFT 先生：我的意思是，我只是请求我们可以在之后对其辩论作出回应？\n\n法官：可以。当然。我会给你——我会给你作出回应的机会。但他在这里，我将听取他的陈述。我不会——我将给予——我会在回去审阅时，对你们所有人所说的话给予其应有的权重。对吧？这是我所做的。按理说这就是我在这里的职责。所以我会这么做。好吗？那么请继续，律师。\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第 170 页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）——August 14, 2023 第 171 页\n\n被告方结案陈词\n\nCONWAY 先生：谢谢您，法官阁下。我的陈词将非常简短，因为我目前对本案了解甚少。我可以告诉您，我听取了这里的证据，而证据表明，我们认为这可能是一栋以可能由债务人控制的资金购买的房屋，因此，您应当基于该证词限制该财产，并将该财产的所有人、登记所有人排除在外。\n\n这是一项强制性禁令，要求略高一些的证明负担。\n\n我们在这里所谈的是，一项可能存在的指控，即有些财产面临被取走的风险，因此他们认为应将该财产的所有人排除在外。好，我们愿意约定，他们可以进去取走并搬走该财产。因为如果这就是唯一的关切，那就可以。\n\n法官：你们将约定他们可以进入该宅邸并取出所有财产？\n\nCONWAY 先生：他们认为属于债务人的财产。\n\n法官：可是，他们认为所有财产都是\n\n案件 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第 171 页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）——August 14, 2023\n\n1 债务人的。那么你们会让他们进去取走吗？\n\n2 CONWAY 先生：如果我们能够陈述我们的案件——\n\n3 法官：那没问题。\n\n4 CONWAY 先生：——我可以向他们展示——我可以向法官阁下展示所有证据，证明哪些财产属于 Taurus Fund，而该等财产属于 Taurus Fund。\n\n5 如果没有证据表明其属于债务人，他们就不能取走。他们不能取走——没有证据表明这里的任何东西，除了——仅仅因为他们不知道 Kwok 先生（郭文贵）如何经营业务，就推测这一定是不法所得，这一定像曾在法官阁下面前讨论过的其他资产一样，以某种方式被 Kwok 先生不当控制。\n\n6 但没有这方面的证据。我们在这里需要证据。\n\n7 我们需要有某些内容来表明，存在立即需要，存在对于改变现状的实际关切。\n\n8 法官阁下，初步禁令旨在维持现状。它并非旨在表示我们要改变现状；而目前的现状是 Taurus Fund 可以使用该财产。目前，如果我们——如果我们维持现状，并作出一项禁令，规定在本诉讼结果出来之前不得对该资产采取任何行动，这完全属于规则 65 的范围。\n\n但这并非他们所请求的。\n\n他们请求法官阁下改变现状，排除所有权人，发布强制性禁令，并且他们希望法官阁下基于什么证据作出此举？\n\n嗯，他以前做过，所以我们认为他在这里也做了。\n\n这并不——这并不足够，法官阁下。\n\n要获得改变现状的强制性禁令，举证责任很高。\n\n我们在这里没有看到这一点。\n\n法庭：好的。谢谢，律师。\n\n有任何回应吗？\n\nLUFT先生：有，法官阁下。我可以上前吗？\n\n法庭：当然。\n\n原告受托人结案陈词\n\nLUFT先生：下午好，法官阁下。我是代表第11章受托人的 Paul Hastings（保罗·黑斯廷斯律师事务所）的 Avi Luft（阿维·卢夫特）。\n\n法庭：下午好。\n\nLUFT先生：我想谈谈我的陈述，但我确实想指出，因为这已经被提及多次，Conway律师一直表示，只要他能出示证据，他就已经看过所有证据；与此同时，他今天又反复告诉我们，他绝对没有时间查看证据或构建案件。\n\n这正是我们今天所说的推测，法官阁下。\n\n如果他有证据，他完全有机会今天到场并提交该证据。