{"id":"court_sdny_435_0","court":"SDNY","case_no":"","doc_number":435,"sub_number":null,"doc_type":"DOC","filed_date":"2024-07-23","title":"SDNY ECF 435","summary_zh":"庭审记录——美国诉Ho Wan Kwok（Miles Guo / Guo Wengui / 郭文贵）案，SDNY 1:23-cr-00118 ECF 435，2024年6月21日。法官Analisa Torres主持庭审，双方讨论证人名单、证人准备材料（26.2材料）交付，以及预计诉讼进展与时间安排等程序问题。","summary_en":"Trial transcript — United States v. Ho Wan Kwok (Miles Guo / Guo Wengui), SDNY 1:23-cr-00118 ECF 435, June 21, 2024. Judge Analisa Torres presides as counsel discuss witness lists, production of witness statement materials (Rule 26.2 disclosures), and anticipated trial schedule and completion date.","body_en":"O6LBGUO1\n1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK\n2 ------------------------------x\nUNITED STATES OF AMERICA,\n3\nv. 23 Cr. 118 (AT)\n4\nMILES GUO,\n5\nDefendant. Trial\n6 ------------------------------x\nNew York, N.Y.\n7 June 21, 2024\n9:00 a.m.\n8\nBefore:\n9\n10 HON. ANALISA TORRES,\n11 District Judge\n-and a Jury-\n12\nAPPEARANCES\n13\nDAMIAN WILLIAMS\n14 United States Attorney for the\nSouthern District of New York\n15 BY: MICAH F. FERGENSON\nRYAN B. FINKEL\n16 JUSTIN HORTON\nJULIANA N. MURRAY\n17 Assistant United States Attorneys\n18 SABRINA P. SHROFF\nAttorney for Defendant\n19\nPRYOR CASHMAN LLP\n20 Attorneys for Defendant\nBY: SIDHARDHA KAMARAJU\n21 MATTHEW BARKAN\n22 ALSTON & BIRD LLP\nAttorneys for Defendant\n23 BY: E. SCOTT SCHIRICK\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 ALSO PRESENT:\nIsabel Loftus, Paralegal Specialist, USAO\n2 Robert Stout, Special Agent, FBI\nRuben Montilla, Defense Paralegal\n3 Tuo Huang, Interpreter (Mandarin)\nShi Feng, Interpreter (Mandarin)\n4 Yu Mark Tang, Interpreter (Mandarin)\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 (Trial resumed; jury not present)\n2 THE COURT: Good morning. Make your appearances,\n3 please.\n4 MS. MURRAY: Juliana Murray, Ryan Finkel, Micah\n5 Fergenson and Justin Horton on behalf of the United States.\n6 MR. KAMARAJU: Good morning, your Honor. Sid Kamaraju\n7 on behalf of Mr. Guo. Mr. Guo is at the counsel's table, and\n8 we're also joined by Jorge Salazar.\n9 THE COURT: Please be seated. Are there any issues\n10 you'd like to discuss before we continue with the testimony?\n11 MR. KAMARAJU: Not from the defense, your Honor.\n12 MR. FINKEL: Not so much an issue, your Honor, but\n13 just an update. With thanks to the Court for allowing us to\n14 sit full days, the government has made real progress this week\n15 in its presentation of evidence. Given our current\n16 projections, we believe that we will rest on Tuesday. Don't\n17 hold me to that. I can't control the cross. We told defense\n18 counsel this on Wednesday, two days ago, and had a good\n19 discussion with the defense about the scope of their case and\n20 just trying to understand how long that would take. The\n21 government doesn't know exactly who the defense's witnesses are\n22 going to be. We have their witness list, but we understand\n23 from discussion that it's going to be a subset of who's on\n24 their witness list, so we're going to talk some more, I assume,\n25 to figure that out.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 What we would request is that the defense provide us\n2 tomorrow, on Saturday, any additional 26.2 material that has\n3 been generated, and on a going forward basis. Just as the\n4 government has provided its 3500 material, the defense should\n5 provide its 26.2 material daily to the extent their exist any.\n6 And that we ask that the defense tell us early Sunday morning\n7 who they anticipate will be their witnesses come either late\n8 Tuesday or early Wednesday so that we could appropriately\n9 prepare and provide the jury an efficient presentation of\n10 evidence.\n11 So the Court also knows on Wednesday we told the\n12 defense who we think will be our witnesses next week. We're\n13 going to confirm that tonight. We might add one or two\n14 witnesses, like a custodial witness, potentially a police\n15 officer from Cambridge, but pretty much who is left is more or\n16 less known to the defense. So that's an update for schedule\n17 just so Your Honor knows.\n18 THE COURT: You bring me good news.\n19 MR. FINKEL: I'm happy to do that.\n20 THE COURT: Mr. Kamaraju, with regard to your\n21 production?\n22 MR. KAMARAJU: That's fine, your Honor. We're happy\n23 to oblige and we'll continue to produce any witness statements\n24 that we have on a rolling basis as we develop them.\n25 THE COURT: All righty. So if you'll have your\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 witness on the stand at 9:29, please.\n2 MR. FINKEL: We will certainly do that. I guess the\n3 thing to add -- defense counsel can speak more to this, just\n4 again for the Court's awareness. It appears based on their\n5 current projections that they think they'll rest their case --\n6 and you'll correct me if I have this wrong -- but I think on\n7 July 2nd or so. That doesn't count if the defendant testifies.\n8 And obviously that's not something that anyone could say is yes\n9 or no. That's Mr. Guo's decision, and he'll make that\n10 decision. But if he does testify, that's obviously going to\n11 add sometime to the trial. And so we'll sort of see I think\n12 how things progress. The government may request additional\n13 full days to the extent it suits the Court and the jury. I'm\n14 not sure what that look means.\n15 THE COURT: That means that I think that all of us\n16 would be motivated to help the trial move along.\n17 MR. FINKEL: Yes, certainly that's the government's\n18 point of view. And I appreciate that's your Honor's point of\n19 view. To the extent the defense can provide anymore\n20 information to the Court about its schedule and what it\n21 presumes will be its presentation, they can certainly do that.\n22 I just want to update the Court on what the government knows.\n23 MR. KAMARAJU: We are, I think, as Mr. Finkel sort of\n24 alluded to, we are going through our witness list, your Honor.\n25 We're trying to streamline it. We've had discussions with the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 government about sort of obviating the need for certain\n2 witnesses, so we are hopeful -- again, not factoring in whether\n3 Mr. Guo testifies, but we're hopeful that at least with respect\n4 to the other witnesses that we would be able to rest prior to\n5 the 4th of July break under a week. The only thing I will\n6 say -- and we can take it as we go along is given that we are\n7 nearing sort of the end of the government's case and the\n8 defense case, we would likely need more time to prepare Mr. Guo\n9 in the possibility of his testifying. And so we would just ask\n10 at those times that we have the schedule that your Honor had\n11 previously proposed to give us some of that time in the\n12 afternoon to meet with him, in the event that he decides to\n13 testify. We can address that I think as we see the schedule\n14 coming, that's just to give your Honor sort of a preview.\n15 THE COURT: So I do want to go over the days that\n16 we're going to have off, and I need to check with my law clerk.\n17 All righty. So we will not be meeting on Friday, June 28th,\n18 nor will we be meeting on Monday, July 1st. We have off July\n19 4th, which is Thursday, and July 5th, which is Friday, so just\n20 wanted you to keep that in mind.\n21 MR. KAMARAJU: Yes. Thank you, your Honor.\n22 THE COURT: All righty. Thank you.\n23 (Recess)\n24 THE COURT: Now that we have the good news, I want to\n25 know if the parties can get their comments to me about the jury\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 charge by Monday?\n2 MR. FINKEL: Good news always comes with bad news.\n3 The government --\n4 MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, the witness is on the stand.\n5 I'm just letting the Court know in case it matters.\n6 THE COURT: I don't think it does with respect to this\n7 issue.\n8 MR. FINKEL: The government can certainly do that. I\n9 guess we ask could we have till Tuesday.\n10 THE COURT: Tuesday. The defense can do it by\n11 Tuesday?\n12 MS. SHROFF: It's only one here out of the team, I\n13 think so, your Honor. But if they disagree with me, I will let\n14 the Court know shortly.\n15 THE COURT: Thank you. All righty. Let's have the\n16 jurors brought in.\n17 THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.\n18 (Continued on next page)\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 (Jury present)\n2 THE COURT: Please be seated. Good morning, Jurors.\n3 We're going to continue with the direct examination of the\n4 witness. Please remember that you're still under oath. You\n5 may inquire.\n6 MS. MURRAY: Thank you, your Honor.\n7 GABRIELLA LUCIANO, resumed.\n8 DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED\n9 BY MS. MURRAY:\n10 Q. Good morning, Special Agent Luciano.\n11 A. Good morning.\n12 Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please publish Government Exhibit\n13 NJ-808 and go to page two, please. Zoom in on the bottom\n14 portion.\n15 Special Agent Luciano, we were looking at this when we\n16 left off yesterday. Can you please read what is listed as\n17 service providers on the left?\n18 A. The service provider was Acass Canada, LTD.\n19 Q. On the right, what is the customer?\n20 A. The customer is Whitecroft Shore Limited.\n21 Q. There's a signature below that and then a printed name,\n22 what is the printed name?\n23 A. Mei Guo.\n24 Q. And the title listed for Mei Guo?\n25 A. Sole director.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 Q. Of what company?\n2 A. Whitecroft Shore limited.\n3 Q. Ms. Loftus, we can zoom out and go to the next page,\n4 please. Let's focus on the top portion through to the second\n5 resolved, please.\n6 What is the title of this document?\n7 A. It's the Consent of Sole Member Without a Meeting.\n8 Q. And the line above that, what does that read?\n9 A. Hudson Diamond Holding, LLC.\n10 Q. Special Agent Luciano, do you know what Hudson Diamond\n11 Holding LLC is?\n12 A. No, ma'am.\n13 Q. Now looking at the second resolved, can you please read the\n14 text there?\n15 A. Resolved that Yanping Yvette Wang will be and hereby is\n16 appointed signing officer for the company and be it further.\n17 Q. Let's zoom out of that, please Ms. Loftus, and go to the\n18 next page, please, and zoom in on the content here.\n19 Looking at election of officers, Special Agent\n20 Luciano, who is listed there and what are the titles?\n21 A. Yanping Yvette Wang, president, Max Krasner, vice\n22 president.\n23 Q. And then at the bottom, what is the date of this document?\n24 A. July 17, 2019.\n25 Q. And what is the name under the signature line?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 A. Mei Guo.\n2 Q. We can take that down. Can we please put up New Jersey or\n3 NJ-209. What type of room is this, Special Agent Luciano?\n4 A. This is a bathroom.\n5 Q. Let's go to NJ-2010. This room, what floor was this on in\n6 the Mahwah residence?\n7 A. This is on one of the upper floors.\n8 Q. Can we please pull up NJ-335 and NJ-336.\n9 What type of room are we looking at here?\n10 A. This room was being used as a closet.\n11 Q. Did you observe this room during your search on March 15,\n12 2023?\n13 A. Yes, ma'am.\n14 Q. What observations did you have about this room?\n15 A. The room was filled with luxury designer clothing. It was\n16 predominantly woman's apparel. There was a dry cleaning\n17 station in the room and an extremely large Hermes tote bag.\n18 Q. We can take that down and put up NJ-338, please.\n19 What type of room are we looking at here?\n20 A. This looked like an office or media room, but a smaller\n21 one.\n22 Q. And on the left side of this photo there's some type of\n23 equipment, what does that appear to be?\n24 A. Camera equipment.\n25 Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could zoom in on the right most picture\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 on the wall, please. We can take that down and put up NJ-259.\n2 MS. SHROFF: I'm sorry, was there a question?\n3 MS. MURRAY: I was just highlighting the picture that\n4 the witness just testified to, your Honor.\n5 THE COURT: All righty. Go ahead.\n6 Q. NJ-259. Special Agent Luciano, what is this?\n7 A. It's an item reading personal shirt, Miles Kwok, ship to\n8 Italy.\n9 Q. Let's put up NJ-229. What is shown in this photo?\n10 A. Personal photographs.\n11 Q. We can take that down.\n12 Special Agent Luciano, are you familiar with the FBI's\n13 search warrant protocol?\n14 A. Yes, ma'am.\n15 Q. Does that protocol include identifying or marking rooms to\n16 be searched?\n17 A. Yes, ma'am.\n18 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that or we looked at one of those\n19 room markings, do you recall that?\n20 A. Yes, ma'am.\n21 Q. What type of document or sketch, if any, does the FBI\n22 prepare in conducting a search warrant?\n23 A. There are multiple documents. There will be a search of\n24 the site. There will be a sketch of the search. So it will be\n25 in this case broken up floor by floor, or in sometimes more\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 specifically wing by wing. There will be a log of sign-in and\n2 sign-out for all personnel. There will be a log of evidence\n3 items collected. Each item will be labeled with the room in\n4 which it was found, who found it, a description of where it\n5 was, and the date and the location of the item. And there will\n6 also be an FD-597 which is paperwork that is left behind with a\n7 generalized receipt so that, should somebody not be home during\n8 the search, they can see generally what was taken, but that's\n9 not a specific list.\n10 Q. What types of logs, if any, are there regarding the\n11 photographs that are taken during the search?\n12 A. There's also a log for all of the photographs taken.\n13 Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please display just for the witness\n14 Government Exhibit NJ-358, and we can flip through the pages.\n15 Special Agent Luciano, what is this?\n16 A. This is the sketch from the search.\n17 Q. And the search of what property on what date?\n18 A. This is March 15, 2023, and the location is 675 Ramapo\n19 Valley Road, Mahwah, New Jersey.\n20 MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers\n21 Government Exhibit NJ-358.\n22 MS. SHROFF: Objection, your Honor. Your Honor,\n23 there's a slew of objection, so.\n24 THE COURT: We'll have a sidebar.\n25 (Continued on next page)\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 (At the sidebar)\n2 MS. SHROFF: Thank you, your Honor. All of these\n3 documents are written hearsay. They do not fall within any\n4 exception, and therefore the defense has an objection to the\n5 introduction of them as evidence. Some of them I only got\n6 notice of this morning, so I was not able to raise it earlier.\n7 THE COURT: Are they all drawings?\n8 MS. SHROFF: No. Some of them -- I'm happy to hand\n9 them to the Court which was handed to me just now.\n10 MS. MURRAY: For the clarity of the record, only one\n11 document was handed to the defense today. The others had been\n12 identified in the list of exhibits that we intended to\n13 introduce through Ms. Luciano. The document that was handed to\n14 the defense this morning is something we produced long ago in\n15 Rule 16 discovery. I'd also just note for the record, the\n16 defense produced a decent quantity of documents today this\n17 morning to us marked as defense exhibits that had never been\n18 produced to us previously.\n19 MS. SHROFF: I wasn't pointing it out that you hadn't\n20 done something correctly. I was just pointing as to why I\n21 hadn't raised it before.\n22 THE COURT: Let's talk about the first item. That\n23 looks like a handmade drawing of the layout of the property.\n24 Is that correct?\n25 MS. MURRAY: That's correct, your Honor. And Special\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 Agent Luciano just testified that she's familiar with the FBI's\n2 procedure for executing search warrants. They include creating\n3 a hand-drawn sketch. They include creating evidence logs of\n4 items collected, which is one of the items that we seek to\n5 introduce through her. And they include photograph logs that\n6 identify where different photographs were taken so that we can\n7 link the photographs that we've shown her to the specific\n8 location of the search property.\n9 THE COURT: So starting with the drawing. Is she\n10 going to be able to say that she recognizes this as an accurate\n11 drawing of the property?\n12 MS. MURRAY: Yes, your Honor.\n13 THE COURT: Let's go to the other documents. These\n14 logs, they come in because?\n15 MS. MURRAY: They come in because they relate to items\n16 that she has testified to that she saw herself on that day. So\n17 between the sketch that she's able to authenticate, and then\n18 the photograph logs that we have, which are three of them for\n19 different floors of the property, it will help her say and\n20 confirm that, yes, that is the room where I identified this\n21 item that we talked about from the sketch. And these are\n22 maintained in the normal course by the FBI for all the premises\n23 searches they conduct.\n24 THE COURT: Is there anything on the log that she had\n25 nothing to do with?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 MS. MURRAY: I guess for clarification there are items\n2 on the log that relate to photographs of rooms that she might\n3 not have gone into, so yes. It's relating to the broader\n4 search, but each of the logs has information relevant to things\n5 that she saw that day, things that she tagged as evidence,\n6 things that she did in the course of her work that day as a\n7 searcher.\n8 THE COURT: It's those items that you're looking to\n9 highlight for this witness?\n10 MS. MURRAY: Correct.\n11 THE COURT: And so if there are items that don't\n12 relate to the witness, you wouldn't be concerned?\n13 MS. MURRAY: No, your Honor, because all of the logs\n14 just maintain information about items that were seized pursuant\n15 to the search warrant as through instrumentalities or evidence\n16 of the subject offenses.\n17 THE COURT: She will be able to authenticate them as\n18 business records?\n19 MS. MURRAY: These documents, yes. As I just\n20 inquired, and I can ask additional questions, but she said that\n21 that is the process of maintaining these different documents\n22 for all FBI searches.\n23 THE COURT: Mr. Kamaraju.\n24 MR. KAMARAJU: I don't think the issue is an\n25 authentication issue. I think it's a hearsay issue. And the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 hearsay exception that would typically apply to FBI records is\n2 803(a), a record or statement of a public office, if it sets\n3 out the officer's activities, a matter observed while under a\n4 legal duty to report, but not including in a criminal case, a\n5 matter observed by law enforcement personnel. FBI records are\n6 not business records. If they were, your Honor, then the\n7 defense would be able to introduce 302s, for example. Those\n8 are not -- and the fact that this is what the FBI does in\n9 connection with other searches, doesn't mean that it's\n10 regularly conducted activity to search Mahwah, for example. So\n11 I don't think the government can rely on the business rule\n12 exception when there's a much more specific hearsay exception\n13 that's specific with regard to what business records are. I've\n14 actually never seen a case, and maybe the government has\n15 authority for it, where an FBI record is admitted as a business\n16 record.\n17 THE COURT: What I don't understand is what would be\n18 the proper foundation?\n19 MR. KAMARAJU: Well, I think at least for the logs, I\n20 think the logs contain information that says, photographs 17 is\n21 a picture of this, right. And it's found in \"X\" place. So if\n22 they want to put up a photograph, that is what it is. But to\n23 put in a log to say, this is a photograph of an item. That\n24 item was found there. That's hearsay.\n25 THE COURT: What about the items that she has\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 specifically identified, where she has seen the photograph and\n2 she said this is a photograph of X and that is simply written\n3 out on the log?\n4 MR. KAMARAJU: Well, then, I make two points. One is\n5 I'm not sure why it's relevant that it's on the log; but two, I\n6 would say that the log is cumulative of her testimony saying\n7 that, I've seen the photograph. It is what it is.\n8 THE COURT: So suppose I were to reject the cumulative\n9 argument?\n10 MR. KAMARAJU: Well, it's worth the defense.\n11 THE COURT: I assume the items that she identified on\n12 the property and in the courtroom would not be considered\n13 hearsay?\n14 MR. KAMARAJU: I believe they still would, your Honor.\n15 It's still an out-of-court statement being admitted for the\n16 truth.\n17 THE COURT: In other words, it's merely a record that\n18 she created.\n19 MR. KAMARAJU: All FBI reports are merely a record,\n20 right. They're a record of a matter observed by an FBI agent,\n21 just like a 302, just like an evidence log. They're all\n22 records of matters observed by law enforcement personnel, which\n23 are specifically under the hearsay rule. Whether she observed,\n24 whether she knows it personally or not, because the objection\n25 is not authentication or lack of personal knowledge. It is\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 specifically hearsay, and this witness's knowledge has nothing\n2 to do with the hearsay exception.\n3 THE COURT: I have to say I'm not familiar with this\n4 rule. Are you?\n5 MS. MURRAY: I am not deeply familiar with the rule,\n6 your Honor.\n7 MR. KAMARAJU: And I have it here.\n8 MS. SHROFF: I do want to cite United States v.\n9 Schulte. In that case, I tried to introduce the FBI 302.\n10 Mr. Kamaraju was the assistant United States attorney versing\n11 me and I lost. And those 302s were deemed inadmissible by the\n12 Honorable Judge Crotty. Because, one, the FBI is not a\n13 business; and two, that exception applied which is why\n14 Mr. Kamaraju knows it so well.\n15 MR. FINKEL: In the alternative, your Honor,\n16 Ms. Murray could ask the agent as to each document, where did\n17 you find this. She might say she remembers or she doesn't, and\n18 we can use the photograph log to refresh her recollection. It\n19 might refresh her recollection. We can do that for each one.\n20 And then if there are additional items, assuming the Court\n21 sustains the objection on this, if there are additional items,\n22 then we may need to call additional FBI witnesses who collected\n23 those particular items to state as to where those items were\n24 found. That would be the alternative to admitting the record\n25 if your Honor sustains the objection.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 In some sense, there's an efficiency in this, and that\n2 would be up to the defense if they want to pursue the hearsay\n3 objection on additional items and your Honor sustains the\n4 objection on additional to show where they were found that she\n5 didn't personally find. We'd have to get those agents to come\n6 in and explain where they found these items.\n7 THE COURT: Is that a threat?\n8 MR. FINKEL: It's not a threat. Of course not. I'm\n9 just telling your Honor the government's thinking, and also the\n10 defense so they understand.\n11 THE COURT: Are you saying that -- I have to sustain\n12 the objection because now I've been educated, but you'll think\n13 about whether it's necessary to bring any additional witnesses.\n14 MR. FINKEL: We certainly will. And just so your\n15 Honor knows as we told your Honor this morning, we've\n16 streamlined our case quite a bit, so we've definitely been\n17 thinking about these things.\n18 THE COURT: Okay.\n19 (Continued on next page)\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 (In open court; jury present)\n2 THE COURT: Sustained.\n3 BY MS. MURRAY:\n4 Q. Ms. Loftus, if we could please display for the witness\n5 Government Exhibit 358, NJ-358. Actually, we can take that\n6 down.\n7 Let's put up for the jury as well what's in evidence\n8 as Exhibits NJ-40, 41 and 42. We can do them one at a time.\n9 Let's do 40 first, please. If we could zoom in on the top\n10 portion, please.\n11 Special Agent Luciano, what's the date on the top\n12 right of this document?\n13 A. 2/11/2022.\n14 Q. And what is the name in all caps at the top of this\n15 document?\n16 A. Cedric DuPont Antiques.\n17 Q. Looking on the left side, can you read the name of the\n18 company and the address under sold to?\n19 A. Sold to Taurus Fund LLC, Sky Pointe Drive, Suite 129-1071.\n20 Las Vegas, Nevada 89141.\n21 Q. And then looking at the line under ship to, can you read\n22 the same information for ship to, please?\n23 A. Ship to Taurus Fund LLC, 675 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah,\n24 New Jersey 07430.\n25 Q. We can take out the zoom, Ms. Loftus. Let's now go to\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 NJ-41, please. If we could zoom in on the top half of this.\n2 Special Agent Luciano, do you see handwriting on the\n3 first two items here?\n4 A. Yes, ma'am.\n5 Q. Can you read for the first item what that handwriting\n6 indicates?\n7 A. Flower painting location madame's bed south door right.\n8 Q. And what is the price listed for that item and then the\n9 amount?\n10 A. The price was $26,500 dollars. The amount was $19,610.\n11 Q. And item two, the same question with respect to the\n12 handwriting, can you please read that?\n13 A. 1/F hallway madame's living north close to clock door or\n14 closet door.\n15 Q. And what is the price listed and the amount listed for that\n16 item?\n17 A. The price is $43,500 and the amount is $32,190.\n18 Q. You can zoom out of that, please, Ms. Loftus, and let's go\n19 now and zoom in on the remaining line items here.\n20 Looking at item 8588, Special Agent Luciano, what is\n21 the description of that item?\n22 A. A sensational and very rare pair of palatially scaled\n23 Italian mid-19 Century Baroque st double-framed giltwood\n24 mirrors.\n25 Q. What is the price and the amount listed for that item?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 A. The price was $165,000, and the amount was $12,100.\n2 Q. Looking now at the next item CDM, what is the handwriting\n3 listed for that item?\n4 A. Mei's bedroom, bed left top to ceiling.\n5 Q. Ms. Loftus, if we can take that down and put up NJ-42,\n6 please. If we could zoom in on the very top portion to the\n7 first item here.\n8 Special Agent Luciano, do you see writing up at the\n9 top portion of this document?\n10 A. Yes, ma'am.\n11 Q. What does that say?\n12 A. It looks like it reads, Personal entrance.\n13 Q. We can take that down. Ms. Loftus, can we show for the\n14 witness only Exhibit NJ-358 and scroll through the pages.\n15 Special Agent Luciano, do you recognize what is\n16 depicted in NJ-358?\n17 A. Yes, ma'am.\n18 Q. What do you recognize it to be?\n19 A. It's the Mahwah residence.\n20 Q. Is NJ-358 a fair and accurate representation of the Mahwah\n21 residence as you observed it on March 15, 2023?\n22 A. Yes, ma'am.\n23 MS. MURRAY: Your Honor, the government offers NJ-358.\n24 MS. SHROFF: No objection.\n25 THE COURT: It is admitted.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 (Government's Exhibit NJ-358 received in evidence)\n2 BY MS. MURRAY:\n3 Q. Can you explain to the jury, please, Special Agent Luciano,\n4 what we're looking at on page one here?\n5 A. This is an overview of the property done by sketch.\n6 Q. Let's go to the next page, please.\n7 What are we looking at here on page two?\n8 A. This is the basement, so the lower level of the residence\n9 in a sketch.\n10 Q. Can you please identify on this sketch for the jury where\n11 the pool area that we have looked at the photos of yesterday is\n12 located?\n13 A. There's a piece that says hot tub.\n14 Q. Is that at the top middle of this sketch?\n15 A. Yes, ma'am.\n16 Q. Let's go to the next page, please.\n17 What is this showing us, Special Agent Luciano?\n18 A. This is the main floor of the residence.\n19 Q. And the next page, please. Which floor is this?\n20 A. This is the second floor of the residence.\n21 Q. Can you identify on this sketch where the safe that we\n22 looked at photos of yesterday was located?\n23 A. Yes, ma'am. It's immediately to the left of the opening to\n24 the first floor section in the room that says closet labeled\n25 YY.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 Q. And the room just below that labeled VV, which room is\n2 that?\n3 A. That's the wide open room being used as a closet to store\n4 linens. It was the second in the series that we saw through\n5 the doorframes yesterday.\n6 Q. Ms. Loftus, can we pull up alongside, please, Government\n7 Exhibit NJ-204. I think it's the left page on the left.\n8 So, Special Agent Luciano, can you explain for the\n9 jury how the photo we're looking at on the right relates to the\n10 sketch we're looking at on the left of the second floor?\n11 A. Sure. This is room VV. It's just rotated.\n12 Q. Where in the photo on the right would room YY where the\n13 safe was located be?\n14 A. It's in the white closed door on the right-hand side of the\n15 wall bearing the open clothing rack.\n16 Q. And, Ms. Loftus, let's keep 358 up on the left, please, and\n17 on the right can we please put up Exhibit NJ-201.\n18 Special Agent Luciano, I want to look again at NJ-201.\n19 It's one of the rooms we talked about yesterday, and just go to\n20 the next page on the left side, please.\n21 Where on the sketch on the left here is the room\n22 that's depicted in NJ-201?\n23 A. If we could zoom in a little bit so I could see the\n24 numbers, but it's on the left-hand side.\n25 Q. Ms. Loftus, we can actually zoom out and zoom in on the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 left column of that sketch.\n2 A. The bedroom is room SS.\n3 Q. And the dresser we're looking at in the photo on NJ-201,\n4 where, if anywhere, is that depicted in the sketch in SS on the\n5 left?\n6 A. It's the long rectangular object on the right-hand side of\n7 room SS.\n8 Q. And, Ms. Loftus, if we could now pull up on the right. We\n9 can keep that on the left. If we could pull up on the right\n10 NJ-250.\n11 Special Agent Luciano, where in the sketch on the left\n12 was this item depicted in NJ-250 located?\n13 A. It was located in room SS in the long rectangular item on\n14 the sketch.\n15 Q. We can take those down. If we could please put up,\n16 Ms. Loftus, what's in evidence as Exhibit NJ-607.\n17 Special Agent Luciano, if we could focus on the top\n18 portion third floor. Actually, the top above that, what is the\n19 word listed above third floor?\n20 A. Crocker.\n21 Q. And what, if anything, do you understand that to refer to?\n22 A. I couldn't say.\n23 Q. So looking down third floor, if you could read just the\n24 descriptions of the room, what appears to be description of\n25 rooms running down the page?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 A. Mei's closet, Mei's closet ceiling, Mei's bedroom ceiling,\n2 Mei's bedroom cove, Mei's bath cove, clubroom bar, clubroom\n3 picture, Wayne's bedroom, bathroom vanity, Wayne's office,\n4 bathroom; Wayne's bedroom sconces, Wayne's living sconces.\n5 Q. Do you know who Wayne is?\n6 A. No, ma'am.\n7 Q. Do you know who Mei is?\n8 A. No, ma'am.\n9 Q. Looking at the second floor, similarly if you could read\n10 down just the names of the rooms?\n11 A. Boss' main bath shower, Boss' main bath toilet, boss' main\n12 bath center chandelier, boss' main bath, boss' main bath, boss'\n13 sconce lights hall entry, boss' sconce lights living entry,\n14 boss' pico bath entry, madame's bath number two ceiling light,\n15 madame's bath number two shower light, madame's bath number two\n16 vanity light.\n17 Q. We can zoom out of that and go to the next page please,\n18 Ms. Loftus.\n19 Special Agent Luciano, do you know who boss is?\n20 A. No, ma'am.\n21 Q. Do you know who madame refers to?\n22 A. No, ma'am.\n23 Q. Let's take this down and go to Exhibit NJ-608, please.\n24 Looking here if you could just read the words that are\n25 bold and underline on this exhibit?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 A. Madame main hall, boss closet, boss grand bath, boss bed,\n2 boss sitting.\n3 Q. Let's stay up on the first page, please, Ms. Loftus.\n4 And what floor based on this document are those rooms\n5 associated with?\n6 A. The second floor.\n7 Q. Let's scroll down. The bottom of this page, what does it\n8 say?\n9 A. Son's hall, son's closet, son's bath, hall club room, Mei's\n10 bed, Mei's living, Mei's closet.\n11 Q. Do you know who son refers to?\n12 A. No, ma'am.\n13 Q. Looking at the top of the screen right here the bottom of\n14 the first page, what floor are those rooms associated with?\n15 A. The third floor.\n16 Q. Ms. Loftus, let's take that down and pull up NJ-155 and\n17 NJ-156, please.\n18 Looking first on the left, Special Agent Luciano, what\n19 type of equipment appears in the center of this photo?\n20 A. Production equipment.\n21 Q. And looking in the photo of the right, is that a different\n22 view of the same room.\n23 A. Yes, ma'am.\n24 Q. Ms. Loftus, let's take it down and just put up 156, please,\n25 and zoom in on the bookcase against the wall.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 Special Agent Luciano, do you see the item that's in\n2 the center of that bookcase on the shelf?\n3 A. I do.\n4 Q. What does that appear to be?\n5 A. A statue.\n6 Q. Ms. Loftus, let's take that down, if we could pull up\n7 Government Exhibit GXZ-9 at page 189, and zoom in on the top\n8 portion of this.\n9 Special Agent Luciano, what's the date in the column\n10 on the left here?\n11 A. 2/8/2023.\n12 Q. And looking at the photo on the top of this exhibit what,\n13 if anything, do you recognize from that photo based on your\n14 search of Mahwah on March 15, 2023?\n15 A. The bookcase.\n16 Q. Is that the same bookcase we just looked at in Government\n17 Exhibit NJ-156?\n18 A. It appears to be.\n19 Q. Do you see an item that appears above the individual's\n20 heard you can see a portion of it in this photo in Z-9 at page\n21 189?\n22 A. Yes, ma'am.\n23 Q. How, if at all, does that look familiar to you based on\n24 your search of Mahwah on March 15, 2023?\n25 A. It looks to be the same statue.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 Q. Ms. Loftus, we can take that down and put up Government\n2 Exhibit C-461, please. Actually, let's take that down and\n3 let's go back to Government Exhibit Z-9 at page 197. If we\n4 could zoom in on the bottom entry here.\n5 Special Agent Luciano, what is the date in the left\n6 column here?\n7 A. The date is 2/19/2023.\n8 (Continued on next page)\n9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct\n1 BY MS. MURRAY:\n2 Q. And looking in the box on the right with the photo, what is\n3 the text below that, the black text that's written there?\n4 A. \"On February 19, 2023, Miles Guo revealed this breaking\n5 news in his live broadcast.\"\n6 Q. Looking at the photo above that, what, if anything, do you\n7 recognize in that photo from your search of Mahwah on March 15,\n8 2023?\n9 A. The bookcase.\n10 MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, if we could now go to\n11 Government Exhibit W5-V.\n12 If we could play from the 1:50 mark to the 2:05 mark,\n13 please.\n14 Q. Special Agent Luciano——\n15 MS. MURRAY: Before we start that, if we could go\n16 back——sorry, Ms. Loftus——to the beginning.\n17 Q. Looking at this image, what, if anything, do you recognize\n18 in this image from your search of Mahwah on March 15, 2023?\n19 A. The bookcase and the statue.\n20 Q. And where is the statue in this image?\n21 A. On the shelf immediately to the left of Mr. Guo's head.\n22 MS. MURRAY: All right. So let's start at 1:50 and\n23 play to 2:05, please.\n24 (Video played)\n25 MS. MURRAY: If we could play just another few seconds\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct\n1 there, please.\n2 (Video continued)\n3 BY MS. MURRAY:\n4 Q. Special Agent Luciano, have you ever seen this video\n5 before?\n6 A. No, ma'am.\n7 Q. There is a kind of an oval on the top left of the screen.\n8 Do you see that?\n9 A. Yes, ma'am.\n10 Q. What words are written there?\n11 A. New Federal State of China.\n12 Q. And below that?\n13 A. CCP does not equal Chinese.\n14 Q. Do you know what the New Federal State of China is?\n15 A. No, ma'am.\n16 MS. MURRAY: And Ms. Loftus, let's take that down and\n17 go to Government Exhibit NJ256.\n18 I want to zoom in on the bottom entry, please.\n19 If we could actually zoom out so we can see the full\n20 document and then zoom in there.\n21 Q. Looking at the bottom entry, Special Agent Luciano, what is\n22 the description of that item?\n23 A. Thank you. Crocodile hoodie leather jacket-50.\n24 Q. And the price that's listed for that item?\n25 A. $129,600.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct\n1 MS. MURRAY: All right. Ms. Loftus, let's now go to\n2 Government Exhibit Z9 at page 206.\n3 Q. Looking at the bottom entry here, Special Agent Luciano,\n4 what is the date in the leftmost column?\n5 A. 3/8/2023.\n6 Q. And looking in the right, there is a bracket and then some\n7 text. Can you please read both of those.\n8 A. \"March 7th, 2023. Full text of Miles Guo's GETTR video.\"\n9 MS. MURRAY: Let's scroll down, please, Ms. Loftus.\n10 Actually, just a moment. Can we take that down and go\n11 to——may I have a moment, your Honor?\n12 THE COURT: Yes.\n13 MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, can we go to Government\n14 Exhibit W183, please. And that's what's cited on the right\n15 side of that entry we just looked at.\n16 BY MS. MURRAY:\n17 Q. Special Agent Luciano, do you see the heading on this\n18 document?\n19 A. Yes, ma'am.\n20 Q. Is that the same heading you just read from Government\n21 Exhibit Z9 at page 206?\n22 A. Yes, ma'am.\n23 MS. MURRAY: If we could scroll down a bit to the\n24 photo please, Ms. Loftus. And pause there.\n25 Q. Do you see the clothing that is depicted in this photograph\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct\n1 on the individual?\n2 A. Yes, ma'am.\n3 MS. MURRAY: If we could zoom in on that, Ms. Loftus.\n4 Q. What does that appear to be?\n5 A. It's a crocodile black jacket bearing the label G Fashion.\n6 Q. And what type of jacket, if any?\n7 A. Crocodile, or leather.\n8 Q. Is there any kind of a collar or any other identifying\n9 feature of the jacket?\n10 A. It's a hoodie.\n11 MS. MURRAY: All right. We can zoom back to normal\n12 and scroll down a bit, please.\n13 Q. And actually, what letters are there in yellow on the left\n14 side of this?\n15 A. NFSC.\n16 Q. Do you know what NFSC is?\n17 A. Below it, it says the New Federal State of China.\n18 MS. MURRAY: All right. Ms. Loftus, let's scroll\n19 down, please.\n20 Keep going a bit.\n21 All right. Pause there, please.\n22 Q. In the middle of this page, Special Agent Luciano, starting\n23 with, \"Take a look,\" can you please read that and the next two\n24 paragraphs.\n25 A. \"Take a look at this leather hoodie I am wearing. Look at\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct\n1 the texture of the leather; it's as soft as flowing water. One\n2 of my friends in France and another family in Japan have the\n3 same style as this one; it looks terrific on everybody.\n4 \"You will look dashing and charming if you wear this\n5 style of clothes correctly, right? You can also put on the\n6 hood, making you look more dashing . . . right? What do you\n7 think? Does it look good?\n8 \"Wearing this leather hoodie, whether walking with\n9 your mate on the beach or boarding a yacht, how romantic it\n10 will be, right? It also looks very cute, isn't it?\"\n11 Q. Now, Special Agent Luciano, in the text that you just read,\n12 did you see any references to the CCP?\n13 A. No, ma'am.\n14 MS. MURRAY: We can take that down.\n15 And let's put up Government Exhibit NJ807, please.\n16 Zoom in on the top portion of this for the moment,\n17 please, Ms. Loftus.\n18 Q. What is the title of this document?\n19 A. Residential Lease Agreement.\n20 Q. Who is listed on this as the landlord?\n21 A. Taurus Fund SP.\n22 Q. And in what country is the address for Taurus Fund SP?\n23 A. Grand Cayman Islands.\n24 Q. Who is listed as the tenant?\n25 MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, I have an objection. This is\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct\n1 not a summary witness. This is a witness who is testifying\n2 about a specific topic. She's not a summary witness.\n3 THE COURT: Is this a document that's already in\n4 evidence?\n5 MS. MURRAY: Yes, your Honor, and it was seized during\n6 the search that Special Agent Luciano conducted.\n7 THE COURT: All righty. You may continue.\n8 BY MS. MURRAY:\n9 Q. Could you read the Tenant line, please.\n10 A. Naok Hing Chi.\n11 Q. And the address?\n12 A. 373 Taconic Road, Greenwich, Connecticut, 06831.\n13 MS. MURRAY: Let's zoom out of that, please,\n14 Ms. Loftus.\n15 And let's focus on Property, Term, and Rent, the first\n16 three items.\n17 Q. What property does this residential lease agreement relate\n18 to?\n19 A. 675 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah, New Jersey 07430.\n20 Q. And the line above that, if you could just read the first\n21 line, ending with the parenthetical.\n22 A. \"The Tenant agrees to lease from the Landlord and the\n23 Landlord agrees to lease to the tenant.\"\n24 Q. And how is it described in the parenthetical there?\n25 A. The single-family home.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct\n1 Q. And in item 2, there's a lease term. Looking at the first\n2 sentence, what is the lease term of this residential lease\n3 agreement?\n4 A. The term of this lease is for two years starting on June 1,\n5 2022, and ending on May 31, 2024.\n6 Q. And item 3 here, the rent, what is the rent for that\n7 two-year term of lease?\n8 A. The rent for the term of this lease is $2,400,000, to be\n9 paid as follows: $100,000 per month, which is due on the first\n10 day of each month.\n11 Q. And to what entity or individual is the rent payable?\n12 A. Taurus Fund SP.\n13 MS. MURRAY: Zoom out of that and go to the next page,\n14 please.\n15 Q. At the bottom of this page, Special Agent Luciano, do you\n16 see what appear to be initials?\n17 A. Yes, ma'am.\n18 Q. And what party to this contract initialed this document?\n19 A. The tenant.\n20 MS. MURRAY: Zoom out of that. Go to the next page,\n21 please.\n22 Pause there for a moment.\n23 If we could focus on items 31 and 32 here.\n24 Q. For item 31, what is the title of that portion of this\n25 residential lease agreement?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Direct\n1 A. LEAD-BASED PAINT DOCUMENT ACKNOWLEDGMENT.\n2 Q. And item 32, what is the title of that portion of this\n3 residential lease agreement?\n4 A. WINDOW GUARD NOTIFICATION.\n5 Q. Can you just read the first sentence of item 32.\n6 A. \"THE OWNER (LANDLORD) IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO PROVIDE,\n7 INSTALL, AND MAINTAIN WINDOW GUARDS IN THE APARTMENT IF A CHILD\n8 OR CHILDREN 10 YEARS OF AGE OR YOUNGER IS, OR WILL BE, LIVING\n9 IN THE APARTMENT OR IS, OR WILL BE, REGULARLY PRESENT THERE FOR\n10 A SUBSTANTIAL PERIOD OF TIME IF THE TENANT GIVES THE OWNER\n11 (LANDLORD) A WRITTEN REQUEST THAT THE WINDOW GUARDS BE\n12 INSTALLED.\"\n13 MS. MURRAY: We can zoom out of that.\n14 Let's go to the next page, please.\n15 And stop there. If we could focus here on the\n16 handwriting.\n17 Q. What is the date on the left side here?\n18 A. 05/29/2022.\n19 Q. And there's a signature on the right. What is the printed\n20 name below the signature on Tenant?\n21 A. Naok Hing Chi.\n22 MS. MURRAY: Zoom out, Ms. Loftus.\n23 Go down to the next page.\n24 And the next page.\n25 The next page.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 Q. And again, Special Agent Luciano, on the bottom of these\n2 pages, there is a space for initials. What party to the\n3 agreement initialed all of these pages?\n4 A. The tenant.\n5 MS. MURRAY: We can take that down.\n6 May I have a moment, please, your Honor?\n7 THE COURT: Yes.\n8 Q. Special Agent Luciano, were you involved in the\n9 investigation into Miles Guo beyond executing the search\n10 warrant on March 15, 2023?\n11 A. No, ma'am.\n12 Q. The photographs and documents that we've looked at during\n13 your testimony, are those all of the photographs and documents\n14 that were taken on March 15, 2023?\n15 A. No, ma'am.\n16 Q. Did you select the photos and documents that we discussed\n17 during your testimony?\n18 A. No, ma'am.\n19 Q. Who did?\n20 A. The government.\n21 MS. MURRAY: Nothing further, your Honor. Thank you.\n22 THE COURT: Cross-examination.\n23 CROSS EXAMINATION\n24 BY MS. SHROFF:\n25 Q. Agent Luciano, you've worked for the FBI since 2017; is\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 that correct?\n2 A. No.\n3 Q. So what year did you start with them?\n4 A. 2019.\n5 Q. 2019. And who did you work for before 2019?\n6 A. I worked for Pearson.\n7 Q. What's Pearson?\n8 A. An education publishing company.\n9 Q. And since 2019 until now, you've worked for the same squad?\n10 A. No, ma'am.\n11 Q. Which squads did you work for before this squad?\n12 A. I worked for HIDTA squad, which is a drug trafficking\n13 squad; I worked for white collar crime squad; and I worked on a\n14 surveillance squad.\n15 Q. Okay. And as part of your duties for the FBI, you took\n16 photographs of this place called Crocker Mansion, correct?\n17 A. No, ma'am.\n18 Q. Okay. You took none of the photographs that you viewed\n19 today, right?\n20 A. No, ma'am.\n21 Q. No, you didn't take them? I just want to make sure I\n22 understand your answer.\n23 A. I did not take any of the photographs.\n24 MS. SHROFF: I thought I heard a dog. Sorry.\n25 THE COURT: So is there an infant or a small animal\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 here?\n2 So the courtroom is not a place for pets.\n3 Oh, it was a sneeze. Well, then bless you.\n4 All righty. Go ahead.\n5 BY MS. SHROFF:\n6 Q. And by the way, do you know how many special agents there\n7 are in the FBI?\n8 A. I do not.\n9 Q. Hundred thousand?\n10 A. I couldn't say.\n11 Q. Okay. And you were telling me that you took none of the\n12 photographs that we saw in the courtroom yesterday and today,\n13 correct?\n14 MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.\n15 THE COURT: Sustained.\n16 MS. SHROFF: I was just trying to get back to base,\n17 your Honor; that's all.\n18 THE COURT: All right. So don't——\n19 MS. SHROFF: I'll move on.\n20 BY MS. SHROFF:\n21 Q. And you met with Ms. Murray to prepare for your testimony\n22 here, correct?\n23 A. Yes, ma'am.\n24 Q. And you reviewed these photographs with her, correct?\n25 A. Yes, ma'am.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 Q. And when you reviewed them with her, did you juxtapose them\n2 just like they were juxtaposed at trial, or was that done just\n3 in court for you for the first time?\n4 A. Could you repeat the question. I don't understand.\n5 Q. Sure. Of course. You know at times Ms. Murray put two\n6 photographs side by side and asked you questions? Do you\n7 remember that?\n8 A. Yes, ma'am.\n9 Q. So did she do that during the prep or was it the first time\n10 for you when she did it in court?\n11 A. We did not review that at prep.\n12 Q. Okay. So when she put the two photographs side by side,\n13 that was the first time you'd ever seen those?\n14 MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.\n15 THE COURT: Sustained. So don't repeat the questions.\n16 Q. Let me go back to the last document, 807, okay?\n17 You testified about this document a minute ago, right?\n18 A. Yes, ma'am.\n19 Q. Okay. And this is a lease agreement, right?\n20 A. That's what it says, yes, ma'am.\n21 Q. And it tells you who the landlord is right on top, correct?\n22 A. Yes, ma'am.\n23 Q. Okay. And the landlord is Taurus Fund SP, right?\n24 A. Yes, ma'am.\n25 Q. And then there's a tenant, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 A. Yes, ma'am.\n2 Q. And the tenant is Naok Hina Chi, correct?\n3 A. Yes, ma'am.\n4 Q. And it seems——you tell me, you're the FBI agent——seems like\n5 a standard residential lease agreement, correct?\n6 A. I couldn't say.\n7 Q. Okay. Well, it has paragraphs there, correct, Property,\n8 Term, Rent, Initial Deposit, right?\n9 A. Yes, ma'am.\n10 Q. And the tenant has signed it on the left side, correct?\n11 A. Yes, ma'am.\n12 MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if we could just go to the\n13 last page.\n14 And just go one page back.\n15 Okay. There we go.\n16 Q. And you see there are just——does it look like a standard\n17 lease agreement to you?\n18 MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.\n19 THE COURT: Sustained.\n20 Q. And what is the date on the document?\n21 A. I can't see which date you're referencing.\n22 Q. Okay. Is this one of the documents you reviewed with\n23 Ms. Murray?\n24 A. I believe so, yes, ma'am.\n25 Q. At that time did you review whether the document was dated\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 or not?\n2 A. I can't recall.\n3 Q. Did you review the fact that there was no landlord's\n4 initials?\n5 A. I can't recall.\n6 Q. Do you recall if she asked you any follow-up questions if\n7 there was in fact an executed copy found?\n8 A. I don't believe so.\n9 Q. Okay. You don't believe she asked you?\n10 MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.\n11 THE COURT: Sustained.\n12 All right. So Ms. Shroff, ask the question once and\n13 don't ask it again.\n14 Q. She directed you to paragraph 32, correct, of this\n15 document?\n16 A. I believe so.\n17 Q. And that paragraph talks about window guards?\n18 A. Yes, ma'am.\n19 Q. Right? Did you look during your search to see if there was\n20 any follow-up to this window guard being put into place?\n21 A. I did not.\n22 Q. Okay. So when you were reading these paragraphs, you were\n23 simply reading what Ms. Murray asked you to read?\n24 A. Yes, ma'am.\n25 Q. Okay. And there was nothing unusual for you about\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 paragraph 32, correct?\n2 A. I couldn't say.\n3 Q. Okay. Thank you.\n4 MS. SHROFF: You can take that down, Jorge. Thank you\n5 very much.\n6 Now let's go to——I think it was NJ256.\n7 And if I could just have that brightened up for the\n8 jurors and the witness, please.\n9 Q. You were asked questions about this particular invoice,\n10 correct?\n11 A. That's correct.\n12 Q. Okay. And the focus seemed to be on this crocodile hoodie\n13 leather jacket, right?\n14 A. Yes, ma'am.\n15 Q. Okay. How about the cashmere mock neck sweater?\n16 THE COURT: Are you asking a question?\n17 MS. SHROFF: Yes, ma'am.\n18 Q. It cost $2,635; is that correct?\n19 A. That's the price listed, yes, ma'am.\n20 Q. Right. And for some reason there's one in blue and then\n21 there's one in red, correct?\n22 A. Yes, ma'am.\n23 Q. Okay. And then there's another one, red and blue, correct?\n24 THE COURT: One moment, please.\n25 You may continue.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 MS. SHROFF: Thank you.\n2 Q. And on the top there is a peplum biker jacket, right?\n3 A. Yes, ma'am.\n4 MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if I could now ask for Z9 to\n5 be pulled up.\n6 Q. I believe that was the video that the government showed\n7 you, correct? Do you recall this video?\n8 A. Was this one the video?\n9 Q. I thought she did show you that video. Do you recall that?\n10 A. I recall a video, yes, ma'am.\n11 Q. Right. And the focus seemed to be on some statue behind\n12 Mr. Guo's head, correct?\n13 A. Yes, ma'am.\n14 Q. It's a statue of Buddha, correct?\n15 A. I couldn't say.\n16 MS. SHROFF: Okay. Could we show her Z9.197.\n17 Now if you could just scroll up. And a little bit\n18 further up.\n19 Q. Okay. And Ms. Murray asked you questions about this\n20 particular video of February 17, 2023, correct?\n21 MS. MURRAY: Objection, your Honor. It's not what I\n22 asked her about.\n23 THE COURT: Sustained.\n24 Q. She asked you questions about this document?\n25 MS. MURRAY: No, your Honor, also not this entry.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 MS. SHROFF: Then she can say no, your Honor. It's\n2 just a question.\n3 THE COURT: All right. You may answer.\n4 A. I can't recall if it was this specific document or what the\n5 specific question was.\n6 MS. SHROFF: Okay. Let's just keep scrolling down.\n7 Q. And let's just look at that photograph, right? She asked\n8 you questions about what is the New Federal State of China,\n9 correct?\n10 A. I don't know if that's what she asked me.\n11 Q. Okay. Let's look at that little icon on the left side, or\n12 my left side, of Mr. Guo's head. On the corner left.\n13 A. Yes, ma'am.\n14 Q. Right. She asked you if you knew what the New Federal\n15 State of China was, correct?\n16 A. Yes, ma'am.\n17 Q. And what does it say right below that?\n18 A. CCP, equal sign with the crossoff, Chinese.\n19 Q. Okay. So even though Mr. Guo has not spoken in the video\n20 that she played you about CCP, you see a note about CCP on that\n21 document itself, or this video itself, correct?\n22 A. I see the note for CCP, yes, ma'am.\n23 MS. SHROFF: Okay. We can zoom out.\n24 If we could show her W183, please.\n25 Q. And do you recall being questioned about this document?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 A. I remember reading the title for this document, yes, ma'am.\n2 Q. Okay. So why don't we read \"The CCP strengthened its rule\n3 by.\" Could you read from that point onwards.\n4 A. \"The CCP strengthened its rule by cleaning up the party\n5 members, arresting those unwilling to be 'Party Slaves' and\n6 reluctant to obey orders. God blesses the NFSC; we lived\n7 through a tough time being sieged by the world's dark forces\n8 and made significant progress.\"\n9 MS. SHROFF: You can take that down.\n10 If I could go to page 156.\n11 I mean, not page 156, Exhibit NJ156.\n12 Q. Now you were asked several questions about this bookcase,\n13 correct?\n14 A. Yes, ma'am.\n15 MS. SHROFF: Okay. Now if we could just zoom into\n16 that statue that you see.\n17 Q. This bookcase, according to you, appears in several videos\n18 of Miles Guo, correct?\n19 A. It appears to be in the background of the videos, yes,\n20 ma'am.\n21 Q. Right. And the room itself——if you could zoom back\n22 out——shows a camera and other recording equipment over there,\n23 correct?\n24 A. Yes, ma'am.\n25 Q. And it shows a table where a person who would be doing the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 broadcasting would sit, correct?\n2 A. It shows a table, yes, ma'am.\n3 MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if you could zoom a little bit\n4 more outside of the room, just outside of the photograph. If\n5 you could just make——okay.\n6 Q. And none of your work involved learning whether or not more\n7 broadcasts were made from this particular room, correct?\n8 A. Could you rephrase the question.\n9 Q. Sure. Sitting here today, you do not know how many\n10 broadcasts were made from this room, correct?\n11 A. Correct.\n12 Q. And you don't know if other people broadcast from this\n13 room, correct?\n14 A. That's correct.\n15 Q. And you don't know if there was any other use to this\n16 particular room, correct?\n17 A. Yes, ma'am, that's correct.\n18 Q. Now you were shown photographs of various parts of this\n19 place called Crocker Mansion, correct?\n20 A. Could you repeat that, please.\n21 Q. Sure. You were shown various different vantage points of\n22 this Crocker Mansion place, correct?\n23 A. Yes, ma'am.\n24 Q. And you were shown a scale that you made, a drawing that\n25 you made, correct?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 A. I did not make the drawing, no, ma'am.\n2 Q. Who made it, by the way?\n3 A. Another search party member for the FBI.\n4 MS. SHROFF: Okay. Could I show that to the witness,\n5 please.\n6 Q. And when you were testifying about it, when was the first\n7 time you saw that sketch, this one, NJ358?\n8 A. This piece? Today.\n9 Q. So before today, you'd never seen this document?\n10 A. That's correct.\n11 Q. You'd not seen it when you prepared with Ms. Murray.\n12 MS. MURRAY: Objection. Asked and answered.\n13 THE COURT: Sustained.\n14 Q. Okay. And when you were testifying about this sketch——if I\n15 could just ask you to look on the left side. Do you see where\n16 it says Ramapo Valley Road on that part?\n17 A. Yes, ma'am.\n18 Q. What does it say right below that?\n19 A. It's not on the——\n20 Q. What does it say?\n21 A. It's still not on the screen, ma'am.\n22 Q. It's on my screen.\n23 MS. SHROFF: Is it on the jurors' screens?\n24 THE JURORS: Yes.\n25 A. It's not showing up for me.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 Q. How about now?\n2 A. Now I can see it, yes, ma'am.\n3 Q. Okay.\n4 A. It says, Preparer: Laura Rodia.\n5 Q. No, no. I meant right on the left, all the way on the\n6 left, Ramapo Valley Road, right there. What does it say below\n7 that?\n8 A. Guard House, Parking, Building, Tennis Court.\n9 Q. Okay. What's the guardhouse?\n10 A. A guardhouse.\n11 Q. Were there guards in it? Do you know when you went and\n12 searched the place if the guards were there?\n13 A. I couldn't say.\n14 Q. Okay. Well, the house had a lot of security on it,\n15 correct?\n16 A. Could you repeat the question.\n17 Q. Sure. Crocker Mansion had a lot of security on it,\n18 correct?\n19 A. I believe so.\n20 Q. Right. There were cameras everywhere, correct?\n21 A. I believe so.\n22 Q. There were cameras in the rooms themselves, correct?\n23 A. I couldn't recall.\n24 Q. There were cameras in the basement, correct?\n25 A. I couldn't recall.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 Q. Well, you were executing a search warrant there, right?\n2 A. Yes, ma'am.\n3 Q. And it's part of FBI protocol to be aware of all of the\n4 many nuances of the place you're going to search, correct?\n5 A. Can you rephrase the question.\n6 Q. Sure. Isn't it FBI protocol to have like a search plan?\n7 A. It is the protocol to have a plan, yes, ma'am.\n8 Q. Right. And the ERT has a plan, right?\n9 A. Yes, ma'am.\n10 Q. And part of the plan is to make sure that you know the\n11 place you're going to search, right?\n12 A. Yes, ma'am.\n13 Q. You want to be aware if there are cameras in the house,\n14 correct?\n15 A. We treat all areas as if there are cameras, ma'am.\n16 Q. I didn't hear that. Could you repeat that for me.\n17 A. It's best practice to always treat areas as if there are\n18 cameras, ma'am.\n19 Q. That wasn't my question, but that's okay. My question was:\n20 It is FBI protocol to make sure you're aware of where cameras\n21 are in the place you're searching, correct?\n22 A. Yes, ma'am.\n23 Q. You want to make sure there are no animals in the place\n24 where you're searching, correct, so a dog doesn't pounce out on\n25 you?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 A. Yes, ma'am.\n2 Q. Okay. And you want to make sure that the people who are\n3 still in the place that you're searching, you know who they\n4 are, correct?\n5 A. Yes, ma'am.\n6 Q. And when you searched this property, were there ex-NYPD\n7 people working there as security guards?\n8 A. I couldn't say.\n9 Q. Did you meet somebody named Scott Barnett who was in charge\n10 of security?\n11 A. I did not.\n12 Q. Do you know if anybody on your team met an ex-NYPD officer\n13 named Scott Barnett who was working at the Crocker Mansion?\n14 A. I'm not aware of that.\n15 Q. Did you make a list or make note of how many people were\n16 working that day?\n17 A. I did not.\n18 Q. Did you make a note of who was in that mansion that day?\n19 A. I did not.\n20 Q. Did you know, sitting here today, who, if anybody, was\n21 arrested in that house that day?\n22 A. I'm not aware.\n23 Q. Do you know, before you executed the search warrant,\n24 whether or not the——you're FBI, right?\n25 A. Yes, ma'am.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 Q. ——had like a drone circling the house?\n2 A. I couldn't say.\n3 Q. How about if any kind of FBI aviation structure was looking\n4 to see who was in the house that day?\n5 A. I couldn't say.\n6 Q. Mr. Guo wasn't in that house that day, correct?\n7 A. I'm not aware.\n8 Q. You just——I won't repeat.\n9 Was anybody else that you've testified about during\n10 your direct and now your cross, do you recall any of those\n11 people being in the home that day?\n12 A. I couldn't say if they were.\n13 Q. How long did you spend doing the search?\n14 A. It was a full, long day, late into the evening.\n15 Q. Right. And before you started the search, you had a\n16 tactical plan meeting, correct?\n17 A. There was a tactical plan meeting, yes, ma'am.\n18 Q. Did you attend it?\n19 A. No, ma'am.\n20 Q. Okay. Which meeting did you attend?\n21 A. The search meeting.\n22 Q. Okay. And you had a search team meeting so that the search\n23 could be organized, correct?\n24 A. Yes, ma'am.\n25 Q. And at the end of the day, when you had finished your\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 search, did you have a meeting at the end of the day?\n2 A. I was not present for that.\n3 Q. So you only participated in one meeting on that day.\n4 A. Yes, ma'am. I had to leave early.\n5 MS. SHROFF: Okay. We can take this down.\n6 Q. Now if I could have you recall the questions Ms. Murray\n7 asked you about this crocodile hoodie jacket. Do you remember\n8 testifying about that?\n9 A. Yes, ma'am.\n10 Q. Okay. And she showed you the hooded jacket, correct?\n11 A. Yes, ma'am.\n12 Q. And then she showed you the Gettr photo of Mr. Guo in that\n13 jacket, right?\n14 MS. SHROFF: I'm going to be right back.\n15 If I could just show it. Thank you.\n16 Q. She asked you questions about this——I don't know if I\n17 should call it a document or whatever it is, but this, right?\n18 A. Yes, ma'am.\n19 MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if we could just zoom out of\n20 this.\n21 Q. And she asked you to read parts of the document, right?\n22 A. Yes, ma'am.\n23 MS. SHROFF: Okay. And if we could just scroll down\n24 on this. Actually, if I could just——\n25 Q. You see it says March 7th, 2023?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 A. Yes, ma'am.\n2 Q. And what does it say right below that?\n3 A. 51st Episode.\n4 Q. Okay. And he's wearing G Fashion in that photograph; is\n5 that right?\n6 A. Yes, ma'am.\n7 Q. And that's the jacket that you testified about and the\n8 dollar amount and the crocodile and the hoodie, correct?\n9 A. It could be.\n10 Q. Well, you tell me. You testified on direct about it, so I\n11 just want to make sure I understand your testimony. Is it or\n12 is it not?\n13 A. I made observations about the jacket. I don't believe we\n14 said this is the exact jacket.\n15 Q. Okay. So sitting here today, you do not know if it's the\n16 exact jacket.\n17 A. It——I couldn't say.\n18 Q. Okay. But it says G Fashion on there, right?\n19 A. Yes, ma'am.\n20 Q. Okay. And as the agent testifying here today, do you by\n21 any chance know if Mr. Guo had a contract with G Fashion?\n22 A. I couldn't say.\n23 Q. Do you know if he was the promoter for G Fashion?\n24 A. I couldn't hear your question, ma'am.\n25 Q. Do you know if he was the promoter for G Fashion?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 A. I couldn't say.\n2 Q. Do you know if he got a hundred percent discount for\n3 promoting the ware that he was putting on?\n4 A. I couldn't say.\n5 MS. SHROFF: Okay. Well, let's scroll down.\n6 Okay. And the next page.\n7 Next page, please.\n8 Q. Did you read all of this or did you only read for the jury\n9 the portions Ms. Murray picked?\n10 A. I only read what was——I was asked to read.\n11 MS. SHROFF: Okay. How about the next page.\n12 Oh, actually this is the page. Go back up there.\n13 Q. This is where you read, right? \"Take a look at this\n14 leather hoodie I'm wearing,\" right?\n15 A. Yes, ma'am.\n16 Q. Okay. And she had you read this portion, right; how cute\n17 it would look?\n18 MS. MURRAY: Asked and answered.\n19 THE COURT: Sustained.\n20 MS. SHROFF: I'll move to the next paragraph. Could I\n21 have her read the next paragraph?\n22 A. Which paragraph, ma'am?\n23 Q. \"We shall cherish.\"\n24 A. \"We shall cherish what we already have. Brothers and\n25 sisters, we do have every reason to feel joyful and proud.\"\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Cross\n1 Q. Keep going.\n2 A. I have to find my place. Sorry.\n3 Q. That's okay.\n4 A. \"Is there anyone else who can compare to us? But we also\n5 must love our fellow fighters, for it's our obligation to do\n6 so.\"\n7 Q. Okay. Do you by any chance know if this document was\n8 translated or it was written in the English language?\n9 A. I couldn't say.\n10 MS. SHROFF: Okay. We can take that out.\n11 Q. Now, Special Agent Luciano, all told, you testified about,\n12 what would you say, like 120 photographs?\n13 A. I couldn't approximate.\n14 Q. Do you know how many photographs were taken?\n15 A. No, ma'am.\n16 Q. And sitting here today, do you recall how many rooms you\n17 searched?\n18 A. No, ma'am.\n19 Q. It's fair to say it's been more than a year since that\n20 search, right?\n21 A. Yes, ma'am.\n22 Q. And is it also fair to say that your memory and your\n23 recollection of events was refreshed by Ms. Murray when you met\n24 with her, correct?\n25 A. Not particularly.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Redirect\n1 Q. Your memory is still the same after she showed you the\n2 photos as it was before she showed you the photos?\n3 A. I believe so, yes, ma'am.\n4 MS. SHROFF: Okay. Thank you very much. I have no\n5 further questions.\n6 THE COURT: Redirect?\n7 MS. MURRAY: Thank you.\n8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION\n9 BY MS. MURRAY:\n10 Q. Special Agent Luciano, you were asked questions on\n11 cross-examination about the FBI's search protocols. Do you\n12 recall those?\n13 A. Yes, ma'am.\n14 Q. Was the Mahwah mansion cleared prior to the execution of\n15 the search?\n16 A. Yes, it was.\n17 Q. Can you explain for the jury what the process of clearing a\n18 location entails.\n19 A. Sure. So a separate tactical team will go through the\n20 entire expanse of the property, to include the grounds, any\n21 extra buildings, and the entire residence, to make sure that\n22 nothing could hurt or harm anyone that's entering for\n23 searching, and, in addition, will look for things like weapons\n24 that are immediately on the person, anybody who is in the\n25 vicinity of the property or the mansion, and any animals.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - Redirect\n1 Q. And did that process happen prior to your execution of the\n2 search on March 15, 2023, at the Mahwah mansion?\n3 A. Yes, ma'am.\n4 Q. You were also asked questions about the sketch of the\n5 Mahwah property. Do you recall those?\n6 A. I do.\n7 MS. MURRAY: Ms. Loftus, can we please pull up NJ353.\n8 Oh, excuse me, NJ358.\n9 And if we could zoom in on the top left portion. And\n10 this can go to the jury and the gallery as well.\n11 Q. Special Agent Luciano, you recall that Ms. Shroff asked you\n12 about the structure that is indicated below Ramapo Valley Road,\n13 correct?\n14 A. Yes, ma'am.\n15 Q. What is the street that is listed as coming off of Ramapo\n16 Valley Road on this portion of the sketch?\n17 A. Emma Court.\n18 MS. MURRAY: We can take that down.\n19 Q. And then you were also asked questions about the NFSC on\n20 cross-examination. Do you recall those?\n21 A. Yes, ma'am.\n22 Q. And about G Fashion?\n23 A. Yes, ma'am.\n24 Q. When you searched the Mahwah mansion on March 15, 2023, did\n25 you see any signs or placards that referenced the NFSC on any\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 of the doors within that residence?\n2 A. I couldn't recall.\n3 Q. Did you see any signs or placards referencing the NFSC or G\n4 Fashion next to the doorways of any of the rooms in the Mahwah\n5 residence on that day?\n6 A. I couldn't recall.\n7 MS. MURRAY: Nothing further, your Honor.\n8 THE COURT: Recross?\n9 RECROSS EXAMINATION\n10 BY MS. SHROFF:\n11 Q. She asked you about Emma Court, right?\n12 A. Yes, ma'am.\n13 Q. What's Emma Court?\n14 A. I couldn't say.\n15 MS. SHROFF: Okay. Thank you very much. You have a\n16 good day, ma'am.\n17 THE COURT: All righty then. You may step out of the\n18 courtroom.\n19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.\n20 (Witness excused)\n21 THE COURT: And the prosecution may call its next\n22 witness.\n23 MR. HORTON: Government calls Jesse Brown.\n24 (Witness sworn)\n25 THE COURT: Please state your name and spell it. You\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 may be seated.\n2 THE WITNESS: Jesse Brown. J-E-S-S-E, B-R-O-W-N.\n3 THE COURT: One moment, please.\n4 You may inquire.\n5 MR. HORTON: Thank you, your Honor.\n6 JESSE BROWN,\n7 called as a witness by the Government,\n8 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:\n9 DIRECT EXAMINATION\n10 BY MR. HORTON:\n11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Brown.\n12 A. Good morning.\n13 Q. What are you doing for work these days?\n14 A. I'm currently working on a new project that uses Solidity\n15 and Ethereum to tokenize our real-world assets.\n16 Q. And do you have any employees on this new project?\n17 A. I do not at this time.\n18 Q. Where do you conduct your work?\n19 A. Out of my home in Flagler Beach, Florida.\n20 Q. Did there come a time you were named the CEO of the\n21 Himalaya Exchange?\n22 A. Yes, there was.\n23 Q. And when were you the CEO of the Himalaya Exchange?\n24 A. That would have been sometime in the spring of 2022.\n25 Q. And for how long were you the CEO of the exchange?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. I'm sorry. That would have been the spring of 2021.\n2 Q. And for how long were you the CEO of the exchange,\n3 Mr. Brown?\n4 A. Till I resigned in the——in January of 2023.\n5 MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, can you please publish what's\n6 in evidence as GX 113.\n7 Q. Mr. Brown, who is in this image?\n8 A. That is me.\n9 Q. And were you CEO of the exchange when this image was taken?\n10 A. I was.\n11 Q. As CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, how many people\n12 reported to you?\n13 A. Zero.\n14 Q. And as CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, what were you in\n15 control of?\n16 A. I was in control of nothing at that.\n17 Q. Who appointed you CEO of the Himalaya Exchange?\n18 A. That would have been William Je.\n19 MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, can you pull up what's in\n20 evidence as GX 103.\n21 Can you publish it, please.\n22 Q. Mr. Brown, who is this?\n23 A. That is William Je.\n24 Q. As CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, who was your\n25 boss?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. That would have been William Je.\n2 MR. HORTON: You can take that down, please,\n3 Ms. Loftus.\n4 Q. Mr. Brown, what, if anything, happened on March 15, 2023?\n5 A. On March 15th, my house was surrounded, and the FBI came\n6 and took my personal devices, my work devices, and also\n7 documents from my home.\n8 THE COURT: Sir, if you would speak into the\n9 microphone so that everyone can hear you. Bring it closer to\n10 you if you want, but speak right into it.\n11 THE WITNESS: Okay.\n12 Q. Mr. Brown, did the FBI have a search warrant when they came\n13 to your home that day?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. Were you arrested?\n16 A. I was not.\n17 Q. Did you get a lawyer after that?\n18 A. I did.\n19 Q. And after you got a lawyer, did you meet with the\n20 government?\n21 A. I did.\n22 Q. About how many times did you meet with the government?\n23 A. Four or five times.\n24 Q. Mr. Brown, are you testifying today pursuant to an\n25 agreement?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. I am.\n2 Q. And what's your understanding of what that agreement means?\n3 A. The agreement means I will not be prosecuted for anything\n4 that I did with Guo Media, GTV, Himalaya Exchange, or a\n5 mortgage application that I applied for.\n6 Q. When you say a mortgage application, what happened with\n7 that mortgage application?\n8 A. That was a stated income application in 2007.\n9 Q. Why is that mortgage application part of your agreement\n10 with the government?\n11 A. Because I——I misrepresented my income.\n12 Q. And what are your obligations under this agreement,\n13 Mr. Brown?\n14 A. My obligations are to tell the truth at all times, to\n15 provide documentation when asked, and to provide availability\n16 as well.\n17 Q. And what's your understanding, Mr. Brown, about whether the\n18 nonprosecution agreement protects you from prosecution for\n19 conduct other than in connection with the Himalaya Exchange or\n20 with the 2007 mortgage application that you mentioned?\n21 A. It does not protect me.\n22 Q. And what is your understanding as to whether the\n23 nonprosecution agreement protects you from a prosecution for\n24 perjury, obstruction of justice, or making false statements if\n25 you lie on the stand today?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. It does not. It does not. It would be voided under those\n2 circumstances.\n3 Q. If you were to lie here, could the government tear up your\n4 nonprosecution agreement?\n5 A. They could.\n6 Q. Could you then be charged for your past conduct?\n7 A. I could.\n8 Q. Could the statements you made in your meetings with the\n9 government be used against you?\n10 A. They could.\n11 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Is this his understanding?\n12 THE COURT: As to what you understand the agreement to\n13 mean.\n14 You may continue.\n15 Q. That's right, Mr. Brown. Do you understand that if you\n16 were to lie here, the statements that you previously made to\n17 the government could be used against you?\n18 A. I do understand.\n19 Q. Aside from this nonprosecution agreement, Mr. Brown, were\n20 you made any other promises by the government?\n21 A. I was not.\n22 Q. I want to turn your attention now back to the Himalaya\n23 Exchange.\n24 What month and year did you interview for that job?\n25 A. That would have been June of 2020.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. And how many interviews did you have?\n2 A. I had two interviews.\n3 Q. Who interviewed you the first time?\n4 A. The first time was Yvette Wang and a gentleman named Joe.\n5 Q. And what company did you understand you were interviewing\n6 with when you were interviewed by Yvette Wang and Joe?\n7 A. GTV and Guo Media.\n8 Q. Where did you do this interview from?\n9 A. I did it from my home in Florida.\n10 Q. And where was Yvette interviewing you from?\n11 A. New York City.\n12 Q. What, if anything, did you know about Guo Media or GTV at\n13 that first job interview?\n14 A. I didn't really know that much for the first interview.\n15 Q. And after Yvette Wang, who interviewed you next?\n16 A. That would have been William Je.\n17 Q. Where did you do that interview with William Je?\n18 A. I actually did that interview from my late mother's home,\n19 via videoconference.\n20 Q. After your interview with William Je, did you get a job\n21 offer, Mr. Brown?\n22 A. Yes.\n23 Q. I'm going to show you what's marked as Government\n24 Exhibit 3419.\n25 What is this document, Mr. Brown?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. This was my offer of employment.\n2 MR. HORTON: Government offers GX 3419.\n3 MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.\n4 THE COURT: It is admitted.\n5 (Government's Exhibit 3419 received in evidence)\n6 MR. HORTON: If you could please publish it,\n7 Ms. Loftus.\n8 BY MR. HORTON:\n9 Q. Mr. Brown, what company did your job offer come from?\n10 A. GTV Media Group.\n11 Q. And what understanding, if any, did you have about what the\n12 G in GTV stood for?\n13 A. My understanding——\n14 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. At the time?\n15 THE COURT: Yes, at the time.\n16 A. My understanding was that it was a——it was Miles Guo.\n17 Q. And who controlled GTV, as you understood it?\n18 A. Miles Guo.\n19 Q. When is this offer letter dated, Mr. Brown?\n20 A. June 17, 2020.\n21 Q. And when did you start to work on this job for GTV?\n22 A. That would have been that week.\n23 Q. When you got this job offer from GTV, Mr. Brown, at that\n24 time what, if anything, did you know about the Himalaya\n25 Exchange?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. I didn't know a lot about the Himalaya Exchange.\n2 Q. When you took this job offer, June 2020, Mr. Brown, what\n3 did you understand that you were being hired to do?\n4 A. I understood that I was being hired to help launch and\n5 create cryptocurrency as well as work to build out or develop\n6 an exchange.\n7 Q. And when you were hired for that by GTV, what did you\n8 understand the name of the cryptocurrency was you were hired to\n9 help launch?\n10 A. The cryptocurrencies at that point were branded G Coin and\n11 G Dollar.\n12 Q. And what was your understanding as to why they were called\n13 G Coin and G Dollar?\n14 A. I believed it was for Miles Guo.\n15 Q. As you understood it, Mr. Brown, was there any relationship\n16 between the cryptocurrency projects you were hired on for GTV\n17 and any other Miles Guo companies?\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. What was that relationship?\n20 A. The relationship was to work with some of the entities for\n21 Miles Guo in the ecosystem.\n22 Q. And when you say the ecosystem, what are you referring to?\n23 A. I'm referring to entities that would have accepted or\n24 transferred the cryptocurrencies.\n25 Q. And besides the Miles Guo companies, what other companies\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 were part of that Himalaya Exchange ecosystem?\n2 A. There were no others.\n3 MR. HORTON: Ms. Loftus, if you could zoom in on\n4 paragraph 1 of this document, Position and Start Date.\n5 Q. Mr. Brown, this document says you would be reporting to Joe\n6 Wang, Chief Tech Officer, and Yvette Wang, Director, at our New\n7 York City office. After you took this job, did you report to\n8 Yvette Wang?\n9 A. I did not.\n10 Q. Did you report to Miles Guo?\n11 A. I did not.\n12 Q. Did you report to Joe Wang?\n13 A. I did not.\n14 Q. Who did you report to?\n15 A. I reported to William Je.\n16 MR. HORTON: We can take this down, please,\n17 Ms. Loftus.\n18 Q. Mr. Brown, what, if anything, did you understand was the\n19 relationship between William Je and Miles Guo?\n20 A. I wasn't really privy to the relationship, but I knew that\n21 they spoke frequently.\n22 Q. How did you know that?\n23 A. From——from meetings we had with——with the company and\n24 William stating that.\n25 Q. When you say \"meetings we had with the company,\" what did\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 you learn at those meetings?\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to the hearsay, your Honor.\n3 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.\n4 Q. When you say meetings at the company, what did you learn at\n5 those meetings about the relationship between William Je and\n6 Miles Guo?\n7 A. Well, there were several times his name was mentioned and\n8 talking about his entities and——and then also about\n9 certain——certain——certain initiatives that we had with his\n10 companies.\n11 Q. And when you say \"initiatives that we had with his\n12 companies,\" who's \"we\"?\n13 A. Himalaya Exchange.\n14 Q. And what were the initiatives that the Himalaya Exchange\n15 had with Miles Guo's companies?\n16 A. The idea was to work with G Fashion, G|CLUBS, and these\n17 other entities with the cryptocurrency.\n18 Q. After you were hired by GTV, what was your understanding of\n19 why you were reporting to William Je?\n20 A. Because William Je was launching the coins. He was\n21 involved in the——in issuing and launching the coins.\n22 Q. You accepted a job offer with GTV. Was reporting to\n23 William Je a different job or part of that same job?\n24 A. I saw it as part of the same job.\n25 Q. Mr. Brown, what was Hamilton Investment Management?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. That was a fund from London that William Je also managed.\n2 Q. And when you were interviewing for the GTV cryptocurrency\n3 job, what, if anything, were you told at that time about\n4 Hamilton?\n5 A. Nothing when I interviewed.\n6 Q. And when did you hear about Hamilton?\n7 A. Later on when I was hired.\n8 Q. Who did you hear about Hamilton from?\n9 A. William Je.\n10 Q. And what did you understand Hamilton did?\n11 A. Hamilton was an investment fund.\n12 Q. And why were you being told about it when you were working\n13 for William Je and GTV on a cryptocurrency project?\n14 A. The fund was going to be part of the——of the ecosystem as\n15 well, and the fund was going to work with the exchange.\n16 Q. When you say the fund, the Hamilton Fund was going to work\n17 with the Himalaya Exchange, what do you mean by that?\n18 A. Well, the——what they did is, the fund, people in the fund\n19 were allowed access to the——to the——to the coins.\n20 Q. Mr. Brown, taking a step back, when you worked for the\n21 Himalaya Exchange, how were you paid?\n22 A. I was——\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Time frame.\n24 THE COURT: Would you couch it in a certain time\n25 frame.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 MR. HORTON: Sure.\n2 Q. Mr. Brown, how long did you work for the Himalaya Exchange?\n3 A. Two and a half years, approximately.\n4 Q. During those two and a half years, how were you paid for\n5 your work?\n6 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Time frame.\n7 A. The first——\n8 THE COURT: From when until when?\n9 Q. Well, were there different ways that you were paid for your\n10 work, Mr. Brown?\n11 A. There were.\n12 Q. Can you explain what those were.\n13 THE COURT: It's the start of the work.\n14 MR. HORTON: Sure.\n15 Q. Starting at the time you joined——\n16 THE COURT: What year was that?\n17 THE WITNESS: The year I joined was 2020.\n18 Q. And how were you first paid for your work?\n19 A. I was first paid by Guo——Guo Media, and GTV.\n20 Q. And what was the form of payment?\n21 A. It was——I was paid biweekly.\n22 Q. You said there was more than one way you were paid. What\n23 happened? How were you paid after Guo Media?\n24 A. I was——I was let go by Guo Media at the end of the year,\n25 and I went onto the books of the London entity, Hamilton.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. And how were you paid from the books of the London entity\n2 Hamilton?\n3 A. I was wired money into my business account.\n4 Q. You said you were let go. What else, if anything, changed\n5 besides the way you were paid?\n6 A. I lost my health insurance.\n7 Q. And other than the entity paying you and your health\n8 insurance benefits, what, if anything, changed about your work\n9 when you were paid by Hamilton instead of Guo Media?\n10 A. Nothing changed.\n11 Q. Did you have colleagues at the Himalaya Exchange,\n12 Mr. Brown?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. Who employed your colleagues at the exchange?\n15 A. The Hamilton Group.\n16 Q. When you were reporting to William Je, where was he based?\n17 A. London.\n18 Q. And where were you working when you were reporting to him?\n19 A. Florida.\n20 Q. Where in Florida?\n21 A. Flagler Beach.\n22 Q. What kind of office were you working in?\n23 A. My home office.\n24 Q. How long did you spend reporting——withdrawn.\n25 How long did you report to William Je at the Himalaya\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Exchange?\n2 A. Until my resignation in January of 2023.\n3 Q. And how long a period was that, Mr. Brown?\n4 A. That would have been two and a half years.\n5 Q. During those two and a half years reporting to him, when,\n6 if ever, did you meet William Je?\n7 A. I did not meet William Je.\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Can we define \"meet.\" In\n9 person?\n10 THE COURT: Are you speaking about an in-person\n11 meeting?\n12 MR. HORTON: I can ask a few different questions, your\n13 Honor.\n14 THE COURT: Okay.\n15 BY MR. HORTON:\n16 Q. Mr. Brown, during your two and a half years reporting to\n17 William Je, did you ever meet him in person?\n18 A. I did not.\n19 Q. How did you communicate with the people you were working\n20 with at the exchange from your home in Florida?\n21 A. We had daily meetings in the mornings.\n22 Q. And how often, if ever, was William Je in those meetings?\n23 A. Pretty much every day.\n24 Q. You say daily meetings. What form did they take?\n25 A. They were videoconferences for me and for another employee\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 in Australia, but they were in person for everyone else in\n2 London.\n3 Q. Were there any other Himalaya Exchange employees in\n4 Florida, Mr. Brown?\n5 A. There were not.\n6 Q. Who led these video meetings that you participated in?\n7 A. That would be William Je.\n8 Q. And where would he sit in these meetings?\n9 A. He would sit at the end of a long table. There were——there\n10 were two screens. I was on one screen, the compliance manager\n11 from Australia was on another. And then the stakeholders would\n12 sit next to each other, and William would be at the end of the\n13 bench.\n14 Q. Could you just keep the microphone close to your mouth.\n15 A. Oh.\n16 Q. Just pull it closer to you so you don't have to lean\n17 forward.\n18 You said the stakeholders were in the meeting.\n19 A. Yes.\n20 Q. Who was that?\n21 A. The stakeholders would be the chief security officer, the\n22 chief financial officer, the chief marketing officer, and\n23 internal auditor.\n24 Q. Those executives you just mentioned, where did they work?\n25 A. They worked for Hamilton.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. And where in the world did they work?\n2 A. London.\n3 Q. Did you ever meet any of them in person?\n4 A. I did not.\n5 Q. At the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, what were country\n6 heads?\n7 A. Country heads were people who were helping market the coin.\n8 Q. And who selected the country heads?\n9 A. I'm not sure of that.\n10 Q. How did you know who the country heads were?\n11 A. They were spoken about during these meetings.\n12 Q. And who spoke about the country heads in the Himalaya\n13 Exchange meetings?\n14 A. That would have been William Je.\n15 Q. You said the country heads were to market the exchange.\n16 What did that mean?\n17 A. Well, they would——they would go out and seek people to\n18 participate in the private sale.\n19 Q. Who directed the country heads at the Himalaya Exchange?\n20 A. That would be William Je.\n21 Q. Mr. Brown, what are farms?\n22 A. I'm not——I'm not sure of that.\n23 Q. What's the Himalaya Farm Alliance?\n24 A. I have no——I have no——I don't know what that is.\n25 Q. When did you first learn about something called H Coin and\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 H Dollar?\n2 A. Pretty much my first day.\n3 Q. And other than the names, Mr. Brown, what, if anything, was\n4 the difference between G Dollar and G Coin on one hand and H\n5 Dollar and H Coin on the other hand?\n6 A. There was no difference.\n7 Q. And focusing on the time period when you were hired in\n8 mid-2020, what did you understand you were hired to do?\n9 A. I understood I was hired to help with the creation of the\n10 coins.\n11 Q. And who were you doing that work for? Who were you\n12 creating the coins for?\n13 A. That would have been Guo Media.\n14 Q. And what did you understand that to mean, hired to create a\n15 coin?\n16 A. Well, it——typically, in the——in the crypto industry, there\n17 are certain things you do to develop and issue a coin.\n18 Q. And what are those things?\n19 A. Well, there's——there's the tech development on the Ethereum\n20 blockchain was what we were looking at, and then also writing\n21 white papers and raising awareness.\n22 Q. And what's a white paper?\n23 A. A white paper is typically a document that you would——that\n24 you would release for a crypto that would talk about its\n25 utility, the team that's building it, and, you know, some\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 things you're going to be doing with a roadmap in the future.\n2 Q. You said you were looking at the Ethereum blockchain.\n3 First of all, what's the Ethereum blockchain?\n4 A. Well, the Ethereum blockchain is one of the most used\n5 blockchains. It's something that you can, you know, develop\n6 and create coins on top of.\n7 Q. And what does it mean to create a coin on top of the\n8 Ethereum blockchain?\n9 A. Well, Bitcoin is its own blockchain, and it's a little bit\n10 different. Ethereum allows developers to actually build coins\n11 on top of it through smart contracts.\n12 Q. Bitcoin and Ethereum, are these public launchings?\n13 Actually, withdrawn. Let me step back one step.\n14 When you say blockchain, what do you mean?\n15 A. Well, a blockchain is a publicly distributed ledger that\n16 shows all the transactions for that ledger.\n17 Q. And what do you mean by a public distributed ledger?\n18 A. Well, it's a——it's a ledger where typically there are what\n19 are called nodes in the system, so those are computers that\n20 approve or disapprove transactions.\n21 Q. Are all blockchains public?\n22 A. They are.\n23 Q. Is there such as thing as a private blockchain?\n24 A. There are private blockchains, but the——but the data is\n25 still made public to the members of that consortium.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. You said the exchange when you joined was looking at the\n2 Ethereum blockchain. But what do you mean by they were looking\n3 at it?\n4 A. Well, we were looking at using Quorum for it at that point.\n5 Q. And what's Quorum?\n6 A. Quorum is a JPMorgan product that allows for——for, like I\n7 was talking about, a private consortium to use a blockchain.\n8 Q. And what, if anything, did you understand when you first\n9 started working on this project about whether the coins would\n10 be on a public blockchain or a private blockchain?\n11 A. I understood that they were going to be on a private\n12 blockchain or something like Quorum, where members would be\n13 able to participate in it.\n14 Q. And why did you have that understanding?\n15 A. Well, because that's really how——the only way that crypto\n16 works.\n17 Q. What do you mean it's the only way that crypto works?\n18 A. Well——well, crypto has to be——it's a——it's something that\n19 is a public chain, so——so it's——everything is——is able to be\n20 viewed or seen by——by anyone who has——\n21 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, objection.\n22 A. ——online access.\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: Could we have a brief sidebar on this,\n24 please.\n25 THE COURT: All righty.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 (At the sidebar)\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: So I'm going to raise an objection.\n3 It's the same objection that we raised with respect to\n4 Mr. Roberts's testimony, from a week ago. We're veering into\n5 what is expert testimony here. I understand that Mr. Brown has\n6 held roles in the crypto and blockchain industry, just the same\n7 way Mr. Roberts held roles in the crypto and blockchain\n8 industry. But he's not been noticed as an expert, he's not\n9 been qualified as an expert, and to have him testify on, you\n10 know, general topics which is now I think, if you review the\n11 transcript, veering into opinion testimony as to what his view\n12 is of the way that crypto works and blockchain works. . . Now\n13 the question may have not been put that way. Mr. Horton was\n14 careful not to use the word \"view\" or \"opinion.\" But the\n15 answer was opinion.\n16 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, this is heartland 701\n17 testimony. He was hired——first of all, the context is, he was\n18 hired by an agent, one of the charged co-conspirators in the\n19 scheme. He was hired by GTV Media in the first instance and\n20 then reported to an agent who is a charged conspirator to carry\n21 out the conspiracy. Was an insider. He's very different from\n22 Mr. Roberts, who is approaching this from the outside and who\n23 had a limited several-month investigation from the outside of\n24 this. Mr. Brown was inside for two and a half years, and he's\n25 being asked questions about, when you were hired by the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 co-conspirators, about people who reported to the defendant.\n2 What did you understand you were being hired to do? When you\n3 say you were hired to do something on the blockchain, what did\n4 that mean to you at the time? That's the only way he can give\n5 the jury context about what he personally observed in realtime\n6 as an insider of the conspiracy.\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, we can look at the\n8 transcript. I may be wrong, but I believe the witness answered\n9 the question about what he believed he was hired to do, and\n10 then the next question veered into——it may not have been the\n11 questioner's fault, but the answer veered into generally that\n12 area.