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 录入于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 174 页\n\nDespins（德斯潘斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— August 14, 2023\n\n事实上，他还说他没有看过我们的证据，而且证据不存在。事实上，法官阁下，正如我将要说明的，有大量证据支持这一点，也有理由批准这项初步禁令。\n\n正如我们的主张所述，债务人是 Mahwah mansion（马瓦豪宅）的衡平所有权人。Taurus Fund同样由其衡平所有，我们认为其是债务人的另一个自我。\n\n我们将如何证明这一点？证据将表明，该豪宅、其内部物品以及Taurus Fund均为破产财产，而这些资产必须在其被耗散、损坏、清算或转移至另一家未具名空壳公司之前，为债权人予以保全。\n\n因此，我们请求法庭冻结该等资产。我们请求将进入该豪宅的权限限制为仅限有必要在那里的人，即执法人员、受托人及其指定的有必要在那里的人。并且，法官阁下，在必要范围内，我们还将需要美国法警局的协助。因为事实是，债务人目前已召集数百人涌向该豪宅。这是灾难的导火索。\n\n现在，我们已谈及所寻求的救济。我们请求禁止被告，即 Taurus Fund, LLC、Barnett先生和 Taurus Management, LLC——他们现为Taurus Fund的受托人——干扰、设定负担或处分Taurus Fund的资产。\n\nDespins诉Taurus Fund—August 14, 2023\n\n我们还在命令中请求，使该命令适用于所列出的 NFSC（新中国联邦）高级成员。\n\n我不会逐一详述。\n\n我们请求限制进入权限，并以可更换钥匙、密码或采取其他任何措施的方式，协助保障资产安全。\n\n正如受托人所说，任何关心这些资产的人都应支持此项请求。\n\n我们认为，这关乎为债权人保全资产。\n\n但即使我们错了，推定任何其他所有权人也会希望如此。\n\n现在，法律很明确。为了获得初步禁令，我们需要证明我们三项主张中的一项在实体问题上具有胜诉可能性。我们认为，我们将能够就全部三项主张证明这一点。\n\n现在，尽管有人暗示我们必须满足某种排除合理怀疑的刑事证明标准，但这并非标准。我们只须证明胜诉可能性超过50%。\n\n现在，在以下情况下可认定衡平所有权：财产由债务人资金支付购得；债务人表示其对该财产享有权益；或者该财产被用于获取信贷。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 录入于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 175 页\n\n案号 22-50073\n文书 2118\n提交于 08/24/23\n录入于 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins诉Taurus Fund—August 14, 2023\n\n新泽西地区破产法院也曾在发现债务人存在欺诈行为的模式和惯例时认定衡平所有权，尤其是在债务人为购买提供资金并保持实际控制，却将资产置于他人名下的情形。\n\n现在，关于内华达州衡平所有权法——Taurus Fund在该州登记——若债务人对某基金具有积极或实质性控制，或债务人正在使用或获得该基金资产的利益，则根据内华达州法律，这足以确立衡平所有权。\n\n现在，本案证据支持上述全部情形。用于购买和翻修的资金，所有证据均表明来自债务人。\n\n我想回应此前在交叉询问中向受托人提出的说法：视频是否称 G Club（G俱乐部）拥有该财产？没有任何此类陈述。\n\n事实上，我直接询问 Song女士：是否有任何证词——抱歉，是否有任何视频陈述表明除 Kwok先生之外的任何人为该财产所有权人？她作证称，没有，普通话内容中没有任何此类表示。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 录入于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 177 页\n\nDespins诉Taurus Fund—August 14, 2023\n\n即使法庭自行审查，也无法找到。根本不存在。\n\n现在，关于这些资金来自何处？