\n13 THE COURT: Would you read back the last question and\n14 answer.\n15 (Record read)\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: And that's the essence of the generic\n17 question about how the thing works, which is improper.\n18 THE COURT: He's hired to create this crypto exchange,\n19 and so it would be odd not to have him discuss his\n20 understanding of what he had to do.\n21 MR. SCHIRICK: Well, it's one thing, again, if he's\n22 discussing his understanding in the context of what he was\n23 hired to do. I understand that point, your Honor. But I\n24 think, you know, that answer is a more generic answer, a more\n25 sweeping answer. And again, we're just trying to police the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 line here between expert testimony, and we're raising the\n2 objection. It has nothing to do with whether there's a\n3 co-conspirator exception or whether there's a hearsay\n4 objection. So the fact that, you know, he worked for the\n5 Himalaya Exchange, reported to William Je, really is of no\n6 moment. It's just the answer that's been given, or was in the\n7 process of being given, I think veers towards expert testimony.\n8 THE COURT: So just how far do you expect to go?\n9 MR. HORTON: So he was the CEO of the Himalaya\n10 Exchange, cryptocurrency exchange for two and a half years. He\n11 experienced the projects that were being represented to the\n12 world as cryptocurrency projects. His testimony is about what\n13 the projects actually were, from his perspective, in realtime,\n14 as the CEO. And so to the extent that he mentions a term like\n15 blockchain, Quorum, or something that the jury is not going to\n16 know, I think it's fair to ask him, as an insider of the\n17 conspiracy, what did it mean in the conspiracy at the time?\n18 What did you understand it to mean? If there's a discrepancy,\n19 why?\n20 THE COURT: So you expect that he will say that what\n21 was created was inconsistent with what he expected?\n22 MR. HORTON: Yeah.\n23 THE COURT: That's fine.\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 (In open court)\n2 THE COURT: Members of the jury, it's 11:30, so we'll\n3 take our half-hour break now.\n4 Remember, do not discuss the case amongst yourselves\n5 or with anyone else. Don't permit anyone to discuss the case\n6 in your presence. Don't read, listen to, or watch anything\n7 from any source that touches upon the subject matter of this\n8 case.\n9 And sir, you may step out of the courtroom. Don't\n10 discuss your testimony.\n11 (Jury not present)\n12 (Witness not present)\n13 THE COURT: Is there anything before we return at\n14 noon?\n15 MR. HORTON: Not from the government.\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: Not from the defense, your Honor.\n17 (Recess)\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 AFTERNOON SESSION\n2 12:00 p.m.\n3 THE COURT: Please bring the jurors in.\n4 THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.\n5 (Jury present)\n6 THE COURT: Remember, sir, that you're under oath.\n7 You may continue the inquiry.\n8 MR. HORTON: Thank you, your Honor.\n9 BY MR. HORTON:\n10 Q. Mr. Brown, before the break you were discussing your\n11 understanding of the cryptocurrency and exchange project you\n12 were hired for. What did you understand about whether the\n13 coins you were hired to work on would be on a public blockchain\n14 or a private blockchain?\n15 A. I understood that they would be on a public blockchain.\n16 Q. What, if anything, did you understand the role -- before\n17 the break you mention something called Quorum. Can you remind\n18 the jury what Quorum is?\n19 A. Quorum is a JPMorgan open source blockchain that is an\n20 enterprise chain for ethereum.\n21 Q. Is quorum a public blockchain or a private blockchain?\n22 A. It's a private blockchain.\n23 Q. And when you were hired to work on the cryptocurrency\n24 project for GTV, what understanding, if any, did you have about\n25 the role that the Quorum blockchain would have in this project?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. I understood that it would be the chain that the coins\n2 would be distributed on and transferred and traded on.\n3 Q. Now, Mr. Brown, in your two and a half years with the\n4 Himalaya Exchange, when, if ever, could customers buy H Coin on\n5 a blockchain?\n6 A. Never.\n7 Q. And when, if ever, could customers buy H Dollar on a\n8 blockchain?\n9 A. Never.\n10 Q. Was that what you were expecting when you took this job in\n11 2020?\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, asked and answered.\n13 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.\n14 A. It was not.\n15 Q. What were you expecting about the type of coin you\n16 developed?\n17 A. I was expecting something that would be built on top of the\n18 Quorum chain and something that would be what a typical crypto\n19 would be.\n20 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n21 THE COURT: Are you saying what you expected it to be?\n22 THE WITNESS: Yes.\n23 THE COURT: Go ahead.\n24 Q. You said you were expecting it to be what a typical crypto\n25 would be, how is what you actually observed at the exchange\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 different from what you'd expected typical crypto to be?\n2 A. The exchange used just a database. It wasn't a blockchain.\n3 Q. And what was the database you're talking about? What does\n4 that mean?\n5 A. Well, a database is a typical tech tool where data is\n6 stored and accessed by computers.\n7 Q. And what was the name of the database that the Himalaya\n8 Exchange was using?\n9 A. It was Posgrest I believe.\n10 Q. Can you spell that.\n11 A. P-O-S-G-R-E-S-T, I believe.\n12 Q. And this database, how does it compare to a spreadsheet?\n13 A. It's typical to a spreadsheet only it would allow, not only\n14 structured data, but unstructured data.\n15 Q. Was this database on the blockchain?\n16 A. It was not.\n17 Q. Where was it if it wasn't on the blockchain?\n18 A. It was controlled by the Exchange and the technology team\n19 there.\n20 Q. As CEO of the Exchange, did you have access to this\n21 internal database?\n22 A. I did not.\n23 Q. Why not?\n24 A. I wasn't allowed access to any of the technology that they\n25 were building in London.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. What do you mean that you weren't allowed access to any of\n2 the technology that the Exchange was building?\n3 A. There was only a small group of people in London that had\n4 access for security reasons.\n5 Q. Did you ever ask William Je why you didn't have access to\n6 the Exchange's internal database as its CEO?\n7 A. I did not.\n8 Q. Why not?\n9 A. I just felt as though the chief security officer and the\n10 chief operations officer were the ones really managing that.\n11 Q. If customer couldn't buy H Coin on the blockchain, what\n12 could they buy from the Exchange?\n13 A. They could buy credits.\n14 Q. And when you were hired to work on this GTV cryptocurrency\n15 project, were you told about credits then?\n16 A. No, I was not.\n17 Q. What were credits at the Himalaya Exchange?\n18 A. Credits were when people would join the exchange, they\n19 would buy certain credits with U.S. dollar that they had\n20 deposited into their accounts and then they would receive\n21 credits for the crypto.\n22 Q. And what were the name of the credits at the Himalaya\n23 Exchange?\n24 A. The names of the credits, could you repeat that?\n25 Q. Sure. What were the names of the credits that people could\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 buy at the Himalaya Exchange, what were they called?\n2 A. Himalaya Dollar and Himalaya Coin.\n3 Q. And were Himalaya Dollar credits and Himalaya Coin credits\n4 the same or different from Himalaya Dollar and Himalaya Coin?\n5 A. They were different.\n6 Q. How were they different?\n7 A. The Himalaya Dollar was a stable coin which was backed.\n8 For every Himalaya Dollar, it was to be backed by a U.S. dollar\n9 in a bank account.\n10 Q. And how was the Himalaya Dollar credit different from the\n11 Himalaya Dollar stable coin?\n12 A. It was not.\n13 Q. It was not the same you said?\n14 A. No, it was the same.\n15 Q. It was the same?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. When somebody bought a Himalaya Dollar credit, were they\n18 actually buying a Himalaya Dollar?\n19 A. They were buying credits to the dollar, not the actual\n20 dollar itself.\n21 Q. And where were these credits, Himalaya Dollar credit,\n22 Himalaya Coin credit, where were they stored?\n23 A. They would have been stored on the database I believe.\n24 Q. Could customers buy Himalaya Coin credits and Himalaya\n25 Dollar credits on the blockchain?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. They could not.\n2 Q. In your understanding at the time as the CEO of the\n3 Exchange, were these credits cryptocurrency?\n4 A. No, they were not.\n5 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.\n6 THE COURT: Overruled.\n7 Q. In your understanding, Mr. Brown, at the time as the CEO of\n8 the Himalaya Exchange, were these credits cryptocurrencies?\n9 MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.\n10 THE COURT: He answered that question.\n11 MR. HORTON: I'm sorry, your Honor. I wasn't sure if\n12 the jury heard the answer.\n13 A. Could you repeat it.\n14 THE COURT: No. He answered the question. He did.\n15 Q. Who did you first hear about the credits from?\n16 A. I first heard about the credits from William Je in a\n17 meeting, team meeting.\n18 Q. And, Mr. Brown, what did William Je say about the credits\n19 in this meeting?\n20 A. He spoke to them as if they were like an amusement park\n21 credits where you pay for tickets and cash them out when you\n22 left the park.\n23 Q. What did you think when you heard William Je describe the\n24 credits that way?\n25 A. Somewhat amusing.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. What was amusing about it to you?\n2 A. It just kind of flies in the face of a cryptocurrency,\n3 right --\n4 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor.\n5 THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.\n6 Q. Mr. Brown, what do you mean that the credits at the\n7 Himalaya Exchange fly in the face of a cryptocurrency?\n8 A. Well, what cryptocurrency is about, it's about a public\n9 chain where transactions are viewed to for everyone. And\n10 everything that goes on, on that chain people have access to.\n11 This wasn't anything like that.\n12 Q. Why weren't the credits anything like that?\n13 MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.\n14 THE COURT: Sir, you're speaking based upon your\n15 personal understanding. Is that correct?\n16 THE WITNESS: Yes.\n17 THE COURT: Go ahead.\n18 Q. Mr. Brown, why as the former CEO of the Himalaya Exchange,\n19 why in your view, why in your understanding, were the credits\n20 at the Exchange nothing like the cryptocurrencies you've just\n21 described?\n22 A. Because the credits were obfuscated. They weren't public\n23 knowledge like a public blockchain were or like a private chain\n24 would be for all the consortium members.\n25 Q. You said earlier that you helped draft white papers at the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Exchange?\n2 A. Yes.\n3 Q. Where were these white papers published?\n4 A. They were published on the Himalaya Exchange website.\n5 Q. Were they available for the public?\n6 A. They were.\n7 Q. Did these white papers discuss HCN and HDO credits?\n8 A. Yes, they did.\n9 Q. Did you ask William Je questions about why the exchange was\n10 using credits instead of cryptocurrencies on the blockchain?\n11 A. Yes, I did.\n12 Q. What did you ask him?\n13 A. I asked him why we were using this model as opposed to just\n14 issuing the coins on the chain.\n15 Q. And what did William Je say when you asked him why the\n16 Exchange wasn't issuing credits on the blockchain?\n17 A. At that point we were looking for a place to issue the coin\n18 and the British Virgin Islands was a jurisdiction that they\n19 picked. And that at this point legal counsel in the British\n20 Virgin Islands suggested this.\n21 Q. Mr. Brown, you were at the Exchange for two and a half\n22 years. At any time during your time there were H Coin and H\n23 Dollar able to be bought or sold on the blockchain?\n24 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n25 THE COURT: Asked and answered. You don't need to\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 answer.\n2 Q. Mr. Brown, if you thought that these credits were not\n3 cryptocurrencies, why didn't you leave your job?\n4 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n5 THE COURT: You may answer.\n6 A. I kept my job for my paycheck.\n7 Q. When you worked at the Exchange at that time, did you\n8 believe it was a legitimate business?\n9 A. Yes. Yes.\n10 Q. Did you believe you were committing crimes when you worked\n11 there?\n12 A. I didn't, no.\n13 Q. And remind the jury when did you leave the Exchange?\n14 A. January of 2023.\n15 Q. By the way, Mr. Brown, was G/Club a client of the Himalaya\n16 Exchange when you were there?\n17 A. They were.\n18 Q. And what did G/Club use the Exchange for?\n19 A. I believe it was for the money transfer for the purchase of\n20 the G/Club memberships.\n21 Q. And did you understand what that meant at the time?\n22 A. I did not.\n23 Q. Did you ask William Je what it meant?\n24 A. I did not.\n25 Q. In general, Mr. Brown, what was your understanding of how\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 William Je treated your views and opinions?\n2 A. You know, I think because I was in Florida, I wasn't able\n3 to get in his ear as much as a lot of the people in London\n4 were, so most of my concepts or strategies or ideas never\n5 really made it to fruition.\n6 Q. And how, if at all, did that effect your experience being\n7 the CEO of the Exchange that William Je -- that your ideas\n8 didn't take fruition?\n9 MR. SCHIRICK: Object to form.\n10 THE COURT: You may answer.\n11 A. I just felt like I was kind of a strawman, like the face of\n12 the company. I didn't really have any say in anything that\n13 went on.\n14 Q. Why did you feel like a strawman? What do you mean by\n15 that?\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: Asked and answered.\n17 THE COURT: You may explain what strawman means.\n18 A. Strawman is someone who is, they don't really have any say\n19 in the decision making, right. They're just kind of the face\n20 of it but don't really have any input into the decisions.\n21 Q. What understanding, if any, Mr. Brown, did you have about\n22 why the Exchange wanted you to be its face?\n23 A. I think part of it was I was willing to move to the BVI,\n24 and I think part of it too was my experience at DTCC and at\n25 Ford working with blockchain there.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. And did you feel like you were able to bring that\n2 experience to bear when you were working at the Exchange?\n3 A. Not at all.\n4 Q. You said you were willing to move to the BVI, did you\n5 ultimately move there?\n6 A. I never did make it there.\n7 Q. Did you spend time at the BVI for the Exchange?\n8 A. I did.\n9 Q. And what were you doing there for the Exchange?\n10 A. Part of the time was spent seeking out an office space.\n11 Other time was spent talking to telecom providers about a\n12 potential data room, and then other times I was working with a\n13 sandbox application there as well.\n14 Q. And did the Exchange ever get a property in the BVI?\n15 A. We did not.\n16 Q. Did it ever get a data room in the BVI?\n17 A. It did not.\n18 Q. What happened to the sandbox application?\n19 A. Denied.\n20 Q. What is a sandbox application?\n21 A. A sandbox application is an application where you apply for\n22 an exchange license, but you're placed in a sandbox kind of as\n23 a test period to see if everything will be compliant and\n24 everything you do with your company will meet their guidelines.\n25 Q. Was that's the application that was denied?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. That was.\n2 Q. How many hours a day were you working on Exchange projects\n3 down in the BVI?\n4 A. Probably about three or four hours.\n5 Q. How did that compare to the amount of day you were spending\n6 on Exchange work back in Florida?\n7 A. It was about the same.\n8 Q. Did you like being in the BVI?\n9 A. I did.\n10 Q. Other than three hours a day working for the Exchange, what\n11 did you do down there?\n12 A. I surfed.\n13 Q. What was your title when you were hired in 2020, Mr. Brown?\n14 A. Associate blockchain manager I believe.\n15 Q. Did you seek out -- did there come a time that you sought\n16 out the title of CEO?\n17 A. No.\n18 Q. How did you find out you'd been named the CEO?\n19 A. During one of our stakeholder meetings William appointed me\n20 CEO.\n21 Q. Before that happened in the meeting, did you know it was\n22 going to happen?\n23 A. I did not.\n24 Q. Was it on the agenda for that meeting?\n25 A. It was not.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. What was your reaction when you heard William say that you\n2 were their CEO?\n3 A. I was pretty surprised.\n4 Q. Why were you surprised?\n5 A. I don't consider myself CEO material.\n6 Q. Why do you mean by that? Why aren't you CEO material?\n7 A. Well, I'm a terrible public speaker. I don't really\n8 understand all the dynamics that go with being a chief\n9 executive. I'm a tech guy.\n10 Q. Had you ever been a CEO before that?\n11 A. I had not.\n12 Q. Did you ever lead an organization?\n13 A. No.\n14 Q. Mr. Brown, what, if anything, about the work you were doing\n15 change after you were named CEO?\n16 A. I guess I was involved more in the marketing side.\n17 Q. What did that entail being involved in more of the\n18 Exchange's marketing side?\n19 A. It meant doing some video sessions and doing some\n20 interviews that were given to me by the marketing team.\n21 Q. What do you mean that interviews were given to you by the\n22 marketing team?\n23 A. They would decide who I would talk to and when. They would\n24 set the agendas.\n25 Q. And what kinds of things would you talk about in these\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 interviews?\n2 A. Talk about the Exchange, the coin, technologies that were\n3 used.\n4 Q. Did you have an understanding of why the Exchange wanted\n5 you to do public interviews?\n6 A. No. Like I said, I'm terrible at them.\n7 Q. Did you ever ask William Je why you're asking me to do\n8 this?\n9 A. No, I just considered it something that I had to do.\n10 Q. Mr. Brown, what, if anything happened with the Exchange in\n11 November 2021?\n12 A. That's when we had the official launch.\n13 Q. What do you mean by the official launch?\n14 A. The Exchange -- prior to the launch, there was a private\n15 sale for the HCN coins or for the H Dollar coins. People were\n16 topped up to buy H Dollar. And then when the Exchange launched\n17 would be the first time people could buy these coins.\n18 Q. The private sale you referred to, were people buying H\n19 Coins or H Coin credits?\n20 A. They were buying H Coin credits.\n21 Q. Were they buying H Dollars or H Dollar credits?\n22 A. They were buying H Dollar credits.\n23 Q. When you say building up to the launch, what do you mean\n24 building up to the launch?\n25 A. There was a presale where a $100 million was raised before\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 the launch of the Exchange?\n2 Q. What was the date of the launch?\n3 A. November 1, 2021.\n4 Q. What's your understanding of why that date was chosen for\n5 the launch?\n6 A. My understanding was, it was a drop dead day issued by\n7 Miles Guo.\n8 Q. How do you have that understanding?\n9 A. Well, we had really struggled to launch the Exchange. It\n10 was scheduled to launch several times previously in the\n11 previous months, and every time we failed, and there was a time\n12 where that was it. We had to launch the exchange on November 1\n13 come hell or high water.\n14 Q. Did Miles Guo have a title at the Exchange?\n15 A. Not that I'm aware of.\n16 Q. Did he participate in those daily video meetings with\n17 William Je?\n18 A. No.\n19 Q. What is your understanding of how that drop dead launch\n20 date came from Miles Guo?\n21 A. It was from some conversation that I had after with some\n22 team members and then also --\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to the hearsay.\n24 THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.\n25 Q. Mr. Brown, the question was how do you have the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 understanding that Miles Guo gave you instruction for the\n2 Exchange to launch on November of 2021?\n3 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, can we have a brief sidebar\n4 on this, please.\n5 THE COURT: All right.\n6 (Continued on next page)\n7\n8\n9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 (At the sidebar)\n2 THE COURT: Mr. Horton, do you expect that he is going\n3 to say that the people he was speaking with were part of the\n4 alleged conspiracy?\n5 MR. HORTON: Yes. What he's going to say is that what\n6 the people working with William Je at the Himalaya Exchange\n7 telling him what the Exchange is doing for Miles Guo.\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, the question is, how far\n9 does this co-conspirator exception goes, and to what extent\n10 does the government have to build up. As we understood the\n11 Court's opinion to require specific statements from specific\n12 people that can be relaid as hearsay under the exception.\n13 Right now, we don't even know who he's talking about. He's\n14 just talking about people at the Exchange, right. So is every\n15 person -- we understood the Court's ruling pretrial to be that\n16 there was no blanket exception under which hearsay would be\n17 permitted. Just because someone used, of the various entities\n18 here, had conversation with witnesses. And right now that's\n19 where we're at.\n20 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, there is now in evidence\n21 minutes if not hours of the defendant talking about G Dollar,\n22 G Coin, H Dollar, H Coin, the Exchange, video of him saying\n23 that. William Je's testimony. William Je was running that\n24 project. He's charged as a co-conspirator. The information\n25 Mr. Brown was getting was from people who worked directly for\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 William Je at the Himalaya Exchange which is instrumentality in\n2 this Rico conspiracy telling him what was going on.\n3 MR. SCHIRICK: There's a difference, your Honor,\n4 between saying that William Je said something that this witness\n5 will identify and saying unidentified views of people who\n6 worked for Mr. Je.\n7 MR. HORTON: There's a co-conspirator exception.\n8 There's also an agent exception. They worked together. He's\n9 the principal and he's speaking on behalf of a co-conspirator.\n10 That comes in.\n11 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to let it in. I've\n12 ruled.\n13 (Continued on next page)\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 (In open court; jury present)\n2 THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.\n3 BY MR. HORTON:\n4 Q. Mr. Brown, the question was how did you understand that it\n5 was Miles Guo who gave the instruction for the Exchange to\n6 launch on November 1, 2021?\n7 A. After having some conversations with some colleagues after\n8 the launch and then also during the launch, GTV had a big\n9 presentation going on at the time.\n10 Q. And what role, if any, did you have in GTV's presentation\n11 on the launch day of the Himalaya Exchange?\n12 A. I was to speak live as soon as the launch, as soon as the\n13 Exchange was launched.\n14 Q. And where did you get that assignment from?\n15 A. I got that assignment from William Je.\n16 Q. We'll come back to that in a second.\n17 Were you CEO on the day of the launch?\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. Were you CEO in the days running up to the launch?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. In your view was the Exchange ready to launch?\n22 A. It was not.\n23 Q. Why was it not ready to launch?\n24 A. We had struggled so long with the technology. I had a lot\n25 of talks with the technology leaders and they felt the same\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 way.\n2 Q. And you said struggle with the technology, what does that\n3 mean?\n4 A. It means we weren't able to deliver on time. At the time\n5 there was the pandemic. It was hard to get really talented\n6 blockchain developers, and we just really didn't have the skill\n7 set or the means to deliver on time.\n8 Q. What time on November 1, 2021, was the Exchange suppose to\n9 launch?\n10 A. I believe it was nine or ten in the morning.\n11 Q. And what time did it launch?\n12 A. Eleven at night.\n13 Q. And why is that?\n14 A. Because it wasn't ready. And from my understanding from\n15 conversations, one developer kind of put together the Exchange\n16 quickly in that time to launch.\n17 Q. How did that happen?\n18 How did it happen that one developer put the Exchange\n19 together quickly?\n20 A. He was just kind of like the top superman developer I guess\n21 that was there and he took matters into his own hands.\n22 Q. Mr. Brown, after the Exchange launched that day, at this\n23 point were customers able to buy H Coin on the blockchain?\n24 A. No.\n25 Q. Were customers able after the launch to buy H Dollar on the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 blockchain?\n2 A. No.\n3 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, asked and answered.\n4 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.\n5 A. No.\n6 Q. You said that there was a long broadcast on GTV on launch\n7 day, did you participate in it?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. And where did you film your interview from?\n10 A. My office in Florida.\n11 Q. The people interviewing you on GTV, do you know where they\n12 were broadcasting from?\n13 A. I do not.\n14 Q. What were you -- can you sort of walk the jury through that\n15 day, what was it like for you?\n16 A. Well, it was stressful. I was supposed to talk at ten.\n17 I'm not great at public speaking, so I was a little nervous. I\n18 didn't think the tech would be ready, and then it just dragged\n19 on for hours and hours and hours which led to more anxiety.\n20 Q. And what specifically were you asked to do on GTV that day,\n21 launch day?\n22 A. I believe just to be interviewed.\n23 Q. Ms. Loftus, can you please pull up what's been marked as\n24 GX3401, just for the witness, please. Then with the sound off,\n25 Ms. Loftus, if you could please scroll through it for the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 witness, please. Mr. Brown, what is this?\n2 A. This would be my interview during the launch day.\n3 MR. HORTON: Government offers GX-3401.\n4 MR. SCHIRICK: No objection.\n5 THE COURT: It is admitted.\n6 (Government's Exhibit 3401 received in evidence)\n7 Q. Can you please publish this, Ms. Loftus, and if you could\n8 take it to the one minute and 45 second mark and play that with\n9 sound for the room.\n10 (Media played)\n11 Q. Mr. Brown, you said we suffered some delays, but we wanted\n12 to make sure we did it right, and I think we have.\n13 Do you think the Exchange had gotten it right that\n14 day?\n15 A. No.\n16 Q. Why did you say that on GTV?\n17 A. For fear of disrupting the whole launch.\n18 Q. Ms. Loftus, can we go to the 2:45 mark, please.\n19 (Media played)\n20 Q. Mr. Brown, the question you were asked was what are the\n21 advantages of H Coin compared to other crypto like Bitcoin.\n22 When you were asked that question on GTV, was H Coin a\n23 cryptocurrency like Bitcoin?\n24 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, asked and answered.\n25 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. It was not.\n2 Q. Why not?\n3 A. It wasn't on the blockchain.\n4 Q. In your answer on the video, you said we have this\n5 permissioned chain that we use, what were you referring to by\n6 permissioned chain?\n7 A. Quorum.\n8 Q. And were customers able to buy H Coin or H Dollar using\n9 Quorum on the date of this interview?\n10 A. They were not.\n11 Q. Were your answers in this interview truthful, Mr. Brown?\n12 A. They were not.\n13 Q. Why did you lie in these interviews?\n14 A. Again, I was fearful of causing a major selloff during the\n15 launch of the coin, and I was kind of toeing the company line\n16 on what to say during these events.\n17 Q. And what do you mean by the company line?\n18 A. Well, there were certain talk points that, you know, we\n19 were to discuss at all times, and one of those was the Quorum\n20 chain.\n21 Q. And where did you get your understanding of what the\n22 talking points were to be?\n23 A. That would have been from the legal team and from the\n24 marketing team as well.\n25 Q. And legal and marketing at the Exchange, who did they\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 report to?\n2 A. William Je.\n3 Q. Mr. Brown, was this November 2021 GTV interview the only\n4 time you gave an interview in public on behalf of the Exchange?\n5 A. It was not.\n6 Q. In those other interviews, did you say things about the\n7 Exchange and its coins that were not true?\n8 A. I did.\n9 Q. And what are the things that you lied about in these other\n10 interviews?\n11 A. Really constantly talking about the coin being on the\n12 blockchain and us using Quorum.\n13 Q. You said a moment ago that you were fearful of causing a\n14 selloff?\n15 A. Yes.\n16 Q. What is a selloff?\n17 A. Well, a selloff is when there's fear in the marketplace and\n18 people rush to sell their currencies.\n19 Q. And what effect, if any, would a selloff have on the price\n20 of H Coin?\n21 A. It would drop the price.\n22 Q. What happened to H Coin's price on the day of the launch?\n23 A. It popped.\n24 Q. What does that mean that it popped?\n25 A. It went from 10 cents to a dollar while I was interviewing,\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 and it later went to $20 dollars in 14 days.\n2 Q. And as the CEO of the Exchange at the time, what was your\n3 understanding of -- well, let me ask you this.\n4 What was your reaction of seeing that price hike?\n5 A. Kind of amazed.\n6 Q. And why is that?\n7 A. It was kind of a giant leap for a coin that was really only\n8 on a small exchange. It wasn't on any big exchanges.\n9 Q. And what do you mean that the coin wasn't on any big\n10 exchanges?\n11 A. Well, typically when you launch a coin, two exchanges will\n12 pick you up. And when that happens and the coin is kind of\n13 broadcast on a lot of sites that rank coins and show prices\n14 like the NASDAQ does. So, we weren't anything like that. So\n15 the awareness for our coin globally didn't exist.\n16 Q. When the H Coin price was rising the way you explain,\n17 Mr. Brown, at this time were customers able to hold an H Coin\n18 or were they able to hold an H Coin credit?\n19 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n20 THE COURT: You may answer.\n21 MR. SCHIRICK: Over and over.\n22 A. Credits.\n23 Q. Did you ever ask William Je if there's an explanation for\n24 the price hike?\n25 A. No.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. Was H-Coin ever listed on other exchanges other than the\n2 Himalaya Exchange?\n3 A. It was not.\n4 Q. What about H Dollar?\n5 A. No.\n6 Q. And as the CEO at the time, what was your understanding of\n7 why H Coin and H Dollar weren't listed anywhere except the\n8 Himalaya Exchange?\n9 A. There was quite a bit of fear among the stakeholders that\n10 if it was listed on other exchanges, the price would drop.\n11 Q. And who were the stakeholders who had this fear about a\n12 price drop?\n13 A. Pretty much all of them, but the chief security officer,\n14 the legal team and the chief operations officer.\n15 Q. What was your understanding of why listing H Coin and\n16 H Dollar on other exchanges could cause a price drop?\n17 A. Well, because it would allow a free market to participate\n18 in a much broader scale, so more people could come in and it\n19 would give the people who owned the coin more liquidity to\n20 sell.\n21 Q. And why didn't the exchange want that?\n22 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n23 THE COURT: By the word \"exchange,\" why didn't the\n24 exchange want that? Who are you referring to?\n25 Q. Mr. Brown, you were the CEO at the time?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. Yes.\n2 Q. What was your understanding why stakeholders at the\n3 Exchange didn't want the coins or the dollar to be listed on\n4 another exchange?\n5 A. For fear that the price would drop.\n6 Q. What is humming bot. Do you know what that is?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. Can you spell it, please?\n9 A. H-U-M-M-I-N-G, B-O-T.\n10 Q. What is humming bot?\n11 A. It's a software that trades takes both sides of a trade.\n12 It will buy and sell autonomously.\n13 Q. Was humming bot used at the Himalaya Exchange?\n14 A. It was.\n15 Q. And how did you know that?\n16 A. It was spoken about in several meetings.\n17 Q. And who told you that humming bot was being used at the\n18 Exchange?\n19 A. That would be David Fallon.\n20 Q. Who is David Fallon?\n21 A. He was the fund manager for Hamilton Fund.\n22 Q. Who did David Fallon work for?\n23 A. William Je.\n24 Q. What's your understanding as the CEO of the Exchange why\n25 humming bot was being used on the Exchange?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. There were primarily two purposes. One was to -- a bot is\n2 typically used in a low volume scenario where there aren't a\n3 lot of traders. That does not bode well for other investors\n4 because they don't want to see a ghost town, so these bots\n5 automatically trade to give the impression of activity.\n6 Q. Why are they called bots?\n7 A. Because they're automated. There's no human behind them.\n8 It's just software.\n9 Q. You said a low volume scenario?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. What does that mean?\n12 A. A low volume scenario means there's not a lot of trades.\n13 Typically an Exchange will trade in the millions everyday.\n14 Q. At the time did you observe a low volume scenario at the\n15 Himalaya Exchange?\n16 A. Yes. It got gradually worse after the launch.\n17 Q. And as the volume got gradually worse, what, if anything,\n18 was happening to the price?\n19 A. The price remained stable for the most part.\n20 Q. What was your understanding of how that was?\n21 A. My understanding was that the bot was driving a lot of the\n22 trades and propping the price.\n23 Q. Did you ever ask William Je about the humming bot?\n24 A. I did not.\n25 Q. Why not?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. That was a David Fallon fund task.\n2 Q. Mr. Brown, did there come a time you learned anything about\n3 GTV and the SEC?\n4 A. There did.\n5 Q. And were you CEO at the time you learned this information?\n6 A. I was.\n7 Q. What did you learn?\n8 First of all, what's the SEC?\n9 A. The Securities Exchange Commission.\n10 Q. And what did you learn when you were CEO of the Himalaya\n11 Exchange about GTV and the SEC?\n12 A. I learned that they entered into a settlement with the SEC,\n13 and part of the SEC stated that Miles Guo was not to\n14 participate in any crypto or security issuances directly or\n15 indirectly.\n16 Q. As CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, why did you learn that\n17 information?\n18 A. I typically read some of the SEC filings because at that\n19 point there was a lot going on with FTX and their collapse, and\n20 basically to understand compliance moving forward because\n21 compliance is a very difficult thing in this field, so you kind\n22 of have to get a feel for the industry.\n23 Q. What, if anything, did you do when you learned that there\n24 was a GTV settlement with the SEC about cryptocurrency?\n25 A. I raised it in one of the meetings.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. Mr. Brown, was this a Himalaya Exchange meeting?\n2 A. Yes, it was.\n3 Q. Why did you raise GTV's settlement with the SEC in a\n4 Himalaya Exchange meeting?\n5 A. Because there was a lot of marketing being done by Miles\n6 Guo at that time around the Exchange, and I felt that that was\n7 indirectly being involved.\n8 Q. What do you mean marketing being done by Miles Guo around\n9 the Exchange?\n10 A. He spoke about the Exchange a lot on his platforms. He\n11 created an I-tunes song about HCN to the moon.\n12 Q. Did you hear that song?\n13 A. I did.\n14 Q. Before the Himalaya Exchange, had you worked in black\n15 chain?\n16 A. I had.\n17 Q. What, if anything, did the title HCN to the Moon mean to\n18 you?\n19 A. Well, to the moon is a crypto saying that everyone wants to\n20 invest in a coin and then it skyrockets in price to the moon.\n21 Q. Mr. Brown, what was your understanding about why Miles Guo\n22 was making a song called H Coin to the Moon?\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n24 THE COURT: You may answer.\n25 A. I don't know if I had an understanding of why.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Q. You said that you raised the GTV settlement in a meeting at\n2 the Himalaya Exchange, who was in this meeting?\n3 A. The stakeholders that I mention before, as well as William\n4 Je and head of legal.\n5 Q. And who was the head of legal?\n6 A. Priya Patel I believe is the name.\n7 Q. What did you say about this GTV cryptocurrency settlement\n8 in this meeting?\n9 A. Well, I raised the issue because I felt that, you know, by\n10 promoting the coin and by talking about the coin that was being\n11 indirectly involved in it.\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, can we have a brief sidebar\n13 here again?\n14 THE COURT: Yes, you may step up.\n15 (Continued on next page)\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 (At the sidebar)\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I let two questions go\n3 there where the subject of the question was a meeting at the\n4 Exchange that involved the stakeholders of the Exchange\n5 including the general counsel of the Exchange. Now we're\n6 clearly getting into -- I think the witness was just asked\n7 about what counsel said. In any event, we're clearly in the\n8 context of what would be a privileged discussion and it's\n9 inappropriate for the government to elicit testimony.\n10 THE COURT: One moment. I just want to hear the\n11 question.\n12 (Record was read)\n13 THE COURT: So what is it that you expect might be\n14 elicited that you object to?\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: I think eliciting any testimony about\n16 this conversation where the witness, according to his own\n17 words, raising a legal question, a legal issue, concern. And I\n18 expect that the next question or two or five is going to get\n19 further into that. In fact -- well, I'll leave it at that.\n20 THE COURT: I think Mr. Horton is going to tell us\n21 about an exception. Go ahead.\n22 MR. HORTON: It's the crime fraud exception is\n23 relevant here. First of all, if there was a privilege to\n24 assert Himalaya Exchange, the lawyers in this meeting aren't\n25 able to assert that privilege. They don't represent the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Himalaya Exchange. I don't believe they're asserting that\n2 Priya Patel was representing Miles Guo. They'll free to assert\n3 that, that would be relevant to the case. There's a privilege\n4 to assert. It's not their privilege to assert. To be really\n5 clear, Priya Patel is a co-conspirator. If she speaks on\n6 behalf of the instrumentality of a Rico conspiracy, it's not\n7 privilege. When she lies to Mr. Brown, it's not privileged.\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: May I just respond to that, your Honor.\n9 So again we have the agent and co-conspirator exceptions here\n10 swallowing the rule. All the government appears to need to say\n11 is that someone is an agent of one of the many entities or just\n12 assert that a person is a co-conspirator without so much of\n13 proving either of those things out. And then not only do we\n14 have testimony coming into evidence for its truth, we also have\n15 privilege conversations coming in. Now we're happy to take a\n16 break and see if we can raise someone at the Exchange to see if\n17 they'd like to assert privilege. The government has not -- we\n18 had no notice that this was going to happen, right. You didn't\n19 tell us beforehand that you were going to go through it. We\n20 didn't have an opportunity ahead of time to get ahead of this.\n21 We're dealing with it in realtime. We can't very well say that\n22 no one from the Exchange is here to assert privilege. That is\n23 the ultimate argument.\n24 MR. HORTON: Just two brief things on that, your\n25 Honor. Ms. Patel all over Mr. Brown's 3500 because this was\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 important for him as the CEO of the Exchange. Second thing,\n2 there was extensive testimony from Sam Roberts from Bitgo about\n3 communications he had with Priya Patel where she was not only a\n4 spokesperson for the Himalaya Exchange, she spoke extensively\n5 about Miles Guo and his relationship to the Exchange.\n6 MR. SCHIRICK: I'm not sure what that has to do with\n7 anything. Those were third-party conversations. We're talking\n8 about privileged conversations.\n9 THE COURT: So the government is alleging that she was\n10 part of the conspiracy?\n11 MR. SCHIRICK: I understand that, your Honor. We\n12 understand the Court's pretrial ruling to require that there be\n13 some proof of that before the testimony comes in. That only\n14 takes care of one issue. We're still on the privilege issue.\n15 THE COURT: I think the foundation has been laid to\n16 establish the rule.\n17 MR. SCHIRICK: In a conspiracy?\n18 THE COURT: Yes.\n19 MR. SCHIRICK: I'm not sure I'm aware of what that\n20 evidence is, but I think it's a separate question whether crime\n21 fraud applies. Obviously I think, my understanding at least,\n22 is that it would require the Court to make a finding that at\n23 the advice of counsel was used in connection with a crime, was\n24 used to facilitate a crime. And just a conversation that's\n25 happening around a round table about developments with an SEC\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 settlement is far from proving that the lawyer's advice was\n2 used in connection with committing a crime.\n3 MR. HORTON: Your Honor doesn't need to go there. The\n4 question can be about what happened when Mr. Brown raised the\n5 issue of the GTV settlement in this meeting. What happened is\n6 not Ms. Patel gave legal advice. She did not give legal\n7 advice. For one thing she said, he believes is a lie. Another\n8 thing, there's no world in which her response was legal advice.\n9 MS. SHROFF: He literally said he raised a legal\n10 concern and he raised it with a lawyer in the meeting in her\n11 capacity as a lawyer. She's certainly not there in any other\n12 capacity.\n13 MR. HORTON: I expect Mr. Brown will testify that\n14 after he raised this issue, Priya Patel looked to William Je\n15 and said, that's the first I'm hearing of that. And he will\n16 say that struck him as not credible even what he understood.\n17 MR. SCHIRICK: That doesn't make it not true.\n18 MR. HORTON: That's not legal advice, this is the\n19 first I heard of it.\n20 THE COURT: Considering all the testimony concerning\n21 Ms. Patel, I think that an accurate foundation has been laid,\n22 so I'm going to permit the testimony. I just wanted to make\n23 clear that under Guiney I'm making a conditional finding of I'm\n24 expecting the prosecution to be making a motion at the end of\n25 their case.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 (In open court; jury present)\n2 THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue.\n3 BY MR. HORTON:\n4 Q. Mr. Brown, who were the stakeholders in the Himalaya\n5 Exchange meeting when you raised the GTV settlement about\n6 cryptocurrency?\n7 A. That would have been the chief security officer, the chief\n8 operations officer, the chief financial officer, the chief\n9 marketing officer, William Je, legal and internal audit.\n10 Q. And, sorry, you mentioned Priya Patel before the sidebar?\n11 A. Yes.\n12 Q. Who is that?\n13 A. She was the head of legal.\n14 Q. And as you observed it, what was her role at the Exchange?\n15 What did she do?\n16 A. She basically made all the decisions at the end, all the\n17 commercial decisions.\n18 Q. And who did Ms. Patel report to?\n19 A. William Je.\n20 Q. What happened when you raised the SEC settlement with GTV\n21 about cryptocurrency in this meeting with the Exchange?\n22 A. There was somewhat of an awkward silence. I observed Priya\n23 looking at William and then she basically turned to me and\n24 stated that was the first she had heard of it.\n25 Q. Had you previously heard Ms. Patel talk about Miles Guo?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. I don't recall.\n2 Q. How did it strike you when Ms. Patel said that was the\n3 first she heard of it?\n4 A. Between the awkwardness, the sheepness, I found it somewhat\n5 untruthful.\n6 Q. Why did you find it some what untruthful when Ms. Patel\n7 said she hadn't heard about this SEC settlement before?\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to relevance, your Honor.\n9 THE COURT: You may answer.\n10 A. I just felt that she was a competent lawyer. She would\n11 have done due diligence and understood it.\n12 Q. Mr. Brown, why would someone from the Himalaya Exchange\n13 know about the SEC settlement with GTV from the cryptocurrency?\n14 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, hypothetical.\n15 THE COURT: Sustained.\n16 Q. Mr. Brown, was it your expectation that Ms. Patel would\n17 know what you were talking about?\n18 A. It was.\n19 Q. Why did you expect that the head of legal at the Himalaya\n20 Exchange would know about the SEC settlement with GTV on\n21 cryptocurrency?\n22 A. Because she spoke to William all the time and understood\n23 all of the dynamics of the relationship between William and\n24 Miles.\n25 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to testifying about what\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Ms. Patel understood.\n2 THE COURT: He cannot speak to what was on her mind.\n3 So that portion about what she understood is stricken.\n4 Q. Mr. Brown, why did you expect -- withdrawn.\n5 Did you ask William any questions about the\n6 settlement?\n7 A. I did not.\n8 Q. Why not?\n9 A. We quickly moved on after that with our regular agenda.\n10 Q. Mr. Brown, you said earlier that Miles Guo promoted H Coin\n11 on social media, did you personally observe any of that?\n12 A. I heard the I-tune song.\n13 Q. I'm going to show you a document that's in evidence as\n14 GXC-405. Ms. Loftus, can you please put that up. If you could\n15 scroll to the top.\n16 Mr. Brown, what is this?\n17 A. It looks like an article from G News.\n18 Q. And what was G News?\n19 A. I believe it was one of the entities in Guo Media.\n20 Q. Ms. Loftus, if you could scroll down.\n21 Mr. Brown, what you do understand this document shows?\n22 A. There was a live broadcast and it's reporting highlights\n23 from September 29.\n24 Q. Ms. Loftus, can you please scroll down about just under\n25 halfway down the page. There's a paragraph caption, What's the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Best Way to keep the Chinese People's Money Safe. When you get\n2 there, can you enlarge that paragraph.\n3 Mr. Brown, do you see this paragraph, it's entitled\n4 What's the Best Way to Keep the chinese People's Money Safe\n5 Without Devaluation?\n6 A. I do.\n7 Q. Ms. Loftus, in the middle of this paragraph there's a\n8 sentence that starts, the Safest Virtual Coin. If you could\n9 highlight that, please.\n10 Mr. Brown, could you read this statement?\n11 A. Yes. The safest virtual coin at the moment is Himalaya\n12 Coin because 20 percent of the value is anchored in gold.\n13 Q. Ms. Loftus, can you go to the top and show the date of this\n14 interview.\n15 Were you the CEO of the Himalaya Exchange on September\n16 29, 2021?\n17 A. I was.\n18 Q. Was it true, Mr. Brown, that 20 percent of the value of\n19 H Coin was anchored to gold?\n20 A. No, it wasn't.\n21 Q. How much of the value of H Coin was anchored to gold?\n22 A. None to my knowledge.\n23 Q. How much of the Himalaya Dollar Reserve was in gold?\n24 A. Zero.\n25 Q. As CEO of the Exchange, did you have any role on what Miles\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Guo said?\n2 A. I did not.\n3 Q. Did you ever tell Miles Guo not to make statements like\n4 this?\n5 A. I did not.\n6 Q. Why not?\n7 A. I never spoke to Miles Guo.\n8 Q. And as CEO of the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, were you\n9 told to sign documents?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. Who told you to sign documents?\n12 A. I was requested to sign documents often by the chief\n13 financial officer and also the compliance officer at the time.\n14 Q. And what kinds of documents would these executives at the\n15 Exchange tell you to sign?\n16 A. Mostly they were bank applications because getting banking\n17 was very difficult for crypto companies at this time, and then\n18 also I would sign other things around audits and other things\n19 representing the Exchange.\n20 Q. What was your understanding of why you were being asked to\n21 sign documents that were going to banks and auditors?\n22 A. Could you repeat that.\n23 Q. What was your understanding, Mr. Brown, of why you were\n24 being told to sign documents that were going to banks and\n25 auditors?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. Cause I was the CEO.\n2 Q. Did you read these documents when you were asked to sign\n3 them?\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. How carefully did you read them?\n6 A. Not that carefully.\n7 Q. Why is that?\n8 A. I'm a quick scan reader.\n9 Q. When, if ever, did you ask a document to be changed before\n10 you signed it?\n11 A. I don't recall ever asking.\n12 Q. And why is that?\n13 A. They were just typical CEO things I thought needed to be\n14 signed and pushed through.\n15 Q. Ms. Loftus, can you please pull up what's in evidence as\n16 GXBR-208-A. It's the first page. Can you show the second\n17 page, Ms. Loftus. You can zoom in on the text above Jesse\n18 Brown's CEO signature line to the top of the page, please.\n19 Did you sign this document, Mr. Brown?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. It says U.S. dollars held in Himalaya own bank accounts.\n22 How much money does it report were being held in the Himalaya\n23 own bank accounts?\n24 A. That would be almost over a little over $401 million.\n25 Q. When you signed this as CEO, did you know if this was true?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. I did not.\n2 Q. What did you know at that time about how much money the\n3 Exchange had?\n4 A. I had no knowledge on any money that the Exchange had.\n5 Q. Before you signed this, did you ask anyone to verify if it\n6 was true?\n7 A. I don't recall.\n8 Q. The lines below this refer to collateralized HDO credits on\n9 Himalaya ecosystem platforms and collateralized HDO tokens on\n10 the ethereum blockchain.\n11 What's the number on the line item for collateralize\n12 HDO tokens on the blockchain?\n13 A. That would be zero.\n14 Q. Where it says collateralized HDO credits on Himalaya\n15 ecosystem platform, what does Himalaya ecosystem platforms\n16 refer to?\n17 A. That would be all the entities on the platform.\n18 Q. And what is the purpose, as you understood it of this\n19 document that refers to collateralize HDO credits, what did\n20 collateralize mean in this context?\n21 A. I believe the coin would be collateralized against that\n22 amount.\n23 Q. How, if at all, does this document relate to the HDO\n24 reserve?\n25 A. As I stated before in my testimony, with a stable coin each\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 coin has to be backed by a dollar, and that's what this would\n2 have represented.\n3 Q. What, if anything, does this document say about how much\n4 gold was used to collateralize H Dollar?\n5 A. There's no gold mentioned in this document.\n6 Q. When you worked at the Himalaya Exchange, Mr. Brown, did\n7 there come a time you learned about a seizure of funds?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. And what was the seizure you learned about?\n10 A. We had funds in I believe it was a bank in Puerto Rico that\n11 were frozen by the U.S. government.\n12 Q. How did you find out that the government had frozen the\n13 Himalaya Exchange funds?\n14 A. I heard about it in an emergency meeting.\n15 Q. And what did you hear in that emergency meeting at the\n16 Exchange after the seizure?\n17 A. I heard that the funds were frozen, and we were going to be\n18 unable to provide redemptions.\n19 Q. What were redemptions?\n20 A. Redemptions are when Himalaya Exchange users would cash in\n21 their credits and receive fiat for that amount.\n22 THE COURT: What do you mean by fiat?\n23 THE WITNESS: U.S. dollar.\n24 Q. What would it mean for a customer to not be able to make a\n25 redemption at the Himalaya Exchange?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. It would mean that their money was trapped in the Exchange\n2 and they couldn't take it out and deposit it into their own\n3 accounts.\n4 Q. And were you CEO at the time you learned about the\n5 seizures?\n6 A. I was.\n7 Q. What was your understanding of why the Exchange stopped\n8 redemptions at that time?\n9 A. Because we were unable to provide any fiat or any U.S.\n10 dollar to satisfy the redemption.\n11 Q. Mr. Brown, what effect, if any, was there on the money in\n12 the H Dollar reserve after the seizures?\n13 A. There was no reserve to my knowledge.\n14 Q. What, if anything, would that mean about the status of\n15 H Dollar?\n16 A. It would mean it's no longer backed and worthless.\n17 Q. What did the Exchange tell its customers about this?\n18 A. There was a big customer service push to mention that we\n19 were having problems with banking at the time and that we were\n20 hoping to resolve them in the immediate future and to please be\n21 patient.\n22 Q. Did the Exchange say that H Dollar was no longer a stable\n23 coin?\n24 A. They did not.\n25 Q. Was it a stable coin at this point?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. No.\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n3 THE COURT: Sustained.\n4 Q. Were you the CEO at the time, Mr. Brown?\n5 A. I was.\n6 Q. After the H Dollar reserve the funds were gone, was your\n7 understanding that H Dollar was a stable coin?\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, misstates the record.\n9 THE COURT: Was it your understanding -- I didn't hear\n10 the last part.\n11 Q. The question was as CEO at the time, after the seizure of\n12 funds, was it Mr. Brown's understanding that H Dollar was still\n13 a stable coin at this point?\n14 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection.\n15 Q. Was there any cash left at the Exchange at this point as\n16 far as you knew, Mr. Brown?\n17 A. As far as I knew we were cash strapped.\n18 Q. Was that disclose to customers?\n19 A. It was not.\n20 Q. As the CEO of the Exchange at the time, did you have an\n21 expectation about how these seizures would affect the price of\n22 H Coin?\n23 A. Yes.\n24 Q. And what was your expectation?\n25 A. Well, at this point there was a lot of fear in the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 marketplace after what had happened to FTX and some other big\n2 Exchanges. So there would have been a big run, what's called a\n3 run where everyone tries to sell at once.\n4 Q. Just to be clear, what was your expectation about what\n5 would happen if anything to the price of the Himalaya\n6 Exchanges's coins?\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n8 THE COURT: What did you fear, is that the question?\n9 MR. HORTON: Yes.\n10 THE COURT: Go ahead.\n11 A. A big price drop because that's what happens during these\n12 times.\n13 Q. And what did happen to H Coin's price?\n14 A. Very little.\n15 Q. Were you able to account for that, Mr. Brown?\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, calls for speculation.\n17 THE COURT: You may answer.\n18 A. I was not.\n19 Q. Did you ask William Je about why the H Coin price didn't\n20 drop after the seizure?\n21 A. I did not.\n22 Q. As a CEO at the Exchange at the time, Mr. Brown, what, if\n23 anything, did you know about the Exchange making a $37 million\n24 loan?\n25 A. I recall there was a meeting about that during one of\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 our -- during a meeting we had. We had meetings around -- I\n2 can't remember the specific term, but it was based on -- there\n3 were five or six of us in a board and things came up, and we\n4 determined we were going to do them collectively as a team or\n5 not. I can't remember the exact name of what that group was,\n6 but there was a group that collectively made decisions that\n7 William Je led.\n8 Q. And as the CEO of the Exchange at the time, did you know\n9 what that $37 million expense was for?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. What was it for?\n12 A. It was stated that it was for a loan.\n13 Q. Did you know what the purpose of that loan was as the CEO?\n14 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, foundation.\n15 THE COURT: You may answer if you know.\n16 A. Yes, I believe it was for a yacht.\n17 Q. Were you asked to approve that, Mr. Brown?\n18 A. I was.\n19 Q. What, if anything, did you do to look into the\n20 circumstances around the Exchange making a $37 million loan for\n21 a yacht?\n22 A. It was discussed. It was discussed internally. There were\n23 some objections made, but ultimately it was voted to go ahead\n24 and make the loan.\n25 Q. And what understanding, if any, did you have at the time as\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 CEO about why the Himalaya Exchange was loaning $37 million for\n2 a yacht?\n3 A. It seemed like a personal loan to me.\n4 Q. Did you take any steps to stop it from going through?\n5 A. Marios and myself objected and talked through it and then\n6 begrudgingly agreed to it.\n7 Q. Who is Marios?\n8 A. Marios was the COO.\n9 Q. When you say it seem like a personal loan, personal loan\n10 for who?\n11 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection to seem like. It's\n12 speculation.\n13 THE COURT: Sustained.\n14 Q. Why did it appear to you to be a personal loan?\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.\n16 THE COURT: Sustained.\n17 Q. Why was your understanding that it was a personal loan?\n18 MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.\n19 THE COURT: Sustained.\n20 Q. I'll move on. In your two and a half years at the Exchange\n21 before that, had the Exchange made a loan for a yacht?\n22 A. No.\n23 Q. Who was this loan for if you knew?\n24 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n25 THE COURT: You may answer that, yeah.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 A. William stated it was for Miles Guo's daughter.\n2 Q. And what understanding, if any, did you have about why the\n3 Himalaya Exchange was making a loan for Miles Guo's daughter?\n4 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, relevance.\n5 THE COURT: You may answer.\n6 A. I didn't really have an understanding why.\n7 Q. What happened with this $37 million loan for Miles Guo's\n8 daughter after you and the COO objected?\n9 A. It ultimately passed.\n10 Q. Mr. Brown, did there come a time that your title changed\n11 again from CEO to something else?\n12 A. It did.\n13 Q. What did it change to?\n14 A. I was promoted to president.\n15 Q. And how, if at all, did your job change when you became\n16 president of the Exchange?\n17 A. It didn't really change at all.\n18 Q. How did you find out that you were becoming president of\n19 the Exchange?\n20 A. I believe it was in another meeting, a group meeting.\n21 Q. And who told you that you were no longer the CEO?\n22 A. Well, I had gotten a few messages from colleagues who asked\n23 me if I was fired originally.\n24 Q. Before you got those messages asking you if you were fired,\n25 what, if anything, did you know about your job title at the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Exchange?\n2 A. I didn't know it had changed.\n3 Q. Who replaced you if anybody as CEO?\n4 A. There was a gentleman. His name was Kevin and he replaced\n5 me.\n6 Q. And as far as you understood who picked Kevin to replace\n7 you as the Himalaya Exchange CEO?\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n9 THE COURT: You may answer.\n10 A. It was well-known that he was placed there. Miles Guo\n11 placed him there.\n12 Q. How did you learn that Miles Guo had placed Kevin at the\n13 Exchange?\n14 A. Kevin told me.\n15 MR. HORTON: If I could have just a moment, your\n16 Honor.\n17 Q. Going back to a minute for your interview with Yvette Wang,\n18 were you asked by Ms. Wang about your views of the Chinese\n19 Communist Party?\n20 A. I was not.\n21 Q. Do you have a view of the Chinese Communist Party?\n22 A. I do not.\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n24 THE COURT: Sustained.\n25 Q. In your two and a half years at the Himalaya Exchange,\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO3 Brown - Cross\n1 Mr. Brown, did you understand it to be a political\n2 organization?\n3 A. I did not.\n4 MR. HORTON: No further questions, your Honor.\n5 THE COURT: Cross examination.\n6 MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.\n7 CROSS-EXAMINATION\n8 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Brown.\n10 A. Good afternoon.\n11 Q. I'd like to take us back to the beginning here if it's okay\n12 with you and just talk about how you got your start in crypto.\n13 You first started working in the blockchain in crypto\n14 industry in 2016 or thereabout?\n15 A. Yes, late 2016.\n16 Q. And do you sort of consider yourself self-taught?\n17 A. That's a fair statement.\n18 Q. And we'll get to your work at the Himalaya Exchange in a\n19 moment. You had a number of other positions in the industry\n20 before the Himalaya Exchange, right?\n21 A. Yes.\n22 Q. So let's just walk through them briefly. The first was at\n23 Ford; is that correct?\n24 A. Yes, I was --\n25 Q. I'll follow-up. Thank you. That's the car company, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO3 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Yes.\n2 Q. And you were a consultant for four to five months there?\n3 A. A little bit shorter.\n4 Q. And now you can explain if you would what you did there?\n5 A. I was Ford's first blockchain consultant.\n6 Q. And the next role you had was working with electronic\n7 health records, but it was crypto-related; is that right?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. And the concept was that you would own your own health\n10 records, but be able to send them securely over the blockchain?\n11 A. That's correct.\n12 Q. And that was in 2017?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. And you were there for less than a year or so?\n15 A. Yes.\n16 Q. And why was it only a year or so that you were there?\n17 A. I was fired.\n18 Q. And then the next venture you went to was something called\n19 Data Blockchain, right?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. And you worked there for a couple of years?\n22 A. Yes.\n23 Q. And what did Data Blockchain do?\n24 A. It made it easier for small companies to purchase records\n25 to market to people for specific industries. So a mom and pop\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO3 Brown - Cross\n1 shop would have the same advantages of someone buying, you\n2 know, a $100,000.\n3 Q. It was like an advertisement related?\n4 A. Yeah, that's fair.\n5 Q. And then a time came when you left there, right?\n6 A. Yes.\n7 Q. And why was that?\n8 A. The job ended then. They no longer wanted to pursue\n9 issuing a coin.\n10 Q. And then at some point you also -- withdrawn.\n11 Following the Data Blockchain job, at some point you\n12 began talking to, if I have it correct, the Government of Nevis\n13 about a potential crypto project; is that right?\n14 A. That's correct.\n15 Q. And Nevis the Caribbean Island?\n16 A. That's correct.\n17 Q. And why don't you tell us about that?\n18 A. I was going to raise a token to enable the country to\n19 launch a geothermal plant and build data centers there.\n20 Q. And what happened with that?\n21 A. Kind of ran out of steam with the government. There was\n22 some back and forth, but never got the financing.\n23 Q. And how long did that last?\n24 A. It was ongoing back and forth for a couple of years, but it\n25 was just something that, you know, these types of things have\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO3 Brown - Cross\n1 to pass through multi-layers of government.\n2 Q. Just didn't get traction?\n3 A. Yeah.\n4 Q. And your next position was at the DTCC, right?\n5 A. Yeah, that's right.\n6 Q. And the DTCC is a clearing house; is that right?\n7 A. That's right.\n8 Q. And it's a clearing house for, among other things, stock\n9 transactions, transaction in equity, right?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 (Continued on next page)\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n2 Q. Okay. And am I right that the DTCC is, well, probably the\n3 largest clearing entity, at least in the United States?\n4 A. Yes, in the world. They settle all over a trillion dollars\n5 a day in stock transactions.\n6 Q. It's a massive operation.\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. And you were there for approximately four months, right?\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. And then why did you leave that job?\n11 A. That was a consultant role, and it ended.\n12 Q. Okay. And now these roles that we just went through, you\n13 were not a coder or a programmer in these positions, right?\n14 A. No.\n15 Q. No. And you weren't a software engineer, right?\n16 A. No.\n17 Q. Because you have no formal training in computer science,\n18 right?\n19 A. No. I studied computer science in college.\n20 Q. Did you graduate with a degree in computer science?\n21 A. I did not.\n22 Q. Okay. And even today, you don't really do coding on crypto\n23 projects, right? Your role is a little different.\n24 A. I——I do——I don't code in Solidity, but I——I can architect,\n25 I read it, I understand it.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Sure.\n2 A. But yeah, I don't——I don't create production code.\n3 Q. Okay. So code not really your thing, right? Not your\n4 strength.\n5 A. No, not my strength.\n6 Q. As you said before, you're more of a designer or sort of\n7 architect for——\n8 A. Architect, yeah.\n9 Q. ——crypto projects. Okay. And fair enough.\n10 So let's just talk——I mean, for some of us who are not\n11 as initiated in crypto and blockchain as you are, if we can,\n12 for a second, about some of the jargon in——\n13 A. Okay.\n14 Q. ——crypto and blockchain, all right?\n15 A. Yeah.\n16 Q. Now so just, what is a blockchain?\n17 A. It's a public ledger. It's called a distributed ledger\n18 technology.\n19 Q. Okay. And it allows you to record transactions that occur\n20 on that chain, right?\n21 A. Yes.\n22 Q. Okay. And on a public blockchain, those transactions are\n23 visible.\n24 A. That's correct.\n25 Q. All right. But there are also transactions that can occur\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 on a public blockchain but that are off-chain, right?\n2 A. Not to my knowledge.\n3 Q. So just to be clear, is it possible to have transactions in\n4 cryptocurrency that occur——\n5 MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation. He\n6 asked if it's possible.\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, we had extensive testimony\n8 about this on direct.\n9 THE COURT: You may answer.\n10 Q. So it's true, isn't it, that you can have transactions that\n11 occur in cryptocurrency that are off blockchain, right?\n12 A. No, that's incorrect.\n13 Q. Okay. Now if you have——well, let's put it this way: Is\n14 there such thing as a private blockchain?\n15 A. Yes.\n16 Q. Okay. And you testified about that, right?\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. And for example, you worked with a blockchain project that\n19 was in the health care industry?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. Is that an example of one where it would be a private\n22 blockchain?\n23 A. It would be.\n24 Q. Okay. So it's not open to the public; it can't be seen by\n25 anyone; you have to be invited to enter as a participant on the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 blockchain in order to see what's happening.\n2 A. Yes.\n3 Q. Okay. And are you familiar with JPM Coin?\n4 A. Is that JPMorgan you're referring to?\n5 Q. Yes.\n6 A. Yes.\n7 Q. And is that another example of a private blockchain, or\n8 token that trades on a private blockchain?\n9 A. I believe so.\n10 Q. Okay. Now these private blockchains, the transactions\n11 still occur on the chain even though not everybody can see them\n12 from outside, right?\n13 A. Correct. There's privacy involved.\n14 Q. Okay. And those tokens that trade are still\n15 cryptocurrencies, right?\n16 A. Correct.\n17 Q. Now do you know what I mean if I say a centralized\n18 cryptocurrency exchange?\n19 A. I do.\n20 Q. Okay. And what is that? Just explain that.\n21 A. A centralized cryptocurrency exchange is where the exchange\n22 holds the users' keys, and a key is to a wallet, so essentially\n23 they hold the crypto for them.\n24 Q. Okay. So all of the exchange's——withdrawn.\n25 All of the customers' crypto is held in the exchange's\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 wallets, right?\n2 A. Yes, that's true.\n3 Q. Okay. And now is it typical for centralized exchanges to\n4 have off-chain transactions?\n5 A. No.\n6 Q. So let's talk about——are you familiar with Coinbase?\n7 A. I am.\n8 Q. Okay. So when Coinbase facilitates a trade between two\n9 customers, are all of those transactions recorded on a\n10 blockchain, as you understand it?\n11 A. Yes, they would be.\n12 Q. All of the transactions recorded on the blockchain?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.\n15 Q. So to your understanding, centralized exchanges don't use\n16 internal mechanisms to match orders, correct?\n17 MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.\n18 MR. SCHIRICK: That's a different question.\n19 THE COURT: Sustained.\n20 Q. Okay. Now are there reasons why an exchange and users may\n21 want transactions to happen off a chain?\n22 MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation. Your\n23 Honor——\n24 THE COURT: You may answer.\n25 A. Could you repeat, counsel.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Sure. Are there reasons why users may want transactions in\n2 cryptocurrency to happen off-chain?\n3 A. I couldn't——I couldn't think of any.\n4 Q. Okay. Maybe I'll suggest some to you and you can let me\n5 know if they make sense.\n6 Do off-chain transactions settle more quickly than\n7 on-chain transactions, typically?\n8 A. Depends on the network congestion at the time.\n9 Q. Sure. But with Ethereum, for example. Ethereum can be\n10 slipped sometimes, right? That's just a——\n11 A. Well, the most recent upgrade has eliminated most of that.\n12 Q. Let me just——\n13 MR. HORTON: Objection. He's got to let the witness\n14 answer the question.\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: I hadn't finished my question.\n16 THE COURT: You have to let him answer before the next\n17 question.\n18 MR. SCHIRICK: I believe the witness started talking\n19 before I ended my question; that's all. But it's fine. We can\n20 move on.\n21 Mr. Brown, we just have to wait for each other to\n22 finish.\n23 THE WITNESS: Sorry, counsel.\n24 MR. SCHIRICK: No problem. I apologize too.\n25 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. So my question again was: Is one reason that off-chain\n2 transactions might be preferable is because they settle more\n3 quickly?\n4 A. I guess you could make that case.\n5 THE COURT: So I don't want you to guess. If you\n6 know, you can say yes or no or you can say \"I don't know\" or \"I\n7 don't remember,\" something like that.\n8 THE WITNESS: All right.\n9 Q. It's a possibility, right?\n10 THE COURT: No, I'm not asking him to speculate.\n11 Don't speculate.\n12 A. Can you repeat the question again, please.\n13 Q. Sure. Is one reason that participants in a transaction may\n14 want to settle off-chain, they want to conduct transactions off\n15 a chain in crypto because it settles faster?\n16 MR. HORTON: Object to the form of the question, your\n17 Honor.\n18 THE COURT: I'll allow the question.\n19 A. I don't agree with that. Even——even something, what you're\n20 referring——\n21 Q. Okay.\n22 A. Okay. I don't agree. I don't agree.\n23 Q. Are you familiar with something called gas?\n24 A. Yes.\n25 Q. Okay. And is gas the fee that one has to pay in order to\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 use a public blockchain?\n2 A. No. Gas is the fee for the Ethereum public blockchain.\n3 Q. Okay. Fine. So is one reason that people may want to have\n4 off-chain transactions because they are less expensive to\n5 settle because you don't have to pay gas?\n6 MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation.\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: It's his understanding, your Honor.\n8 THE COURT: I'll allow the question.\n9 A. That's true.\n10 Q. Okay. Now in fact, a significant amount of cryptocurrency\n11 transactions today happen on centralized exchanges, right?\n12 A. Right.\n13 Q. Okay. And viewed from the outside, is it your\n14 understanding that centralized exchanges have a number of\n15 wallets in which they hold customers' crypto?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. And that they don't necessarily have a separate wallet for\n18 every customer, right?\n19 A. Yes.\n20 Q. Right. The customer may have their——I see your hesitation\n21 so let's get there. So the customer may have his or her, its\n22 own wallet, right?\n23 A. Yes.\n24 Q. But the exchange itself has its wallets, and for tokens\n25 that it custodies, the exchange custodies, they hold them in\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 those wallets, right?\n2 MR. HORTON: Objection to the testifying, your Honor.\n3 THE COURT: I'll allow the question.\n4 A. Correct.\n5 Q. Okay. And so when there is a transaction, say, between two\n6 users on Coinbase, it's true, isn't it, that those tokens that\n7 the users want to exchange may reside in the same exchange\n8 wallet?\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. Okay. In that scenario, were those two customers to engage\n11 in a transaction, you could not see that transaction happen\n12 from the outside, right?\n13 A. That is not true.\n14 Q. You could see into the exchange's wallet, is your\n15 testimony?\n16 THE COURT: Sustained. Asked and answered.\n17 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay, your Honor.\n18 Q. Can you tell me how one can see inside Coinbase's wallets.\n19 A. Any transaction made on Ethereum blockchain, whether it's\n20 what you're referring to, Coinbase or any level two, is still\n21 broadcast on the public blockchain.\n22 Q. Now remember, I just want to make sure that we're clear.\n23 The question that I asked you before was whether, if two users\n24 whose tokens are held in a single wallet, single exchange\n25 wallet, want to engage in a transaction. That's what I'm\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 talking about. Does that make sense?\n2 A. Can you repeat it again.\n3 Q. Yes, sir. So if you have two users on an exchange, on a\n4 centralized exchange, and the exchange's wallet holds both\n5 users' tokens, and those users engage in a transaction——are you\n6 with me so far? Does that make sense?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. Okay. You cannot see into that wallet when that\n9 transaction happens, right? You cannot see into the exchange's\n10 wallet.\n11 MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: He asked me to clarify, your Honor.\n13 I'm just trying to clarify.\n14 THE COURT: You may answer.\n15 A. It sounds true.\n16 Q. Right. So if you have transactions that are happening on a\n17 centralized exchange, it is the case that sometimes you can't\n18 see those transactions because they happen inside a wallet, not\n19 across the blockchain.\n20 A. Fair enough.\n21 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.\n22 Now let's just go back to your work history here for a\n23 second and talk about the Himalaya Exchange.\n24 So I believe you testified on direct that you started\n25 work in June 2020; is that right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Yes.\n2 Q. Okay. And this was during the pandemic, as everybody\n3 knows. Right?\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. And you were at home, stuck at home like the rest of us?\n6 A. I was.\n7 Q. Okay. And now at that time the crypto and blockchain\n8 sectors were pretty hot, is that fair to say? Popular?\n9 A. Yeah, that's fair to say.\n10 Q. Enjoying some media and press, fair to say?\n11 A. Yeah, at that point.\n12 Q. Yeah. Okay. And is it also fair to say that you felt like\n13 you had a lot of potential job opportunities around that time?\n14 A. Yeah, that's a fair point.\n15 Q. Right. And I mean, do you recall telling the government\n16 when you met with them that your phone was ringing off the hook\n17 around this point in time?\n18 A. My phone rings off the hook.\n19 Q. At this point in time. I have no doubt.\n20 A. All the time.\n21 Q. But at this point in time. At this point in time, just to\n22 be clear.\n23 A. Yes.\n24 Q. Okay. And then you had, you testified on direct, a first\n25 interview with someone named Yvette Wang, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Yes.\n2 Q. Okay. And fair to say this was sort of an initial\n3 interview with Ms. Wang?\n4 A. It was.\n5 Q. And did you get the sense that Ms. Wang knew anything about\n6 blockchain or crypto?\n7 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Asking his impression.\n9 THE COURT: You can answer that question, yeah.\n10 A. I didn't get the impression she knew a lot about blockchain\n11 or crypto.\n12 Q. Okay. It was just sort of a general interview, right?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. And it was relatively short?\n15 A. It was probably half an hour. There was another gentleman\n16 involved in that interview too.\n17 Q. Sure. And was that one call that you had with Ms. Wang and\n18 the other gentleman or were there two?\n19 A. They were both on the same call.\n20 Q. And it was a single call.\n21 A. Yes.\n22 Q. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for that.\n23 And the person who was on that call was the chief\n24 technology officer of GTV?\n25 A. Yes.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Okay. And did that person ask you some questions about\n2 blockchain?\n3 A. He did.\n4 Q. Okay. Now following that call you had, I believe you\n5 testified on direct, an interview with Mr. Je, right?\n6 A. Yes.\n7 Q. Okay. And now there were two interviews with Mr. Je,\n8 right?\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. Okay.\n11 A. Yes, I believe.\n12 Q. Right. And the first interview happened fairly shortly\n13 after the first interview with Ms. Wang, right?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. Okay. And you took those interviews via video call, I\n16 believe you testified.\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. Okay. And the scope of the job, as you understood it, was\n19 that you were interviewing for blockchain architect?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. And the role wasn't for a CEO role.\n22 A. It was not.\n23 Q. Right. Okay. And now can you just tell us a little bit\n24 about what you discussed with Mr. Je during that first call.\n25 A. I went over my job history and kind of dug into the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 DTT——DTCC component of it.\n2 Q. Okay. And did he seem particularly interested in your work\n3 at the DTCC?\n4 A. He did.\n5 Q. Okay. And you spoke in depth with him about blockchain and\n6 finance?\n7 A. Yes. I crushed the interview.\n8 Q. As history shows.\n9 And you had the impression that William Je had a lot\n10 of experience in finance, right?\n11 A. Tremendous amount.\n12 Q. Right. And you found him pretty impressive, I think you\n13 said, right?\n14 A. Very impressive.\n15 Q. And knowledgeable, right?\n16 A. Very knowledgeable.\n17 Q. Okay. Now you didn't talk to William Je during the first\n18 interview about GTV, did you?\n19 A. I did not.\n20 Q. Right. That didn't come up, right?\n21 A. I don't recall it coming up.\n22 Q. Yeah. You were talking about the idea of an exchange.\n23 A. I was pitching the chain.\n24 Q. Sure. A crypto chain?\n25 A. Yeah.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. And the tokens, right?\n2 A. Yeah.\n3 Q. Okay. And one of the tokens that you talked about was I\n4 think what we've been referring to here today as a stablecoin,\n5 right?\n6 A. Yes.\n7 Q. All right. And that's basically sort of like a crypto\n8 dollar; is that a fair——\n9 A. That's a good analogy.\n10 Q. ——analogy? Okay. And the idea was for that crypto dollar\n11 to be backed by cash, right?\n12 A. Yes.\n13 Q. Okay. And eventually——and we'll get to this later,\n14 but——eventually that becomes HDO, right?\n15 A. Yes.\n16 Q. Okay. And then the second token that you talked to him\n17 about was what people referred to as a trading coin.\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. All right. And that is what eventually becomes HCN, right?\n20 A. Correct.\n21 Q. Okay. And did you talk to Mr. Je about a longer-term\n22 vision for the exchange too during these interviews?\n23 A. I didn't.\n24 Q. Yeah. And what was his longer-term vision, to your\n25 understanding?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. His envision was to be the biggest exchange in the world.\n2 Q. Okay. And was he also trying to, as you understood it,\n3 create an ecosystem, so to speak?\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. Okay. And to recruit merchants who would accept these\n6 coins for payment for various goods and services, right?\n7 A. That is correct.\n8 Q. Okay. And did that strike you as a pretty grand vision at\n9 the time?\n10 A. Yeah, I thought it was cool.\n11 Q. Okay. Now is it fair to say these two interviews with\n12 Mr. Je had a lot more substance to them than the initial\n13 interview with Ms. Wang?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. Okay. And you felt like the interviews with Mr. Je were\n16 sort of the ones that counted, right?\n17 A. I felt they all counted.\n18 Q. Okay. Did you feel like you had to impress Mr. Je?\n19 A. Yeah, you have to impress anyone when you're trying to get\n20 a job.\n21 Q. And you said before you crushed it, right?\n22 A. Killed it.\n23 Q. Yeah, killed it. Killed it. So you felt like you were out\n24 to impress him; fair to say?\n25 A. Just——\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n2 A. Just doing what I do.\n3 Q. We get it. We get it.\n4 Now did you have the impression that Mr. Je was the\n5 decision-maker as to who to hire?\n6 A. I did.\n7 Q. Yeah. And do you know if he was interviewing any other\n8 candidates?\n9 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n10 MR. SCHIRICK: To his knowledge.\n11 THE COURT: You may answer.\n12 A. None that I was aware of.\n13 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. So if we could just briefly\n14 please pull up the government exhibit that's in evidence, 3419.\n15 Q. And you see this document, Mr. Brown?\n16 A. I do, counsel.\n17 Q. And you were shown this on direct, right?\n18 A. Could you repeat that.\n19 Q. You were shown this document on your direct testimony——\n20 A. Yes, yes.\n21 Q. ——right? Okay. And this was the offer letter that came\n22 from GTV, right?\n23 A. Right.\n24 Q. Okay. Now before you accepted the job, did you look up\n25 Mr. Guo?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. I don't believe I did.\n2 Q. Okay. So at the time you had no idea what Guo Media was,\n3 right?\n4 A. Well, can I retract that. I did do a little bit of\n5 research, yeah, typical quick scan.\n6 Q. Okay. And you believed that these companies——that GTV was\n7 associated with Mr. Guo, right?\n8 A. Right.\n9 Q. Okay. Now I believe you testified that you saw your job as\n10 part of the same job——withdrawn.\n11 ——that you saw your job at the Himalaya Exchange as\n12 part of the same job as the GTV job, right?\n13 A. Well, I was hired by GTV.\n14 Q. Right. Did you ever talk to Yvette Wang again?\n15 A. I did one other time.\n16 Q. And what was the purpose of that?\n17 A. She was calling to push along our development. They were\n18 getting very frustrated that we weren't delivering on time, as\n19 I stated previously in my testimony.\n20 Q. Okay. So that call had nothing to do with GTV, right?\n21 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n22 THE COURT: Sustained.\n23 Q. Okay. What is Guo Media? I'm sorry. Let me take that\n24 back.\n25 At this point in time, in June of 2020, what's your\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 understanding of what Guo Media is?\n2 A. Just a large group of——of social media companies and of\n3 publications, a lot of it politically driven.\n4 Q. You understood that in June of 2020?\n5 A. Yeah, I think so.\n6 Q. And then how was Guo Media different from GTV, again, as\n7 you understood it in June of 2020?\n8 A. I didn't know. I don't know that.\n9 Q. You don't know.\n10 A. No.\n11 Q. Can you name an employee of Guo Media?\n12 A. The first interviewer that I had, yeah.\n13 Q. Besides——do you know that she was employed by Guo Media?\n14 A. Or the——the technology——the head of tech, yeah.\n15 Q. Okay. So besides the two people that you spoke to, can you\n16 name another employee of Guo Media?\n17 A. I cannot.\n18 Q. Can you name another employee of GTV?\n19 A. I can't name them, but I've——I've been on a couple of video\n20 calls with them later on.\n21 Q. Okay. So just to be clear, your service for the Himalaya\n22 Exchange was different than, and separate from, Guo News and\n23 Guo Media, right?\n24 MR. HORTON: Objection. It's a compound question.\n25 MR. SCHIRICK: I'll take it piece by piece.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 THE COURT: Okay.\n2 Q. So just to be clear, your work for the Himalaya Exchange\n3 was separate from GTV, right?\n4 A. I wouldn't say that. At the beginning, I was employed by\n5 GTV. I talked to their——to their PR person——I mean, their\n6 human resource person.\n7 Q. Mr. ——\n8 A. Quite a bit.\n9 Q. I just want you to listen to my question, okay?\n10 A. Okay.\n11 Q. Apart from interviewing with people who you believed to\n12 work at GTV, okay, did you ever work with anyone else at GTV?\n13 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n14 THE COURT: You may answer.\n15 A. I did. I worked with human resource.\n16 Q. In connection with your——\n17 A. With GTV.\n18 Q. Let me finish. This is the part where we have to let each\n19 other finish, okay?\n20 A. Sorry, counsel.\n21 Q. So you worked with human resources to get set up to be paid\n22 by GTV?\n23 A. That's correct.\n24 Q. Okay. Other than that, did you work with GTV at all?\n25 A. No.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Okay. Same question for Guo Media. Other than initial\n2 administrative setup stuff, did you do any work with Guo Media?\n3 A. I did not.\n4 Q. Okay. So now we get to the question. Your work at the\n5 Himalaya Exchange was separate from GTV, right?\n6 A. Correct.\n7 Q. And it was separate from Guo Media, whatever that is,\n8 right?\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. Okay. Now you testified on direct, I believe, that you\n11 never met your——met in person, I should say——your work\n12 colleagues from Himalaya; is that right?\n13 A. Right.\n14 Q. Okay. Now isn't it true that at the time Himalaya was a\n15 startup company?\n16 A. That's right.\n17 Q. Okay. And it had employees at that point in time——again,\n18 we're just focusing on, you know, June 2020——it had employees\n19 who were all over the world, right?\n20 A. Well, in June of 2020, there were only three of us, but\n21 yes, they were all scattered over the world.\n22 Q. Scattered over the world, right? And as we covered before,\n23 this was during COVID, right?\n24 A. That's right.\n25 Q. Okay. And the folks who were scattered over the world,\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 just to cover off the geography, some were in the UK, right?\n2 A. Right.\n3 Q. Some were in Australia?\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. Is that fair?\n6 A. Fair.\n7 Q. You were in the U.S.?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. And some were other places, right?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. Okay. So for the period when COVID was still with us,\n12 people didn't travel all that much, right?\n13 A. No.\n14 Q. Right. And, you know, you didn't think that these people\n15 that you worked with for two and a half years were, like, not\n16 real people, right?\n17 A. No, they were real people.\n18 Q. They were real people, right? Doing real work.\n19 A. Yes.\n20 Q. Okay. So just to be clear, just because you didn't meet\n21 them in person, that didn't mean that they weren't real people\n22 doing real work, right?\n23 A. That's correct.\n24 Q. Okay. Now you also testified that GTV paid your salary, I\n25 believe from June to December of 2020, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Correct.\n2 Q. Okay. And then shortly after that you started to be paid\n3 by Himalaya, right?\n4 A. After I was kicked to the curb by GTV.\n5 Q. Well, we'll get to that. And let's just keep it to the\n6 facts, right?\n7 The question was: After you left GTV, you were being\n8 paid by Himalaya, right?\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. Okay. And do you know whether Hamilton or Himalaya\n11 reimbursed GTV for its payment of your salary?\n12 A. I do not know that, counsel.\n13 Q. Okay. Now when you started at Himalaya——just to reset now\n14 and go back to that——when you started at Himalaya, again, in\n15 June of 2020, you knew to report to Mr. Je, right?\n16 A. Right.\n17 Q. Okay. That was, like, clear to you off the bat.\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. Okay. And because you had initial calls with him, right?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. Right. And you had some Skype messages with him?\n22 A. Yes.\n23 Q. Okay. And at that time, as I think you alluded to before,\n24 the Himalaya also hired some other people, right?\n25 A. That's——that's correct.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. And some other senior people, like you, right?\n2 A. Yes, but they weren't Himalaya employees.\n3 Q. Okay.\n4 A. Per se.\n5 Q. We'll get to that.\n6 Now at the time that you started working for the\n7 exchange, it wasn't called the Himalaya Exchange yet, right?\n8 A. I'm not sure that's true. I believe it was called the\n9 Himalaya Exchange by the time I had——I had left GTV and gone\n10 and worked there.\n11 Q. Okay. Do you recall telling the government in your\n12 meetings with them that you had some input into naming Himalaya\n13 Exchange?\n14 A. I did not have input into naming Himalaya Exchange, but the\n15 coins I did.\n16 Q. How about——fair enough.\n17 And who is Marios Mamzeris?\n18 A. He was the chief operating officer.\n19 Q. Okay. And was Marios also someone who was hired around the\n20 same time that you were?\n21 A. Yeah. I was the assistant——yes.\n22 Q. Yes is fine.\n23 A. Yes.\n24 Q. Okay. And he was a blockchain consultant, right?\n25 A. He was.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. And he eventually became, as we just covered, the chief\n2 operating officer.\n3 A. That's correct.\n4 Q. And he was based in Greece, right?\n5 A. That's right.\n6 Q. Okay. And you all worked remotely together.\n7 A. That's true.\n8 Q. Okay. And then there was also someone——and you may need to\n9 help me with this——named Di, D-I?\n10 A. Yes. Di, Di.\n11 Q. I'm sorry. Di. And was that Di first or last name?\n12 A. That was his first name.\n13 Q. And what was his last name?\n14 A. I can't recall.\n15 Q. Okay.\n16 A. Unfortunately.\n17 Q. And how long did you work with Di?\n18 A. The whole duration.\n19 Q. For two and a half years.\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. Okay. And he was the head of IT?\n22 A. He was.\n23 Q. Okay. And again, he was also hired around the same time.\n24 A. I'm not sure that's true. I believe he had been working\n25 for William long before that.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. He was brought into the project around the same time,\n2 right?\n3 A. He was before me, a little before me.\n4 Q. Okay. But——\n5 A. Yes.\n6 Q. Within a couple months of you joining, right?