\n\n作为调查的一部分，我们当然可以考察联邦调查局和司法部认为其来源为何：该笔资金来自G Club，经由银行账户转入，用于购买该豪宅。政府已表示，这是 Kwok先生和 Je先生为支付购买款项所实施欺诈计划的一部分。\n\n有人提出主张称，资金是否必须全部来自受害人？\n\n当然，法官阁下，在本案中，我们知道被告的资金来自许多地方。他有来自中国的资金，数十亿美元。他与阿拉伯联合酋长国有交易，我们已经听取证词表明他在那里拥有数十亿美元。\n\n以及政府所筹集的十亿美元资金。\n\n因此，如果无法证明资金来自受害人，就必然不是债务人资金的说法，是一个稻草人论证。\n\n现在，让我们谈谈该住所本身，以及 Conway先生此前所称的——没有人说这是个人住所。\n\n当然，所有证据都表明，这是债务人的个人住所。如果查看证物19，其中谈到老板的卧室和Mei的卧室。人们有卧室，是因为他们在那里居住，法官阁下。如果查看证物14和18，我们可以看到带有债务人照片的个人身份证明。他的纽约学习驾照。他的香港永久性居民身份证。证物17，是他自己的处方。证物13，是缝有其姓名的西装，我们现已知道共有29套西装。没有人会为了过夜一晚带29套西装，法官阁下。当然还有证物15，家庭照片。那是Kwok先生和他的家人。这类物品我家中也有，我相信这正是Kwok先生家中所拥有的同类物品。我们已经看到债务人进行广播。他正在使用该资产。这正是——我们还在哪里见过这种情况？在 Sherry-Netherland（雪莉—荷兰人公寓），即他居住的另一套公寓。我们在证物22和23中看到了这一点。我们还看到了什么以前见过的情况？该实体由与Kwok先生关系密切之人管理并登记在其名下。在这里，此人是其保镖兼司机Barnett先生。他管理Taurus Fund。现在该基金已被注销，他是Taurus Fund的受托人。为什么将其转移给受托人具有重要意义？我将从两方面说明，法官阁下。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 录入于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 178 页\n\n案号 22-50073\n文书 2118\n提交于 08/24/23\n录入于 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins诉Taurus Fund—August 14, 2023\n\n首先，Taurus Fund已停止经营这一事实意味着，根据内华达州法律，它不能再开展业务。因此，说他们是希望使用该资产的人，或者他们仍在合法运营，均不属实。\n\n现在，该基金既已被注销并由受托人控制，保障这些资产尤为重要，因为我相信根据内华达州法律，这些受托人现在有权分配受托人的资产——抱歉，Taurus Fund的资产。显然，在这种事情发生之前，我们必须保障这些资产。\n\n现在，关于债务人使用该房屋一事，我想提及 Henzy先生今天的信函，其中谈到债务人需要持续拥有进入该住所的能力。\n\n那么，如果这不是他原本居住的地方，Kwok先生为什么必须能够进入该住所？\n\n我的意思是，任何关于Kwok先生并未与该财产深度关联的说法，在Henzy先生今天写信称需要特别救济，以便债务人能像——并且他所要求的进入权限与Sherry-Netherland一样时，均不攻自破。该财产是他已承认自己居住的地方。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文书 2118\n提交于 08/24/23\n录入于 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins诉Taurus Fund—August 14, 2023\n\n现在，我们从证物5得知，Zeisler & Zeisler（蔡斯勒与蔡斯勒律师事务所）的同一批律师将Barnett先生描述为Kwok先生的保安人员。\n\n证物6表明，他被列为Kwok先生车辆的驾驶员。\n\n证物7和8表明，他收到 Greenwich Land（格林威治土地公司）的付款，该实体拥有Kwok先生位于康涅狄格州的住所，该住所登记在Greenwich Land名下；以及 Lexington Property（列克星敦地产公司）的付款，该实体是我们正在进行HCHK诉讼所涉实体之一。