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. Okay. And then was there a compliance person who also\n9 joined around the same time?\n10 A. The compliance person would have been a month or two later.\n11 Q. Okay. Fair enough. I mean, within a couple of months I\n12 would consider around the same time, if that makes sense to\n13 you.\n14 A. Fair.\n15 Q. Okay. Now when you came on to join the exchange project,\n16 was it your understanding that the project already had obtained\n17 a license, in Australia?\n18 A. I'm not sure if it had already obtained it, but it was\n19 obtained, you know, right away.\n20 Q. Sure. So it was either obtained or in the process of\n21 obtaining it.\n22 A. Correct.\n23 Q. And ultimately it did get the license in Australia.\n24 A. That's right.\n25 Q. And what was the license for?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. The license was for——for the exchange to conduct business\n2 as an exchange in Australia.\n3 Q. Okay. And as I think we covered before, there was also a\n4 compliance person who was based in Australia, right?\n5 A. Yes.\n6 Q. All right. But ultimately the exchange decided to move\n7 away from the idea of operating out of Australia because of tax\n8 implications; is that your understanding?\n9 A. That's correct.\n10 Q. Okay. Now let's talk about Hamilton briefly.\n11 Now you became familiar with Hamilton after starting\n12 your job in June of 2020, right?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. Okay. And you understood that Hamilton was an investment\n15 firm; is that fair?\n16 A. Yes, that's fair.\n17 Q. And it had a consulting wing, as people say, to it?\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. Okay. And that both of those were started by Mr. Je,\n20 right?\n21 A. Correct.\n22 Q. And he was the owner of both of those.\n23 A. The UBO, yes.\n24 Q. UBO. Okay. I wasn't going to use it, but you used it, so\n25 we'll go with it. So he was the UBO.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Now Hamilton had, in your understanding, at this time,\n2 a pretty big office in the UK, right?\n3 A. They eventually got an office, yes.\n4 Q. Okay. And as Hamilton grew, they started to put more\n5 people in place, right?\n6 A. Right.\n7 Q. And more people in place who were working on the exchange\n8 project, right?\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. Now I believe you testified earlier that it was hard for\n11 Hamilton and Mr. Je to get people to come into the office\n12 during the pandemic, right?\n13 A. To get talented people.\n14 Q. Right. And Mr. Je wanted people in the office, right?\n15 A. Yes, that was a mandate.\n16 Q. Okay. And as you said, as a result, in your view, you felt\n17 like perhaps the exchange project didn't get some of the best\n18 people they could have gotten because of that, you know,\n19 requirement that people come into the office.\n20 A. True.\n21 Q. Okay. Now again, even at this stage, in the second half of\n22 2020 now, just to put down a time marker, still fair to say\n23 that the exchange project is in startup mode, right?\n24 A. Yes.\n25 Q. Okay. And there was a lot of excitement in startup mode;\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 folks were excited about trying to build this product, right;\n2 fair to say?\n3 A. That's fair.\n4 Q. Right? A lot of passion?\n5 A. A lot of passion.\n6 Q. Right. And a lot to do.\n7 A. Could you repeat that.\n8 Q. And a lot to do.\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. Right. But especially given the big goals that we talked\n11 about before that Mr. Je had, right?\n12 A. Right.\n13 Q. And it sort of felt overwhelming sometimes, fair to say?\n14 A. I wasn't overwhelmed.\n15 Q. Okay. Now you said that you never met Mr. Je in person on\n16 direct, right?\n17 A. Correct.\n18 Q. Okay. And again, this is during the time of COVID. That\n19 covers a fair part of the period that you worked there, right?\n20 A. Right.\n21 Q. Okay. Now when you joined the exchange——and again, I'm\n22 focusing on let's say the sort of back half of 2020 into maybe\n23 early 2021——is it fair to say that your impression was that\n24 there was a lot of money being spent to stand up this project?\n25 A. Yes.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. And can you just give us some examples of that.\n2 A. Our——well, we had a huge payroll, we had huge tech bills\n3 and huge cloud bills, and we were developing data centers.\n4 Q. Okay. And you had outside vendors for various things as\n5 well?\n6 A. Yes, quite a few.\n7 Q. Okay. And I believe you told the government that you\n8 thought the IT spending was in the millions of dollars, just to\n9 get things stood up, right?\n10 A. It was.\n11 Q. Okay. And at this point you understood that the money for\n12 these startup costs was coming from Mr. Je, right?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. And in early——I'm sorry. Withdrawn.\n15 In 2020 and early 2021, the exchange hadn't sold any\n16 tokens to anybody, right, prior to April of 2021?\n17 A. Correct.\n18 Q. The exchange hadn't raised any money, as far as you knew,\n19 right?\n20 A. As far as I knew.\n21 Q. Right. And they didn't sell any HCN during that period?\n22 A. No.\n23 Q. They didn't sell any HDO during that period?\n24 A. No.\n25 Q. Okay. So pretty clear to you that during this time the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 money that was spent to build the exchange was not money from\n2 investors.\n3 A. Yes.\n4 Q. And not money from token purchasers.\n5 A. Yes.\n6 Q. Or anyone else, as far as you knew.\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. Okay. And I believe you told the government——am I\n9 correct——that it was something of——\n10 THE COURT: You had testified that there were no token\n11 purchases; is that correct?\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: At that point in time, your Honor.\n13 THE WITNESS: At that point in time.\n14 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.\n15 Q. And it was something of a——withdrawn.\n16 You and your colleagues would talk about how much\n17 money was being spent on the exchange, right, to stand it up?\n18 MR. HORTON: Objection. Hearsay.\n19 THE COURT: You may answer.\n20 A. Yeah, yeah, a few of us——a few of us talked about\n21 exorbitant expenses, yes.\n22 Q. Yeah. Okay. So let's just briefly talk about the\n23 exchange's leadership team.\n24 So you have Mr. Je, right, who's the UBO?\n25 A. Yes.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. And sort of, you know, at this point de facto head of the\n2 operation, right? Sort of like, titles aside, he's calling the\n3 shots, right?\n4 A. Head honcho.\n5 Q. Yeah, sure. Okay. And then you have David Fallon, who is\n6 the CEO at Hamilton, right? Is that your understanding?\n7 A. Not sure about I knew CEO. I knew he was a fund manager.\n8 Q. Okay. Fair enough. But he's a senior figure at Hamilton——\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. ——fair? And maybe one manager under him.\n11 A. Yes.\n12 Q. And Tim Clark; who was Tim Clark?\n13 A. Yes, he was the——he was the first CTO.\n14 Q. Okay. You weren't a fan of his, right?\n15 A. Not of his skill set. I liked him as a person though.\n16 Q. Sure. Okay. But at some point——well, withdrawn.\n17 At this point, at this point in time——again, focusing\n18 on late 2020, early 2021——Tim is the chief technology officer,\n19 right?\n20 A. That's right.\n21 Q. Okay. And later he gets replaced by somebody else, right?\n22 A. Right.\n23 Q. Okay. And then Tom O'Leary; who is Tom O'Leary?\n24 A. He was the chief marketing officer that was hired during\n25 that time.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. And then we talked about Marios Mamzeris. And he was the\n2 COO, right?\n3 A. Yes.\n4 Q. Okay. And then how about Azeem Bashir?\n5 A. He was the chief security officer.\n6 Q. Okay. So chief information officer, chief security\n7 officer?\n8 A. Yes, yes.\n9 Q. And who's Joe Wang?\n10 A. Joe Wang. I'm not sure I recall that name.\n11 Q. Okay. How about Hesop (ph) Chin?\n12 A. He was the compliance officer from Australia.\n13 Q. So that's the person we referred to before.\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. And Hesop was the chief compliance officer for the\n16 exchange, right?\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. Okay. And then how about Ehsan Haque?\n19 A. He was the lead counsel at that time.\n20 Q. Okay. And now I think we just listed roughly eight or nine\n21 fairly senior people who were working at the exchange during\n22 this period of time; fair to say?\n23 A. Well, they were working for Hamilton consulting.\n24 Q. Right. They were spending a lot of their time working on\n25 the exchange, right, because those were the people you were\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 working with?\n2 A. That's true.\n3 Q. Right. So fair to say that there were eight or nine senior\n4 people who were working at the exchange during that period of\n5 time? On the exchange? Forgive me.\n6 A. In the spring. There weren't that many in the fall.\n7 Q. Are we talking, I'm sorry, 2020——\n8 A. Yeah, during the first——it took a little while to onboard\n9 all that, all those executives, so it was probably January of\n10 2021 before everyone was in place there.\n11 Q. Okay. Fair. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification.\n12 So in the fall and sort of winter of 2020, there's\n13 still this gearing up that's happening with the exchange.\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. The exchange is still hiring talent and hiring senior\n16 people, right?\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. Okay. And in your recollection, that kind of comes\n19 together in roughly January of 2021.\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. Okay. And then at its peak, how many people did Hamilton\n22 have working on the exchange, approximately?\n23 A. Well, there were 200 employees——\n24 Q. Okay.\n25 A. ——in London at one point.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Right. So isn't it true that the exchange——withdrawn.\n2 Understanding that the consulting wing of Hamilton was\n3 the former employer of some of these people, okay? We accept\n4 that. But those people were working on the exchange project;\n5 is that fair?\n6 A. That is fair, counsel.\n7 Q. A fair description? Okay. So understanding that, is it\n8 fair to say that the exchange employed multiple people in\n9 finance who were working on the exchange?\n10 A. That's fair.\n11 Q. And multiple people in IT who were working on the exchange?\n12 A. Multiple, multiple.\n13 Q. Yes, correct. And multiple, multiple developers, right?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. Okay. And now the exchange also had a 24/7 customer\n16 service line, right?\n17 A. That is correct.\n18 Q. Okay. And when does that come in?\n19 A. That was early on too, you know, probably about that same\n20 period. Maybe lagged a couple weeks to get everyone in place.\n21 Q. Okay. Fair. The exchange didn't really have any\n22 customers, which we'll get to in a second, until kind of later\n23 in 2021, right?\n24 A. Yeah, it was a training and onboarding period.\n25 Q. So the exchange was getting ready and getting prepared to\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 have a customer service function when it anticipated having\n2 customers.\n3 A. Yes.\n4 Q. Okay. And that was, again, a 24/7 operation, right?\n5 A. It was.\n6 Q. And it wasn't even outsourced, right?\n7 A. No.\n8 Q. And they were employed directly by the exchange, or\n9 Hamilton, right?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. And the customer service folks spoke both Mandarin and\n12 English, right?\n13 A. The majority, right.\n14 Q. And fair to say you found that pretty impressive?\n15 A. I did.\n16 Q. Yeah.\n17 Okay. Now let's just talk a little bit about the\n18 day-to-day work. And you touched on this I believe on direct a\n19 little bit, but you had daily conference calls; is that fair?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. Okay. And those conference calls started pretty early for\n22 you, right?\n23 A. 7 a.m.\n24 Q. Yeah. 7 a.m., 'cause a lot of other folks were across the\n25 pond and a few hours ahead.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Yes.\n2 Q. Time zonewise.\n3 A. Right.\n4 Q. And sometimes you had one-on-one meetings with different of\n5 your senior colleagues?\n6 A. I did.\n7 Q. Okay. And sometimes did you have one-on-one meetings with\n8 William?\n9 A. Not really.\n10 Q. Okay. Well, did you have meetings with William where there\n11 were like one or two other people there?\n12 A. Yes.\n13 Q. Okay. He wasn't alone often in meetings; he had people who\n14 came with him, right?\n15 A. Right, right.\n16 Q. But understanding that, you did have lots of interaction\n17 with William during this period, right?\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that your weekly schedule was\n20 made up of a Monday call that was a sort of all employees\n21 meeting?\n22 A. Yes.\n23 Q. And either William or Azeem would sort of run that meeting?\n24 A. That's correct.\n25 Q. And then on Tuesdays, Tuesdays were for tech meetings,\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 right?\n2 A. As I recall, yes.\n3 Q. Okay. And that was run by the chief technology officer,\n4 right?\n5 A. Yes.\n6 Q. And you would have, you know, depending on the time,\n7 anywhere from between sort of 20 to 30 people on those calls,\n8 right, Tuesday calls?\n9 A. No. Probably closer to 10 or 15.\n10 Q. Okay. 10 or 15 people on the Tuesday calls.\n11 And then on Wednesdays, you would have operations\n12 meetings, right?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. And those were run by the COO of the exchange, right?\n15 A. Correct.\n16 Q. Okay. And about how many people attended those, on\n17 average?\n18 A. That's about the same as tech.\n19 Q. Okay. And then Thursdays you had finance meetings, right?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. All right. And then on Fridays you had stakeholder\n22 meetings, right?\n23 A. That's right.\n24 Q. And that was the phrase that was used to describe the sort\n25 of more senior group of executives, including you.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. That's true, but most of the——most of the stakeholders were\n2 involved in all the meetings.\n3 Q. Yeah, fair enough, but you had kind of a separate call——\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. ——to a smaller, more senior group.\n6 A. Correct.\n7 Q. Okay. Now that's an awful lot of people working on this\n8 project, isn't it?\n9 A. It is.\n10 Q. All right. And do you recall——and I believe you, again,\n11 may have touched on this on direct, that you filled out what\n12 I'll just call time sheets? I don't know if that's the right\n13 word. But do you know what I'm referring to?\n14 A. I do. I do.\n15 Q. Okay. And you sort of, in a chart format, you know, listed\n16 kind of what you had done for the weeks of the month, for the\n17 entire month, right?\n18 A. That's right.\n19 Q. In summary.\n20 A. Correct.\n21 Q. Okay. And that was kind of the way that you billed the\n22 exchange so that you could be paid for your work.\n23 A. That's right. That's right.\n24 Q. All right. And what was your salary during this period of\n25 time?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. I believe I started at 180,000.\n2 Q. Okay. Now let's just talk a little bit about the sort of\n3 evolution of the exchange from a regulatory perspective.\n4 We talked before about the exchange initially thinking\n5 that it might operate with an Australia license, right?\n6 A. That's right.\n7 Q. Okay. But that was abandoned, as we discussed before,\n8 right?\n9 A. Right.\n10 Q. Okay. And then there was a pivot to potentially operating\n11 out of the British Virgin Islands, right?\n12 A. That's right.\n13 Q. We're going to get to the surfing. I promise.\n14 A. Okay.\n15 Q. I want to hear more about that.\n16 Now that decision to pivot to the BVI, do you have an\n17 understanding of why that was?\n18 A. I believe it was a jurisdiction where we could issue the\n19 coin without having a license at the time.\n20 Q. Okay. So it was favorable, from a regulatory point of\n21 view.\n22 A. It was.\n23 Q. Just more relaxed from a regulatory point of view.\n24 A. At the time, yes.\n25 Q. At the time, right. And so you actually were asked to\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 travel to the BVI.\n2 A. I was.\n3 Q. Okay. And to explore establishing an entity there, right?\n4 A. That's right.\n5 Q. And you actually hired lawyers down there, right?\n6 A. Yes.\n7 Q. Okay. And you made a recommendation as to who to hire,\n8 right?\n9 A. No, I did not make the recommendation.\n10 Q. Did you meet with the lawyers?\n11 A. I did.\n12 Q. Okay. And then there was this BVI sandbox application,\n13 right?\n14 A. Correct.\n15 Q. That you testified about on direct, right?\n16 A. Right.\n17 Q. Okay. And when was this, approximately, that you go down\n18 BVI to explore the BVI sandbox?\n19 A. I believe it would have been in the late spring or summer\n20 of 2021, but I don't recall exactly.\n21 Q. Okay. All right. Fair enough.\n22 But definitely 2021; it wasn't 2020.\n23 A. Yeah.\n24 Q. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough.\n25 Now I believe you also testified on direct that you\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 kind of did some prospecting for potential office space down in\n2 the BVI——\n3 A. Yes.\n4 Q. ——right? And you also looked for some telecom providers?\n5 A. Yeah, that's——yes, yes, I did.\n6 Q. Like data, internet service providers?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. Which one needs to run a crypto exchange, right?\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. And then you also spoke to people in the BVI FSC, right?\n11 A. Yes, yes.\n12 Q. And is that the Financial Services——\n13 A. Committee.\n14 Q. ——Committee?\n15 A. Or Commission. Yeah, one of those two.\n16 Q. Whatever; it's a regulator down on BVI.\n17 A. Right. It's a regulating body there.\n18 Q. Understood. Regulating body.\n19 And you spoke to them about that sandbox application,\n20 right?\n21 A. Yes.\n22 Q. And about how long were you down in the BVI?\n23 A. I would only go down for a couple weeks at a time, but I\n24 went back and forth a couple, few times.\n25 Q. Okay. Two times, more than two times?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. I think it——I think it was three total.\n2 Q. Three. Okay. And this sandbox application, that was\n3 because the BVI was sort of looking to attract innovative\n4 technologies and businesses in the islands——\n5 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n6 Q. ——to your understanding?\n7 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. Okay. And it was called a sandbox——again, asking for your\n10 understanding——sandbox is sort of a metaphor, right, for being\n11 able to play?\n12 A. Yeah.\n13 Q. Right?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. And you can play because the rules are a little bit more\n16 relaxed, as you described before.\n17 A. They are.\n18 Q. Right. Okay. And you discovered that in order to succeed\n19 on a BVI sandbox application, you had to have I think it was\n20 50 percent or so of your employees based on the islands?\n21 A. That's correct.\n22 Q. Right. And fair to say that that became something that was\n23 a little difficult to work with given where most of the folks\n24 for the exchange were located throughout the world?\n25 A. I'm not sure that's fair.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Well, in any event, it was something that you all found\n2 difficult to work with as a condition, right?\n3 MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.\n4 THE COURT: Sustained.\n5 MR. SCHIRICK: Did I ask that question? Okay.\n6 Q. In any event, you ended up and the exchange ended up\n7 abandoning the BVI effort, right?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. But it got, fair so say, to at least sort of——withdrawn.\n10 Would you say that it got to a mature stage as a\n11 possibility of where to run operations out of?\n12 A. That's a——\n13 MR. HORTON: Object to the form of the question.\n14 THE COURT: You can answer.\n15 A. That's a fair statement.\n16 Q. Okay. And there was significant resources invested in that\n17 effort, right?\n18 A. No. That's incorrect.\n19 Q. There weren't significant resources invested in it?\n20 MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.\n21 THE COURT: Sustained.\n22 Q. Okay. Did the exchange have to hire lawyers to work on the\n23 sandbox application?\n24 A. Yeah, they hired lawyers.\n25 Q. Okay. And they were paying you, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. They were paying me.\n2 Q. Okay. You don't consider that a significant investment, I\n3 guess?\n4 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n5 THE COURT: You may answer.\n6 A. I don't, because they weren't willing to pay the rent.\n7 Q. And by rent, you mean literally the——\n8 A. Yeah, they weren't willing to put a deposit down on the\n9 office.\n10 Q. Okay. All right. Fine. So they didn't want to put down\n11 the money for the office.\n12 So whatever the reason was, that didn't end up panning\n13 out, right?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. It would have been nice if it had.\n16 A. Much to my chagrin.\n17 Q. Yes. It would have been nice if it had.\n18 Now while you were down there, I think you said you\n19 worked on some other sort of side projects?\n20 A. I said that?\n21 Q. Let's try it this way. Did you work on any other side\n22 projects that were not exchange related when you were down in\n23 the BVI?\n24 A. Yeah, I did have a side project by that point.\n25 Q. Okay. And I believe you testified on direct that you were\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 really only working three or four hours a day for the exchange?\n2 A. That's fair.\n3 Q. Right. And you were spending the rest of the time, fair to\n4 say, either surfing or working on your side project, right?\n5 A. That's right.\n6 Q. Okay. Now after the exchange gives up——well, withdrawn.\n7 Can you kind of give us your best estimate as to when\n8 the decision is made to, you know, not do the BVI anymore.\n9 A. It was——I believe it was right after we got denied the\n10 sandbox application.\n11 Q. Right. Okay. And then there was another pivot, and this\n12 was to potentially move the exchange operations to Abu Dhabi,\n13 right?\n14 A. That's right, counsel.\n15 Q. Okay. And then the exchange started working on trying to\n16 get licensed in Abu Dhabi, right?\n17 A. Correct.\n18 Q. Okay. And this——withdrawn.\n19 Did Mr. Je ask you at any point whether you would be\n20 willing to move to the BVI if the exchange had successfully\n21 been able to locate in the BVI?\n22 A. He did.\n23 Q. He did. And you told him you were willing to do that,\n24 right?\n25 A. More than willing.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Sounds like it.\n2 And did Mr. Je also ask you at other times whether you\n3 would be willing to relocate for this job to other locations?\n4 A. He did.\n5 Q. Okay. And did he ask you if you'd be willing to relocate\n6 within the United States?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. And did he ask you whether you'd be willing to locate to\n9 Europe?\n10 A. No.\n11 Q. To the UK?\n12 A. No.\n13 Q. Okay. And at some point did he ask you whether you'd be\n14 willing to relocate to Abu Dhabi?\n15 A. He did.\n16 Q. Okay. And that's one you weren't willing to do, right?\n17 A. That's right.\n18 Q. Okay. Now what——\n19 MR. SCHIRICK: I'm sorry. If I could just have one\n20 moment, your Honor.\n21 Q. Okay. Now when it comes to Abu Dhabi, you had the\n22 impression that Mr. Je sort of felt comfortable there, right?\n23 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n24 Q. Like he knew the landscape?\n25 THE COURT: You may answer that, whether he felt\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 comfortable; whether, by observing him, you got the impression\n2 that he felt comfortable.\n3 A. I did.\n4 Q. Yeah. Like he sort of knew the landscape there?\n5 A. Knew the landscape and connected.\n6 Q. Right. Okay. And at this point in time——and we're talking\n7 about Abu Dhabi——it's sort of early fall 2021; is that fair?\n8 A. Early fall 2021. No, I——I believe that would have been a\n9 2022 thing.\n10 Q. Okay.\n11 A. I'm not sure of the dates though.\n12 Q. All right. Fair enough. It was sort of in the later\n13 stages of your time there; fair to say?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. Okay. Now I just want to talk a little bit about this\n16 credit system that was much discussed on direct.\n17 A. Okay.\n18 Q. Okay? Can you just tell me how the credit system worked.\n19 A. Sure. So a user would be onboarded onto the exchange, they\n20 would go through a compliance checklist, they would be accepted\n21 by the exchange, and then they would be asked to top up their\n22 account with——with dollar, and then they would purchase these\n23 credits with those.\n24 Q. Okay.\n25 A. And the credits would show in their account on their\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 dashboard.\n2 Q. Okay. Got it. Sorry. And I think you used the phrase\n3 \"top up\" there.\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. Now was there a reason that that phrase was used in\n6 particular?\n7 A. Yeah, it's an——it's a London term.\n8 Q. Sure. And was part of the reason that it was used, to your\n9 understanding, because the word \"deposit\" would connote a\n10 banking transaction, right?\n11 A. That's right.\n12 Q. Right. And so \"top up\" was a better way to put it, right?\n13 A. There was some discussion back and forth. We ended up with\n14 \"top up.\"\n15 Q. Okay. And so once the ex——once the——let's just call them\n16 dollars. Is that fair to say, they were almost always U.S.\n17 dollars that were used to top up accounts?\n18 A. That's right.\n19 Q. Okay. So once the dollars were put into an account, as I\n20 understand it——and you'll confirm this for me——the customer\n21 would receive a credit on Himalaya's internal records for an\n22 equivalent in the relevant——\n23 MR. HORTON: Objection to counsel testifying about his\n24 understanding.\n25 MR. SCHIRICK: I can rephrase. I'm happy to rephrase.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 That's fine.\n2 THE COURT: Go ahead.\n3 Q. Is it fair to say that the way that it worked was that a\n4 customer would top up an account with dollars and then the\n5 exchange would issue the customer a credit on its internal\n6 books, internal ledger, for the relevant cryptocurrency?\n7 MR. HORTON: Object to form.\n8 THE COURT: You may answer.\n9 A. That's a fair statement, yes, that's true.\n10 Q. Okay. And when the customer wanted to make a trade, the\n11 exchange would, on its internal ledger, move those credits as\n12 appropriate on its internal ledger, right?\n13 A. That's how I understood it, yes.\n14 Q. Okay. And if a user——\n15 THE COURT: Are you testifying as to what you\n16 understood was the system or what actually happened?\n17 THE WITNESS: What I understood was the system.\n18 THE COURT: In other words, that was what you\n19 understood to be the plan?\n20 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.\n21 THE COURT: Go ahead.\n22 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n23 Q. And when a user wanted to, for example, purchase HCN, the\n24 trading coin, with HDO that the user held, that transaction\n25 would be effected on the exchange's internal ledger, correct?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Correct.\n2 Q. So you could use HDO credits to buy HCN, right?\n3 A. Yes.\n4 Q. Okay. And then the HCN credit was tradeable with others\n5 who had HCN or HDO, right?\n6 A. Yes.\n7 Q. And the HDO Credits were redeemable for cash, right?\n8 A. Right.\n9 Q. Okay. All right. Now is it fair to say that that credit\n10 system that we just talked about wasn't meant to last forever\n11 at the exchange?\n12 A. I believe that's fair.\n13 Q. Right. You had plans to further develop the system, right?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. And move away from the credit system, right?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. Right. And the plan ultimately was for the exchange to\n18 operate on-chain, right?\n19 A. That was the plan.\n20 Q. And to do away with the credit system, right?\n21 A. Eventually, yes.\n22 Q. Right. And the plan was for the exchange to become a\n23 regular crypto exchange that would allow trading in other\n24 cryptocurrencies besides HCN and HDO, right?\n25 A. That was a goal, yes.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Right. And no different than other crypto exchanges,\n2 right, in the sense that you could trade other\n3 cryptocurrencies.\n4 A. Yes, it would have been more like a typical exchange at\n5 that point.\n6 Q. Okay. And those goals were ones that the Himalaya team\n7 that we talked about earlier was working towards, right?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. Okay. And in fact, the plan, as we talked about earlier,\n10 was for the exchange to eventually become a full-blown\n11 ecosystem.\n12 A. The ambitious plan, yes.\n13 Q. Yeah, fair. We covered that before. Very ambitious, but\n14 that was the plan.\n15 And in fact, that's what people were working towards,\n16 right?\n17 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n18 MR. SCHIRICK: The ecosystem is different, your Honor.\n19 THE COURT: Sustained.\n20 Q. Okay. Now as part of the ecosystem, there was a plan at\n21 the exchange to build what was called a merchant portal, right?\n22 A. Yes.\n23 Q. Okay. And what was that?\n24 A. It was a portal that would consist of retail clients who\n25 would be able to accept HCN or HDO as payment and ship\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 products.\n2 Q. Okay. Right. And merchants in this context means like\n3 businesses, right?\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. And so the idea was that the exchange was building\n6 something that would allow businesses to accept the tokens that\n7 were traded on the exchange.\n8 A. That's right.\n9 Q. Right. And so the idea was so that people could transact\n10 in those tokens.\n11 A. Yes.\n12 Q. Right. And are you aware of something called H Pay?\n13 A. Yes, I am.\n14 Q. Okay. And is it true that Hamilton and the folks at the\n15 exchange were working on an H Pay app?\n16 A. That is true.\n17 Q. Okay. And true that people at Hamilton complained that the\n18 merchant portal was not being built as quickly as they wanted\n19 it to be, right?\n20 A. Not people at Hamilton complained.\n21 Q. Didn't——\n22 A. Could you rephrase that.\n23 Q. Sure. Was Mr. Je at points frustrated that the merchant\n24 portal wasn't coming along as quickly as he wanted?\n25 A. He was.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Right. And he was a little frustrated that the ecosystem\n2 wasn't coming along as quickly as he wanted?\n3 A. To a lesser extent.\n4 Q. Okay. And how about same question with respect to H Pay.\n5 A. H Pay was started much later so there wasn't big\n6 frustration level there, but probably a minor frustration\n7 level.\n8 Q. But it was started; there was actual work done on H Pay,\n9 right?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. And there was actual work done on the merchant portal,\n12 right?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. Right. And you didn't see anything the whole time you were\n15 there to suggest that people weren't working towards these\n16 things, right?\n17 A. That's correct.\n18 Q. Okay. Now do you recall telling the government that it was\n19 your impression that Mr. Je was out hustling to get merchants\n20 onto the platform?\n21 A. Could you rephrase that one more time. Could you say that\n22 again.\n23 Q. Sure. I'll try it again. Do you recall telling the\n24 government, in your meetings with them, that it was your\n25 impression that Mr. Je was out hustling to get merchants onto\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 the platform?\n2 A. I don't recall stating that, no.\n3 Q. Okay. Let's see if we can refresh your recollection.\n4 MR. SCHIRICK: Can we pull up for just the parties and\n5 the witness, Jorge, please, 3506, at 13.\n6 If I may just have one moment, your Honor.\n7 Q. So Mr. Brown, do you see the excerpt of the document that's\n8 appeared on your screen?\n9 A. I do.\n10 Q. And do you see the highlighted portion of that document?\n11 A. I do.\n12 Q. Okay. Does that refresh your recollection of having said——\n13 A. It does.\n14 Q. ——that to the government?\n15 A. It does. Thank you.\n16 Q. So you did tell the government in your meetings with them\n17 that in fact Mr. Je was out hustling to get merchants onto the\n18 platform, right?\n19 A. Yes.\n20 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n21 MR. SCHIRICK: Well, we're just clarifying.\n22 THE COURT: Asked and answered. Sustained.\n23 Q. All right. So again, in your experience, at your time at\n24 the exchange, you didn't see anything to suggest that people\n25 weren't working hard to try to bring merchants onto the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 platform, right?\n2 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered, your Honor.\n3 THE COURT: Sustained.\n4 Q. Now they didn't always succeed, right?\n5 A. That's right.\n6 Q. Okay. And you believed that the team was spread a bit too\n7 thin; is that fair to say?\n8 A. The team was spread too thin?\n9 Q. Yes.\n10 A. I'm not sure that——that's not——I'm not sure that was\n11 something that I would have said. I thought there was too many\n12 people.\n13 Q. Okay. Well, let's see if we can refresh your recollection.\n14 A. Okay.\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: Bring up that same document.\n16 Just give me one moment.\n17 THE COURT: The question is not whether the document\n18 says that; the question is whether the document refreshes your\n19 recollection that you said that.\n20 THE WITNESS: Understood, your Honor.\n21 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Thank you. So can we please\n22 publish only for the parties, the Court, and the witness, the\n23 document.\n24 And if we could blow it up and just highlight the\n25 relevant portion, please.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n2 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Brown?\n3 A. Yes, I do.\n4 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to show you another excerpt here.\n5 Just give us one second.\n6 Okay. Thanks for your patience. I think we have it\n7 now.\n8 Mr. Brown, this is the same document but a different\n9 entry, just for your context?\n10 MR. HORTON: Sorry. Is there a question pending?\n11 THE COURT: The document is up. I think the question\n12 is whether this refreshes his recollection.\n13 MR. SCHIRICK: Yes.\n14 A. It does refresh it, but it's——it's in the context of the\n15 techs team, of the tech team.\n16 Q. Fair enough. I mean, I hadn't asked that question, but\n17 yes, I understand.\n18 The point was, as you told the government, they\n19 were——you believed that the tech team was spread too thin,\n20 right?\n21 A. Early on, yes.\n22 THE COURT: You said in the context of the tech team\n23 as opposed to what?\n24 THE WITNESS: The overall——the overall staff was\n25 bloated. So the marketing staff, other departments were top\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 heavy.\n2 Q. Okay. And the tech team was spread too thin, and they were\n3 biting off more than you thought they could chew by trying to\n4 build a whole ecosystem, right?\n5 A. Yes, yes.\n6 Q. Okay. Now again, you didn't see anything in your time at\n7 the exchange to suggest that that tech team wasn't working in\n8 good faith to build out that ecosystem.\n9 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered, your Honor.\n10 MR. SCHIRICK: Well, we're on the tech team now, your\n11 Honor. I think it's a different question.\n12 THE COURT: You can answer as to the tech team.\n13 A. Could you repeat that one more time.\n14 Q. Sure. So you didn't see anything at your time at the\n15 exchange that suggested that the tech team wasn't working as\n16 hard as it could to build out the ecosystem, right?\n17 A. That's correct. That's correct.\n18 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, if it makes sense to the\n19 Court, I think before I move on to another topic, it might be a\n20 good time.\n21 THE COURT: All righty. It's 2:29. We'll take our\n22 break now and return at 3:00.\n23 Remember, don't discuss the case amongst yourselves or\n24 with anyone else. Don't permit anyone to discuss the case in\n25 your presence. Don't read, watch, or listen to anything from\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - Cross\n1 any source that touches on the subject matter of this case.\n2 Sir, you may step out of the courtroom. Don't discuss\n3 your testimony.\n4 (Jury not present)\n5 (Witness not present)\n6 THE COURT: Is there anything before we have our\n7 break?\n8 MR. HORTON: Just a brief housekeeping issue, your\n9 Honor. It would be helpful to know, for witness scheduling\n10 purposes, if the defense has an estimate for how long the rest\n11 of the cross is going to last.\n12 THE COURT: How long the cross will last?\n13 MR. HORTON: That's right.\n14 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, my best estimate at this\n15 point is maybe another 45 minutes.\n16 THE COURT: All righty. See you later.\n17 (Recess)\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 THE COURT: Please have the jurors brought in.\n2 THE LAW CLERK: Jury entering.\n3 (Jury present)\n4 THE COURT: Please be seated. Remember that you're\n5 still under oath. You may continue the cross-examination.\n6 MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.\n7 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n8 Q. Mr. Brown, you testified on direct about white papers. Do\n9 you recall that?\n10 A. I do.\n11 Q. And I believe you testified, and you'll correct me if I'm\n12 wrong, that white papers are sort of an industry custom thing\n13 to issue before you issue tokens, right?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. In fact, you worked on the white paper for HCN?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. And for HDO?\n18 A. That's true.\n19 Q. And if we could just please pull up the April 2021 white\n20 paper for HDO. I believe it's GXBR-190.\n21 Just to remind the jury, HDO is the cash back token\n22 that we talked about earlier, right?\n23 A. That's correct.\n24 Q. And the process of writing these white papers was quite a\n25 process, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 A. It was.\n2 Q. It took about 10 or 11 months; is that fair to say?\n3 A. Very arduous, yes.\n4 Q. And you had a significant hand in drafting this, right?\n5 A. Yes.\n6 Q. You worked with others, but you had a significant part?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. Let's just take a look if we could at, it's the page with\n9 the Bates stamp ending in 9898.\n10 While we pull that up, Mr. Brown, this is dated April\n11 2021, right?\n12 A. Yes.\n13 Q. It's dated April 2021. And this is around the time of the\n14 very first sort of private token offering, right; is that fair\n15 to say?\n16 A. That's fair to say.\n17 Q. Cause there was, before November 2021, which we'll come to\n18 in a second, there was just a private sale to kind of friends\n19 and family, right, fair to say?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. So this paper is issued in connection with that private\n22 sale, fair, or at least around the same time?\n23 A. Around the same time.\n24 Q. There's going to be a sale, so you put out information\n25 about what's being sold?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 A. That's true.\n2 Q. Now we're at this page here, and if you could see at the\n3 top it says the Himalaya Dollar solution. Do you see that?\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. And has this been published to the jury? Yes. All right.\n6 I'm going to read a short passage, and you let me know\n7 if I get it right. Third paragraph down beginning with the\n8 word Members.\n9 Members of the Himalaya Exchange will be able to\n10 participate in an issuance of the Himalaya Dollar through the\n11 purchase of HDO credits through the Himalaya Exchange. Do you\n12 see that?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. And then moving down two paragraphs to the sentence\n15 beginning in the middle if the market. You see here it says,\n16 If the market for HDO credits experiences significant liquidity\n17 shortfall, the issuer will have the ability to use the funds in\n18 the reserve to provide liquidity support. Do you see that?\n19 A. Yes.\n20 Q. And then moving down another two paragraphs to the sentence\n21 that begins, In addition. In addition to the trading solution\n22 benefits, HDO credits are also designed for use through the\n23 \"Himalaya pay app.\" The Himalaya pay app, which will be\n24 launched during phase three, will allow members to use HDO\n25 credits to offer domestic and cross-broader payments to\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 merchants who accept payment for good and services through\n2 Himalaya pay within the Himalaya ecosystem. It defines\n3 Himalaya Ecosystem. Members will also be able to make\n4 transfers of HDO credits from their Himalaya pay account to the\n5 Himalaya pay accounts of other members. did I read that\n6 correctly?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. Now, is it fair to say that this describes the HDO credit\n9 system that you and I discussed earlier today?\n10 A. That's fair.\n11 Q. And is it also fair to say that what we just read describes\n12 the anticipated launch of the H Pay app?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. If we could just move to the next page, please.\n15 At the top it says Roll Out. You see that?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. And this just generally speaking, this slide or page from\n18 the white paper shows the sort of phased roll out of the\n19 ecosystem; is that fair?\n20 A. Yes, that's fair.\n21 Q. In fact it says right there on the top of the left what the\n22 anticipated schedule for the phase roll out is, right?\n23 A. Yes.\n24 Q. Let's read one there. It says, Himalaya Exchange prelaunch\n25 and launch of HDO, private placement participants. Just to\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 pause there, do you understand that to mean the private sale\n2 that you and I were just talking about a second ago?\n3 A. I understand, yes.\n4 Q. It says, Private placement participants may apply to open a\n5 Himalaya Exchange account and complete KYC procedures following\n6 opening of an account, private placement participants may top\n7 up their account by purchasing Himalaya dollar credits with USD\n8 on a 1:1 ratio.\n9 If we zoom out just go to two, please, under Himalaya\n10 Coin launch. Do you understand that Himalaya Coin is HCN?\n11 A. Yes.\n12 Q. And there it says that registration period for private\n13 placement participants expires. Private placement participants\n14 may purchase HCN credits up to their allocated amount?\n15 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, may we have a second to\n16 confer with defense counsel.\n17 THE COURT: Yes.\n18 (Counsel conferred)\n19 MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you, your Honor.\n20 Q. And then if we go to arrow three it says, Full Himalaya\n21 Exchange and Himalaya Pay app launch. Under that it says,\n22 Members make commence trading HDO, HCN and other crypto asset\n23 credits through their account on the Himalaya Exchange. The\n24 Himalaya Exchange is open to the public for registration and\n25 trading. The Himalaya pay app will enable members to start\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 sending and receiving payments globally. And again, that\n2 describes the anticipated roll out of H pay app?\n3 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, may we approach? There's an\n4 observation.\n5 THE COURT: Okay.\n6 (Continued on next page)\n7\n8\n9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 (At the sidebar)\n2 MR. HORTON: Your Honor will recall that during\n3 Mr. Robert's testimony a week ago had an objection to the\n4 purposes of for which the defense was offering this white\n5 paper, and there was a ruling from the Court that they couldn't\n6 come in for its truth. They could use the white paper to ask,\n7 we could go to Mr. Robert's the same as Mr. Brown, non-hearsay\n8 questions about the document, but not use it to sort of assert\n9 to the jury that so and so is true. I spoke to Mr. Schirick to\n10 say that we anticipated in his questions rather than the use of\n11 the document because it's mostly reading the document as\n12 opposed to questions, we're veering into the territory that we\n13 understood was set aside with the Court's ruling last week. We\n14 think that reading the document over and over again with this\n15 witness crosses that line that the Court set.\n16 THE COURT: So are you asking for a limiting\n17 instruction?\n18 MR. HORTON: Yes.\n19 MR. SCHIRICK: We're offering this for a non-hearsay\n20 purpose. We're just offering it for the fact that it was said.\n21 It's relevant to -- directly relevant to materiality because we\n22 will argue that this was a disclosure of the way that the\n23 system actually worked. The government will argue that by\n24 saying these tokens were crypto that that was somehow\n25 misleading, and we're entitled to be able to put this in.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 Again, for non-hearsay purpose of showing that this was in fact\n2 said and a disclosure was made.\n3 THE COURT: Are you saying that the document does not\n4 describe the asset as crypto?\n5 MR. SCHIRICK: That is a true statement. It's not\n6 only that, though, your Honor, yes.\n7 THE COURT: But you're not seeking to offer it for its\n8 truth?\n9 MR. SCHIRICK: I don't think we need to offer it for\n10 its truth. The statements that are statements of anticipated\n11 events, of upcoming events are also being offered simply for\n12 the fact that they were disclosed.\n13 MS. SHROFF: Or made.\n14 MR. SCHIRICK: It's also relevant because they're\n15 obviously going to argue that Mr. Guo through some series of\n16 other people intended to mislead folks by saying it's crypto\n17 when it wasn't, so we're entitled to bring this in to show that\n18 there wasn't any intent to deceive.