\n\n这些实体都是受托人正勤勉且迅速地通过各种对抗程序处理的实体，法官阁下完全知悉，它们都有一个共同因素：全都由Kwok先生所有。\n\n这就是我们所要证明的。\n\n坦率地说，认为Barnett先生每天开车接送Kwok先生、从各处替他取箱子，与此完全无关地又恰好有另一份工作，管理一处价值$30 million、据称与Kwok先生无关的豪宅，这种说法根本不可信。\n\n他只是另一个与Kwok先生关系密切、Kwok先生将其列于产权登记之上、随后继续使用该资产的人。\n\n这就是他的惯例。\n\n我们一再看到这种情况。\n\n案号 22-50073 文书 2118 提交于 08/24/23 录入于 08/24/23 12:21:15 第 181 页\n\nDespins诉Taurus Fund—August 14, 2023\n\n判例法谈到一种模式和惯例。Kwok先生使用不登记其姓名的空壳公司，同时保留对资产的控制。\n\n我们在哪里见过这种情况？\n\n嗯，我们在 Lady May（五月女士号）上见过，他\n\n6 使用了他的女儿。\n\n我们在 Taconic Road 的房产中已经见过这种情况：Greenwich Land（格林威治土地）登记在其妻子名下；Golden Spring（黄金之泉）登记在其儿子名下；HCHK 和 Ace Decade（艾斯十年）当然登记在 Wang 女士名下；Barnett 先生只是这一系列中的另一个。\n\n当然，该房产本身也符合债务人所购买财产的模式。它奢华、昂贵，并且充满了旨在炫耀其财富的显眼物品，尽管他向本法院称自己一无所有。\n\n即使在其被捕之后，他仍持续为自身利益使用该房产。法院在审查衡平法上的所有权时所考察的另一个因素是：他是否从中获益？他此前就是如此。甚至在其首次因被捕后，他说，好吧，现在我的追随者，NFSC（新中国联邦），你们可以进来使用它；他正从中获益。他获得了宣传。看来他正通过出售 G Club（G俱乐部）高级会员资格，试图让更多人继续向他提供资金。这对他有利。\n\n我们已经看过视频，即证物 21 和 26，其中\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日\n\n1 他的追随者公开描述，是债务人挑选了该房产、购买了该房产、查看了该房产，并作出了所有选择；这不是受托人的说法。这些是其追随者的说法。这就是正在被传播的内容。\n\n现在，Taurus Fund 还应当指出，法官阁下，在审查另我人格问题时，它显然没有遵守公司形式。它已被缺席认定。它为何被缺席认定？因为它未披露其管理人员是谁，也未提供任何签名。不出所料，他们不想让人们知道什么？谁在背后操控它。\n\n但他们没有遵守公司形式。如果他们连那种最低限度的事情都不愿意做，那么认为可以将这项极具价值的资产托付给他们，我认为实在令人难以置信。\n\n此时，法官阁下，我想谈谈如果我们得不到这一救济，破产财产遭受不可弥补损害的可能性。\n\n简而言之，如果这项临时禁令（PI）不生效，这将导致重大且无法追回的损失。这是一项独特而有价值的资产。该住宅本身被列入国家历史名录。对该房产造成损害——虽然对任何房产造成损害都是重大的，但对一处列入历史名录的房产造成损害\n\n会引发重大问题，即是否有任何方式能够赔偿该损失，或者是否能够修复。\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日\n\n1 更重要的是，我们看到其中充满了有价值的资产，从艺术品，到据称其中有价值超过整栋房屋的古董。法官阁下，我从未进过这栋房子。我认为我方也没有任何人进去过。我无法告诉您它们价值多少。\n\n我所知道的是，里面有价值二十五万美元的镜子和一张桌子。这是一栋有 21 个房间、卧室的住宅。那栋房子需要很多镜子和很多桌子。因此，人们只能开始推测这些资产中有多少钱。\n\n这里发生灾难的第二个因素是什么？我们有身份不明的实体和身份不明的个人，被赋予了对这些正在被耗散的资产的控制权。唯一一个任何人知道与此有关的自然人是 Barnett 先生；法官阁下，我要指出的是，他似乎是 Conway 先生不代理的那一个人。