\n19 MR. HORTON: There wasn't a question about, Mr. Brown,\n20 were these things actually said. Mr. Brown, what was the\n21 effect on you of these things non-hearsay purpose. This\n22 document is in evidence. It came in last week, and it came a\n23 week ago, a lot has happened at trial with a limiting\n24 instruction. We think it would be appropriate given the amount\n25 of time being spent on the same document with a similar witness\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 to again remind the jury that that's how this document should\n2 be viewed.\n3 THE COURT: That's what I'll do.\n4 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, just for purposes of\n5 efficiency, I'm going to go through subsequent white papers,\n6 hopefully very quickly, but there are three more and I will try\n7 to cover them quickly.\n8 THE COURT: Quickly.\n9 (Continued on next page)\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 (In open court; jury present)\n2 THE COURT: Members of the jury, I want you to\n3 understand that this document is not being offered for its\n4 truth. It's only being offered for the fact that it exists and\n5 those statements were made.\n6 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n7 Q. I've forgotten where we were. I think we were on phase two\n8 describing Himalaya pay out.\n9 My question, Mr. Brown, is that did I accurately read\n10 that?\n11 A. Yes.\n12 Q. And you were the author of this, in part, of this document,\n13 right?\n14 A. In part.\n15 Q. If we can move to page 9901. And if I can just focus your\n16 attention on the last paragraph of this page beginning, In\n17 addition.\n18 It says, In addition following the launch of the\n19 Himalaya pay app, members will be able to use HDO credits to\n20 offer payment to merchants who can accept payment for goods and\n21 services through the Himalaya pay app to make transfers of HDO\n22 credits from their Himalaya pay account to the Himalaya pay\n23 accounts of other members. When the planned infrastructure\n24 upgrade to a hybrid Ethereum and Quorum blockchain platform is\n25 completed, we believe that the Himalaya pay out will provide\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 significant benefits against pure offerings and represent a\n2 highly scalable solution.\n3 Did I read that correctly?\n4 A. You did.\n5 Q. Let's go to page 9903, please.\n6 At the top first paragraph reads: Following\n7 commencement of phase three roll out, members will be able to\n8 make a request to exchange credits to their Himalaya Exchange\n9 account for the corresponding crypto assets which if approved\n10 by the Himalaya Exchange would then be transferred to a\n11 member's external wallet address.\n12 Did I read that correctly?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. Now, as a co-author of this April 2021 HDO white paper, did\n15 you believe those statements were true when they were made?\n16 Anything incorrect in that?\n17 A. No.\n18 Q. Let's move to --\n19 THE COURT: There were two questions there. The first\n20 was, did you consider that statement to be true, and so he\n21 needs to answer both questions.\n22 MR. SCHIRICK: I believe he answered the second\n23 question, your Honor.\n24 THE COURT: I don't know that he answered both\n25 questions, and I'd like him to answer both questions.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 MR. SCHIRICK: I jumped the gun.\n2 Q. The question is, did you believe that what we just read to\n3 be true at the time?\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. And nothing incorrect in there, right?\n6 A. Nothing incorrect.\n7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, if we could please pull up what's\n8 been marked as GXAS-13. This is just for the witness, the\n9 Court and the parties, please.\n10 Mr. Brown, do you recognize this document?\n11 A. I do.\n12 Q. Is this a copy of the Himalaya Coin HCN white paper for\n13 April of 2021?\n14 A. It appears so, yes.\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, we move this document or\n16 offer this document into evidence consistent with the Court's\n17 prior instruction.\n18 THE COURT: Is there any objection?\n19 MR. HORTON: No objection provided there's a similar\n20 instruction given to the nature of the document.\n21 THE COURT: So how many of these similar documents do\n22 you have?\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: Three more including this one.\n24 THE COURT: So the instruction that I just gave you\n25 that these documents are not being offered for their truth, but\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 merely for the fact that they existed. We'll leave it at that.\n2 That applies to a total of four documents.\n3 MR. SCHIRICK: And we're on the second here. Now can\n4 we please publish to the jury, your Honor.\n5 THE COURT: Go ahead. It is admitted.\n6 (Government's Exhibit AS-13 received in evidence)\n7 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n8 Q. Now, Mr. Brown, you had a hand in co-authoring this paper\n9 as well, right?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. If we can please go to page seven. Just to draw your\n12 attention to the second paragraph beginning participation. It\n13 says, Participation in the issuance of the Himalaya Coins will\n14 only be available to certain members of the Himalaya Exchange a\n15 new digital asset exchange which is at the heart of our mission\n16 to create a new digital financial system. The operation of the\n17 Himalaya Exchange and associated application and infrastructure\n18 will be facilitated through the use of \"credits.\" Credits\n19 within the system will correspond to a particular type of\n20 crypto asset.\n21 Did I read that correctly?\n22 A. You did.\n23 Q. Now, if we go down to the second to last paragraph on the\n24 same page beginning the Himalaya Ecosystem.\n25 It reads, A Himalaya Ecosystem is being developed\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 through partnerships with businesses who it is anticipated will\n2 provide access to their products and services. The creation\n3 and development of the Himalaya Ecosystem is intended to\n4 support the commercial value proposition of HCN and HCN credits\n5 incentivizing adoption and use.\n6 Did I read that correctly?\n7 A. You did.\n8 Q. Let's go to page nine, please. You can see here this is\n9 substantially similar to the chart we just looked at, the\n10 previous document?\n11 A. Right.\n12 Q. If we can agree on that, we can spare everybody having to\n13 read it. If you go to page 11 and focusing on that last\n14 paragraph and just the last sentence of that last paragraph\n15 beginning, When the planned infrastructure upgrade to a hybrid\n16 ethereum and Quorum blockchain platform is completed, we\n17 believe the Himalaya pay app will provide significant benefits\n18 against peer offerings and represent a highly scalable\n19 solution. Is that the same HDO April 2021 white paper?\n20 A. Seems similar.\n21 Q. Now, same question, Mr. Brown, when you helped to co-author\n22 this document, you believed everything that was stated in this\n23 document was accurate; is that right?\n24 A. I'm not sure that is right, no.\n25 Q. What in this document is different from the earlier\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 document you looked at?\n2 A. So the question was, Is this document the same as the one\n3 we just looked at?\n4 Q. No. The question was whether this document, you believe\n5 this document to be accurate at the time you co-authored it?\n6 A. All of this verbiage is not anything that I wrote.\n7 Q. My question is different. At the time you co-authored\n8 this, did you believe that the statements in this document were\n9 accurate?\n10 MR. HORTON: Objection, mischaracterizes his\n11 testimony.\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: I'm not sure I characterized his\n13 testimony.\n14 MR. HORTON: The statement about co-authorship.\n15 THE COURT: You threw in at the time he co-authored.\n16 He said he did not, so the question needs to be limited to, At\n17 the time, did you believe what was written in this document to\n18 be true.\n19 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, respectfully, I believe he\n20 did testify that he co-authored this.\n21 THE COURT: But this section I thought he said this\n22 was not correct.\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: He said some verbiage.\n24 THE COURT: Did you write a portion of the sentence\n25 that we're looking at right now?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 THE WITNESS: I did not.\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, may we have a brief\n3 sidebar.\n4 THE COURT: Okay.\n5 (Continued on next page)\n6\n7\n8\n9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 (At the sidebar)\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, candidly, your Honor, I was\n3 trying to be more efficient to find a way to get this to show\n4 it to the witness and ask if certain statements are accurate at\n5 the time. And if I can't do it this way, I may have to do it\n6 the slow way, which I preferred not to do obviously for\n7 everyone's sake.\n8 MR. FINKEL: Is that a threat?\n9 MR. SCHIRICK: No, I just want to be candid. I can\n10 move quickly through the part that I want to highlight. I\n11 don't need him to affirm everything. I just need him to affirm\n12 certain questions.\n13 THE COURT: There's a question out there, did he\n14 believe those statements in that section to be true at the\n15 time.\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: I think I asked him, I may be wrong, I\n17 thought I asked him about the entire document. And I think\n18 this is where we're running into -- he's going to say, he\n19 wasn't responsible for the entire document, so I'm going to\n20 have to go piece by piece then. I'm open to suggestion. I'm\n21 not sure --\n22 THE COURT: You use those words, \"entire document?\"\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: I said what's in this document, do you\n24 believe what's in this document to be accurate. Do you believe\n25 this document to be co-authored by --\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 THE COURT: He said yes?\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: He said he wasn't responsible for\n3 portions of it.\n4 MR. HORTON: It's a fact. It is true. That's what\n5 he's saying. He didn't write certain pieces that are being\n6 shown to him.\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: Be careful. He didn't say pieces that\n8 were shown to him. I asked him about the entire document.\n9 MR. HORTON: I think you showed him an excerpt and he\n10 said I did not. He said I did not.\n11 MR. SCHIRICK: We can have the record read back.\n12 (Record was read)\n13 THE COURT: Back on the record. He is disavowing at\n14 least a portion of it, and it's not proper to characterize it\n15 in another way.\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: I can take it piece by piece and ask\n17 him statement by statement which is really what I want to do.\n18 Again, your Honor, I was looking to save time.\n19 MR. FINKEL: I think what going to come up, the\n20 document that he authored, he doesn't believe he authored all\n21 of it. If he wants to ask, do you believe everything in this\n22 document is accurate, I suppose he could ask that question. I\n23 don't know. Mr. Brown would need to review it. We can't, for\n24 efficiency, decide that the witness should just adopt something\n25 that the defense wants him to adopt. I don't think that's\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 appropriate.\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: Nobody is implying that. I'm saying I\n3 would reluctantly go back and do it in pieces because I think\n4 in pieces comes out differently. He's saying he didn't do the\n5 whole document.\n6 THE COURT: I don't know any other way of doing it.\n7 (Continued on next page)\n8\n9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 (In open court; jury present)\n2 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n3 Q. If we could please go back to page nine. Actually, I'm\n4 sorry. Let's make it page ten.\n5 Now, Mr. Brown, if I could focus you on the third\n6 paragraph down from the top beginning credits. You see that?\n7 A. Yes, I do.\n8 Q. It says, Credit can only be used on the Himalaya Exchange\n9 within the Himalaya Ecosystem representing a right to\n10 participate in trading on the Himalaya Exchange and do not\n11 carry any right to require their exchange for fiat currency on\n12 crypto assets. A member may make a request to the Himalaya\n13 Exchange to exchange credits on their account and receive a\n14 transfer of corresponding crypto assets to their external\n15 wallet addresses.\n16 Did I read that accurately?\n17 A. I believe you did.\n18 Q. And if we can now go to page seven, second paragraph. We\n19 read this earlier. Participation in the issuance of the\n20 Himalaya Coins will only be available to certain members of the\n21 Himalaya Exchange, a new digital asset exchange which is at the\n22 heart of our mission to create a new digital financial system,\n23 the Himalaya Exchange, the operation of the Himalaya Exchange\n24 and associated applications and infrastructure will be\n25 facilitated through the use of credits. Credits within the\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 system will correspond to a particular type of crypto asset.\n2 Did I read that correctly?\n3 A. You did.\n4 Q. At the time this was written in April of 2021, did you\n5 believe that to be an accurate statement about the functioning\n6 of the credit system?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. If we could go down in the same document to the second to\n9 last paragraph, please, beginning the Himalaya Ecosystem. It\n10 says here, the Himalaya Ecosystem is being developed through\n11 partnerships with businesses who it is anticipated will provide\n12 access to the products and services. The creation and\n13 development of the Himalaya Ecosystem is intended to support\n14 the commercial value proposition of HCN and HCN credits\n15 incentivizing adoption and use.\n16 Did I read that correctly?\n17 A. Yes, you did.\n18 Q. And understanding that this is a statement of future\n19 intention, at the time this was made in April of 2021, did you\n20 believe --\n21 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, objection to the testimony\n22 including legal conclusions.\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: I'm happy to do it in pieces.\n24 MR. HORTON: It's not the size of the testimony. It's\n25 the fact that it's testimony.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 THE COURT: Don't ask him for legal conclusions. He's\n2 not a lawyer.\n3 MR. HORTON: The objection is that counsel is stating\n4 legal conclusions and testifying about them not even asking a\n5 question.\n6 THE COURT: And, Mr. Schirick, you're not to state\n7 legal conclusion.\n8 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n9 Q. The question is, what do you understand hereby the\n10 ecosystem is being developed?\n11 A. I understand that the ecosystem is being built out.\n12 Q. Right. And it's in process, right?\n13 A. According to that wording, yes.\n14 Q. As you and I talked about earlier before the lunch break,\n15 it was in fact being worked on, right?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. So is that an accurate statement of what was being worked\n18 on at the time in April of 2021?\n19 A. Yes.\n20 Q. Now, if we could please go to Government Exhibit AS-12.\n21 Mr. Brown, do you recognize this document?\n22 A. I do.\n23 Q. And what is it?\n24 A. It's the white paper for the Himalaya Coin.\n25 Q. And what's the date on this document?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 A. That would be January 2022.\n2 Q. And were you a co-author of this white paper?\n3 A. I would say at this point I pretty much given up the pen to\n4 the attorneys.\n5 Q. So did you participate in drafting this in any way?\n6 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: That's a different question.\n8 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.\n9 A. I would have to see the whole document to comment on that.\n10 Q. Sure. We're happy to just flip through it briefly. I'm\n11 happy to focus you on a particular page if that would be\n12 helpful?\n13 A. If there's any page about the Quorum and ethereum ecosystem\n14 that would have been the only thing that I wrote.\n15 Q. Let's focus on page eight if you don't mind. It's halfway\n16 down on this page, the sentence beginning, The Himalaya\n17 Exchange is intended.\n18 It says, The Himalaya Exchange is intended to provide\n19 high levels of liquidity and credits traded on the platform and\n20 other crypto assets. Do you see that?\n21 A. I do.\n22 Q. And this document still describes in January of 2022 the\n23 system at the exchange as being one based on credits, right?\n24 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, I don't believe this document\n25 is in evidence. I don't believe it's been offered.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 THE COURT: So it needs to have a foundation first.\n2 Q. Do you recognize this document?\n3 MR. HORTON: To be clear, we have no objection subject\n4 to the same instruction given that it's a similar document.\n5 THE COURT: So have you offered it to be admitted?\n6 MR. SCHIRICK: Yes, your Honor.\n7 THE COURT: So it's admitted.\n8 (Government's Exhibit AS-12 received in evidence)\n9 THE COURT: Is there an objection to this item?\n10 MR. HORTON: No objection, asking for an instruction\n11 given the substantially similar nature of this document.\n12 THE COURT: You may go ahead.\n13 MR. SCHIRICK: If this isn't published to the jury,\n14 can we publish to the jury.\n15 Q. My question is that at this point in time January of 2022,\n16 the white paper still describes the system that the exchange is\n17 operating on as a credit system, right?\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. Hopefully lastly if we can turn to, again just for Court,\n20 the witness and the parties Government Exhibit AS-18.\n21 Mr. Brown, do you recognize this document?\n22 A. Yes.\n23 Q. Do you recognize it as the January 2022 white paper for the\n24 Himalaya Dollar HDO?\n25 A. I do.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 MR. SCHIRICK: We offer this document AS-18 into\n2 evidence.\n3 MR. HORTON: No objection.\n4 THE COURT: It is admitted.\n5 MR. HORTON: Excuse me. No objection subject to the\n6 same limitation.\n7 THE COURT: Understood.\n8 (Government's Exhibit AS-18 received in evidence)\n9 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n10 Q. If we could quickly go to page eight in the third paragraph\n11 from the top beginning, Members of the Himalaya Exchange will\n12 be able to participate in the issuance of Himalaya Dollar\n13 through the purchase of the HDO credits through the Himalaya\n14 Exchange. Do you see that?\n15 A. Yes, I do.\n16 Q. Is it true at this point in time January of 2022 when this\n17 document is put on -- withdrawn.\n18 You testified earlier that the white papers were put\n19 on the Himalaya Exchange website, right?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. And that applies to all of the white papers that we looked\n22 at here in the last few minutes, right?\n23 A. I'm not sure about that.\n24 Q. But it was the practice to put the final white papers on\n25 the Himalaya Exchange website, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 A. It was the practice.\n2 Q. And you don't have any reason to believe that these weren't\n3 posted to the website consistent with that practice, right?\n4 MR. HORTON: Objection, asked and answered.\n5 THE COURT: Sustained.\n6 Q. Would you consider posting something to -- withdrawn.\n7 Is it fair to say that January of 2022 the white paper\n8 that we just reviewed that is in evidence as GXAS-18 continues\n9 to describe the Himalaya Exchange system as one that's based on\n10 credits?\n11 A. That's fair, counsel.\n12 Q. If we can just go to page 11, the final paragraph there,\n13 just to blow that up.\n14 And I believe, Mr. Brown, you testified before that\n15 you recall that your role in drafting the white papers at this\n16 point in time would have been focused on descriptions of\n17 Quorum; is that fair?\n18 A. Yes, that's fair.\n19 Q. So I'm going to read this paragraph. It says, In addition,\n20 following the launch of the Himalaya pay app, members will be\n21 able to use HDO credits to offer payments to merchants who\n22 accept payment for goods and services through the Himalaya pay\n23 app or make transfers of HDO credits from their Himalaya pay\n24 account to the Himalaya pay accounts of other members. When\n25 the planned infrastructure upgrade to a hybrid ethereum and\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 Quorum blockchain platform is completed, we believe that the\n2 Himalaya pay app will provide significant benefits against peer\n3 offerings and represent a highly scalable solution.\n4 Did I read that right?\n5 A. You read that right.\n6 Q. Do you recognize this as, a portion of this document, to\n7 which you contributed as an author?\n8 A. No, that is not true.\n9 Q. Is there some other portion that relates to Quorum that you\n10 believe you contributed to?\n11 A. I believe in previous white papers there was a whole\n12 section devoted to Quorum.\n13 Q. And you were working on Quorum, right?\n14 A. Well, I was working on the white paper around Quorum, yes.\n15 Q. The Exchange was working on Quorum, right, during your time\n16 there?\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. Is it fair to say that the paragraph that we just read here\n19 at the bottom of page 11 of this document that's in evidence is\n20 an accurate statement of what was happening at the Exchange at\n21 the time this was published?\n22 A. It is fair, yes.\n23 Q. Thank you. I believe you testified that on direct that\n24 there was no difference between G Coin and H Coin. Do you\n25 recall that?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 A. I do.\n2 Q. Did you ever write a white paper for G Coin?\n3 A. I may have contributed to one, yes.\n4 Q. Was one ever finalized?\n5 A. Not to my knowledge or my recollection.\n6 Q. Did G Coin ever exist?\n7 A. It did not.\n8 Q. Was G Coin ever anything more than a concept?\n9 A. Yeah, it was a concept of H Coin.\n10 Q. Try to answer my question. Was G Coin ever anything more\n11 than a concept?\n12 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n13 THE COURT: Sustained.\n14 MR. SCHIRICK: Move to strike, your Honor.\n15 THE COURT: It was already asked and answered.\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: Move to strike as non-responsive. The\n17 prior answer was non-responsive.\n18 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n19 THE COURT: Sustained.\n20 Q. When you say there's no difference between G Coin and\n21 H Coin, do you mean that the G Coin concept became the H Coin\n22 later?\n23 A. I'm not sure that's entirely true either.\n24 Q. So G Coin was never created, right?\n25 A. No, it was never created.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Right. And H Coin was the thing you worked on, right?\n2 A. Could you repeat that.\n3 Q. H Coin was the thing that you worked on, right?\n4 A. It was, yes.\n5 Q. Not G Coin, just to draw a distinction between the two?\n6 A. For the first month or so, we were calling H Coin G Coin.\n7 Q. So it was renamed?\n8 A. That's right.\n9 Q. Okay. Fair enough. But G Coin never became a reality,\n10 right?\n11 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n12 THE COURT: Sustained.\n13 Q. Now, you testified that on direct that your work at the\n14 Exchange was not what you expected at the time that you joined,\n15 right?\n16 A. That's right.\n17 Q. But you understood that the long-term goal of what the\n18 Exchange was trying to build was consistent with what you\n19 expected, right?\n20 MR. HORTON: Objection, we've been through this, your\n21 Honor.\n22 MR. SCHIRICK: This is as to his expectation.\n23 THE COURT: You're asking whether the long-term goal\n24 was consistent with what, his expectation?\n25 MR. SCHIRICK: Correct, of what the Exchange was going\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 to build.\n2 THE COURT: You may answer.\n3 A. I didn't expect it to build to be credits.\n4 Q. In the long-term as we've discussed, it wasn't going to be\n5 credits, right?\n6 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: I have to be able to ask the question.\n8 THE COURT: You can answer that question.\n9 A. That's right.\n10 Q. So you didn't expect it to be a credit system, but you also\n11 understood that eventually it was going to move to a real\n12 crypto system that was not based on credits in your view,\n13 right?\n14 A. That's right.\n15 Q. So that would have been consistent with your expectation,\n16 right?\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. So therefore the question is, the long-term plan of what\n19 Himalaya Exchange was building was consistent with your\n20 expectations?\n21 It was just the short-term plan that was inconsistent,\n22 right?\n23 MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor.\n24 THE COURT: So there's a lot of questions in there.\n25 Q. Isn't it true that the long-term plan of what the Himalaya\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 Exchange was building was consistent with your expectation of\n2 what they were going to build when you joined?\n3 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n4 THE COURT: Sustained.\n5 Q. Now, you were frustrated that it was taking longer than you\n6 wanted to bring about the developments in the Himalaya\n7 Exchange; is that fair?\n8 A. That is fair.\n9 Q. And you testified I believe on direct that you weren't\n10 allowed access to some of the trading data from the Exchange;\n11 is that right?\n12 A. I wasn't allowed access to any data.\n13 Q. Can you answer my question.\n14 A. Yes.\n15 Q. The trading data?\n16 A. The trading data.\n17 Q. You never asked William Je for access to that trading data,\n18 right, as you testified to on direct?\n19 A. That's correct.\n20 Q. And Mr. Je wasn't really running that as you said, right?\n21 A. Could you ask that question again.\n22 Q. Sure. I believe you testified on direct that Mr. Je wasn't\n23 really running the trading data. He wasn't really the owner of\n24 the trading data, right?\n25 A. That's fair. That was the CISO.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Right.\n2 A. Azeem.\n3 Q. Who was in charge of information and security?\n4 A. That's correct.\n5 Q. And he was in your view sort of hyper-security conscious,\n6 right?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. You don't think that Mr. Je was keeping anything from you,\n9 right, in terms of the trading data because Mr. Azeem was\n10 hyper-security conscious?\n11 A. I found it odd that I couldn't have a peak at what was\n12 going on.\n13 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Je say that you, Mr. Brown, couldn't\n14 have a peak?\n15 MR. HORTON: Objection, calls for hearsay.\n16 Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Je ever told Mr. Azeem\n17 not to show you the data?\n18 THE COURT: You may answer.\n19 A. Could you repeat that one more time.\n20 Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Je ever told Azeem not to\n21 show you the data?\n22 He never told Mr. Azeem not to show you the data,\n23 correct?\n24 MR. HORTON: Objection, two questions.\n25 THE COURT: If you'll just ask the main question.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. To your knowledge Mr. Je never told Mr. Azeem not to show\n2 you the data, right?\n3 A. That's correct.\n4 Q. Now, you testified earlier a point came when you were\n5 promoted to CEO?\n6 A. That's right.\n7 Q. And this was roughly in the spring of 2021?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. And that was at a stakeholders meeting?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. And were all of the heads of the departments for the\n12 Exchange there?\n13 A. They were.\n14 Q. The folks that we talked about before as being kind of the\n15 senior group, right?\n16 A. Yes, correct.\n17 Q. And you had the impression that there were some other folks\n18 in that senior group who wanted that CEO job, right?\n19 A. Yes, that's correct.\n20 Q. And you had the impression that they were maybe bugging\n21 Mr. Je to get that CEO job, right?\n22 A. I'm not so sure \"bugging\" is the correct word. They were\n23 overzealous maybe.\n24 Q. Fair enough. And prior to that there was no CEO role,\n25 right, it was just Mr. Je effectively in control?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 A. That's correct, counsel.\n2 Q. And you believe that you made CEO because you were fluent\n3 in the language of blockchain, right?\n4 A. No. No.\n5 Q. Do you recall telling the government that you believed that\n6 you were made CEO because in part you were fluent in the area\n7 of blockchain?\n8 A. No. I recall saying that Mr. Je was impressed with some of\n9 the things I had done here in the states and that was one of\n10 the reasons.\n11 Q. And you also understood that in your view one of the\n12 reasons he promoted you to CEO was because of your willingness\n13 to relocate if necessary?\n14 A. That's fair.\n15 Q. Within limits. We understand there are some things were\n16 out of bounds.\n17 A. Fair.\n18 Q. There were real reasons for you to be made CEO, right?\n19 Those are two reasons, right?\n20 A. Those are two.\n21 Q. And now you testified you don't really feel like you're CEO\n22 material?\n23 A. That's true.\n24 Q. Currently you have your own company, right?\n25 A. Yes, consulting company.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. You're the CEO of that company?\n2 A. It's a one man company, so I'm not really sure. A lot of\n3 people like to say they're CEO of a one man company. I don't\n4 really make that boast.\n5 Q. There's nobody else in charge?\n6 A. Well, there's no one to run anything.\n7 Q. During the time that, the entire time you were at the\n8 Himalaya Exchange, is it true you never had any substantive\n9 interactions with Mr. Guo?\n10 A. That's true.\n11 Q. And the only time you interacted with him was when he\n12 toasted you on a live stream, right?\n13 A. That's true.\n14 Q. You never spoke to Mr. Guo ever aside from that?\n15 A. Not to my recollection.\n16 Q. And he never gave you any management direction whatsoever,\n17 right.\n18 A. No.\n19 Q. Now, did a time come when the smart contracts for HCN and\n20 HDO were created?\n21 A. There were.\n22 Q. And those were published to the blockchain, right?\n23 A. Yes, they would have been.\n24 Q. And they were publicly available for review as a result of\n25 being published to the blockchain, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Could you repeat that.\n2 Q. Were the smart contracts for HCN and HDO publicly available\n3 for review because they were on the blockchain?\n4 A. I'm not sure that's accurate. I believe the smart contract\n5 work was testing at the time.\n6 Q. I didn't give you a time. My question is --\n7 A. Well, at any time in my tenure there.\n8 Q. Are you familiar with Ether scan?\n9 A. Yes.\n10 Q. And you can use Ether scan to check to see if a smart\n11 contract is on the blockchain?\n12 A. You can.\n13 Q. Have you ever used Ether scan to check if the smart\n14 contract for HCN or HDO were on a blockchain?\n15 A. I did not.\n16 Q. Now, Himalaya had these smart contracts audited by a\n17 software code expert, right?\n18 A. Yes, if you call Certek an expert.\n19 Q. Are they not -- are Certek not a recognized expert in\n20 software security?\n21 A. No longer.\n22 Q. At the time?\n23 A. At the time it was suspect too because of the FTX crash.\n24 Q. Did in fact Himalaya hire Certek to audit the smart\n25 contracts for HCN and HDO?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 A. They did.\n2 Q. In fact Certek made recommended changes to the smart\n3 contracts of HCN and HDO, right?\n4 A. I believe so. I wasn't privy to it.\n5 Q. Do you understand that those smart contracts for HCN and\n6 HDO are upgradeable?\n7 A. I had no knowledge of that, but the potential to be\n8 upgradeable through solidity is there.\n9 Q. Right, as a matter --\n10 A. It's inherently.\n11 Q. They're inherently upgradeable?\n12 A. Yes.\n13 Q. Now, I just want to talk briefly about the KYC process at\n14 the exchange.\n15 What does KYC stand for?\n16 A. Know Your Customer.\n17 Q. And in your view the on-boarding of an Exchange customer\n18 was a pretty time intensive thing?\n19 A. It's very arduous.\n20 Q. Very arduous. And I think there was something like 16\n21 questions that customers had to go through in order to sign up?\n22 A. That's correct.\n23 Q. Do you recall telling the government in your view most\n24 people had trouble filling out more than four fields of the 16?\n25 A. Yeah, that's an industry understanding that after four\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - Cross\n1 fields, you begin to get a dropoff in people signing up.\n2 Q. And even if someone did manage to fill out all of the\n3 fields, they still had to go through Bitgo's onboard process,\n4 right?\n5 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, we object to the line of\n6 questioning beyond the scope of direct of KYC and on-boarding.\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I'm happy to --\n8 THE COURT: I don't remember anything about customers\n9 signing up, so this is beyond the scope.\n10 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I'm happy to call him as my\n11 own witness if we need to. This goes to the general operations\n12 of the Exchange which I think is well inbounds given\n13 Mr. Brown's direct testimony.\n14 (Continued on next page)\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 THE COURT: Okay.\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you.\n3 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n4 Q. So the question is, even if someone did fill out all\n5 fields, all 16 fields, they still had to get through Bitgo's\n6 onboard process, right?\n7 A. I don't recall if Bitgo was part of that 16 or not, but\n8 Bitgo was involved in that, yes.\n9 Q. Okay. So whether they were part of the 16 or followed the\n10 16, they were involved in the process somehow.\n11 A. That's right.\n12 Q. Okay. And do you recall that the Bitgo onboarding process\n13 required customers to take a picture?\n14 A. Yes, I do.\n15 Q. Okay. And it turned out that a lot of people had trouble\n16 taking pictures of their IDs when they were foreign IDs, right?\n17 A. That's right.\n18 Q. By foreign, I mean non-U.S. IDs, right?\n19 A. That's accurate.\n20 Q. And that gave the technology fits, right?\n21 A. It did.\n22 Q. Okay. And because the technology wasn't good at handling\n23 Mandarin characters in particular, right?\n24 A. That's correct.\n25 Q. All right. And also because the software was designed for\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 like a first name-last name, and in China, at least, that is\n2 typically switched.\n3 A. Exactly.\n4 Q. And as a result of the arduous——to borrow your\n5 phrase——onboarding process, it took customers sometimes a month\n6 or more just to complete the paperwork, right?\n7 A. That is correct.\n8 Q. Okay. And you thought it should have taken something more\n9 like 24 to 48 hours, right?\n10 A. 20 minutes.\n11 Q. Fair enough. Even shorter.\n12 And you were concerned that people were getting\n13 frustrated with it, right?\n14 A. It was obvious.\n15 Q. Okay. And there were calls to the 24/7 Mandarin-English\n16 hotline about that, right?\n17 A. Flooded the hotline.\n18 Q. Okay. And one of the reasons that there were all of these\n19 checks was because the exchange restricted users by geography,\n20 right?\n21 A. Can you repeat that.\n22 Q. Yeah. I mean, sure. One of the reasons that there was all\n23 of this process that we just talked about was because the\n24 exchange restricted onboarding users from certain geographies.\n25 A. Yeah, that's true.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Okay. And the U.S. was one of those geographies, right?\n2 A. It was.\n3 Q. And Canada was too, right?\n4 A. As well, yes.\n5 Q. All right. And do you recall telling the government that\n6 you believed that the exchange spent more money on these\n7 compliance procedures than anything other than IT?\n8 A. I don't recall saying that, no.\n9 Q. Okay. Maybe we can refresh your recollection real quick.\n10 Actually, withdrawn. Do you remember telling the\n11 government during one of your meetings with them that you\n12 thought the people at the exchange were overly compliant?\n13 A. I do.\n14 Q. Okay. And your view was there was too much compliance,\n15 right?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. It was excessive.\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. And you recall telling the government that you thought the\n20 exchange could have taken more customers.\n21 A. I think that's true.\n22 Q. Okay. Now let's just talk about marketing briefly.\n23 The exchange——withdrawn.\n24 In your view, the exchange was too conservative when\n25 it came to its own marketing about its services and products,\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 right?\n2 A. Yes.\n3 Q. And you felt the lawyers were making the decisions about\n4 marketing, right?\n5 A. I did.\n6 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n7 Q. Right. And they could have been doing much more marketing\n8 but didn't, right?\n9 A. They could have done some marketing, but didn't.\n10 Q. Right. You felt like they did virtually none.\n11 A. Yes.\n12 Q. Okay. And the exchange was particularly diligent about not\n13 letting——withdrawn. Sorry.\n14 During your Wednesday meetings, which I believe were\n15 the compliance meetings, there were discussions about customer\n16 onboarding, right?\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. And at the committee——I'm sorry. Withdrawn.\n19 At those meetings, the compliance folks would assess\n20 the risk of onboarding particular customers, right?\n21 A. I'm not sure if that's accurate.\n22 Q. Okay. Well, what did the committee do with respect to\n23 onboarding or what——withdrawn.\n24 What did the committee do with respect to assessing\n25 the risk of particular customers?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. There's a process called regulatory mapping.\n2 Q. Mm-hmm.\n3 A. That's what we did.\n4 Q. Okay. And you would assign customers who you were doing a\n5 regulatory mapping for a risk score?\n6 A. Yes, yes.\n7 Q. And in your view, this process was a good way of being able\n8 to monitor who was buying and selling?\n9 A. Can you repeat that again.\n10 Q. And in your view, this risk scoring and regulatory mapping\n11 process was a good way of having the exchange track who was\n12 buying and selling.\n13 A. No, no. I don't see the correlation there.\n14 Q. Well, if only approved——withdrawn.\n15 Only approved customers can buy and sell on the\n16 exchange, right?\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. Okay. So in order to get onto the exchange, this\n19 regulatory mapping process was designed to allow only trusted\n20 customers onto the exchange, right?\n21 A. Yes, if you're referring to the risk scoring, yes. There\n22 were certain——yes.\n23 Q. Yeah. And again, that was another part, I think——you\n24 correct me if I'm wrong——in your view that was a bit overly\n25 restrictive, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. It was. It had flaws.\n2 Q. Okay. Now in the summer and fall of 2022, do you recall\n3 that new registrations for the exchange started to decline?\n4 A. I do recall that.\n5 Q. Okay. And in your view this was due in part to the lack of\n6 any marketing, right?\n7 A. That's fair.\n8 Q. And the problems with onboarding people, right?\n9 A. The problems had been solved with onboarding at that point.\n10 Q. But the excessive compliance, right?\n11 A. No. That had kind of been filtered down too to where it\n12 was——it was acceptable by me.\n13 Q. Okay. So in your view it really came down to no marketing\n14 that was being done by the exchange; that was responsible for\n15 the decline.\n16 A. No, that's not entirely true either.\n17 Q. Was it partially true?\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. Okay. Was another part of it that the crypto market was\n20 experiencing a contraction, so to speak?\n21 A. That was a small part of it, yes.\n22 Q. Okay. Now you testified on direct about the HCN launch in\n23 November of 2021, right?\n24 A. Yes.\n25 Q. And your role in that, right; your role in the launch?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Yes.\n2 Q. That's the video that we looked at, right?\n3 A. Yeah, yeah.\n4 Q. And you testified that you didn't like public speaking,\n5 right?\n6 A. Terrified.\n7 Q. Right. You're doing great so far today.\n8 But would you agree that we all have some aspects of\n9 our job that we don't like; fair to say?\n10 A. No. I think there's a few who love their job.\n11 Q. Okay. Most have aspects of their job that they don't like,\n12 right?\n13 MR. HORTON: Objection to relevance, your Honor.\n14 THE COURT: Sustained.\n15 Q. Now you remember telling the government that you were\n16 pretty upset that the launch of HCN took as long as it did?\n17 A. I'm not sure I used the word \"upset,\" but if I did, yes.\n18 Q. Okay. Well, I mean, you weren't particularly happy about\n19 how long it took, right?\n20 A. No. I thought——I thought that we could have come to market\n21 much quicker.\n22 Q. Okay. And actually, Mr. Je was unhappy too, right?\n23 A. Oh, yeah.\n24 Q. Yeah. About the pace, right?\n25 A. Oh, my, he was.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Okay. Yeah. I get it.\n2 And you understood that Mr. Je's focus was to get the\n3 exchange up and running on the credit system and then continue\n4 to develop it, right?\n5 A. That's fair.\n6 Q. That's——I'm sorry?\n7 A. That's fair.\n8 Q. That's fair, right? Okay. And you were continuing to\n9 develop it, and in particular, working on the Quorum private\n10 blockchain, right?\n11 A. Yes.\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Now if we could just please pull\n13 up GX 3401.\n14 And we don't need to play the video; just the still,\n15 please.\n16 This was I believe admitted on direct.\n17 Q. While we're waiting for that, I believe you testified on\n18 direct that you thought the exchange wasn't quite ready to\n19 launch, right?\n20 A. That's correct.\n21 Q. All right. And did you tell Mr. Je that you advised\n22 against launching?\n23 A. I did not.\n24 Q. Okay. And isn't it true that sometimes businesses launch\n25 and experience difficulty in their first weeks or months?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n2 THE COURT: Sustained.\n3 Q. Is it your experience that businesses, particularly\n4 startups, when they first launch, experience difficulties in\n5 the first weeks and months?\n6 MR. HORTON: Same objection.\n7 THE COURT: Sustained.\n8 Q. Okay. Now you remember——\n9 MR. SCHIRICK: Let's just leave that up. Sorry. Just\n10 the still.\n11 Q. Now you recall testifying that you believe you made false\n12 statements in this video, right?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. Okay. Because you said that Himalaya Exchange——withdrawn.\n15 You said in this video that the trading happened on\n16 the blockchain, and you believe that was misleading, right?\n17 A. I do.\n18 Q. Okay. Now you testified that you said that because you\n19 didn't want to disrupt the launch of HCN, right?\n20 A. Yes.\n21 Q. And you testified that you were just toeing the line, the\n22 company line, right?\n23 A. That's correct.\n24 Q. Okay. Now no one in marketing told you to say that the\n25 blockchain was going to be used for trading, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. No one told me——could you repeat that again.\n2 Q. Yeah. No one——I believe you testified that you got some\n3 guidance from marketing before this video?\n4 A. Yes.\n5 Q. Okay. So my question is: No one in marketing told you to\n6 say that the blockchain would be used for trading, right?\n7 A. That's correct.\n8 Q. Right. And in fact, we just looked at all these white\n9 papers that say that it's a credit system, right?\n10 A. Right.\n11 Q. Right. So people who had access to the internet could find\n12 that out, right?\n13 MR. HORTON: Objection. Calls for speculation.\n14 THE COURT: You can answer.\n15 A. Could you repeat that one more time.\n16 Q. Sure. If you had access to the internet and those white\n17 papers, you would know that the exchange used a credit system,\n18 not the blockchain, right?\n19 MR. HORTON: Objection as to what somebody else would\n20 know.\n21 THE COURT: Sustained.\n22 Q. Isn't it true that the white papers disclosed that the\n23 exchange ran on a credit system, as we talked about earlier?\n24 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, as the question indicated, we\n25 have been through this. We've talked about it.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 THE COURT: So you may ask him whether the document or\n2 documents say that. You can ask him whether he believed those\n3 words to be true.\n4 Q. You testified earlier that the white papers we looked at\n5 contained accurate statements about the exchange's use of a\n6 credit system, right?\n7 MR. HORTON: Objection. Cumulativeness, your Honor.\n8 THE COURT: Sustained. Are you speaking about\n9 portions of the white papers?\n10 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, the portions I'm referring\n11 to just relate to the HDO Credits, which is what I was focused\n12 on. Just asking about the HDO credit system.\n13 THE COURT: Well, then you would need to frame the\n14 question that way.\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: Sure.\n16 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n17 Q. So the white papers that we reviewed earlier accurately\n18 disclosed that the exchange used an HDO credit system, right?\n19 MR. HORTON: Objection. Mischaracterizes his\n20 testimony.\n21 THE COURT: So——\n22 MR. SCHIRICK: I didn't characterize his testimony. I\n23 just asked him if it accurately——\n24 THE COURT: You're asking for a legal conclusion. You\n25 can ask him whether they stated those things; you can ask him\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 whether they believed those things to be true.