\n\n相反，这是一个现已解散的基金，有两名管理人，现在成为受托人，其中一人是 Barnett 先生，他似乎尚未就此与 Conway 先生交谈；另一人是 Taurus Management（金牛管理公司），同样没有人知道其背后是谁。\n\n认为在这种情形下可以追究某人的责任，或某人可以负责，实在不合情理。\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日 184\n\n有道理。现在，第三件事是什么？坦率地说，我们有数百名身份不明且很可能无赔偿能力的个人进出该房产。他们——他们不是所有人。他们没有维护该房产的既得利益。而且，正如受托人所作证的，坦率地说，我们极为担心，一旦他们充分意识到受托人正在收回该房产，他们的利益可能会转向相反方向，即主要集中于确保受托人无法从中取得任何有价值的物品。资产损失的可能性非常现实，无论是意外还是故意；一处无人看管的房产极易发生损失。你们没有听到对方任何证词表明 Barnett 先生每天都在那里确保一切正常，或者那些所谓的所有人中有任何人、Taurus Fund 的任何人，在现场保护该房产、核查来访者、查验身份证件。那里似乎是毫无管控的状态，而且没有迹象表明任何所谓所有人在那里。建筑项目、无人看管和被遗弃的建筑物之所以会有人看守，是有原因的，因为可能发生各种事情。而这远比\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第184页，共\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日 185\n\n这样的事物更有价值。现在，如果发生损失，坦率地说，追回的可能性极低。没有理由相信作为司机和保安的 Barnett 先生有钱向破产财产作出偿付。没有人知道 Taurus Management 是谁。而且，坦率地说，正如受托人所作证的，我们相信 Kwok 先生是 Taurus Fund 的衡平法上的所有人。因此，向他们追索在场人员造成的任何损害，对我们毫无帮助。正如我所说，由于其现已被缺席认定，以及其现已由受托人管理，根据我对内华达州法律的理解，它可以进行通常在有限责任公司停业时所见的那类资产和财产分配程序，也就是说，他们可以直接分配这些资产。它们必须得到保全。\n\n现在，我想花一点时间谈谈——有人提出问题，好吧，我们认为这从何而来？我们有什么理由怀疑他们？因为我们一再见到这种情况，法官阁下。与 Kwok 先生有关的资产存在一种耗散模式。Greenwich Land 所拥有的 Ferncliff（弗恩克利夫）住宅，在破产申请提交后被出售，尽管他们已被送达 PAX 的文件，告知他们不要\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第185页，共\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日\n\n1 出售任何房产。\n\n正如受托人所作证的，Mei Guo（郭美）在今年夏天、案件进行期间，出售了一架喷气机。当被问及它在哪里时，她只是说，我把它给了一个人。我不知道它在哪里。\n\n据司法部称，G Club 和 HCHK 的员工已将 G Club 资产转移至阿拉伯联合酋长国。正如受托人所作证的，Wang 女士指使他人清空 G Club 邮箱中的数百万美元。\n\n认为资产可能被耗散并非猜测或单纯担忧，而是极为现实的关切。\n\n在谈及利益衡量之前，法官阁下，我确实想回应几项似乎表明 G Club 实际上在这里负责、我们可以安心的评论。\n\n你们所看到视频中的所有日期，以及显示 NFSC 的任何人在该房产上的所有证据，均发生在债务人被起诉之后。\n\n在他被起诉之前，没有迹象表明他希望那些人中的任何人进入其住宅。那是他的住宅。那是他居住的地方。他无意让他们作为客人进入。其被监禁后，他对该房产有了不同的用途。\n\n现在，债务人被\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日 187\n\n监禁后还发生了什么？正如我们所听到的，G Club 的高管全部辞职。法官阁下知道这一点。我们已多次因 G Club 来到这里。他们声称无法在本案中向我们提供证据开示的原因是，他们的首席执行官、总法律顾问以及所有高级管理人员都离开了。因此，律师称必定是 G Club 邀请所有这些人来使用该房产，而与此同时，G Club 的律师却来到本法院称，G Club 中没有任何人有能力作出哪怕是遵从传票这一最简单决定；这种说法根本无法相容。他们不能两面兼得。G Club 已向本法院称，没有任何能够做任何事情的高级领导层。律师不能称那些人在那里，且正是他们在管理该房产并邀请他人进入。\n\n此时，法官阁下，我想谈谈利益衡量。这是一项有价值的房产，可为债权人提供——有助于提供实际回报。它不是任何人目前的住宅。我们不是在将某人赶出其全时居住之处。法官阁下，我们有一个非常清楚的例子，说明\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n第187页，共\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins（德斯平斯）诉 Taurus Fund（金牛基金）— 2023年8月14日\n\n1 情况可以如何不同。\n\nNgok 女士，即 Kwok 先生的妻子，继续居住在其位于 Taconic Road 的住宅中，尽管我们正在对 Greenwich Land 进行程序。我们并不担心 Ngok 女士会毁坏她目前居住的住宅，或从中偷走物品。\n\n这不是那种情况。这里的人不住在那里。没有人知道他们在哪里。而且无法向他们寻求追索。冻结资产并排除 NFSC 及他们，不会对被告造成不利影响。\n\n首先，没有迹象表明 Barnett 先生居住在这栋住宅中。一个身份不明的实体，一种公司形式，并不需要住宅。它是一种公司形式。\n\n现在，NFSC 成员无权进入这栋房子。他们在那里，是因为 Kwok 先生自行决定告诉他们可以进去。可是，Kwok 先生无权这样做。在该房产属于他的资产的范围内，它现在是破产财产的资产。应由 Despins 受托人决定如何使用该住宅。但正是他告诉了他们。你们没有看到任何迹象表明 G Club 发布过公告，或其他人——或 Barnett 先生说过请来这样做。\n\n25 唯一告诉所有这些人前来的人\n\n1 还有郭先生。\n他似乎更难接受这样一个事实：\n2 他不再控制曾属于其破产财产的资产，\n3 但现在已不再如此，而且本就不应由他\n4 来控制。\n5 再次，法官阁下，我要指出，\n6 没有任何迹象表明，在他被监禁之前，他有意让任何人进入\n7 他的房屋。那正是\n8 全部要点。您知道。\n9 尽管我们进行了调查，直到起诉书公布当日，我们\n10 在您面前参加那次初步禁令听证会时，才得知 Mahwah（马瓦）大宅\n11 的存在。\n12 您可以确信，如果郭先生在外面\n13 宣扬他拥有这栋房屋，或者邀请\n14 其所有成员到那里去，我们早在很久以前\n15 就会知道。\n16 相反，这是他的秘密。那是他居住的地方。\n17 那是他存放个人物品的地方。而且他一直隐瞒\n18 此事，尽管他当时正处于破产程序中。\n19 直到现在，他被发现且无法使用它，\n20 他才决定，为将该项资产\n21 保留在债权人之外而采取的下一个手段，是给它重新命名，并称，哦，它是\n22 一处总部。并非如此。您看到的所有文件\n23 都表明，它只能用于住宅用途。\n24 从未有人打算将此处作为总部。它\n25 原本就是其所称的那样：一处住宅，他的住宅。\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第190页，共\n\nDespins（德斯潘斯）诉 Taurus Fund（Taurus基金）— 2023年8月14日\n\n1 最后，法官阁下，关于这些因素，\n2 即此事是否符合公共利益，我认为这一点\n3 很明确。确保债权人能够获得清偿，\n4 并确保可供使用的资产不被耗散，\n5 显然符合公共利益。我们确有理由\n6 担心其可能发生某些情况。我们希望确保\n7 这种情况不会发生。\n8 法官阁下，在结束之前，我只想\n9 谈及一点区别——我们此前取得了一项临时限制令，\n10 其提供了我们所需的大量保护。我们请求\n11 延长临时限制令中的全部内容。\n12 但我还想谈及某些救济措施，\n13 鉴于临时限制令的性质，这些措施在当时或许\n14 并不适当，但我认为对于初步禁令则是适当的。