\n2 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay.\n3 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n4 Q. Did the white papers state that the exchange used an H——a\n5 credit system?\n6 A. They did.\n7 Q. Okay. And to be clear, no one told you that you couldn't\n8 say on the launch video that the exchange used a credit system,\n9 right?\n10 MR. HORTON: Asked and answered.\n11 THE COURT: Sustained.\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: Your Honor, I believe I asked the other\n13 question.\n14 THE COURT: All right. So then you can answer. Go\n15 ahead.\n16 A. Could you repeat it one more time, please.\n17 MR. SCHIRICK: Could the court reporter please read\n18 that back.\n19 THE COURT: Please.\n20 MR. SCHIRICK: Thank you.\n21 (Record read)\n22 A. That's true.\n23 Q. Right. So you said that, right? What you said wasn't\n24 directed by anyone else at the exchange, right?\n25 A. That's right.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Okay. Now we talked before about how users in the U.S.\n2 were restricted from using the exchange, right?\n3 A. Yes.\n4 Q. They were prohibited, actually, from using the exchange,\n5 right?\n6 A. Yes.\n7 Q. Okay. And you were not so happy about that, right?\n8 A. That's true. It's fair.\n9 Q. And you wanted to be able to participate in, again, to\n10 borrow your phrase, the fruits of your labor, right, by\n11 purchasing some HCN?\n12 A. No. I felt that a typical startup, the founders receive\n13 HCN without buying it.\n14 Q. Okay. So, forget the use of the word \"purchase.\" You\n15 expected to be granted some tokens for your work at the\n16 exchange, right?\n17 A. Yeah, that's fair.\n18 Q. Right. And you were frustrated that you didn't get any,\n19 right?\n20 A. Yeah, that's fair too.\n21 Q. Okay. And you were frustrated because others did get some,\n22 right, and you didn't?\n23 A. Accurate.\n24 Q. Okay. And isn't it true that you actually tried to get\n25 your father-in-law signed up to be able to purchase some\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 tokens?\n2 A. Yes, yes, we did try that.\n3 Q. Okay. And it's because your father-in-law had a Venezuelan\n4 ID, right?\n5 A. He had a——he had a expired Venezuelan ID. That's why he\n6 was unable to purchase it.\n7 Q. Sure. And that's what happened, right? So you tried to\n8 have him register with the exchange using that expired ID,\n9 right?\n10 A. Right.\n11 Q. And in fact, you encountered issues, right?\n12 A. Yes.\n13 Q. You encountered issues because of that KYC process we\n14 talked about before, right?\n15 A. That's right.\n16 Q. And then you actually had him call the 24/7 hotline that we\n17 talked about, right?\n18 A. The customer service line.\n19 Q. Customer service line. Thank you. You had him call the\n20 customer service line?\n21 A. Yes.\n22 Q. And tried to work these issues out so that he could\n23 register to buy HCN, right?\n24 A. I did.\n25 Q. And ultimately it turned out, as you said, that the ID was\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 no longer valid, right?\n2 A. That's right.\n3 Q. And he couldn't; he couldn't purchase them, right?\n4 A. That's right.\n5 Q. Okay. So you wanted to purchase them and you wanted to——\n6 A. No. I didn't want to purchase them.\n7 Q. Fair. You wanted to be granted them, right?\n8 A. Can you——\n9 Q. You testified before you expected a grant of HCN, right?\n10 A. A grant?\n11 Q. A grant, that you were given HCN.\n12 A. Oh, yes, yes.\n13 Q. Right. So you expected a grant of HCN, and when that\n14 didn't work, you tried to go through your father-in-law to\n15 purchase HCN.\n16 A. No, that's not——that's not true. My father-in-law wanted\n17 to purchase HCN.\n18 Q. Oh, okay. Your father-in-law wanted to purchase HCN.\n19 A. Yeah. It was $20 at that point. I wanted no part of it.\n20 Q. Okay. Now at the point in time where you expected to have\n21 these tokens and were upset you didn't get them, you couldn't\n22 have thought the tokens were all that bad, right?\n23 A. At $20, they were.\n24 Q. Well, that's relative, right? You didn't want to pay $20\n25 for it.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. They were drastically overpriced.\n2 Q. When they were first launched, you wanted them, at that\n3 price, fair?\n4 A. That's fair.\n5 Q. Okay. How bad could they have been then? Couldn't have\n6 been that bad, right?\n7 A. No, no.\n8 Q. Right. Wasn't that bad of a product, right?\n9 A. No, it wasn't a bad product.\n10 Q. Okay. Now let's talk about——\n11 MR. SCHIRICK: I'm sorry, your Honor. If I may just\n12 have a moment.\n13 THE COURT: Yes.\n14 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Thank you.\n15 Q. Now, Mr. Brown, you recall testifying on direct about\n16 something called Hummingbot?\n17 A. I do.\n18 Q. Okay. And I think you testified that you were told by\n19 David Fallon about Hummingbot, right?\n20 A. That's correct.\n21 Q. And David Fallon was a senior person at Hamilton.\n22 A. He was.\n23 Q. Okay. And you testified that the bot is used in low-volume\n24 situations, right?\n25 A. That's one of its use cases.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Right. There's other use cases, right?\n2 A. Yes.\n3 Q. Okay. And Hummingbot is what, is referred to as an\n4 automated matching engine, right?\n5 A. Yes.\n6 Q. It's an algorithmic trading tool, right?\n7 A. That's right.\n8 Q. And was everything that you knew about Hummingbot at this\n9 point in time based on what Mr. Fallon told you?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. Okay. And Hummingbot really just matches buyers and\n12 sellers, right; that's what it does?\n13 A. I'm not——I'm not sure that——\n14 Q. So you're not sure what Hummingbot does.\n15 A. Well, I'm not sure that accurately describes it.\n16 Q. You're not sure if its only use case is in low-volume\n17 situations, right?\n18 A. No, I'm not sure if it matches buyers and sellers.\n19 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to ask a different question. You're\n20 not sure that Hummingbot's only use case is in low-volume\n21 situations, right?\n22 A. Right.\n23 Q. Right. It could have other use cases.\n24 A. It could.\n25 Q. Right. And so it's possible that Hummingbot was used for\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 something else other than related to a low-volume situation at\n2 the exchange, right?\n3 THE COURT: Don't ask him hypotheticals.\n4 Q. Are you aware that Hummingbot is what's called open-source\n5 software?\n6 A. I am.\n7 Q. All right. Now you also testified on direct about an SEC\n8 settlement. Do you remember that?\n9 A. I do.\n10 Q. Okay. And the fact that you raised the GTV settlement in a\n11 meeting at the exchange, right?\n12 A. That's right.\n13 Q. Okay. At this point the SEC settlement was public, right?\n14 A. It was.\n15 Q. Okay. And you testified about certain people's reactions\n16 when you raised this issue in the meeting, right?\n17 A. That's right.\n18 Q. Okay. And you testified in particular about the head of\n19 legal's reaction, right?\n20 A. That's right.\n21 Q. Okay. Now to be clear, you're just speculating about what\n22 she knew or didn't know, right? You don't know for sure.\n23 A. Could you repeat that?\n24 Q. When you testified about what you read into her reaction,\n25 you were speculating, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Yeah, right.\n2 Q. Yeah. You were speculating, right? I mean, you can't know\n3 what's in her head. That's how at least telepathy works these\n4 days, in that it doesn't work.\n5 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n6 THE COURT: Overruled.\n7 A. Yeah, yeah, I can't read minds.\n8 Q. Right. Okay. And you testified that you didn't ask\n9 William Je about it, right?\n10 A. Right.\n11 Q. Okay. You were also shown a document that was marked\n12 GX C405.\n13 MR. SCHIRICK: Can we please pull that up and——\n14 Q. Okay. And you testified that you saw this video at some\n15 point, right? I'm sorry. Withdrawn. That you testified that\n16 you saw this article at some point, right?\n17 A. No.\n18 MR. HORTON: Objection. Yeah, misstates the\n19 testimony.\n20 THE COURT: Sustained.\n21 Q. Okay. Did you see this live broadcast at some point?\n22 A. I've never seen a live broadcast, no.\n23 Q. You read an article summarizing it, right?\n24 A. Yes.\n25 Q. Okay. Now when you read that article, you didn't raise\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 this issue with Mr. Je, right?\n2 A. I hadn't seen this article until recently.\n3 Q. Ah. So you hadn't seen this article at the time, right?\n4 A. That's right.\n5 Q. You hadn't even seen this article while you were still\n6 working at the exchange, right?\n7 A. That's right.\n8 Q. You saw this article in preparation for your testimony?\n9 A. That's correct.\n10 Q. Okay. So there was no way you could have raised whatever\n11 Mr. Guo was saying in this article with folks at the exchange,\n12 right?\n13 A. Not this article.\n14 Q. Right. Okay. Now I'd just like to talk briefly about\n15 Armanino. Do you recognize the name of that company?\n16 A. I do.\n17 Q. Okay. And who were they?\n18 A. They're a Silicon Valley auditing group.\n19 Q. Okay. And were you involved in the decision to hire them?\n20 A. I was not.\n21 Q. Okay. And what was their role?\n22 A. I believe it was to audit the coins.\n23 Q. Okay. And they conducted in particular an audit of the HDO\n24 reserves, right?\n25 A. They did.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. And if we can just bring up\n2 GX BR208, please. 208A.\n3 And just go to the next page.\n4 Q. Now you recall being asked some questions about this on\n5 direct?\n6 A. I do, counsel.\n7 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that HDO——withdrawn.\n8 Is it your understanding that this report that we're\n9 looking at here relates to just HDO?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. Okay. Doesn't relate to HCN, right?\n12 A. Right.\n13 Q. Okay. And this is an audit of the cash reserves backing\n14 the HDO Credits, right?\n15 A. That's right.\n16 Q. Okay. And would you agree with me that this document\n17 shows——this document, which is in evidence, shows that the\n18 dollar reserves exceed the total amount of HDO Credits in\n19 circulation; that is, the top number is bigger than the bottom,\n20 than the number on the second line?\n21 A. I agree with that.\n22 Q. Okay. Now you were asked questions about whether this\n23 document reflected any holdings of gold. Do you recall that?\n24 A. I do.\n25 Q. Okay. There's no reason that this document would show any\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 holdings in gold, right?\n2 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n3 Q. Well, we just established that it's an audit of the cash\n4 reserves, so the question is: There's no reason that gold\n5 would be reflected here.\n6 THE COURT: You prepared this document.\n7 MR. SCHIRICK: No. This is an auditor's report, your\n8 Honor.\n9 THE COURT: This is an auditor's report.\n10 MR. SCHIRICK: Yes.\n11 THE COURT: You're asking him whether an auditor\n12 should include gold on the document?\n13 MR. SCHIRICK: No. We established with the previous\n14 questions, your Honor, that this report reflects cash reserves.\n15 So my question is, he wouldn't expect to see gold on here\n16 because it's cash only.\n17 MR. HORTON: Objection. That misstates the testimony.\n18 MR. SCHIRICK: I didn't ask him about his testimony.\n19 MR. HORTON: Mr. Schirick stated that something was\n20 established. That misstates the testimony.\n21 THE COURT: You can ask him what he expected in the\n22 auditor's report.\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. I'll move on. That's fine, your\n24 Honor.\n25 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Do you know in fact whether HCN was backed by any gold?\n2 A. I'm not privy to any——any gold being held at any time.\n3 Q. Okay. You just don't know. You wouldn't have had access\n4 to that, right?\n5 A. I probably would have known that if we ever had gold, yes.\n6 Q. You testified before that you were denied access to all\n7 kinds of information, right?\n8 A. Yes, but early on, there was discussions about gold——\n9 Q. Right.\n10 A. ——and the——what was going to happen then is the gold is\n11 going to be kept in a third-party custodian and it was going to\n12 have a live feed to it——\n13 Q. Okay.\n14 A. ——that was a public feed, so I would have had to have\n15 private access.\n16 Q. Let's talk about the gold for a second.\n17 MR. HORTON: Objection. Excuse me. Objection to\n18 cutting off the witness's answer to counsel's question.\n19 THE COURT: Don't cut off the witness.\n20 MR. SCHIRICK: I'm sorry. I didn't realize.\n21 Apologies.\n22 MR. HORTON: Can the witness finish the answer.\n23 THE COURT: Would you read back the portion of the\n24 answer that he gave, and then you can add if you were indeed\n25 cut off.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 (Record read)\n2 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, that's accurate.\n3 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n4 Q. Okay. So let's just talk about the gold for a second.\n5 Was it your understanding that the original intention\n6 was to have HCN's——withdrawn.\n7 Was it your understanding that the original intention\n8 was to have 10 percent of the original value of HCN in gold\n9 reserves?\n10 A. That's correct.\n11 Q. Okay. It didn't have anything to do with HDO, right?\n12 A. Right.\n13 Q. Right. Just HCN.\n14 A. Correct.\n15 Q. And just HCN's value at launch, right?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. And just 10 percent, right?\n18 A. Yes.\n19 Q. Okay. Now have you ever heard of something called Sharps\n20 Pixley?\n21 A. I don't believe I have.\n22 Q. Okay. You also testified on direct about some seizures\n23 that took place, right?\n24 A. Yes.\n25 Q. And you were asked whether you knew if the exchange\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 informed its customers about the seizure, right?\n2 A. Yes.\n3 Q. And were you aware that the exchange challenged the\n4 seizure?\n5 A. I was aware of that.\n6 Q. That it hired lawyers to litigate the seizure?\n7 A. Yes.\n8 Q. Right. And the fact of the seizure was public knowledge,\n9 to your understanding, right?\n10 A. I'm not sure I understood it was public knowledge.\n11 Q. Did you ever take the time to Google it?\n12 A. No.\n13 Q. Did you ever look it up on a court docket?\n14 A. I did not.\n15 Q. Okay. Now you also testified about a loan and a yacht,\n16 right?\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. Okay. And you were asked some questions about that, right?\n19 A. That's correct.\n20 Q. Okay. Now Mr. Je was the ultimate beneficial owner of\n21 Himalaya, right?\n22 A. That's right.\n23 Q. Okay. And as the ultimate beneficial owner of Himalaya, if\n24 he wanted to make a loan, he simply needed to follow the right\n25 procedures to be able to make a loan, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Yes.\n2 Q. Right. And he followed the right procedures, to your\n3 understanding, right?\n4 A. That's correct.\n5 Q. He brought it up for a vote to the board, right?\n6 A. That's——I'm not sure. I believe it was a committee. I'm\n7 not sure it was a board.\n8 Q. Okay. So a committee, he brought it up for a vote to the\n9 committee.\n10 A. Yeah.\n11 Q. And the committee deliberated, right?\n12 A. That's right.\n13 Q. And then the committee approved it, right?\n14 A. That's right.\n15 Q. Okay. Now sitting here today, you don't understand what\n16 exactly that loan was for, do you?\n17 A. I do. I do. I do understand what that loan was for.\n18 Q. Do you understand that the loan was not to purchase a\n19 yacht? Do you understand that?\n20 A. I do not understand that, no.\n21 Q. Okay. Now you also testified on direct about the Chinese\n22 Communist Party. Do you remember that?\n23 A. Yes.\n24 Q. Okay. And I believe you testified——and you'll correct me\n25 if I'm wrong——that you didn't think that the Himalaya Exchange\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 had anything to do with being anti-CCP, right?\n2 A. The exchange, no.\n3 Q. Okay. And do you recall telling the government during your\n4 interviews with them that you understood that the CCP\n5 whistleblower movement was the basis for everything? Do you\n6 recall that?\n7 A. I do not recall that.\n8 Q. Okay. Let's see if we can refresh your recollection.\n9 MR. SCHIRICK: If we could please bring up 3506, at\n10 11. And again, just for the witness and the parties and the\n11 Court.\n12 Q. Okay. Is that displayed on your screen, Mr. Brown?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. Okay. And we'll highlight it, and then just please read it\n15 to yourself, not aloud.\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: And you can keep going, Jorge.\n17 Q. Okay. Now does that refresh your recollection that you\n18 told the government that the whole CCP whistleblower thing was\n19 the basis for everything?\n20 A. It does.\n21 Q. Okay. And in fact, William Je would talk about the\n22 anti-CCP whistleblower movement at Hamilton, right?\n23 A. Yes, he would.\n24 Q. Right. And he told you about it, right?\n25 A. He did.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. Right. So you understood in fact that about 2/3 of the\n2 exchange's customers were based in China, right, based on\n3 information that was made available to you?\n4 A. They were.\n5 Q. Right? And that was the market, right, the main market?\n6 A. 2/3 of the market.\n7 Q. Right. So your testimony earlier today wasn't correct,\n8 right?\n9 A. I'm——I'm——I'm not sure, I'm not sure what——\n10 Q. You testified earlier today that the anti-CCP movement had\n11 nothing to do with the exchange, and then we just read, and you\n12 just testified, that the anti-CCP movement was the basis of the\n13 whole thing.\n14 MR. HORTON: Objection. That's not a question.\n15 Q. Right?\n16 THE COURT: So I haven't——oh, okay.\n17 MR. SCHIRICK: There we go.\n18 THE COURT: That was the question, comma, right?\n19 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, it's an argument from\n20 counsel.\n21 MR. SCHIRICK: It's two sets of testimony, your Honor.\n22 I'm asking——\n23 THE COURT: You can ask the question, and you can\n24 answer.\n25 MR. SCHIRICK: Could the court reporter please read\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 back the question.\n2 (Record read)\n3 A. Yes, but there's a distinction there. Himalaya Exchange\n4 and everything that Miles Guo was saying on social media.\n5 Q. Okay. So just to be clear, your testimony here is that the\n6 anti-CCP movement and the whistleblower movement had nothing to\n7 do with the exchange; you're sticking with that.\n8 A. I'm sticking with the exchange was nonpolitical, yes.\n9 Q. Okay. Now are you aware of something called a DDoS attack?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. Okay. What's that?\n12 A. That's when the servers for your web entities are attacked\n13 to try to knock you off line.\n14 Q. Right. Okay. Now did the exchange experience DDoS\n15 attacks?\n16 A. Yes.\n17 Q. Yeah. How many would you say, if you can count?\n18 A. I'm not sure of the real numbers. I'm not sure of the——of\n19 the hard numbers.\n20 Q. Okay. But it was an issue for the exchange, right?\n21 A. It wasn't an issue because we had protections in place.\n22 Q. Right. Well, Azeem, the security guy, was pretty focused\n23 on the potential for DDoS attacks, right?\n24 A. He was.\n25 Q. Or other bad-party or bad-actor attacks, right?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. Correct.\n2 Q. Did you understand that that had anything to do with the\n3 anti-CCP whistleblower movement, based on your time at the\n4 exchange?\n5 A. It was talked about.\n6 Q. Right. It was talked about as perhaps being why the\n7 exchange was targeted, right?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. Yeah. Right?\n10 A. Yeah.\n11 Q. Okay. And did you hire vendors to analyze the DDoS\n12 attacks? When I say you, I mean the exchange.\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. And did one of these DDoS attacks happen in June of 2022,\n15 if you recall?\n16 A. I don't recall.\n17 Q. Okay. Now you left the exchange in January of 2023, right?\n18 A. That's right.\n19 Q. Okay. And after you left the Himalaya Exchange, did you\n20 solicit Mr. Je for an investment in a new project you were\n21 working on?\n22 A. I did.\n23 Q. Okay. And did you send him an agreement asking him for an\n24 investment?\n25 A. I did.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 Q. And how much money were you looking for?\n2 A. I don't recall.\n3 Q. Was it more or less than a hundred thousand dollars?\n4 A. I'm going to say more.\n5 Q. Was it more or less than a half a million dollars?\n6 A. Probably right around there.\n7 Q. Okay. And you discussed this investment with him?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. Potential investment with him?\n10 A. Yes, yes.\n11 Q. Yeah. But he never ended up getting back to you, right?\n12 A. He didn't.\n13 Q. Okay. All right. Now is it fair to say that in the two\n14 months before you resigned from the exchange, you continued to\n15 work on the long-term goals of the exchange?\n16 A. I don't think so. I kind of checked out by then.\n17 Q. So you were just collecting a paycheck?\n18 A. Pretty much.\n19 Q. Okay. So you don't recall whether, in December 2022 and\n20 January 2023, you were continuing to work on things like the\n21 merchant portal?\n22 A. I don't recall the merchant portal.\n23 Q. Okay. Or any self-custody options that may have been——\n24 A. Yeah, self-custody options.\n25 Q. Okay. All right. And what about HEU? Do you know what\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 that is?\n2 A. Please——please state that again?\n3 Q. Sure. What about HEU?\n4 A. HEU. HEU. Oh, that——I believe that would have been\n5 Himalaya Euro.\n6 Q. Right. So it was another stablecoin that the exchange\n7 planned to offer, right?\n8 A. Yes.\n9 Q. Right. Another token that it was going to add to the\n10 tokens available for trading on the exchange.\n11 A. Yes.\n12 Q. Right. And even though you may have stopped working on the\n13 exchange's long-term goals, is it your understanding that other\n14 people at the exchange continued to work on those long-term\n15 goals?\n16 MR. HORTON: Objection.\n17 MR. SCHIRICK: During his time.\n18 THE COURT: You can say what you observed.\n19 MR. HORTON: Objection. The question was about after\n20 he had departed.\n21 THE COURT: I did not hear you.\n22 MR. HORTON: I said the question was about after he\n23 departed, so——\n24 MR. SCHIRICK: No. The question was——and I'm happy to\n25 rephrase.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n2 Q. The question was: During the end of your tenure, while you\n3 were still there, even if you were checked out and just\n4 collecting a paycheck, as you testified, were other people at\n5 the exchange still working on the long-term goals of the\n6 exchange?\n7 A. That's fair.\n8 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Brown, you met with the government lawyers\n9 on a number of occasions before your testimony here today?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 Q. And how many times, if you recall?\n12 A. I believe it was four; four or five times.\n13 Q. And would you be surprised to learn that in fact it was\n14 nine times——including this morning, a total of ten?\n15 A. No, not surprised.\n16 Q. Okay. Sounds about right, right?\n17 A. It sounds——it sounds like more, but——\n18 Q. I'm sorry?\n19 A. It sounds like more, but——\n20 Q. Yeah, okay. Now in addition to the times that you met with\n21 the government lawyers, your lawyer also had separate\n22 conversations with them, right?\n23 A. Yes.\n24 Q. Okay. And your lawyer would——withdrawn.\n25 I'm going to just caution you to be careful. I don't\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 want you to tell me about any communications that you had with\n2 your lawyer, okay? I don't want you to recount those\n3 conversations, okay? Does that make sense?\n4 A. It does.\n5 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that your lawyer would report back\n6 to you on his conversations with the government?\n7 A. Yeah, that's fair to say.\n8 Q. Okay. Now did a time come when you reached an agreement\n9 with the government concerning its nonprosecution of you?\n10 A. Yes.\n11 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. If I may just have a moment,\n12 your Honor.\n13 Okay. Could we please show the witness what's been\n14 marked as DX 60657.\n15 Not the jury, just the witness.\n16 MR. HORTON: Your Honor, we have no objection to its\n17 admission.\n18 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. We move its admission, your\n19 Honor.\n20 THE COURT: It is admitted.\n21 (Defendant's Exhibit 60657 received in evidence)\n22 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n23 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Brown, do you recognize this as the\n24 nonprosecution agreement that you reached with the government\n25 here?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 A. I do.\n2 Q. Okay. Now I believe you testified at the beginning of your\n3 direct that you believed this agreement covered you for your\n4 involvement with Guo Media. Do you recall that?\n5 A. Yes.\n6 Q. Does Guo Media appear anywhere in this first paragraph?\n7 A. It does not.\n8 Q. Okay. So Guo Media was not included in this agreement,\n9 right? You were just mistaken about that?\n10 A. I was mistaken.\n11 Q. Okay. Now this agreement covers you for your time working\n12 at GTV Media and the Himalaya Exchange, right?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. Okay. For the period June 2020 to January 2023.\n15 A. That's correct.\n16 Q. Right. And do you believe that you committed any crimes\n17 during that time?\n18 A. I do.\n19 Q. And is the crime that you're referring to the false\n20 statements that you made in the video?\n21 A. Yes.\n22 Q. And those crimes were your crimes, right?\n23 A. Yes.\n24 Q. Because, as we covered before, no one told you to say what\n25 you said on those videos; no one from the Himalaya Exchange\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Cross\n1 told you to say what you said in those videos, right?\n2 A. No one told me what to say on the videos, no.\n3 Q. Right. Those words were your own; they weren't the\n4 Himalaya Exchange's words, they weren't——right? No one at the\n5 Himalaya Exchange——withdrawn.\n6 Those words were your words, right?\n7 A. They were.\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. Now if we can please flip to the\n9 second page.\n10 Q. Now who do you understand——withdrawn.\n11 You understand, I believe you testified on direct,\n12 that as long as you tell the truth today, you will get the\n13 benefit of this nonprosecution agreement, right?\n14 A. Yes.\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. And if we just blow up the\n16 second to last paragraph there on the first sentence.\n17 Q. And it reads, \"It is understood that if the government has\n18 determined that Brown has committed any crime after signing\n19 this agreement. . .\" Do you see that?\n20 A. I do.\n21 Q. Okay. Now who gets to determine whether you tell the truth\n22 here today?\n23 A. I determine if I'm telling the truth.\n24 Q. Who gets to determine whether this agreement remains in\n25 force?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect\n1 A. The government.\n2 Q. Right. And if the government determines that you've lied,\n3 then they can rip it up, right?\n4 A. That's true.\n5 Q. Right. So it's the government that determines whether you\n6 told the truth here today, right?\n7 MR. HORTON: Objection. Asked and answered.\n8 THE COURT: You may answer.\n9 A. The facts determine if I tell the truth.\n10 Q. At the end of the day, some human being is going to judge\n11 those facts, right?\n12 A. That's correct.\n13 Q. And who are the human beings who get to judge those facts?\n14 The folks sitting right here, right?\n15 A. No, that's——\n16 MR. HORTON: Objection, your Honor.\n17 THE COURT: All righty. Sustained.\n18 MR. SCHIRICK: If I can have a moment, your Honor?\n19 THE COURT: Yes.\n20 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. No further questions at this\n21 time.\n22 THE COURT: Redirect?\n23 REDIRECT EXAMINATION\n24 BY MR. HORTON:\n25 Q. Mr. Brown, you testified earlier that when you spoke in\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect\n1 public on behalf of the exchange, you were toeing the company\n2 line. Do you remember that?\n3 A. I do.\n4 Q. Where did you get the company line?\n5 A. Well, the company line was spoken about in meetings and,\n6 you know, what was proper to say and what wasn't.\n7 Q. And the things you said in the interviews in public, was\n8 that consistent with the company line?\n9 A. It was.\n10 Q. Who arranged those interviews for you?\n11 A. Marketing did.\n12 Q. And who did marketing report to?\n13 A. William Je.\n14 Q. You were asked some questions on cross about other people\n15 at the Himalaya Exchange getting access to H Coin. Do you\n16 remember that?\n17 A. I do.\n18 Q. Did those people get access to H Coin before the launch or\n19 after it?\n20 I'll withdraw that.\n21 When was the private placement?\n22 A. It was before the launch.\n23 Q. And did anybody at the Himalaya Exchange get access to H\n24 Coin in the private placement?\n25 A. Everyone had an opportunity to get the coin in the private\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect\n1 placement.\n2 Q. Did you?\n3 A. No.\n4 Q. And what price did people at the exchange, other than you,\n5 get access to H Coin at the private placement?\n6 A. 10 cents.\n7 Q. Was that before the launch or after the launch?\n8 A. Before the launch.\n9 Q. Was there anyone outside the exchange who had access to H\n10 Coin at 10 cents at that time?\n11 A. People involved in the private placement.\n12 Q. And was anybody involved——let me ask this: Were there\n13 people involved in the private placement who didn't work at the\n14 exchange?\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, foundation.\n16 THE COURT: You can answer.\n17 A. Yes.\n18 Q. And who were those people?\n19 A. Those were individual investors.\n20 Q. And how did they get that access?\n21 A. It was granted to them by William.\n22 Q. And what happened to the 10-cent price of H Coin after the\n23 people you are talking about got access?\n24 A. After the launch?\n25 Q. That's right.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect\n1 A. Yes, after the launch the price spiked.\n2 Q. From 10 cents to what?\n3 A. It went to 1 dollar immediately when I was doing the\n4 interview, and it went to $20 in two weeks, and it eventually\n5 got up to close to 60-something dollars, I believe.\n6 Q. And what, if anything, did that mean for the value of H\n7 Coin that was given to the insiders you mentioned?\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, form.\n9 THE COURT: Sustained.\n10 Q. What, if anything, did that mean, Mr. Brown, for the value\n11 of the H Coin that was given to certain people at 10 cents?\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.\n13 THE COURT: Are you asking him an arithmetical\n14 question?\n15 MR. HORTON: I'm asking him what the later price spike\n16 meant for the value of the coins that were granted earlier on;\n17 what his understanding was of what that meant.\n18 I can move on, your Honor.\n19 BY MR. HORTON:\n20 Q. You were asked some questions on cross about the Himalaya\n21 Exchange's statements that it made about credits and crypto.\n22 You remember that?\n23 A. I do.\n24 Q. Were H Coin credits crypto?\n25 A. They were not.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect\n1 Q. Why not?\n2 A. Because they weren't on the blockchain.\n3 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor. It goes back to\n4 the sidebar earlier.\n5 THE COURT: Overruled.\n6 Q. Were H Dollar credits crypto?\n7 A. They were not.\n8 Q. Why not?\n9 A. They weren't on the blockchain.\n10 Q. And when, if ever, could Himalaya Exchange customers buy H\n11 dollars on the blockchain?\n12 A. Never during my tenure.\n13 Q. And when, if ever, could Himalaya customers buy H Coin on\n14 the blockchain?\n15 A. Never during my tenure, counsel.\n16 Q. You were asked a series of questions about what it's like\n17 for customers at other cryptocurrency exchanges. Do you\n18 remember that?\n19 A. I do.\n20 Q. When, if ever, was H Coin listed at another cryptocurrency\n21 exchange?\n22 A. It——it never was.\n23 Q. And when, if ever, was H Dollar listed on another\n24 cryptocurrency exchange?\n25 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, slow down.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect\n1 MR. HORTON: Fair enough.\n2 Q. Mr. Brown, when, if ever, were customers able to buy H\n3 Dollar at another cryptocurrency exchange?\n4 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. During his time at the\n5 exchange?\n6 THE COURT: You may answer.\n7 A. Never.\n8 Q. You were asked some questions on cross about the\n9 distribution of the white papers. Do you remember that?\n10 A. I do.\n11 Q. Did Long Island David give out the white paper?\n12 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n13 THE COURT: Overruled.\n14 Q. The question was: Did Long Island David give out the\n15 Himalaya Exchange white paper?\n16 A. I'm not sure who Long Island David is.\n17 Q. Did David Dai in the UK give out the white paper?\n18 A. David Fallon?\n19 Q. Oh, no. Did David Dai, in the UK, did he give out the\n20 white paper?\n21 A. No.\n22 Q. Did the Phoenix Farm give out the white paper?\n23 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection, your Honor. Assumes facts\n24 not in evidence.\n25 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect\n1 A. No.\n2 Q. Did Minran Wu get a copy of the white paper?\n3 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Foundation. There's no way\n4 he can know that.\n5 THE COURT: You may answer if you know.\n6 A. I'm not sure who that is or if they got a copy of it.\n7 Q. Did the Mountain of Spices Farm distribute the white paper?\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.\n9 THE COURT: You may answer.\n10 A. Not that I know of.\n11 Q. What about the UK Farm, did they distribute the white\n12 paper?\n13 A. Not that I know of.\n14 MR. SCHIRICK: Same objection.\n15 Q. Did the G Translators translate the white paper?\n16 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n17 THE COURT: If you know, you may answer.\n18 A. I'm not sure who translated the white paper. I think it\n19 was our customer service team.\n20 Q. Did the Iron Blood Group distribute the white paper?\n21 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n22 THE COURT: You can answer if you know.\n23 A. Well, I don't know.\n24 Q. Do you know if Miles Guo distributed these white papers to\n25 his followers?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Redirect\n1 A. I don't know that.\n2 MR. HORTON: Could I have a moment, your Honor.\n3 THE COURT: Yes.\n4 Q. You were asked questions on cross about a second\n5 conversation you had with Yvette Wang. Do you remember that?\n6 A. Yes.\n7 Q. What was she calling you about?\n8 A. She was calling me to try to push the development team to\n9 connect the ecosystem of Miles Guo's entities.\n10 Q. Who did Yvette Wang work for?\n11 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n12 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer if you know.\n13 A. I believe it was GTV or G Groups.\n14 Q. And who controlled GTV?\n15 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection.\n16 THE COURT: You can answer if you know.\n17 A. Miles Guo did.\n18 MR. HORTON: Just one moment, your Honor.\n19 Q. Mr. Brown, in your two and a half years at the Himalaya\n20 Exchange, did it hold gold?\n21 A. Not to my——\n22 MR. SCHIRICK: Objection. Asked and answered.\n23 THE COURT: Overruled.\n24 A. Not to my knowledge.\n25 Q. In your time at the Himalaya Exchange, was H Coin backed by\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - Recross\n1 gold?\n2 A. It was not; not to my knowledge.\n3 Q. The live feed of gold that you mentioned in response to\n4 Mr. Schirick's questions, did that ever happen?\n5 A. Never saw it.\n6 MR. HORTON: No further questions.\n7 THE COURT: Recross?\n8 MR. SCHIRICK: Very briefly, your Honor.\n9 RECROSS EXAMINATION\n10 BY MR. SCHIRICK:\n11 Q. Mr. Horton just listed a whole bunch of peoples and\n12 entities, right?\n13 A. Yes.\n14 Q. Right? Do you have any idea who those people are?\n15 A. I hadn't heard of them, no.\n16 Q. Yeah. Do you have any idea whether they received a copy of\n17 the white paper or not?\n18 A. I don't.\n19 Q. Yeah. But it's true that the white papers, in your\n20 understanding, were posted to the internet, correct?\n21 A. Yes.\n22 Q. Okay. Do you know if any of those people he listed have\n23 access to the internet?\n24 A. Could you repeat that?\n25 Q. Do you know if any of the people that he listed have access\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6\n1 to the internet?\n2 A. I do not know that.\n3 MR. SCHIRICK: Okay. No further questions.\n4 MR. HORTON: Nothing further. Thank you.\n5 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step out.\n6 (Witness excused)\n7 THE COURT: Members of the jury, it's now 4:59. So we\n8 have finished our work for the week. You'll be coming back on\n9 Monday, and we will revert to our prior schedule where you'll\n10 be able to leave at 2:45. So I want you to be ready to come in\n11 on Monday into the courtroom at 9:30.\n12 I also want to remind you about our schedule going\n13 forward. During the week of June 24th, next week, we have no\n14 court on Friday. So it's just four days. And the following\n15 week, we only are in on Tuesday and Wednesday, the 2nd and the\n16 3rd of July.\n17 So I wish you a good weekend. Remember that you're\n18 not allowed to discuss the case amongst yourselves or with\n19 anyone else. Don't permit anyone to discuss the case in your\n20 presence. Don't read, listen to, or watch anything from any\n21 source that touches on the subject matter of this case.\n22 Have a good weekend.\n23 (Jury not present)\n24 THE COURT: You may be seated.\n25 Is there anything before we break for the weekend?\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6\n1 MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, I just want to temper now\n2 what I said this morning, in light of this afternoon's pacing.\n3 We had anticipated in our projection to accomplish another\n4 three witnesses today, two of which are short, one of which is,\n5 I would say, a medium-length witness, probably along the lines\n6 of the Mahwah special agent. Not short but not really long\n7 either. The cross today was very long——much longer than the\n8 direct. We would ask the Court to consider sitting a full day\n9 on Tuesday to ensure that the government——what the government\n10 hopes to do is rest on Tuesday. We think that will help pick\n11 up the time. There are a number of witnesses that are left,\n12 many of which we think are short, but we don't know how long\n13 the crosses are going to be. And our projection of the cross\n14 for this particular witness was clearly wrong. I think\n15 Mr. Schirick said he had 45 minutes left at the lunch break.\n16 That didn't prove to be the case either. That happens; we\n17 understand. But to stick to the Tuesday, we might need more\n18 time.\n19 I just want to keep the Court informed of where we are\n20 in terms of progress. That's all.\n21 THE COURT: So I'm not opposed to asking the jurors if\n22 they can stay until 5 on Tuesday. So why don't we see where we\n23 are on Monday.\n24 MR. FINKEL: That makes sense to the government, your\n25 Honor. Just so your Honor understands, from the government's\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6\n1 perspective, it's not just about when the government rests.\n2 The defense has a case, as they are entitled, and we're trying\n3 to predict the length of their case, also the possibility that\n4 the defendant chooses to testify, and sort of where that puts\n5 us with the date that the Court told the jury of July 12th, I\n6 think, if I have that right, plus the days off. So that's the\n7 government's thinking, and we appreciate the Court's indulgence\n8 on that and wish your Honor a good weekend.\n9 THE COURT: Anything from the defense?\n10 MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, I believe that Mr. Kamaraju\n11 has communicated that the defense case is not long, and we're\n12 kind of confused as to why the government keeps thinking that\n13 we are going to exceed our time slot. We fully anticipate\n14 being on track with the trial end date that the Court has told\n15 the jurors. I do not believe we need to change the schedule.\n16 But I think that there is no concern from the defense side of\n17 the case, and I'm trying to assuage that for the Court. We do\n18 not believe it will be a long case. We've said this several\n19 times before, and we reiterate it here. And should that\n20 change, we will let the Court know immediately as well.\n21 Thank you, your Honor.\n22 MR. FINKEL: Your Honor, I have talked with defense\n23 counsel about the case, and their estimate is that it ends on\n24 July 3rd, without the defendant testifying, right? If the\n25 defendant testifies, that's going to change things, obviously.\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6\n1 But we also have their witness list, and it doesn't look like a\n2 four-day defense case. If there are witnesses that the defense\n3 has scratched off the list, some they told us about, some we\n4 agreed to scratch off as part of stipulation negotiations, but\n5 there are a lot who are still pending, and if they already know\n6 that they're not calling them, we'd ask that they tell us today\n7 who they're not going to call.\n8 MS. SHROFF: Your Honor, to the extent that we have\n9 any additional information, I'm sure we will be able to\n10 communicate that to them. But again, the defense does not\n11 anticipate this trial going beyond the time told to the jurors.\n12 I just reiterate that. It's been a long week, your Honor, and\n13 if we have any updated information, we're happy to pass it\n14 along.\n15 THE COURT: All right then.\n16 MS. SHROFF: Thank you.\n17 THE COURT: On Monday, at 11:30, I will revisit this\n18 issue.\n19 MR. FINKEL: Thank you, your Honor.\n20 THE COURT: Have a good weekend.\n21 ALL COUNSEL: You too.\n22 (Adjourned to June 24, 2024, at 9:00 a.m.)\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\n1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION\n2 Examination of: Page\n3 GABRIELLA LUCIANO\n4 Direct By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . . .3580\n5 Cross By Ms. Shroff . . . . . . . . . . . . .3610\n6 Redirect By Ms. Murray . . . . . . . . . . . .3630\n7 Recross By Ms. Shroff . . . . . . . . . . . .3632\n8 JESSE BROWN\n9 Direct By Mr. Horton . . . . . . . . . . . . .3633\n10 Cross By Mr. Schirick . . . . . . . . . . . .3706\n11 Redirect By Mr. Horton . . . . . . . . . . . .3843\n12 Recross By Mr. Schirick . . . . . . . . . . .3851\n13 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS\n14 Exhibit No. Received\n15 AS-12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3792\n16 AS-13 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3781\n17 AS-18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3793\n18 NJ-358 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3595\n19 3401 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3677\n20 3419 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3639\n21 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS\n22 Exhibit No. Received\n23 60657 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3840\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300","body_zh":"O6LBGUO1\n1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT（美国联邦地区法院）\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK（纽约南区）\n2 ------------------------------x\nUNITED STATES OF AMERICA（美利坚合众国）,\n\nv. 23 Cr. 118 (AT)\n\nMILES GUO（郭文贵）,\n\nDefendant（被告人）. Trial（审理）\n6 ------------------------------x\nNew York, N.Y.（纽约州纽约市）\n7 June 21, 2024\n9:00 a.m.\n\nBefore（审理法官）:\n\n10 HON. ANALISA TORRES（阿娜丽莎·托雷斯阁下）,\n11 District Judge（地区法院法官）\n-and a Jury-（及陪审团）\n\nAPPEARANCES（出庭人员）\n\nDAMIAN WILLIAMS（达米安·威廉姆斯）\n14 United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York（纽约南区联邦检察官）\n15 BY（代表出庭）: MICAH F. FERGENSON（米卡·F·费根森）\nRYAN B. FINKEL（莱恩·B·芬克尔）\n16 JUSTIN HORTON（贾斯汀·霍顿）\nJULIANA N. MURRAY（朱莉安娜·N·默里）\n17 Assistant United States Attorneys（助理联邦检察官）\n18 SABRINA P. SHROFF（萨布丽娜·P·施罗夫）\nAttorney for Defendant（被告人辩护律师）\n\nPRYOR CASHMAN LLP（普赖尔·卡什曼律师事务所）\n20 Attorneys for Defendant（被告人辩护律师）\nBY: SIDHARDHA KAMARAJU（西达尔塔·卡马拉朱）\n21 MATTHEW BARKAN（马修·巴坎）\n22 ALSTON & BIRD LLP（奥斯顿与伯德律师事务所）\nAttorneys for Defendant（被告人辩护律师）\n23 BY: E. SCOTT SCHIRICK（E·斯科特·席里克）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区速记有限责任公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 ALSO PRESENT（其他在场人员）:\nIsabel Loftus（伊莎贝尔·洛夫特斯）, Paralegal Specialist, USAO（联邦检察官办公室高级法律助理）\n2 Robert Stout（罗伯特·斯托特）, Special Agent, FBI（联邦调查局特别探员）\nRuben Montilla（鲁本·蒙蒂利亚）, Defense Paralegal（辩护方法律助理）\n3 Tuo Huang（黄拓）, Interpreter (Mandarin)（翻译员（普通话））\nShi Feng（冯石）, Interpreter (Mandarin)（翻译员（普通话））\n4 Yu Mark Tang（唐裕马克）, Interpreter (Mandarin)（翻译员（普通话））\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 （庭审继续；陪审团不在场）\n2 法庭：早上好。请出庭人员报到。\n3\n4 默里女士：朱莉安娜·默里、莱恩·芬克尔、米卡·\n5 费根森和贾斯汀·霍顿代表美国政府。\n6 卡马拉朱先生：法官阁下，早上好。西德·卡马拉朱\n7 代表郭先生。郭先生在律师席就座，\n8 豪尔赫·萨拉查（Jorge Salazar）也与我们一同在场。\n9 法庭：请就座。在继续证人证言之前，\n10 是否有任何事项需要讨论？\n11 卡马拉朱先生：辩方没有，法官阁下。\n12 芬克尔先生：法官阁下，算不上是什么问题，\n13 只是做个情况更新。感谢法庭允许我们\n14 进行全天庭审，检方本周在举证方面\n15 取得了实质性进展。根据我们目前的\n16 预测，我们预计将于周二完成主案举证。请不要\n17 把这当作绝对保证。我无法控制交叉盘问的时间。我们在周三，\n18 也就是两天前，已经告知了辩护律师，并与辩方\n19 进行了良好沟通，讨论了他们案情的范围，\n20 只是想了解大概需要多长时间。\n21 检方目前尚不确切知道辩方的证人会有哪些人。\n22 我们有他们的证人名单，但从讨论中我们得知，\n23 实际出庭的只会是该名单中的一部分人，因此我想我们还会\n24 再沟通一下，以明确最终人选。\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 我们的请求是，辩方在明天（周六）向我们提供\n2 任何新生成的补充性 26.2 条款材料，并在后续工作中\n3 持续提供。正如检方已提供其 3500 材料一样，\n4 只要存在相关材料，辩方应当每日提供其 26.2 条款材料。\n5 并且我们请求辩方在周日清晨告知我们，\n6 他们预计在周二晚些时候或周三一早传唤的证人是谁，\n7 以便我们做好相应准备，并向陪审团\n8 高效地呈现证据。\n9\n10 另外法庭也知悉，我们在周三已经告知了\n11 辩方我们预计下周出庭的证人。我们今晚会予以确认。\n12 我们可能会增加一到两名证人，比如一名保管链证人，\n13 以及可能有一名来自剑桥的警官，但剩下的证人\n14 辩方基本上都已知晓。向法官阁下汇报上述情况，\n15 以便您了解日程安排。\n16\n17 法庭：你带来了好消息。\n18 芬克尔先生：非常荣幸。\n19 法庭：卡马拉朱先生，关于你们的证据开示交付情况呢？\n20\n21 卡马拉朱先生：没问题，法官阁下。我们很乐意\n22 配合，并且随着材料的整理，我们将以滚动方式继续提供\n23 我们所掌握的任何证人陈述。