具体而言，\n15 是指示联邦执法局在必要范围内协助\n16 执行初步禁令。\n17 我们非常愿意与律师合作，并取得其\n18 客户的同意，以排除这些人，并同意\n19 他们应当——即我们无需动用联邦执法官。没有人\n20 在非必要情况下希望这样做，法官阁下。\n21 但如果这将成为一个问题，那么要求\n22 受托人的律师或代理人自行尝试完成此事，\n23 就不是一个好办法。我们不希望发生争斗。\n24 我们不希望发生冲突。我们希望此事能够\n25 和平推进。我们相信联邦执法官的在场\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins诉Taurus基金—2023年8月14日\n\n1 是实现这一点的最佳方式。\n2 这也是我们同样希望更换钥匙、\n3 密码锁的原因。我们只是不希望对\n4 谁有权进入此处存在任何疑问。\n5 我们请求使这份拟议命令适用于\n6 NFSC（新中国联邦）的高级成员 Pamela Si（帕梅拉·斯），\n7 其亦称 Nicole（妮可），（听不清）Je，（听不清）\n8 Brother（兄弟）。这些人是我们在视频中看到的人。\n9 就妮可而言，此人是法官阁下\n10 已经在已录入本案记录的初步禁令中\n11 作出认定的人。\n12 我们认为，这些人是与债务人\n13 协同行动并参与其中的人。\n14 我们认为第65条规则对此作出了规定。\n15 总而言之，法官阁下，我们今日所请求的\n16 并非旨在惩罚，而是旨在保全\n17 资产。我们想不出任何理由，为什么任何关心这些资产的人\n18 不希望此事发生。\n19 如法官阁下有任何问题，我很乐意\n20 作答。\n21 法庭：我没有任何问题。谢谢\n22 你。\n23 LUFT先生：谢谢您，法官阁下。\n24 法庭：Conway律师，还有其他事项吗？\n25 CONWAY先生：我只想指出，法官阁下，\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118 提交日期 08/24/23 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第192页，共\n\nDespins诉Taurus基金—2023年8月14日\n\n1 如果您认定签发所请求的禁令\n2 是适当的，则应要求受托人提交一项保证金，\n3 数额为该房产的价值，\n4 我相信我们听取的证词为 \\$26\n5 million，另加其他资产，我相信我们\n6 听取的证词为约 \\$17 million。\n7 法庭：因此，我们目前并不知道那里有何种资产，\n8 Conway律师。\n9 CONWAY先生：我同意这一点，法官阁下。\n10 法庭：好的。第一。\n11 第二，受托人已请求不要求其\n12 提交保证金，因为破产财产中没有资金可供其提交保证金。\n13 所以我不知道您是否知悉\n14 此事，但我只是告知您，已提出这一\n15 请求。\n16 我理解您的请求。我只是告诉您，\n17 已提出这一请求。\n18 而且在此时，我曾——我并未要求\n19 在临时限制令相关事项中\n20 提交保证金。\n21 无论如何，其他人还有其他事项吗？\n22 \n23 （无人答复）\n24 法庭：好的。因此，所有证据均已\n25 提交。我显然必须审查证据，并且\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins诉Taurus基金—2023年8月14日\n\n1 据此作出裁决。\n2 某种形式的裁决将于明日下午2点之前\n3 或明日下午2点左右作出，尽管我们上午也有\n4 庭审。但我们会做——我将根据规则、法律以及\n5 对证据的审查，采取适当的\n6 行动。\n7 因此，这是今日日程上唯一的事项。\n8 法庭今日无需处理其他事项，\n9 故现在休庭。谢谢各位。\n10 全体律师：谢谢。\n11 （程序于下午4:39结束。）\n\nFiore（菲奥雷）速记与誊录服务公司\n\n案号 22-50073\n文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n\nDespins诉Taurus基金—2023年8月14日\n\n2 本人，CHRISTINE FIORE（克里斯汀·菲奥雷），经法院批准的\n3 誊录员、认证电子记录员及\n4 誊录员，特此证明，上述内容为\n5 上述案件程序官方电子录音的\n6 正确誊本。\n\n9 2023年8月24日\n10 Christine Fiore，CERT\n11 誊录员\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23 196 录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15 第195页，共\n\nDespins诉Taurus基金—2023年8月14日 195\n1 索引\n\n3 直接询问 交叉询问 复询\n4 原告受托人的\n5 证人：\n6 Luc Despins（吕克·德斯潘斯） 8/70 110 143\n7 资格审查 34\n8 Luyi Song（宋露易） 55 68\n\n10 原告受托人证物： 标识 接收\n11 1 受托人送达证明 151 151\n12 2 Bergen County（卑尔根县）契据 151 152\n13 3\nNevada Taurus Fund, LLC（内华达Taurus Fund有限责任公司）备案文件 145 147\n14 4\nNevada（内华达州）州务卿网站截图 94 95\n15 5 关于郭氏箱子的电子邮件往来 110\n16 6 AIG Insurance（AIG保险）声明页 98\n17 9 New Mexico Taurus Management, LLC（新墨西哥Taurus Management有限责任公司）备案文件 153 154\n18 10 国家史迹名录 155\n19 11 Christie's Real Estate Group（佳士得房地产集团）房源信息 11 12\n20 12 LexisNexis（律商联讯）截图 96 96\n21 13 郭氏西装标签 85 88\n22 14 郭氏个人身份证明信息 88 89\n23 15 家庭照片 90 94\n24 16 Ferrari（法拉利）文件 90 94\n25 17 郭氏处方药瓶 91 94\n\n案号 22-50073 文件 2118\n提交日期 08/24/23\n录入日期 08/24/23 12:21:15\n196 第196页，共\n\nDespins诉Taurus基金—2023年8月14日 196\n1 证物：（续）\n2 18 郭氏照片 91 94\n3 19 Cedric DuPont Antiques（塞德里克·杜邦古董）发票 91 94\n4 20 Manning法官PAX裁决 155 157\n5 21 标注为9的视频片段 15 70\n6 22 标注为20的视频片段 15 82\n7 23 标注为21的视频片段 15 84\n8 24 标注为22的视频片段 15 74\n9 25 标注为23的视频片段 15 76\n10 26 标注为24的视频片段 15 78\n11 27 标注为25的视频片段 15 80\n12 28 Ostrager法官PAX裁决 157 158\n13 29 Department of Justice（司法部）郭氏起诉书 158 161\n\n15 结案陈词：\n16 由被告方提出 171\n17 由原告方提出 174","key_entities":["Despins","Luc Despins","Je","Kwok","GETTR","Paul Hastings","forfeiture","Guo","HCHK","G Clubs","CIPA","Ho Wan Kwok","William Je","Murray","Himalaya","Miles Guo","Chinese Communist Party"],"ecf_references":[{"doc_number":5,"court":"CTB"},{"doc_number":25,"court":"CTB"}],"word_count":56959,"status":"published","published_at":"2023-08-24 00:00:00","created_at":"2023-08-24","updated_at":"2026-08-23 23:27:20"}