\n24 法庭：好的。那么请在 9:29 时让你们的\n25 证人出庭作证。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1\n2 芬克尔先生：我们一定会做到。我想再补充一点——\n3 辩护律师可以就此做进一步说明，同样只是为了让法庭知悉。\n4 根据辩方目前的预测，他们似乎认为他们将完成举证——\n5 如果我有说错请纠正我——但我想大概是在\n6 7月2日左右。这还不包括被告人出庭作证的情况。\n7 显然，被告人是否出庭作证谁也无法提前断定是与否。\n8 那是郭先生的决定，将由他作出决定。但如果他确实出庭作证，\n9 那显然会增加庭审时间。因此我认为我们会视情况进展再看。\n10 在法庭和陪审团方便的前提下，检方可能会请求增加\n11 全天庭审的天数。我不太确定法庭这个表情代表什么意思。\n12\n13 法庭：意思是我想我们大家都有动力推进庭审进展。\n14\n15 芬克尔先生：是的，这当然是检方的观点。我也赞同这是法官阁下的观点。\n16 在辩方能够就其日程安排以及预计的举证情况\n17 向法庭提供更多信息的前提下，他们当然可以提供。\n18 我只是想向法庭通报检方目前掌握的情况。\n19\n20 卡马拉朱先生：正如芬克尔先生刚才提到的，\n21 法官阁下，我们正在梳理我们的证人名单。\n22 我们正在努力进行精简。我们已经与检方\n23 进行了讨论，探讨免除传唤某些证人的必要性，\n24 因此我们抱有希望——同样，暂不考虑郭先生是否作证的情况——\n25 但我们希望，至少就其他证人而言，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 我们能够在不到一周的时间内、在7月4日休庭假期前完成举证。\n2 我唯一想说明的是——而且我们可以随着进展再做处理——鉴于\n3 检方和辩方的举证都已接近尾声，如果郭先生有可能出庭作证，\n4 我们可能需要更多时间为他做准备。\n5 因此我们只是请求在那些时候，能够按照法官阁下此前提议的日程安排，\n6 在下午给我们留出一些时间与他会面，以防他决定出庭作证。\n7 我想随着日程推进我们可以再讨论这个问题，这里只是给法官阁下做个预先说明。\n8\n9 法庭：我想核对一下接下来的休庭日期，\n10 我需要跟我的法官助理确认一下。\n11 好的。我们将在 6月28日（周五）休庭，\n12 7月1日（周一）也不开庭。\n13 7月4日（周四）和 7月5日（周五）我们放假，\n14 请大家记住这些安排。\n15\n16 卡马拉朱先生：好的。谢谢法官阁下。\n17 法庭：好的。谢谢。\n18 （休庭）\n19 法庭：既然我们收到了好消息，我想了解\n20 控辩双方能否在周一前向我提交关于陪审团指示的意见？\n21\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1\n1 芬克尔先生：好消息总是伴随着坏消息。检方——\n2 施罗夫女士：法官阁下，证人已经就座。我只是提醒法庭，以防有影响。\n3 法庭：我认为对这个问题没有影响。\n4 芬克尔先生：检方当然可以完成。我想我们是否可以宽限到周二。\n5 法庭：周二。辩方能在周二之前完成吗？\n6 施罗夫女士：团队里现在只有我一个人在场，我想可以的，法官阁下。\n7 但如果他们不同意我的意见，我很快会告知法庭。\n8 法庭：谢谢。好的。请带陪审员入庭。\n9 法官助理：陪审团入庭。\n10 （下页继续）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- 直接询问\n1 （陪审团在场）\n2 法庭：请就座。陪审员们，早上好。\n3 我们将继续对证人进行直接询问。\n4 请牢记您仍处于宣誓状态。您可以开始提问了。\n5 默里女士：谢谢，法官阁下。\n6 GABRIELLA LUCIANO（加布里埃拉·卢恰诺），继续作证。\n7 直接询问继续\n8 默里女士询问：\n9 问：早上好，卢恰诺特别探员。\n10 答：早上好。\n11 问：洛夫特斯女士，请展示检方证据 NJ-808 并翻到第二页。\n12 请放大底部区域。\n13 卢恰诺特别探员，昨天我们结束时正在看这份文件。\n14 您能读一下左侧列出的服务提供商吗？\n15 答：服务提供商是 Acass Canada, LTD.（加拿大阿卡斯有限公司）。\n16 问：右侧的客户是什么？\n17 答：客户是 Whitecroft Shore Limited（怀特克罗夫特海岸有限公司）。\n18 问：下方有一处签名，然后是一个打印的名字，打印的名字是什么？\n19 答：Mei Guo（郭美）。\n20 问：为郭美列出的职务是什么？\n21 答：Sole director（唯一董事）。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- 直接询问\n1 问：是哪家公司的？\n2 答：怀特克罗夫特海岸有限公司。\n3 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以缩小画面并翻到下一页。\n4 请聚焦在顶部区域直至第二项决议部分。\n5 这份文件的标题是什么？\n6 答：是 Consent of Sole Member Without a Meeting（唯一成员不经会议同意书）。\n7 问：其上方的一行写着什么？\n8 答：Hudson Diamond Holding, LLC（哈德逊钻石控股有限责任公司）。\n9 问：卢恰诺特别探员，您知道哈德逊钻石控股有限责任公司是什么吗？\n10 答：不知道，女士。\n11 问：现在看第二项决议，您能读一下那里的文本吗？\n12 答：Resolved that Yanping Yvette Wang will be and hereby is appointed signing officer for the company and be it further（决议任命并在此任命王雁平（Yanping Yvette Wang）为公司签署主管，并进一步）。\n13 问：洛夫特斯女士，请从那里缩小画面，并翻到下一页，\n14 放大这里的内容。\n15 看到管理人员的推选部分，卢恰诺特别探员，\n16 那里列出了谁，职务分别是什么？\n17 答：王雁平，总裁；Max Krasner（麦克斯·克拉斯纳），副总裁。\n18 问：在底部，这份文件的日期是什么？\n19 答：2019年7月17日。\n20 问：签名栏下方的名字是什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- 直接询问\n1 答：郭美。\n2 问：我们可以撤下该文件了。请展示 New Jersey（新泽西）或 NJ-209 号证据。\n3 卢恰诺特别探员，这是什么类型的房间？\n4 答：这是一间浴室。\n5 问：我们看 NJ-2010。这个房间在 Mahwah（马瓦）住宅的几楼？\n6 答：在较高楼层之一。\n7 问：请调出 NJ-335 和 NJ-336。\n8 我们在这里看到的是什么类型的房间？\n9 答：这个房间当时被用作衣帽间。\n10 问：您在 2023年3月15日 进行搜查期间查看过这个房间吗？\n11 答：是的，女士。\n12 问：您对这个房间有什么观察发现？\n13 答：房间里堆满了奢侈品名牌服装。主要是女装。\n14 房间里有一个干洗操作台，还有一个超大的 Hermes（爱马仕）手提包。\n15 问：我们可以撤下该照片，请展示 NJ-338。\n16 我们在这里看到的是什么类型的房间？\n17 答：这看起来像是一间办公室或影音室，但是面积较小的那种。\n18 问：在这张照片的左侧有一些设备，看起来是什么？\n19 答：摄像设备。\n20 问：洛夫特斯女士，能否请放大最右侧的图片\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 在墙上。我们可以撤下那张，换上 NJ-259。\n2 MS. SHROFF（施罗夫女士）：抱歉，刚才是有提问吗？\n3 MS. MURRAY（默里女士）：法官阁下，我刚才只是在突出显示证人\n4 刚才作证提到的那张照片。\n5 THE COURT（法庭）：好的。请继续。\n6 问：NJ-259。Luciano（卢西亚诺）特别探员，这是什么？\n7 答：这是一件写着个人衬衫、Miles Kwok（郭文贵）、运往\n8 意大利的物品。\n9 问：我们换上 NJ-229。这张照片里显示的是什么？\n10 答：个人照片。\n11 问：我们可以撤下那张了。\n12 卢西亚诺特别探员，您熟悉 FBI（联邦调查局）的\n13 搜查令执行规程吗？\n14 答：是的，女士。\n15 问：该规程是否包括对拟搜查房间进行标识或标记？\n16 答：是的，女士。\n17 问：昨天您提到了或者我们查看了其中一处\n18 房间标记，您还记得吗？\n19 答：是的，女士。\n20 问：在执行搜查令时，如果有的话，FBI 会制作\n21 什么类型的文件或草图？\n22 答：有多种文件。会有对现场的搜查。\n23 会有一份搜查草图。因此在本案中，\n24 会按楼层逐层细分，或者有时更具体地\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 按各区域翼楼细分。会有一份全体人员的签入和\n2 签出登记表。会有一份查获证据物品的\n3 登记表。每件物品都会贴上标签，标明发现该物品的\n4 房间、发现人、物品所在位置的描述，\n5 以及该物品的日期和位置。此外还会\n6 有一份 FD-597 表格，这是留在现场的一份文件，附有\n7 概括性收据，这样如果有人在搜查期间\n8 不在家，他们可以大致了解拿走了什么，但这\n9 不是一份具体的清单。\n10 问：关于搜查期间拍摄的照片，如果有的话，\n11 有哪些类型的记录表？\n12 答：对所有拍摄的照片也有一份记录表。\n13 问：Loftus（洛夫特斯）女士，请仅向证人出示\n14 政府方物证 NJ-358，我们可以翻阅一下。\n15 卢西亚诺特别探员，这是什么？\n16 答：这是搜查时的草图。\n17 问：是在什么日期对什么房产的搜查？\n18 答：这是 2023 年 3 月 15 日，地点是新泽西州 Mahwah（马哈瓦）\n19 Ramapo Valley 路 675 号。\n20 默里女士：法官阁下，政府方申请采纳\n21 政府方物证 NJ-358。\n22 施罗夫女士：反对，法官阁下。法官阁下，\n23 有一系列反对理由，所以。\n24 法庭：我们进行法官席前非公开发言。\n25 （下页继续）\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 （在法官席前）\n2 施罗夫女士：谢谢法官阁下。所有这些\n3 文件都属于书面传闻。它们不属于任何\n4 例外情形，因此辩方对将它们作为证据\n5 提出持有异议。其中一些文件我今天早上才收到\n6 通知，所以我之前无法提出异议。\n7 法庭：它们全都是图纸吗？\n8 施罗夫女士：不是。其中一些——我很乐意将刚才\n9 递交给我的文件呈交给法庭。\n10 默里女士：为澄清记录，今天只递交了辩方\n11 一份文件。其他文件均已列在我们拟通过\n12 卢西亚诺女士引入的证据清单中。今早递交给\n13 辩方的文件，是我们很久以前在\n14 Rule 16 证据开示程序中就已出示过的。我还想在记录中说明，\n15 辩方今早向我们出示了相当数量\n16 标为辩方物证的文件，而这些文件此前\n17 从未向我们出示过。\n18 施罗夫女士：我并不是在指责你们哪里做错了。\n19 我只是在说明为什么我之前\n20 没有提出异议。\n21 法庭：我们先来讨论第一项。那看起来像是\n22 一份手工绘制的房产布局图。\n23 对吗？\n24 默里女士：是的，法官阁下。而且特别\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 探员卢西亚诺刚才作证说她熟悉 FBI 执行\n2 搜查令的程序。其中包括制作\n3 手绘草图。包括制作查获物品的\n4 证据登记表，这是我们希望通过她\n5 引入的物品之一。还包括照片记录表，\n6 标明各项不同照片的拍摄位置，以便我们能将\n7 向她展示的照片与搜查房产的\n8 具体位置关联起来。\n9 法庭：那么先从图纸开始。她能够\n10 说明她确认这是对该房产的准确\n11 绘制图吗？\n12 默里女士：是的，法官阁下。\n13 法庭：我们来看其他文件。这些\n14 记录表，它们能被采纳是因为什么？\n15 默里女士：它们能被采纳是因为它们涉及她在作证中提到\n16 她当天亲眼看到的物品。因此，\n17 结合她能够鉴真的草图，以及我们持有的\n18 照片记录表（对应房产不同楼层共有三份），\n19 这将有助于她说出并\n20 确认：是的，这就是我从草图中谈到的、\n21 我指认出该物品的房间。而且这些记录是\n22 FBI 在其开展的所有现场搜查中\n23 按通常业务过程保存的。\n24 法庭：记录表上是否有任何与她毫无关系\n25 的内容？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 默里女士：我想澄清的是，记录表上确实有涉及\n2 她可能未曾进入过的房间的照片的记录项，所以是的。\n3 这涉及更广泛的搜查，但每份记录表都包含与她\n4 当天看到的事物、她标记为证据的事物、\n5 她当天作为搜查人员在工作过程中所做的事情\n6 相关的信息。\n7 法庭：你打算为这位证人重点强调的就是\n8 这些记录项吗？\n9 默里女士：是的。\n10 法庭：因此如果有与该证人无关的\n11 记录项，你不会担心吗？\n12 默里女士：不会，法官阁下，因为所有记录表只是\n13 保存有关根据搜查令扣押的、作为涉案犯罪的\n14 工具或证据的物品的信息。\n15 法庭：她能够将它们作为业务记录\n16 进行鉴真吗？\n17 默里女士：对这些文件，是的。正如我刚才\n18 所询问的，我还可以问其他问题，但她说\n19 为所有 FBI 搜查保存这些不同文件就是\n20 既定流程。\n21 法庭：Kamaraju（卡马拉朱）先生。\n22 MR. KAMARAJU（卡马拉朱先生）：我认为问题不在于鉴真\n23 问题。我认为这是传闻问题。而\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 通常适用于 FBI 记录的传闻例外是\n2 803(a) 款，即公共机构的记录或陈述，如果其载明了\n3 该官员的活动、在负有法定报告职责时所观察到的事项，\n4 但在刑事案件中，不包括执法人员所观察到的\n5 事项。FBI 记录不是业务记录。法官阁下，如果它们是，\n6 那么辩方就能够引入例如 302 报告。\n7 那些不是——而且这是 FBI 针对其他搜查\n8 所做的事实，并不意味着搜查马哈瓦是经常性\n9 开展的业务活动。所以\n10 我认为政府方不能依赖业务记录规则\n11 例外，因为存在更为具体的、专门针对业务记录\n12 范围的传闻例外规则。\n13 我实际上从未见过任何案例——也许政府方有先例支持——\n14 将 FBI 记录作为业务记录采纳的。\n15 法庭：我不明白的是，什么才是\n16 正当的事实基础？\n17 卡马拉朱先生：我认为至少对于记录表而言，\n18 我认为记录表包含的内容表明，照片 17 是\n19 某物的照片，对吧。而且它是在“某某”地方发现的。所以如果\n20 他们想出示一张照片，那就是照片本身。但是\n21 提出一份记录表并说明：这是一件物品的照片，\n22 该物品是在那里发现的。那就是传闻。\n23 法庭：那么对于她特别\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 指认出的物品呢？她看过了照片，\n2 并且她说这是某物的照片，而这只是在\n3 记录表上写明了而已？\n4 卡马拉朱先生：那么，我想说明两点。第一，\n5 我不确定记录表上写有这些内容为何具有关联性；但第二，\n6 我认为记录表与她证明“我看过该照片、\n7 照片就是如此”的证言是重复累赘的。\n8 法庭：那么假设我不采纳\n9 重复累赘的论点呢？\n10 卡马拉朱先生：好吧，这对辩方是有价值的论点。\n11 法庭：我设想她在现场以及在法庭上\n12 指认的物品不应被视为\n13 传闻吧？\n14 卡马拉朱先生：法官阁下，我认为它们仍然是。\n15 这仍然是为了证明真实性而引入的庭外陈述。\n16 法庭：换句话说，这仅仅是她制作的\n17 一份记录。\n18 卡马拉朱先生：所有 FBI 报告都仅仅是一份记录，\n19 对吧。它们是 FBI 特工观察到的事项的记录，\n20 就像 302 报告一样，就像证据记录表一样。它们都是\n21 执法人员观察到的事项的记录，\n22 明确受传闻规则规制。无论她是否观察到，\n23 无论她个人是否知情，因为异议\n24 不是鉴真问题或缺乏个人知情。而是\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 明确的传闻问题，而这位证人的知情与\n2 传闻例外毫无关系。\n3 法庭：我必须说我对这项规则不熟悉。\n4 你们熟悉吗？\n5 默里女士：法官阁下，我对这项规则没有\n6 深入的了解。\n7 卡马拉朱先生：我手头有这条规则。\n8 施罗夫女士：我想援引 United States v.\n9 Schulte（美国诉舒尔特案）。在该案中，我曾试图引入 FBI 302 报告。\n10 卡马拉朱先生当时是作为联邦助理检察官与我对庭，\n11 我败诉了。Crotty（克罗蒂）法官阁下裁定\n12 那些 302 报告不具可采性。因为第一，FBI 不是\n13 营利业务机构；第二，适用了该例外条款，这也是\n14 卡马拉朱先生对此如此熟悉的原因。\n15 MR. FINKEL（芬克尔先生）：作为替代方案，法官阁下，\n16 默里女士可以就每份文件询问探员：你在哪里\n17 找到这个的。她可能会说她记得或者不记得，而\n18 我们可以利用照片记录表来唤起她的记忆。这\n19 可能会唤起她的记忆。我们可以对每一件都这么做。\n20 然后如果还有其他物品，假定法庭\n21 支持对此项的反对意见，如果还有其他物品，\n22 那么我们可能需要传唤其他查获\n23 那些特定物品的 FBI 证人，就那些物品是在哪里\n24 被发现的进行陈述。如果法官阁下支持反对意见，\n25 这将是替代采纳该记录的办法。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano- Direct\n1 从某种意义上说，这样做有效率考量，而\n2 这取决于辩方是否想要就其他物品坚持\n3 传闻异议，以及法官阁下是否就其他非她个人发现的物品\n4 支持异议以证明其发现地点。我们必须让那些探员\n5 出庭并解释他们是在哪里找到这些物品的。\n6 法庭：这是在威胁吗？\n7 芬克尔先生：这不是威胁。当然不是。我\n8 只是在向法官阁下说明政府方的考虑，同时也让\n9 辩方知悉以便他们理解。\n10 法庭：你的意思是——我必须支持\n11 这项反对意见，因为我现在已经了解了相关规则，但你们会考虑\n12 是否有必要传唤其他证人出庭。\n13 芬克尔先生：我们当然会考虑。而且法官阁下\n14 也知道，正如我们今早向法官阁下汇报的，我们已经\n15 相当大幅度地精简了我们的案件，所以我们肯定一直在\n16 考虑这些事情。\n17 法庭：好的。\n18 （下页继续）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct（卢西亚诺 - 直接询问）\n1 （在公开法庭进行；陪审团在场）\n2 法庭：异议成立。\n3 由 MS. MURRAY（默里女士）进行询问：\n4 问：Loftus（洛夫特斯）女士，能否请为证人展示\n5 政府证据第 358 号，NJ-358。实际上，我们可以把那个\n6 撤下来。\n7 我们也向陪审团展示已作为证据录入的\n8 证据 NJ-40、41 和 42。我们可以逐一展示。\n9 请先展示 40。能否请放大顶端\n10 部分。\n11 Special Agent Luciano（特别探员卢西亚诺），这份文件右上角的\n12 日期是什么？\n13 答：2022年2月11日。\n14 问：这份文件顶部的全大写名称是什么？\n15 答：Cedric DuPont Antiques（塞德里克·杜邦古董行）。\n16 问：看左边，你能读一下“售予”（sold to）下方的公司名称和\n17 地址吗？\n18 答：售予 Taurus Fund LLC（金牛座基金有限责任公司），Sky Pointe Drive, Suite 129-1071。\n19 内华达州拉斯维加斯，邮编 89141。\n20 问：然后再看“运送至”（ship to）下方这一行，能否请读一下\n21 “运送至”的相同信息？\n22 答：运送至 Taurus Fund LLC，675 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah,\n23 New Jersey 07430（新泽西州马瓦市拉马波谷路675号，邮编07430）。\n24 问：我们可以取消放大，洛夫特斯女士。现在请看\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法院速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 NJ-41。能否放大上半部分。\n2 特别探员卢西亚诺，你看到这里前两项上面的\n3 手写字迹了吗？\n4 答：是的，女士。\n5 问：你能读一下第一项的手写字迹表示什么吗？\n6 答：花卉画 位置 夫人床 南门右侧（Flower painting location madame's bed south door right）。\n7 问：该项目列出的标价和最终金额是多少？\n8 答：标价是 $26,500 美元。金额是 $19,610。\n9 问：关于第二项的手写字迹，同样的问题，\n10 能否请读出来？\n11 答：一楼走廊 夫人客厅北 靠近钟门或\n12 壁橱门（1/F hallway madame's living north close to clock door or closet door）。\n13 问：该项列出的标价和列出的金额是多少？\n14 答：标价是 $43,500，金额是 $32,190。\n15 问：洛夫特斯女士，请缩小画面，现在请\n16 放大这里剩余的各行项目。\n17 来看编号 8588 项目，特别探员卢西亚诺，该项目的\n18 描述是什么？\n19 答：一对令人惊叹且极其罕见的宫殿级规模\n20 19世纪中期意大利巴洛克风格双框镀金木\n21 镜（A sensational and very rare pair of palatially scaled Italian mid-19 Century Baroque st double-framed giltwood mirrors）。\n22 问：该项目列出的标价和金额是多少？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 答：标价是 $165,000，金额是 $12,100。\n2 问：现在看下一项 CDM，该项目列出的\n3 手写字迹是什么？\n4 答：Mei的卧室，床左上方至天花板（Mei's bedroom, bed left top to ceiling）。\n5 问：洛夫特斯女士，请把那个撤下来，并展示 NJ-42。\n6 能否放大最顶部\n7 的第一项。\n8 特别探员卢西亚诺，你看到这份文件顶部\n9 区域的字迹了吗？\n10 答：是的，女士。\n11 问：上面写着什么？\n12 答：看起来写着，私人入口（Personal entrance）。\n13 问：我们可以撤下来了。洛夫特斯女士，能否仅向证人\n14 展示证据 NJ-358 并翻阅各页。\n15 特别探员卢西亚诺，你认得 NJ-358 中\n16 描绘的内容吗？\n17 答：是的，女士。\n18 问：你认出它是什么？\n19 答：这是 Mahwah（马瓦）的住宅。\n20 问：NJ-358 是否公允、准确地反映了你在2023年3月15日\n21 观察到的马瓦住宅？\n22 答：是的，女士。\n23 默里女士：法官阁下，政府方提请采纳 NJ-358 为证据。\n24 MS. SHROFF（什罗夫女士）：无异议。\n25 法庭：准予采纳。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 （政府证据第 NJ-358 号已作为证据录入）\n2 由默里女士继续询问：\n3 问：能否请特别探员卢西亚诺向陪审团解释一下，\n4 我们在这里第一页看到的是什么？\n5 答：这是该房产的手绘草图总览。\n6 问：请翻到下一页。\n7 我们在第二页看到的是什么？\n8 答：这是地下室，也就是该住宅较低楼层的\n9 草图。\n10 问：你能否在这份草图上向陪审团指出，我们昨天\n11 看过照片的泳池区域\n12 位于何处？\n13 答：有一块标着热水浴缸（hot tub）。\n14 问：是在这份草图的顶部正中吗？\n15 答：是的，女士。\n16 问：请翻到下一页。\n17 特别探员卢西亚诺，这向我们展示的是什么？\n18 答：这是该住宅的主楼层（一楼）。\n19 问：请翻下一页。这是哪一层？\n20 答：这是该住宅的二楼。\n21 问：你能在这份草图上指出我们昨天看过的\n22 保险箱照片所在的位置吗？\n23 答：是的，女士。就在通往一楼部分开口的紧邻左侧，\n24 在标有 YY 的壁橱房间内。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 问：紧挨着下方标为 VV 的房间，那是哪个\n2 房间？\n3 答：那是用作存放亚麻织品壁橱的开阔房间。它是我们昨天\n4 透过门框看到的系列房间中的第二个。\n5 问：洛夫特斯女士，能否请把政府证据 NJ-204 并排调出来。\n6 我想是在左边的左页。\n7 那么，特别探员卢西亚诺，你能否向陪审团解释\n8 我们在右边看到的照片与我们在左边看到的二楼\n9 草图之间有何关联？\n10 答：好的。这是房间 VV。只是旋转了角度。\n11 问：右边照片中，存放保险箱的房间 YY\n12 会在哪里？\n13 答：在带有开放式衣架的墙壁右侧的白色关着的门内。\n14 问：洛夫特斯女士，请在左边保持显示 358，\n15 右边请调出证据 NJ-201。\n16 特别探员卢西亚诺，我想再看一下 NJ-201。\n17 这是我们昨天讨论过的房间之一，请翻到\n18 左侧的下一页。\n19 NJ-201 中描绘的房间在左侧这里的\n20 草图上的什么位置？\n21 答：能否稍微放大一点以便我能看清数字，\n22 不过它在左侧部分。\n23 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们其实可以先缩小，然后放大\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 该草图的左栏。\n2 答：该卧室是房间 SS。\n3 问：我们在 NJ-201 照片中看到的梳妆台，\n4 如果有的话，在左侧草图的 SS 中是在哪里描绘的？\n5 答：是房间 SS 右侧的长方形物体。\n6 问：洛夫特斯女士，现在能否在右侧调出。左侧\n7 可以保持不变。能否在右侧调出\n8 NJ-250。\n9 特别探员卢西亚诺，NJ-250 中描绘的这件物品\n10 位于左侧草图的什么位置？\n11 答：它位于房间 SS 内草图上的长方形物品处。\n12 问：我们可以把那些撤下来。洛夫特斯女士，能否请调出\n13 已作为证据录入的证据 NJ-607。\n14 特别探员卢西亚诺，我们能否聚焦在顶部\n15 三楼部分。实际上，在它上面的最顶端，列在三楼上方的\n16 单词是什么？\n17 答：Crocker（克罗克）。\n18 问：如果有的话，你理解这是指什么？\n19 答：我说不上来。\n20 问：顺着三楼往下看，你能否只读一下房间的描述，\n21 即页面顺延而下看似是对房间的描述？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 答：Mei的衣帽间、Mei的衣帽间天花板、Mei的卧室天花板、\n2 Mei的卧室灯槽、Mei的浴室灯槽、俱乐部吧台、俱乐部\n3 挂画、Wayne（韦恩）的卧室、浴室梳妆台、Wayne的办公室、\n4 浴室；Wayne的卧室壁灯、Wayne的客厅壁灯。\n5 问：你知道 Wayne 是谁吗？\n6 答：不知道，女士。\n7 问：你知道 Mei 是谁吗？\n8 答：不知道，女士。\n9 问：看二楼，同样你能否只顺着往下读出\n10 这些房间的名称？\n11 答：老板主卫淋浴、老板主卫坐便、老板主卫\n12 中央吊灯、老板主卫、老板主卫、老板\n13 壁灯走廊入口、老板壁灯客厅入口、\n14 老板微型浴室入口、夫人二号浴室天花板灯、\n15 夫人二号浴室淋浴灯、夫人二号浴室\n16 梳妆台灯。\n17 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以缩小画面并翻到下一页。\n18 特别探员卢西亚诺，你知道老板（boss）是谁吗？\n19 答：不知道，女士。\n20 问：你知道夫人（madame）指的是谁吗？\n21 答：不知道，女士。\n22 问：我们把这个撤下来，请看证据 NJ-608。\n23 看这里，你能否只读出这份证据上\n24 加粗并带有下划线的字？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 答：夫人大厅、老板衣帽间、老板大浴室、老板床、\n2 老板起居。\n3 问：洛夫特斯女士，请停留在第一页。\n4 根据这份文件，那些房间与哪一层楼\n5 关联？\n6 答：二楼。\n7 问：请往下翻。这一页的底部写着什么？\n8 答：儿子大厅、儿子衣帽间、儿子浴室、大厅俱乐部室、Mei的\n9 床、Mei的客厅、Mei的衣帽间。\n10 问：你知道儿子指的是谁吗？\n11 答：不知道，女士。\n12 问：看屏幕上方这里，即第一页的底部，\n13 那些房间与哪一层楼关联？\n14 答：三楼。\n15 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们把那个撤下来，请调出 NJ-155 和\n16 NJ-156。\n17 先看左边，特别探员卢西亚诺，这张照片中央\n18 出现了什么类型的设备？\n19 答：制作设备。\n20 问：看右边的照片，那是同一个房间的\n21 另一个视角吗？\n22 答：是的，女士。\n23 问：洛夫特斯女士，请撤下来，只放上 156，\n24 并放大靠墙的书柜。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 特别探员卢西亚诺，你看到架子上位于那个书柜\n2 中间的物品了吗？\n3 答：看到了。\n4 问：那看起来是什么？\n5 答：一座雕像。\n6 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们把那个撤下来，能否调出\n7 政府证据 GXZ-9 第 189 页，并放大其顶部\n8 部分。\n9 特别探员卢西亚诺，这里左侧一栏中的日期\n10 是什么？\n11 答：2023年2月8日。\n12 问：看这份证据顶部的照片，根据你在2023年3月15日\n13 对马瓦的搜查，如果有的话，你从那张照片中认出了什么？\n14 答：书柜。\n15 问：那和我们刚才在政府证据 NJ-156 中看到的\n16 是同一个书柜吗？\n17 答：看起来是的。\n18 问：你看到出现在该个人头顶上方的物品了吗？\n19 在 Z-9 第 189 页的这张照片中可以看到它的一部分。\n20 答：是的，女士。\n21 问：根据你在2023年3月15日对马瓦的搜查，\n22 该物品对你而言有何眼熟之处（如果有的话）？\n23 答：它看起来是同一座雕像。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO1 Luciano - Direct\n1 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们可以撤下那个，并请展示政府证据\n2 C-461。实际上，撤下那个，\n3 我们回到政府证据 Z-9 第 197 页。能否\n4 放大这里的底部条目。\n5 特别探员卢西亚诺，这里左栏的日期\n6 是什么？\n7 答：日期是2023年2月19日。\n8 （下页继续）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 直接询问\n\n由 MS. MURRAY（默里女士）进行：\n\n问：看右边带照片的框，下面的文字是什么，那里写的黑色文字是什么？\n\n答：“2023年2月19日，Miles Guo（郭文贵）在其直播中透露了这条爆炸性新闻。”\n\n问：看上面的照片，根据你2023年3月15日对 Mahwah（马瓦）的搜查，你在那张照片中认出了什么（如果有的话）？\n\n答：书柜。\n\n默里女士：Loftus 女士，我们现在能否看政府证物 W5-V。\n\n请从 1 分 50 秒播放到 2 分 05 秒。\n\n问：特别探员 Luciano（卢西亚诺）——\n\n默里女士：在我们开始之前，我们能否回到——抱歉，Loftus 女士——开头。\n\n问：看这张图像，根据你2023年3月15日对马瓦的搜查，你在这张图像中认出了什么（如果有的话）？\n\n答：书柜和雕像。\n\n问：雕像在这张图像中的什么位置？\n\n答：在紧靠郭先生头部左侧的书架上。\n\n默里女士：好的。那么请从 1 分 50 秒开始播放到 2 分 05 秒。\n\n（播放视频）\n\n默里女士：能否在那里再多播放几秒钟。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 直接询问\n\n请。\n\n（继续播放视频）\n\n由默里女士进行：\n\n问：特别探员卢西亚诺，你以前看过这个视频吗？\n\n答：没有，女士。\n\n问：屏幕左上方有一个类似椭圆形的东西。你看到了吗？\n\n答：看到了，女士。\n\n问：那里写了什么字？\n\n答：New Federal State of China（新中国联邦）。\n\n问：那下面呢？\n\n答：CCP does not equal Chinese（中共不等于中国人）。\n\n问：你知道新中国联邦是什么吗？\n\n答：不知道，女士。\n\n默里女士：Loftus 女士，让我们撤下那个，看政府证物 NJ256。\n\n请放大最底部的一项。\n\n我们能否先缩小以便看到整份文件，然后放大那里。\n\n问：看最底部的项目，特别探员卢西亚诺，该物品的描述是什么？\n\n答：谢谢。Crocodile hoodie leather jacket-50（鳄鱼皮连帽皮夹克-50）。\n\n问：该物品列出的价格是多少？\n\n答：129,600 美元。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 直接询问\n\n默里女士：好的。Loftus 女士，我们现在看政府证物 Z9 第 206 页。\n\n问：看这里最底部的项目，特别探员卢西亚诺，最左侧一列的日期是什么？\n\n答：2023年3月8日。\n\n问：看右边，有一个括号，然后是一些文字。你能把这两部分都读出来吗？\n\n答：“2023年3月7日。郭文贵的 GETTR 视频全文。”\n\n默里女士：Loftus 女士，请向下滚动。\n\n实际上，请稍等片刻。我们能否撤下那个并转到——法官阁下，我可以稍等片刻吗？\n\n法庭：可以。\n\n默里女士：Loftus 女士，请转到政府证物 W183。那就是我们刚才看的那个条目右侧所引用的内容。\n\n由默里女士进行：\n\n问：特别探员卢西亚诺，你看到这份文件上的标题了吗？\n\n答：看到了，女士。\n\n问：这和你刚才在政府证物 Z9 第 206 页读到的是同一个标题吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n默里女士：Loftus 女士，能否稍微向下滚动到照片处。停在那里。\n\n问：你看到这张照片中该人身上所穿的衣服了吗？\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 直接询问\n\n答：看到了，女士。\n\n默里女士：Loftus 女士，我们能否放大那个。\n\n问：那看起来是什么？\n\n答：这是一件带有 G Fashion 标签的黑色鳄鱼皮夹克。\n\n问：那是什么类型的夹克（如果有的话）？\n\n答：鳄鱼皮，或者皮革。\n\n问：这件夹克有领子或任何其他识别特征吗？\n\n答：这是一件连帽衫（带帽夹克）。\n\n默里女士：好的。我们可以缩回正常大小，然后稍微向下滚动一下。\n\n问：实际上，左侧黄色的字母是什么？\n\n答：NFSC。\n\n问：你知道 NFSC 是什么吗？\n\n答：下面写着新中国联邦。\n\n默里女士：好的。Loftus 女士，请向下滚动。\n\n继续往下一点。\n\n好的。请停在那里。\n\n问：在这一页的中间，特别探员卢西亚诺，从“看一看”开始，请读一下该段以及接下来的两段。\n\n答：“看一看我穿的这件皮连帽衫。看看\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 直接询问\n\n皮革的质感；它像流水一样柔软。我在法国的一个朋友和在日本的另一家人有和我这款一模一样的款式；穿在每个人身上都棒极了。\n\n“如果你把这种款式的衣服穿对了，你会看起来英俊潇洒、魅力四射，对吧？你也可以戴上帽子，让你显得更加帅气……对吧？你觉得呢？好看吗？\n\n“穿着这件皮连帽衫，无论是和你的伴侣在海滩上漫步还是登上游艇，那将是多么浪漫，对吧？它看起来也很可爱，不是吗？”\n\n问：那么，特别探员卢西亚诺，在你刚才阅读的文字中，你看到任何提及中共的内容了吗？\n\n答：没有，女士。\n\n默里女士：我们可以撤下那个。\n\n请出示政府证物 NJ807。\n\nLoftus 女士，暂时请放大这部分的顶部。\n\n问：这份文件的标题是什么？\n\n答：Residential Lease Agreement（住宅租赁协议）。\n\n问：上面列出的房东是谁？\n\n答：Taurus Fund SP。\n\n问：Taurus Fund SP 地址所在的国家是哪里？\n\n答：大开曼群岛。\n\n问：列出的租客是谁？\n\nMS. SHROFF（施罗夫女士）：法官阁下，我提出异议。这不是\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 直接询问\n\n总结性证人。这是一位就特定主题作证的证人。她不是总结性证人。\n\n法庭：这是已经作为证据采纳的文件吗？\n\n默里女士：是的，法官阁下，这是在特别探员卢西亚诺执行搜查期间扣押的。\n\n法庭：好的。你可以继续。\n\n由默里女士进行：\n\n问：请读一下租客那一行。\n\n答：Naok Hing Chi。\n\n问：地址呢？\n\n答：373 Taconic Road, Greenwich, Connecticut, 06831。\n\n默里女士：Loftus 女士，请把那个缩小。\n\n让我们重点关注物业（Property）、租期（Term）和租金（Rent）这前三项。\n\n问：这份住宅租赁协议涉及什么物业？\n\n答：675 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah, New Jersey 07430。\n\n问：上面的那一行，如果你能读一下第一行，读到括号结束。\n\n答：“租客同意向房东承租，且房东同意向租客出租。”\n\n问：那里的括号里是如何描述的？\n\n答：独栋住宅。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 直接询问\n\n问：在第 2 项中，有一个租期。看第一句话，这份住宅租赁协议的租期是多久？\n\n答：本租约的期限为两年，自2022年6月1日开始，至2024年5月31日结束。\n\n问：这里的第 3 项是租金，这两年租期的租金是多少？\n\n答：本租约期限内的租金为 2,400,000 美元，支付方式如下：每月 100,000 美元，应在每月的首日支付。\n\n问：租金向哪个实体或个人支付？\n\n答：Taurus Fund SP。\n\n默里女士：缩小该页面并转到下一页，谢谢。\n\n问：在这一页的底部，特别探员卢西亚诺，你看到似乎是签首字母缩写签名的地方了吗？\n\n答：看到了，女士。\n\n问：本合同的哪一方在该文件上签署了首字母缩写？\n\n答：租客。\n\n默里女士：缩小该页面。请转到下一页。\n\n请在那里暂停一下。\n\n我们能否重点看这里的第 31 项和第 32 项。\n\n问：关于第 31 项，这份住宅租赁协议该部分的标题是什么？\n\n答：LEAD-BASED PAINT DOCUMENT ACKNOWLEDGMENT（含铅油漆文件确认书）。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 直接询问\n\n问：第 32 项，这份住宅租赁协议该部分的标题是什么？\n\n答：WINDOW GUARD NOTIFICATION（窗户护栏通知）。\n\n问：你能读一下第 32 项的第一句话吗？\n\n答：“如果 10 岁或 10 岁以下的儿童正在或即将在公寓内居住，或者正在或即将有相当长的时间经常出现在公寓内，且租客向业主（房东）提出书面要求安装窗户护栏，则法律要求业主（房东）在公寓内提供、安装和维护窗户护栏。”\n\n默里女士：我们可以缩小该页面。\n\n请转到下一页。\n\n停在那里。我们能否重点看这里的手写内容。\n\n问：左侧这里的日期是什么？\n\n答：05/29/2022。\n\n问：右侧有一个签名。在租客签名的下方打印的姓名是什么？\n\n答：Naok Hing Chi。\n\n默里女士：Loftus 女士，缩小。\n\n向下转到下一页。\n\n还有下一页。\n\n下一页。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 交叉询问\n\n问：再次请教，特别探员卢西亚诺，在这些页面的底部，有签署首字母缩写签名的空间。协议的哪一方在所有这些页面上签署了首字母缩写？\n\n答：租客。\n\n默里女士：我们可以撤下那个。\n\n法官阁下，我可以稍等片刻吗？\n\n法庭：可以。\n\n问：特别探员卢西亚诺，除了在2023年3月15日执行搜查令之外，你是否还参与了对郭文贵的调查？\n\n答：没有，女士。\n\n问：我们在你作证期间看过的照片和文件，是否就是2023年3月15日拍摄的全部照片和取得的全部文件？\n\n答：不是，女士。\n\n问：我们在你作证期间讨论的照片和文件是由你挑选的吗？\n\n答：不是，女士。\n\n问：是谁挑选的？\n\n答：政府方。\n\n默里女士：法官阁下，没有其他问题了。谢谢。\n\n法庭：交叉询问。\n\n交叉询问\n\n由施罗夫女士进行：\n\n问：探员卢西亚诺，你自2017年以来一直在 FBI（联邦调查局）工作，对吗？\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 交叉询问\n\n答：不对。\n\n问：那么你是哪一年开始为他们工作的？\n\n答：2019年。\n\n问：2019年。在2019年之前你为谁工作？\n\n答：我为 Pearson（培生）工作。\n\n问：培生是什么？\n\n答：一家教育出版公司。\n\n问：从2019年到现在，你一直在同一个小组工作吗？\n\n答：没有，女士。\n\n问：在这个小组之前，你曾在哪些小组工作过？\n\n答：我曾在 HIDTA 小组工作过，这是一个打击毒品贩运的小组；我曾在白领犯罪小组工作过；我也曾在监侦小组工作过。\n\n问：好的。作为你在联邦调查局职责的一部分，你拍摄了这个名为 Crocker Mansion（克罗克庄园）的地方的照片，对吗？\n\n答：没有，女士。\n\n问：好的。你今天看的照片没有一张是你拍的，对吧？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：不，你没有拍？我只是想确保我理解了你的回答。\n\n答：我没有拍摄其中的任何照片。\n\n施罗夫女士：我以为我听到狗叫了。抱歉。\n\n法庭：这里是有婴儿还是有小动物？\n\n法庭不是带宠物的地方。\n\n噢，是个喷嚏。好吧，那就祝你健康。\n\n好的。请继续。\n\n由施罗夫女士进行：\n\n问：顺便问一下，你知道联邦调查局有多少名特别探员吗？\n\n答：我不知道。\n\n问：十万？\n\n答：我说不上来。\n\n问：好的。你刚才告诉我，我们在昨天和今天法庭上看到的照片没有一张是你拍的，对吗？\n\n默里女士：反对。该问题已问过并已回答。\n\n法庭：异议成立。\n\n施罗夫女士：法官阁下，我只是想回到基点；仅此而已。\n\n法庭：好的。所以不要——\n\n施罗夫女士：我继续提问。\n\n由施罗夫女士进行：\n\n问：你与默里女士见过面以准备你在此处的证供，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：你和她一起审查了这些照片，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\n问：当您和她一起审阅这些照片时，您是将它们并排放置，就像在庭审中并排放置那样，还是说今天在法庭上才第一次为您这样放置？\n\n答：您能重复一下问题吗？我没听懂。\n\n问：当然可以。您知道有时 Murray（默里）女士会把两张照片并排放在一起然后问您问题，对吗？您还记得吗？\n\n答：记得，女士。\n\n问：那么她是在准备阶段就这样做了，还是在法庭上这样并排时您才是第一次见到？\n\n答：我们在准备阶段没有审阅过那个。\n\n问：好的。所以当她把两张照片并排放置时，那是您第一次看到它们？\n\nMURRAY 女士：反对。问过且已回答。\n\n法庭：反对成立。所以不要重复提问。\n\n问：让我回到上一份文件，807号，好吗？您刚才就这份文件作了证，对吧？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：好的。这是一份租赁协议，对吧？\n\n答：上面是这么写的，是的，女士。\n\n问：最上面就告诉了您房东是谁，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：好的。房东是 Taurus Fund SP，对吧？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：然后还有一名租户，对吧？\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：租户是 Naok Hina Chi，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：而且它看起来——您来告诉我，您是 FBI（联邦调查局）特工——看起来就像一份标准的住宅租赁协议，对吗？\n\n答：我说不准。\n\n问：好的。不过，上面有各个条款段落，对吧，房产（Property）、租期（Term）、租金（Rent）、初始押金（Initial Deposit），对吧？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：租户在左侧签了字，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\nSHROFF 女士：好的。我们能否直接翻到最后一页。\n\n然后再往前翻一页。\n\n好的。到了。\n\n问：您看那只有——在您看来它像是一份标准的租赁协议吗？\n\nMURRAY 女士：问过且已回答。\n\n法庭：反对成立。\n\n问：这份文件上的日期是哪一天？\n\n答：我看不到您指的是哪个日期。\n\n问：好的。这是您与 Murray 女士一起审阅过的文件之一吗？\n\n答：我认为是的，女士。\n\n问：当时您是否审阅过该文件是否注有日期？\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\n还是没有？\n\n答：我记不清了。\n\n问：您是否审阅过上面没有房东姓名缩写签名这一事实？\n\n答：我记不清了。\n\n问：您是否记得她有没有问过您任何后续问题，即实际上是否找到了一份已签署生效的副本？\n\n答：我认为没有。\n\n问：好的。您认为她没有问过您？\n\nMURRAY 女士：反对。问过且已回答。\n\n法庭：反对成立。\n\n好了。Shroff 女士，问题问一次就行，不要再问第二遍。\n\n问：她引导您看了这份文件的第 32 段，对吗？\n\n答：我认为是的。\n\n问：那一截谈到了窗护栏？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：对吧？在搜查过程中，您是否查看过关于安装该窗护栏是否有任何后续跟进？\n\n答：我没有查看。\n\n问：好的。所以当您阅读这些段落时，您只是在读 Murray 女士要求您读的内容？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：好的。对您来说，第 32 段没有任何异常之处，对吗？\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\n答：我说不准。\n\n问：好的。谢谢。\n\nSHROFF 女士：你可以把那个撤下来了，Jorge。非常感谢。\n\n现在让我们看——我想是 NJ256。\n\n能否请为陪审员和证人把那份文件调亮一点。\n\n问：有人向您询问过关于这张特定发票的问题，对吗？\n\n答：没错。\n\n问：好的。重点似乎是这件鳄鱼皮连帽皮夹克，对吧？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：好的。那件羊绒半高领毛衣呢？\n\n法庭：您是在提问吗？\n\nSHROFF 女士：是的，女士。\n\n问：价格是 2,635 美元；是这样吗？\n\n答：上面列出的价格是这样，是的，女士。\n\n问：对。出于某种原因，有一件是蓝色的，然后还有一件是红色的，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：好的。然后还有另外一件，红蓝相间的，对吗？\n\n法庭：请稍等片刻。\n\n您可以继续。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\nSHROFF 女士：谢谢。\n\n问：在最上方有一件下摆荷叶边机车夹克，对吧？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\nSHROFF 女士：好的。现在能否请调出 Z9。\n\n问：我认为那是政府向您展示过的视频，对吗？您记得这个视频吗？\n\n答：这个是视频吗？\n\n问：我以为她确实给您看了那个视频。您记得吗？\n\n答：我记得有一段视频，是的，女士。\n\n问：对。重点似乎是郭先生头后面的某座雕像，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：那是一座佛像，对吗？\n\n答：我说不准。\n\nSHROFF 女士：好的。我们能否向她展示 Z9.197。\n\n现在请向上滚动。再往上一点。\n\n问：好的。Murray 女士就 2023年2月17日的这段特定视频向您提了问，对吗？\n\nMURRAY 女士：反对，法官阁下。这不是我向她询问的内容。\n\n法庭：反对成立。\n\n问：她就这份文件向您提了问？\n\nMURRAY 女士：没有，法官阁下，也不是这一项记录。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\nSHROFF 女士：那她可以回答不是，法官阁下。这只是一个问题。\n\n法庭：好的。您可以回答。\n\n答：我记不清是不是这份具体的文件，也记不清具体的问题是什么了。\n\nSHROFF 女士：好的。让我们继续往下滚动。\n\n问：让我们看一下那张照片，对吧？她问了您关于什么是 New Federal State of China（新中国联邦）的问题，对吗？\n\n答：我不知道她问的是不是这个。\n\n问：好的。让我们看一下左边的那个小图标，或者说在我看来郭先生头部左侧的那个。在左上角。\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：对。她问了您是否知道新中国联邦是什么，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：那正下方写着什么？\n\n答：CCP（中国共产党），带划线的等号，Chinese（中国人）。\n\n问：好的。所以尽管郭先生在她为您播放的视频中没有提到 CCP，您在文件本身，或者这个视频本身上面，看到了关于 CCP 的标注，对吗？\n\n答：我看到了关于 CCP 的标注，是的，女士。\n\nSHROFF 女士：好的。我们可以缩小画面了。\n\n请向她展示 W183。\n\n问：您还记得被询问过关于这份文件的问题吗？\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\n答：我记得读过这份文件的标题，是的，女士。\n\n问：好的。那我们来读一下“The CCP strengthened its rule by（中共通过……巩固其统治）”。您能从那一处往下读吗。\n\n答：“中共通过整肃党员、抓捕那些不愿充当‘党奴’且不愿服从命令的人来巩固其统治。神佑新中国联邦；我们在世界黑暗势力的围剿中度过了艰难时期，并取得了重大进展。”\n\nSHROFF 女士：你可以撤下那个了。\n\n能否翻到第 156 页。\n\n我是说，不是第 156 页，是证物 NJ156。\n\n问：现在，有人问了您关于这个书架的几个问题，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\nSHROFF 女士：好的。现在能否将画面放大到您看到的那个雕像上。\n\n问：按照您的说法，这个书架出现在 Miles Guo（郭文贵）的多个视频中，对吗？\n\n答：它似乎出现在视频的背景中，是的，女士。\n\n问：对。而房间本身——能否再把画面缩小——显示那里有一台摄像机和其他录制设备，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：它还显示了一张桌子，进行直播的人会坐在那里，对吗？\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\n答：它显示了一张桌子，是的，女士。\n\nSHROFF 女士：好的。能否把画面再往房间外放大一点，就在照片外侧。能否……好的。\n\n问：您的工作中没有任何部分涉及去查明是否有更多的直播是在这个特定房间里进行的，对吗？\n\n答：您能换个方式提问吗？\n\n问：当然可以。今天坐在这里，您不知道从这个房间进行了多少次直播，对吗？\n\n答：没错。\n\n问：而且您也不知道是否有其他人从这个房间进行过直播，对吗？\n\n答：没错。\n\n问：您也不知道这个特定房间是否有任何其他用途，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士，没错。\n\n问：现在，有人向您展示了这个名为 Crocker Mansion（克罗克庄园）的地方各处的照片，对吗？\n\n答：请您重复一遍好吗。\n\n问：当然。有人向您展示了这个克罗克庄园不同视角的照片，对吗？\n\n答：是的，女士。\n\n问：有人向您展示了一张您制作的比例图，一张您画的图，对吗？\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\n答：图不是我画的，不是的，女士。\n\n问：顺便问一下，是谁画的？\n\n答：FBI 的另一位搜查组成员。\n\nSHROFF 女士：好的。请把那张图展示给证人看。\n\n问：当您就此作证时，您第一次看到那张草图，就是这一张，NJ358，是什么时候？\n\n答：这一份吗？今天。\n\n问：所以在今天之前，您从未见过这份文件？\n\n答：没错。\n\n问：您在与 Murray 女士一起准备时也没有见过。\n\nMURRAY 女士：反对。问过且已回答。\n\n法庭：反对成立。\n\n问：好的。当您就这张草图作证时——能否请您看左侧。您看到那一部分写着 Ramapo Valley Road（拉马波山谷路）的地方了吗？\n\n答：看到了，女士。\n\n问：那正下方写着什么？\n\n答：不在——\n\n问：写着什么？\n\n答：女士，屏幕上还是没有显示出来。\n\n问：我的屏幕上有。\n\nSHROFF 女士：陪审员的屏幕上有吗？\n\n陪审团：有。\n\n答：我这边没有显示出来。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反询问\n\n问：现在呢？\n\n答：现在我能看到了，是的，女士。\n\n问：好的。\n\n答：上面写着，制作者：Laura Rodia。\n\n问：不，不。我是指最左边，一直往左，拉马波山谷路，就在那里。那下面写着什么？\n\n答：警卫室（Guard House）、停车场（Parking）、建筑物（Building）、网球场（Tennis Court）。\n\n问：好的。警卫室是什么？\n\n答：一个警卫室。\n\n问：里面有警卫吗？您知道当您去搜查该处时警卫是否在那里吗？\n\n答：我说不准。\n\n问：好的。那么，这座房子防卫森严，对吗？\n\n答：您能重复一下问题吗？\n\n问：当然。克罗克庄园防卫森严，对吗？\n\n答：我认为是的。\n\n问：对。到处都是摄像头，对吗？\n\n答：我认为是的。\n\n问：房间内部本身就有摄像头，对吗？\n\n答：我记不清了。\n\n问：地下室里有摄像头，对吗？\n\n答：我记不清了。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反问\n1 问：那么，你在那里执行了搜查令，对吧？\n2 答：是的，女士。\n3 问：了解你要搜查的场所的诸多细微之处，是 FBI（联邦调查局）规程的一部分，对吗？\n4 答：你能换个方式提问吗？\n5 问：当然。制定类似搜查计划的方案，难道不是 FBI 的规程吗？\n6 答：制定计划确实是规程，是的，女士。\n7 问：对。ERT（证据响应小组）也有计划，对吧？\n8 答：是的，女士。\n9 问：计划的一部分就是确保你了解你要搜查的场所，对吧？\n10 答：是的，女士。\n11 问：你想了解房子里是否有摄像头，对吗？\n12 答：我们对待所有区域都当作有摄像头一样，女士。\n13 问：我没听清。你能为我重复一遍吗？\n14 答：始终将各个区域当作装有摄像头来对待是最佳做法，女士。\n15 问：那不是我的问题，不过没关系。我的问题是：确保你了解你所搜查场所中摄像头的位置，这是 FBI 的规程，对吗？\n16 答：是的，女士。\n17 问：你想确保你搜查的场所里没有动物，对吗，以免有狗扑向你？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反问\n1 答：是的，女士。\n2 问：好的。并且你想确保你知道仍在你要搜查场所里的人都是谁，对吗？\n3 答：是的，女士。\n4 问：当你搜查这处房产时，是否有前 NYPD（纽约市警察局）人员在那里担任保安？\n5 答：我说不上来。\n6 问：你是否见过一位名叫 Scott Barnett（斯科特·巴内特）的负责安保的人？\n7 答：我没有。\n8 问：你是否知道你的团队中是否有人见过在 Crocker Mansion（克罗克庄园）工作的一位名叫 Scott Barnett 的前 NYPD 警官？\n9 答：我不知道这一点。\n10 问：你是否列出了一份名单或记录了当天有多少人在工作？\n11 答：我没有。\n12 问：你是否记录了那天有谁在那座庄园里？\n13 答：我没有。\n14 问：坐在这里的今天，你是否知道那天在那栋房子里是否有任何人被捕，以及被捕的是谁？\n15 答：我不知道。\n16 问：在你执行搜查令之前，你是否知道——你是 FBI，对吧？\n17 答：是的，女士。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反问\n1 问：——是否有类似无人机在房子周围盘旋？\n2 答：我说不上来。\n3 问：是否有任何类型的 FBI 航空设施在观察那天谁在房子里？\n4 答：我说不上来。\n5 问：郭先生那天不在那栋房子里，对吗？\n6 答：我不知道。\n7 问：你只是——我不再重复了。\n8 在你直接询问以及现在的反问期间作证所提及的其他人中，你是否记得他们中的任何人那天在家里？\n9 答：我说不上来他们是否在。\n10 问：你花了多长时间进行搜查？\n11 答：那是整整漫长的一天，一直到深夜。\n12 问：对。在你开始搜查之前，你们开了一个战术计划会议，对吗？\n13 答：确实开了一个战术计划会议，是的，女士。\n14 问：你参加了吗？\n15 答：没有，女士。\n16 问：好的。你参加了哪个会议？\n17 答：搜查会议。\n18 问：好的。你们开了一个搜查小组会议以便组织搜查，对吗？\n19 答：是的，女士。\n20 问：在一天结束时，当你完成搜查后，你在一天结束时开会了吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反问\n1 答：我没有出席那个会议。\n2 问：所以你在那天只参加了一个会议。\n3 答：是的，女士。我不得不提前离开。\n4 SHROFF 女士：好的。我们可以撤下这个了。\n5 问：现在请你想一想 Murray（默里）女士向你提问的关于这件鳄鱼皮连帽夹克的问题。你记得就此作证吗？\n6 答：是的，女士。\n7 问：好的。她给你看了那件连帽夹克，对吗？\n8 答：是的，女士。\n9 问：然后她给你看了郭先生穿那件夹克的 Gettr（盖特）照片，对吧？\n10 SHROFF 女士：我马上回来。\n11 如果能展示一下它。谢谢。\n12 问：她向你询问了关于这份——我不知道是应该叫它文件还是别的什么，但就是这个，对吧？\n13 答：是的，女士。\n14 SHROFF 女士：好的。我们能否将这个缩小一点。\n15 问：并且她让你朗读了这份文件的部分内容，对吧？\n16 答：是的，女士。\n17 SHROFF 女士：好的。我们能否在这个上面往下滚动。实际上，如果我可以直接——\n18 问：你看到上面写着 2023 年 3 月 7 日吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反问\n1 答：是的，女士。\n2 问：紧挨着那下面写着什么？\n3 答：第 51 集。\n4 问：好的。在那张照片中他穿着 G Fashion（G 时尚），是这样吗？\n5 答：是的，女士。\n6 问：那就是你作证提到的那件夹克、美元金额、鳄鱼皮和连帽衫，对吗？\n7 答：可能是。\n8 问：那么，你告诉我。你在直接询问中就此作了证，所以我只是想确保我理解了你的证词。到底是不是？\n9 答：我对那件夹克进行了观察。我认为我们没有说过这就是那件确切的夹克。\n10 问：好的。所以坐在这里的今天，你不知道这是否就是那件确切的夹克。\n11 答：这——我说不上来。\n12 问：好的。但这上面写着 G Fashion，对吧？\n13 答：是的，女士。\n14 问：好的。作为今天在这里作证的特工，你是否恰好知道郭先生与 G Fashion 签有合同？\n15 答：我说不上来。\n16 问：你知道他是否是 G Fashion 的推广人吗？\n17 答：我没听清你的问题，女士。\n18 问：你知道他是否是 G Fashion 的推广人吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反问\n1 答：我说不上来。\n2 问：你知道他穿戴推广这些商品是否能获得百分之百的折扣吗？\n3 答：我说不上来。\n4 SHROFF 女士：好的。那么，我们往下滚动。\n5 好的。还有下一页。\n6 请翻到下一页。\n7 问：你是读了所有这些内容，还是只为陪审团朗读了 Murray 女士挑选的部分？\n8 答：我只读了被要求——我被要求读的内容。\n9 SHROFF 女士：好的。下一页呢。\n10 哦，其实就是这一页。回到上面去。\n11 问：这就是你读的地方，对吧？“看一看我穿的这件皮连帽衫”，对吧？\n12 答：是的，女士。\n13 问：好的。她让你读了这部分，对吧；它看起来会有多可爱？\n14 MURRAY 女士：已问已答。\n15 法庭：异议成立。\n16 SHROFF 女士：我转到下一段。我能让她读下一段吗？\n17 答：哪一段，女士？\n18 问：“我们应该珍惜”。\n19 答：“我们应该珍惜我们已经拥有的。兄弟姐妹们，我们完全有理由感到快乐和自豪。”\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 反问\n1 问：继续。\n2 答：我得找一下位置。抱歉。\n3 问：没关系。\n4 答：“还有谁能与我们相比？但我们也必须热爱我们的战友，因为这是我们的义务。”\n5 问：好的。你是否恰好知道这份文件是翻译过来的，还是用英文写成的？\n6 答：我说不上来。\n7 SHROFF 女士：好的。我们可以撤下那个了。\n8 问：现在，特别特工 Luciano，总的来说，你作证谈到了大约多少张照片，120 张？\n9 答：我无法估计。\n10 问：你知道拍了多少张照片吗？\n11 答：不知道，女士。\n12 问：坐在这里的今天，你是否记得你搜查了多少个房间？\n13 答：不记得，女士。\n14 问：可以公平地说，距离那次搜查已经过去一年多了，对吧？\n15 答：是的，女士。\n16 问：并且是否也可以公平地说，当你与 Murray 女士会面时，她唤起了你对事件的记忆和回忆，对吗？\n17 答：并没有特别如此。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 再直接询问\n1 问：在她给你看了照片之后，你的记忆与她给你看照片之前仍然是一样的吗？\n2 答：我认为是的，是的，女士。\n3 SHROFF 女士：好的。非常感谢。我没有其他问题了。\n4 法庭：再直接询问吗？\n5 MURRAY 女士：谢谢。\n6 再直接询问\n7 由 MURRAY 女士进行：\n8 问：特别特工 Luciano，在反问中有人向你询问了关于 FBI 搜查规程的问题。你还记得那些吗？\n9 答：是的，女士。\n10 问：在执行搜查之前，Mahwah（马赫瓦）庄园是否已清理完毕？\n11 答：是的，已清理。\n12 问：你能向陪审团解释一下清理一处场所的过程需要做什么吗。\n13 答：当然。另外的一支战术小组将检查房产的整个区域，包括室外场地、任何额外建筑物以及整个住宅，以确保进入搜查的人员不会受到任何伤害或危害，此外，还会寻找诸如随身携带的武器、在房产或庄园附近的任何人以及任何动物。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Luciano - 再直接询问\n1 问：在 2023 年 3 月 15 日于 Mahwah 庄园执行搜查之前，这一过程是否发生过？\n2 答：是的，女士。\n3 问：你还被问到了关于 Mahwah 房产示意图的问题。你还记得那些吗？\n4 答：我记得。\n5 MURRAY 女士：Loftus（洛夫特斯）女士，我们能调出 NJ353 吗？\n6 哦，抱歉，是 NJ358。\n7 如果我们能放大左上角部分。这也同样可以展示给陪审团和旁听席。\n8 问：特别特工 Luciano，你记得 Shroff 女士问过你关于 Ramapo Valley Road（拉马波山谷路）下方所示建筑的问题，对吗？\n9 答：是的，女士。\n10 问：在这部分示意图上，从 Ramapo Valley Road 分岔出来的街道名称是什么？\n11 答：Emma Court（艾玛弄）。\n12 MURRAY 女士：我们可以撤下那个了。\n13 问：然后在反问中你还被问到了关于 NFSC（新中国联邦）的问题。你还记得那些吗？\n14 答：是的，女士。\n15 问：关于 G Fashion 呢？\n16 答：是的，女士。\n17 问：当你在 2023 年 3 月 15 日搜查 Mahwah 庄园时，你在该住所内的任何门上是否看到任何提及 NFSC 的标志或标牌？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：我想不起来了。\n2 问：那天在 Mahwah 住所任何房间的门口旁边，你是否看到提及 NFSC 或 G Fashion 的任何标志或标牌？\n3 答：我想不起来了。\n4 MURRAY 女士：法官阁下，没有其他问题了。\n5 法庭：再次反问吗？\n6 再次反问\n7 由 SHROFF 女士进行：\n8 问：她问了你关于 Emma Court 的问题，对吧？\n9 答：是的，女士。\n10 问：什么是 Emma Court？\n11 答：我说不上来。\n12 SHROFF 女士：好的。非常感谢。祝你今天过得愉快，女士。\n13 法庭：好的，那么。你可以退庭了。\n14 证人：谢谢。\n15 （证人退庭）\n16 法庭：控方可以传唤下一位证人。\n17 HORTON 先生：政府方传唤 Jesse Brown（杰西·布朗）。\n18 （证人宣誓）\n19 法庭：请说出你的名字并拼写。你可以就座。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 证人：Jesse Brown。J-E-S-S-E, B-R-O-W-N。\n2 法庭：请稍等片刻。\n3 你可以开始询问。\n4 HORTON 先生：谢谢，法官阁下。\n5 JESSE BROWN，\n6 由政府方传唤作证，\n7 经依法宣誓后，作证如下：\n8 直接询问\n9 由 HORTON 先生进行：\n10 问：早上好，Brown 先生。\n11 答：早上好。\n12 问：你这些天从事什么工作？\n13 答：我目前正在从事一个新项目，该项目使用 Solidity 和 Ethereum（以太坊）将我们的现实世界资产代币化。\n14 问：你在这一新项目中有雇员吗？\n15 答：目前没有。\n16 问：你在哪里开展工作？\n17 答：在佛罗里达州 Flagler Beach（弗拉格勒海滩）的家中。\n18 问：是否曾有那么一段时间，你被任命为 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）的 CEO（首席执行官）？\n19 答：是的，有的。\n20 问：你在什么时候担任 Himalaya Exchange 的 CEO？\n21 答：那应该是在 2022 年春季的某个时候。\n22 问：你担任该交易所的 CEO 多长时间？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：对不起。那应该是在2021年春季。\n2 问：Brown（布朗）先生，你担任该交易所的首席执行官（CEO）有多久？\n3\n4 答：直到我辞职——在2023年1月。\n5 HORTON（霍顿）先生：Loftus（洛夫特斯）女士，请出示已作为检方证物GX 113被采纳的证据。\n6\n7 问：布朗先生，这张图片里的人是谁？\n8 答：是我。\n9 问：拍摄这张图片时，你是该交易所的CEO吗？\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：布朗先生，作为Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）的CEO，有多少人向你汇报工作？\n12\n13 答：零。\n14 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的CEO，你掌控着什么？\n15\n16 答：在当时我什么都没掌控。\n17 问：是谁任命你为喜马拉雅交易所CEO的？\n18 答：应该是William Je（余建明）。\n19 霍顿先生：洛夫特斯女士，请调出已作为检方证物GX 103被采纳的证据。\n20\n21 请予以出示。\n22 问：布朗先生，这是谁？\n23 答：这是余建明。\n24 问：布朗先生，作为喜马拉雅交易所的CEO，你的老板是谁？\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法院速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：应该是余建明。\n2 霍顿先生：洛夫特斯女士，请撤下那份文件。\n3\n4 问：布朗先生，2023年3月15日发生了什么（如果有的话）？\n5 答：3月15日，我的房子被包围了，FBI（联邦调查局）过来带走了我的个人设备、工作设备，还有我家里的文件。\n6\n7\n8 法庭：先生，请对着麦克风说话，以便大家都能听见。如果需要，你可以把麦克风拉近一点，但要正对着它说。\n9\n10\n11 证人：好的。\n12 问：布朗先生，那天FBI来你家时有搜查令吗？\n13\n14 答：有的。\n15 问：你被逮捕了吗？\n16 答：没有。\n17 问：那之后你找律师了吗？\n18 答：找了。\n19 问：找了律师之后，你与政府会面了吗？\n20\n21 答：会面了。\n22 问：你大约与政府会面了多少次？\n23 答：四五次。\n24 问：布朗先生，你今天作证是依据一份协议进行的吗？\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：据你理解，该协议意味着什么？\n3 答：该协议意味着我不会因涉及Guo Media（郭媒体）、GTV、喜马拉雅交易所或我申请过的一份抵押贷款申请中的任何行为而被起诉。\n4\n5\n6 问：你说的抵押贷款申请，那份抵押贷款申请是怎么回事？\n7\n8 答：那是2007年的一份自报收入贷款申请。\n9 问：为什么那份抵押贷款申请会成为你与政府协议的一部分？\n10\n11 答：因为我——我虚报了我的收入。\n12 问：布朗先生，依据这份协议，你的义务是什么？\n13\n14 答：我的义务是始终说实话，在被要求时提供文件，并在需要时随时配合。\n15\n16\n17 问：布朗先生，据你理解，这份不起诉协议是否保护你免于因喜马拉雅交易所或你提到的2007年抵押贷款申请之外的其他行为而受到起诉？\n18\n19\n20\n21 答：不保护。\n22 问：据你理解，如果你今天在证人席上说谎，该不起诉协议是否保护你免于因伪证罪、妨碍司法公正或作虚假陈述而受到起诉？\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：不保护。不保护。在那类情况下协议将作废。\n2\n3 问：如果你在这里说谎，政府是否可以撕毁你的不起诉协议？\n4\n5 答：他们可以。\n6 问：那你是否会因过去的行为而被起诉？\n7 答：可能会。\n8 问：你在与政府会面时所作的陈述是否可以用来对你不利？\n9\n10 答：可以。\n11 SCHIRICK（希里克）先生：反对。这是他的理解吗？\n12 法庭：关于你理解该协议意味着什么。\n13\n14 你可以继续。\n15 问：没错，布朗先生。你是否理解如果你在这里说谎，你之前向政府作出的陈述可以被用来对你不利？\n16\n17\n18 答：我理解。\n19 问：除了这份不起诉协议，布朗先生，政府还对你作出了其他任何承诺吗？\n20\n21 答：没有。\n22 问：我现在想把你的注意力转回喜马拉雅交易所。\n23\n24 你是在哪年哪月面试那份工作的？\n25 答：应该是在2020年6月。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 问：你进行了几轮面试？\n2 答：我进行了两轮面试。\n3 问：第一次是谁面试你的？\n4 答：第一次是Yvette Wang（王雁平）和一位叫Joe（乔）的先生。\n5 问：当你接受王雁平和乔的面试时，你理解自己是在面试哪家公司？\n6\n7 答：GTV和郭媒体。\n8 问：你是从哪里进行这次面试的？\n9 答：我是从我在佛罗里达州的家中进行的。\n10 问：王雁平是从哪里对你进行面试的？\n11 答：纽约市。\n12 问：在第一次工作面试时，关于郭媒体或GTV，你知道些什么（如果有的话）？\n13\n14 答：第一次面试时我其实知道得不多。\n15 问：王雁平之后，接下来是谁面试你的？\n16 答：应该是余建明。\n17 问：你与余建明的面试是在哪里进行的？\n18 答：我实际上是在我已故母亲的家中，通过视频会议进行的面试。\n19\n20 问：在与余建明面试之后，布朗先生，你拿到工作录用通知了吗？\n21\n22 答：拿到了。\n23 问：我要向你出示标为检方证物3419的文件。\n24\n25 布朗先生，这份文件是什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：这是我的录用信。\n2 霍顿先生：检方申请采纳GX 3419。\n3 希里克先生：无异议。\n4 法庭：予以采纳。\n5 （检方证物3419被采纳为证据）\n6 霍顿先生：洛夫特斯女士，请予以出示。\n7\n8 霍顿先生继续询问：\n9 问：布朗先生，你的录用通知来自哪家公司？\n10 答：GTV Media Group（GTV传媒集团）。\n11 问：据你理解（如果有的话），GTV中的G代表什么？\n12\n13 答：我的理解是——\n14 希里克先生：反对。当时（的理解）吗？\n15 法庭：是的，当时。\n16 答：我的理解是那是——是指Miles Guo（郭文贵）。\n17 问：据你理解，谁控制着GTV？\n18 答：郭文贵。\n19 问：布朗先生，这份录用信的日期是哪一天？\n20 答：2020年6月17日。\n21 问：你是何时开始为GTV做这份工作的？\n22 答：应该就是那一周。\n23 问：当你从GTV拿到这份工作录用通知时，布朗先生，在当时关于喜马拉雅交易所你知道些什么（如果有的话）？\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：我对喜马拉雅交易所了解不多。\n2 问：当你接受这份工作录用时，即2020年6月，布朗先生，你理解自己被雇佣来做什么？\n3\n4 答：我理解我被雇来协助推出和创建加密货币，并参与构建或开发一个交易所。\n5\n6\n7 问：当你被GTV为此雇佣时，你理解你被雇来协助推出的加密货币名称是什么？\n8\n9\n10 答：当时那些加密货币的品牌名称是G Coin（G币）和G Dollar（G美元）。\n11\n12 问：据你理解，为什么它们被称为G币和G美元？\n13\n14 答：我认为是为了郭文贵。\n15 问：据你理解，布朗先生，你受雇为GTV从事的加密货币项目与郭文贵的任何其他公司之间是否存在关联？\n16\n17\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：那是什么关联？\n20 答：关联在于要与郭文贵在该生态系统中的部分实体进行合作。\n21\n22 问：你所说的生态系统是指什么？\n23 答：我指的是那些本来会接收或转移这些加密货币的实体。\n24\n25 问：除了郭文贵的公司之外，还有哪些其他公司是该喜马拉雅交易所生态系统的一部分？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1\n2 答：没有其他公司。\n3 霍顿先生：洛夫特斯女士，请放大该文件的第1段“职位与入职日期”。\n4\n5 问：布朗先生，这份文件写着你将向我们纽约市办公室的首席技术官Joe Wang（王乔）和董事王雁平汇报工作。在你接受这份工作后，你向王雁平汇报工作了吗？\n6\n7\n8\n9 答：没有。\n10 问：你向郭文贵汇报工作了吗？\n11 答：没有。\n12 问：你向王乔汇报工作了吗？\n13 答：没有。\n14 问：你向谁汇报工作？\n15 答：我向余建明汇报工作。\n16 霍顿先生：洛夫特斯女士，请撤下这份文件。\n17\n18 问：布朗先生，关于余建明和郭文贵之间的关系，你了解些什么（如果有的话）？\n19\n20 答：我并没有真正深入了解过这种关系，但我知道他们经常通话。\n21\n22 问：你是怎么知道的？\n23 答：通过——通过我们与——与公司开的会，以及余建明的陈述。\n24\n25 问：你所说的“我们与公司开的会”，你在那些会议上了解到了什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1\n2 希里克先生：以传闻证据为由反对，法官阁下。\n3 法庭：反对无效。你可以回答。\n4 问：你所说的在公司开的会，你在那些会议上了解到了关于余建明与郭文贵关系的什么情况？\n5\n6\n7 答：嗯，有好几次提到了他的名字，讨论了他的实体，以及——以及还有关于我们与他的公司开展的某些——某些——某些计划。\n8\n9\n10\n11 问：你所说的“我们与他的公司开展的计划”，这里的“我们”是谁？\n12\n13 答：喜马拉雅交易所。\n14 问：喜马拉雅交易所与郭文贵的公司开展的计划是什么？\n15\n16 答：其构想是在加密货币方面与G Fashion、G|CLUBS以及这些其他实体进行合作。\n17\n18 问：在你被GTV雇佣后，据你理解，你为什么要向余建明汇报工作？\n19\n20 答：因为余建明当时正在推出这些代币。他参与了——参与了代币的发行和推出。\n21\n22 问：你接受了GTV的工作录用。向余建明汇报是属于另一份不同的工作，还是同一份工作的一部分？\n23\n24 答：我认为这是同一份工作的一部分。\n25 问：布朗先生，Hamilton Investment Management（汉密尔顿投资管理公司）是什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：那是来自伦敦的一家基金，余建明也管理着该基金。\n2 问：当你面试GTV的加密货币工作时，当时关于汉密尔顿向你告知了什么（如果有的话）？\n3\n4\n5 答：面试时什么都没告知。\n6 问：你是何时听说汉密尔顿的？\n7 答：后来我被雇佣之后。\n8 问：你是从谁那里听说汉密尔顿的？\n9 答：余建明。\n10 问：据你理解，汉密尔顿是做什么的？\n11 答：汉密尔顿是一家投资基金。\n12 问：当你为余建明和GTV从事加密货币项目时，为什么会被告知关于它的事？\n13\n14 答：该基金也将成为该——该生态系统的一部分，并且该基金将与交易所进行合作。\n15\n16 问：你所说该基金、汉密尔顿基金将与喜马拉雅交易所合作，你的意思是什么？\n17\n18 答：嗯，他们——他们的做法是，该基金、基金内部的人被允许接触到这些——这些——这些代币。\n19\n20 问：布朗先生，退一步讲，当你在喜马拉雅交易所工作时，你是如何获得报酬的？\n21\n22 答：我是——\n23 希里克先生：反对。请明确时间范围。\n24 法庭：请将其限定在特定的时间范围内。\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 霍顿先生（MR. HORTON）：好的。\n2 问：布朗先生（Mr. Brown），您为喜马拉雅交易所（Himalaya Exchange）工作了多久？\n3 答：大约两年半。\n4 问：在那两年半期间，您是通过何种方式获取工作报酬\n5 的？\n6 希里克先生（MR. SCHIRICK）：反对。时间范围不明。\n7 答：最初——\n8 法庭（THE COURT）：从何时到何时？\n9 问：那么，布朗先生，您获取工作报酬的方式是否前后有所不同？\n10\n11 答：是的。\n12 问：您能解释一下具体是哪些方式吗？\n13 法庭：从刚开始工作时说起。\n14 霍顿先生：好的。\n15 问：从您入职时开始——\n16 法庭：那是哪一年？\n17 证人（THE WITNESS）：我入职的那年是2020年。\n18 问：您最初是如何获得工作报酬的？\n19 答：最初是由郭——Guo Media以及GTV向我支付报酬。\n20 问：付款的形式是什么？\n21 答：那是——我是每两周领一次薪水。\n22 问：您说过您领取报酬的方式不止一种。后来发生了什么？\n23 在Guo Media之后，您是如何领取报酬的？\n24 答：在年底时，我被——我被Guo Media解雇了，\n25 然后我转到了伦敦实体汉密尔顿（Hamilton）的名册上。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 问：那您是如何从伦敦实体Hamilton的名下领取报酬的？\n2\n3 答：钱是电汇到我的公司账户上的。\n4 问：您说您被解雇了。除了支付报酬的方式之外，\n5 还有什么其他变化吗（如果有的话）？\n6 答：我失去了我的健康保险。\n7 问：除了向您付款的实体以及您的健康保险福利之外，\n8 当您改为由Hamilton而不是Guo Media支付报酬时，\n9 您的工作发生了什么变化吗（如果有的话）？\n10 答：没有任何变化。\n11 问：布朗先生，您在Himalaya Exchange有同事吗？\n12\n13 答：有的。\n14 问：该交易所的同事是由谁雇用的？\n15 答：汉密尔顿集团（The Hamilton Group）。\n16 问：当您向William Je（余建明）汇报工作时，他的办公地点在哪里？\n17 答：伦敦。\n18 问：您向他汇报工作时，您自己在哪里工作？\n19 答：佛罗里达州。\n20 问：在佛罗里达州的什么地方？\n21 答：弗莱格勒海滩（Flagler Beach）。\n22 问：您在什么样的办公室里工作？\n23 答：我的家庭办公室。\n24 问：您向——撤回该问题。\n25 您在Himalaya Exchange向William Je汇报工作持续了多久？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1\n2 答：直到我于2023年1月辞职为止。\n3 问：那是一段多长的时间，布朗先生？\n4 答：那应该是两年半。\n5 问：在向他汇报工作的这两年半期间，您何时见过\n6 William Je（如果见过的话）？\n7 答：我没有见过William Je。\n8 希里克先生：反对。我们能否界定一下“见”的意思。是当面\n9 见吗？\n10 法庭：你说的是当面会面吗？\n11\n12 霍顿先生：我可以换几个不同的方式来提问，法官\n13 阁下。\n14 法庭：好的。\n15 由霍顿先生继续询问：\n16 问：布朗先生，在向William Je汇报工作的两年半时间里，您是否曾与他当面见过面？\n17\n18 答：没有。\n19 问：您在佛罗里达州的家中，是如何与交易所共同工作的其他人进行沟通的？\n20\n21 答：我们每天早晨开例会。\n22 问：William Je参加这些例会的频率如何（如果有参加的话）？\n23 答：基本上每天都参加。\n24 问：您说每日例会。它们是以什么形式进行的？\n25 答：对我和另一位在澳大利亚的员工来说是视频会议，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 但对在伦敦的其他所有人来说则是面对面的会议。\n2\n3 问：布朗先生，佛罗里达州还有其他Himalaya Exchange的员工吗？\n4\n5 答：没有。\n6 问：由谁主持您参加的这些视频会议？\n7 答：是William Je。\n8 问：在这些会议中他坐在哪里？\n9 答：他会坐在长桌的尽头。当时有——有两块屏幕。\n10 我在一个屏幕上，来自澳大利亚的合规经理在另一个屏幕上。\n11 然后各利益相关主管会坐在一起，William则坐在\n12 长椅尽头。\n13 问：请把麦克风靠近您的嘴边。\n14 答：噢。\n15 问：把它拉近一点，这样您就不用身体向前倾了。\n16\n17 您说利益相关主管参加了会议。\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：都是谁？\n20 答：利益相关主管包括首席安全官、首席财务官、\n21 首席营销官以及内部审计员。\n22\n23 问：您刚才提到的那些主管人员，他们在哪里工作？\n24 答：他们为Hamilton工作。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 问：他们在世界上的什么地方工作？\n2 答：伦敦。\n3 问：您曾当面见过他们中的任何人吗？\n4 答：没有。\n5 问：布朗先生，在Himalaya Exchange，“农场主/国家主管（country heads）”是指什么？\n6\n7 答：国家主管是协助推广该币种的人员。\n8 问：谁选拔了这些国家主管？\n9 答：我对此不能确定。\n10 问：您是如何知道国家主管都是谁的？\n11 答：在这些会议期间会谈论到他们。\n12 问：在Himalaya Exchange的会议上是谁在谈论国家主管？\n13\n14 答：那是William Je。\n15 问：您说国家主管是负责推广交易所的。\n16 那是什么意思？\n17 答：嗯，他们会——他们会出去寻找人来\n18 参与私募销售。\n19 问：在Himalaya Exchange是由谁指导这些国家主管的？\n20 答：是William Je。\n21 问：布朗先生，什么是农场（farms）？\n22 答：我不——对此我不能确定。\n23 问：什么是喜马拉雅农场联盟（Himalaya Farm Alliance）？\n24 答：我完全不——我完全不——我不知道那是什么。\n25 问：您最初是在什么时候得知被称为H Coin（喜币）和\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 H Dollar（喜美元）的东西的？\n2 答：基本上是我入职的第一天。\n3 问：布朗先生，除了名称之外，一方面是G Dollar和G Coin，\n4 另一方面是H Dollar和H Coin，两者之间有什么区别吗（如果有的话）？\n5\n6 答：没有任何区别。\n7 问：聚焦于您在2020年年中被雇用的那个时期，您当时理解雇用您是去做什么的？\n8\n9 答：我理解雇用我是去协助创建这些币。\n10\n11 问：您是为谁做那项工作的？您是在为谁创建这些币？\n12\n13 答：那是Guo Media。\n14 问：对于被雇用去创建一种币，您理解这是什么意思？\n15\n16 答：嗯，这——通常在——在加密货币行业，\n17 要开发和发行一种币需要做某些事情。\n18 问：那些事情都是什么？\n19 答：嗯，有——在以太坊（Ethereum）区块链上的技术开发是我们当时考虑的方向，\n20 然后还有撰写白皮书和提高知名度。\n21\n22 问：什么是白皮书？\n23 答：白皮书通常是一份你会——你会为某种加密货币发布的\n24 文件，其中会谈到它的效用、构建它的团队，\n25 以及，你知道，未来路线图中将要做的一些\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 事情。\n2 问：您说你们当时在考虑以太坊区块链。\n3 首先，什么是以太坊区块链？\n4 答：嗯，以太坊区块链是使用最广泛的区块链之一。\n5 你可以，你知道的，在其基础之上开发和创建代币。\n6\n7 问：在以太坊区块链之上创建代币是什么意思？\n8\n9 答：嗯，比特币（Bitcoin）本身是一个区块链，它有些\n10 不同。以太坊允许开发者通过智能合约实际在其之上构建代币。\n11\n12 问：比特币和以太坊，这些是公开发行的吗？\n13 实际上，撤回。让我退回一步。\n14 当您说区块链时，您指的是什么？\n15 答：嗯，区块链是一种公开的分布式账本，\n16 它显示该账本的所有交易。\n17 问：您说的公开分布式账本是什么意思？\n18 答：嗯，它是一个——它是一个账本，通常系统中有所谓的\n19 节点，也就是批准或否决交易的计算机。\n20\n21 问：所有区块链都是公开的吗？\n22 答：是的。\n23 问：是否存在私有区块链这种东西？\n24 答：存在私有区块链，但——但数据仍然\n25 对该联盟的成员公开。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 问：您说在您加入时交易所正在考虑以太坊区块链。\n2 但您说他们在考虑它是什么意思？\n3\n4 答：嗯，我们当时在考虑在那时使用Quorum来做。\n5 问：什么是Quorum？\n6 答：Quorum是摩根大通（JPMorgan）的一款产品，它允许——\n7 允许像我刚才说的那样，由一个私有联盟来使用区块链。\n8 问：当您刚开始从事该项目时，对于这些币是会存在于公有区块链上还是私有区块链上，\n9 您有什么了解吗（如果有的话）？\n10\n11 答：我的理解是它们将存在于私有区块链或类似于Quorum的系统上，\n12 成员将能够参与其中。\n13\n14 问：您为什么会有这种理解？\n15 答：嗯，因为那确实是——加密货币运作的唯一方式。\n16\n17 问：您说那是加密货币运作的唯一方式是什么意思？\n18 答：嗯——嗯，加密货币必须是——它是一个——它是一种\n19 公开链，所以——所以它——一切都——都能够被——\n20 被任何拥有——的人查看或看到——\n21 希里克先生：法官阁下，反对。\n22 答：——在线网络访问权限。\n23 希里克先生：我们能就此进行简短的私下协商（sidebar）吗，\n24 谢谢。\n25 法庭：好的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 （在法官席旁私下协商）\n2 希里克先生：我要提出反对。\n3 这与我们一周前针对罗伯茨先生（Mr. Roberts）的证词提出的反对意见相同。\n4 我们在这里正偏向于专家证词的范畴。我知道布朗先生曾\n5 在加密货币和区块链行业任职，就像罗伯茨先生在加密货币和区块链\n6 行业任职一样。\n7 但他并未被作为专家证人发出通知，他也未被认定具备专家证人资格，\n8 而让他就，你知道的，一般性话题作证，如果您审阅\n9 庭审记录的话，我认为这现在正在偏向于关于他对加密货币运作方式\n10 和区块链运作方式的看法的意见性证词……现在\n11 提问可能并不是那样表述的。霍顿先生很小心地没有使用“看法”\n12 或“意见”这样的词。但\n13 回答是属于意见。\n14 霍顿先生：法官阁下，这是典型符合第701条规则（Rule 701）的\n15 证词。他是被雇用的——首先，背景是，他是被一名代理人，\n16 本案共谋犯罪中被指控的同谋之一雇用的。他首先是由\n17 GTV Media雇用的，随后向一名被指控实施共谋的同谋代理人汇报工作。\n18 他是一名内部知情人士。他与罗伯茨先生截然不同，\n19 罗伯茨先生是从外部切入此事，并从外部对此进行了有限的几个月调查。\n20\n21 布朗先生在内部待了两年半，现在问他的问题是关于，当您被……雇用时，\n22\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n共谋者，关于向被告汇报的人员。你当时理解自己受雇是去做什么的？当你说你受雇在区块链上做某些事情时，这在当时对你意味着什么？这是他作为阴谋的内部知情人向陪审团提供关于他在实时中亲眼所见之背景的唯一途径。\nSCHIRICK 先生：法官阁下，我们可以看笔录。我也许不对，但我认为证人已经回答了关于他认为自己受雇做什么的问题，然后接下来的问题偏向了——这可能不是提问者的错，但回答偏向了那个大体领域。\n法庭：请读回上一个问题和回答。\n（记录宣读）\nSCHIRICK 先生：这就是关于该事物如何运作的泛泛问题的实质，这是不当的。\n法庭：他受雇创建这个加密货币交易所，因此不让他讨论他对自己必须做的事情的理解会很奇怪。\nSCHIRICK 先生：好吧，再次声明，如果他是在自己受雇做什么的背景下讨论他的理解，这是另一码事。我明白这一点，法官阁下。但我认为，您知道，那个回答是一个更泛泛的回答，一个更宽泛的回答。再次声明，我们只是试图在这里把控好 expert testimony（专家证词）之间的界线，我们提出反对。这与是否存在 co-conspirator exception（共谋者例外）或是否存在 hearsay（传闻证据）异议无关。因此，您知道，他在 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）工作、向 William Je（余建明）汇报这一事实，实际上并不重要。只是已经给出的回答，或者正在给出的回答，我认为偏向了专家证词。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n法庭：那么你预计要深入到什么程度？\nHORTON 先生：他是喜马拉雅交易所这家加密货币交易所两年半的首席执行官。他亲身经历了那些向全世界展示为加密货币项目的项目。他的证词是关于这些项目实际上是什么，从他作为首席执行官的实时视角来看。因此，如果他提到像 blockchain（区块链）、Quorum 这样的术语，或者陪审团不会知道的东西，我认为作为阴谋的内部知情人，问他这在当时阴谋中意味着什么，是公平的。你理解它是什么意思？如果存在差异，为什么？\n法庭：所以你预计他会说被创建出来的东西与他所预期的不一致？\nHORTON 先生：是的。\n法庭：可以。\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n（在公开法庭中）\n法庭：陪审团成员们，现在是 11 点 30 分，我们现在休庭半小时。\n请记住，不要在你们之间或与任何其他人讨论本案。不要允许任何人在你们面前讨论本案。不要阅读、收听或观看来自任何触及本案标的事项的渠道的任何内容。\n还有这位先生，你可以走出法庭。不要讨论你的证词。\n（陪审团不在场）\n（证人不在场）\n法庭：在我们中午返回之前还有什么事吗？\nHORTON 先生：检方没有。\nSCHIRICK 先生：辩方没有，法官阁下。\n（休庭）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n下午庭审\n中午 12:00\n法庭：请带陪审员进来。\n法庭书记官：陪审团入庭。\n（陪审团在场）\n法庭：请记住，先生，你处于宣誓状态。你可以继续询问。\nHORTON 先生：谢谢你，法官阁下。\n由 HORTON 先生提问：\n问：Brown（布朗）先生，休庭前你正在讨论你对自己受雇从事的加密货币和交易所项目的理解。关于你受雇从事的代币将在公有区块链上还是在私有区块链上，你当时有什么理解？\n答：我的理解是它们将在公有区块链上。\n问：如果有的话，你理解……休庭前你提到了一个叫 Quorum 的东西。你能提醒陪审团 Quorum 是什么吗？\n答：Quorum 是 JPMorgan（摩根大通）的一个开源区块链，是 ethereum（以太坊）的企业级链。\n问：Quorum 是公有区块链还是私有区块链？\n答：它是一个私有区块链。\n问：当你受雇从事 GTV 的加密货币项目时，关于 Quorum 区块链在该项目中扮演的角色，你有什么理解（如果有的话）？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n答：我的理解是它将是代币分发、转账和交易的链。\n问：那么，布朗先生，在你在喜马拉雅交易所的两年半时间里，客户在什么时候（如果有过的话）可以在区块链上购买 H Coin（喜币）？\n答：从没有。\n问：客户在什么时候（如果有过的话）可以在区块链上购买 H Dollar（喜美元）？\n答：从没有。\n问：这是你在 2020 年接受这份工作时的预期吗？\nSCHIRICK 先生：反对，问过并已回答。\n法庭：反对无效。你可以回答。\n答：不是。\n问：关于你开发的代币类型，你当时的预期是什么？\n答：我预期的是构建在 Quorum 链之上的东西，以及属于典型加密货币形态的东西。\nSCHIRICK 先生：反对。\n法庭：你是在说你预期的样子吗？\n证人：是的。\n法庭：继续。\n问：你说你预期它是典型加密货币形态的东西，你在交易所实际观察到的情况与你预期的典型加密货币形态有何不同？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n答：交易所使用的只是一个数据库。它不是区块链。\n问：你说的数据库是什么？那是什么意思？\n答：嗯，数据库是一种典型的技术工具，数据由计算机存储和访问。\n问：喜马拉雅交易所使用的数据库叫什么名字？\n答：我相信是 Posgrest（PostgreSQL）。\n问：你能拼写一下吗。\n答：我相信是 P-O-S-G-R-E-S-T。\n问：这个数据库和电子表格相比如何？\n答：它与电子表格类似，只是它不仅允许结构化数据，还允许非结构化数据。\n问：这个数据库在区块链上吗？\n答：不在。\n问：如果它不在区块链上，它在哪里？\n答：它由交易所及其在那里的技术团队控制。\n问：作为交易所的首席执行官，你能访问这个内部数据库吗？\n答：我不能。\n问：为什么不能？\n答：我不被允许访问他们在伦敦构建的任何技术。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n问：你说你不被允许访问交易所构建的任何技术，是什么意思？\n答：出于安全原因，只有伦敦的一小群人有访问权限。\n问：作为首席执行官，你是否曾问过余建明为什么你无法访问交易所的内部数据库？\n答：我没有。\n问：为什么没有？\n答：我只是觉得首席安全官和首席运营官才是真正在管理那件事的人。\n问：如果客户不能在区块链上购买喜币，他们可以从交易所购买什么？\n答：他们可以购买 credits（积分/信用点）。\n问：当你受雇从事这个 GTV 加密货币项目时，当时有人告诉你关于积分的事吗？\n答：没有，并没有。\n问：喜马拉雅交易所的积分是什么？\n答：积分是指当人们加入交易所时，他们会用存入账户的美元购买特定的积分，然后他们会收到用于加密货币的积分。\n问：喜马拉雅交易所的积分名称是什么？\n答：积分的名称，你能重复一下吗？\n问：当然。人们在喜马拉雅交易所可以购买的积分叫什么名字，它们被称作什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n答：Himalaya Dollar（喜马拉雅美元）和 Himalaya Coin（喜马拉雅币）。\n问：喜马拉雅美元积分和喜马拉雅币积分与喜马拉雅美元和喜马拉雅币是相同还是不同？\n答：它们是不同的。\n问：它们有何不同？\n答：喜马拉雅美元是有资产支持的稳定币。对于每一个喜马拉雅美元，都应由银行账户中的一美元支持。\n问：喜马拉雅美元积分与喜马拉雅美元稳定币有何不同？\n答：没有不同。\n问：你说不是相同的？\n答：不，它是相同的。\n问：它是相同的？\n答：是的。\n问：当有人购买喜马拉雅美元积分时，他们实际上是在购买喜马拉雅美元吗？\n答：他们是在购买对应美元的积分，而不是美元本身。\n问：这些积分，喜马拉雅美元积分、喜马拉雅币积分，它们存放在哪里？\n答：我相信它们是存储在数据库上的。\n问：客户可以在区块链上购买喜马拉雅币积分和喜马拉雅美元积分吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n答：他们不能。\n问：根据你当时作为交易所首席执行官的理解，这些积分是加密货币吗？\n答：不，它们不是。\nSCHIRICK 先生：反对，法官阁下。\n法庭：反对无效。\n问：布朗先生，根据你当时作为喜马拉雅交易所首席执行官的理解，这些积分是加密货币吗？\nSCHIRICK 先生：同样的反对。\n法庭：他已经回答了那个问题。\nHORTON 先生：抱歉，法官阁下。我不确定陪审团是否听到了回答。\n答：你能重复一下吗。\n法庭：不用。他回答了这个问题。他回答过了。\n问：你最早从谁那里听说了积分的事？\n答：我最早是在一次会议、团队会议上从余建明那里听说了积分。\n问：那么，布朗先生，余建明在这次会议上关于积分说了什么？\n答：他谈论它们时，就好像它们是游乐园积分一样，你买票入场，离开公园时将它们兑现。\n问：当你听到余建明那样描述积分时，你是怎么想的？\n答：觉得有点可笑。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n问：对你来说可笑的地方在哪里？\n答：这有点完全违背了加密货币的本质，对吧——\nSCHIRICK 先生：反对，法官阁下。\n法庭：反对无效。你可以继续。\n问：布朗先生，你说喜马拉雅交易所的积分完全违背了加密货币的本质，是什么意思？\n答：嗯，加密货币的本质是关于公有链，交易对所有人可见。而在那条链上发生的一切，人们都有权限访问。这根本不是那样。\n问：为什么积分根本不是那样？\nSCHIRICK 先生：同样的反对。\n法庭：先生，你是基于你个人的理解在陈述。对吗？\n证人：是的。\n法庭：继续。\n问：布朗先生，为什么作为喜马拉雅交易所的前首席执行官，为什么在你看来、为什么根据你的理解，交易所的积分根本不同于你刚才描述的加密货币？\n答：因为积分是被掩盖/不透明的。它们不像公有区块链那样是公开可知的信息，也不像私有链对所有联盟成员那样公开。\n问：你之前说过你曾协助起草交易所的白皮书……\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 交易所？\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：这些白皮书是在哪里发布的？\n4 答：它们发布在喜马拉雅交易所（Himalaya Exchange）的网站上。\n5 问：公众是否可以查阅？\n6 答：可以。\n7 问：这些白皮书是否讨论了 HCN 和 HDO 积分（credits）？\n8 答：是的，讨论了。\n9 问：您是否曾向 William Je（余建明）询问过为什么交易所使用积分而不是区块链上的加密货币？\n10\n11 答：是的，我问过。\n12 问：您是怎么问他的？\n13 答：我问他为什么我们要采用这种模式，而不是直接在链上发币。\n14\n15 问：当您询问 William Je 为什么交易所不在区块链上发行积分时，他是怎么说的？\n16\n17 答：当时我们正在寻找发币的地点，英属维尔京群岛（British Virgin Islands）是他们选定的管辖区。而且当时英属维尔京群岛的法律顾问给出了这样的建议。\n18\n19\n20\n21 问：Brown 先生，您在交易所工作了两年半。在您任职期间的任何时候，H Coin（喜币）和 H Dollar（喜美元）是否能在区块链上进行买卖？\n22\n23\n24 SCHIRICK 先生：反对。\n25 法庭：已问过并已回答。您无需\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 回答。\n2 问：Brown 先生，如果您认为这些积分不是加密货币，您为什么没有离职？\n3\n4 SCHIRICK 先生：反对。\n5 法庭：您可以回答。\n6 答：我留下来工作是为了领薪水。\n7 问：当时您在交易所工作时，您是否认为这是一家合法的企业？\n8\n9 答：是的。是的。\n10 问：在您那里工作时，您是否认为自己是在犯罪？\n11\n12 答：我不认为，没有。\n13 问：请提醒陪审团，您是什么时候离开交易所的？\n14 答：2023年1月。\n15 问：顺便问一下，Brown 先生，在您任职期间，G/Club 是喜马拉雅交易所的客户吗？\n16\n17 答：是的。\n18 问：G/Club 使用交易所是用来做什么的？\n19 答：我认为是用于购买 G/Club 会员资格的资金转账。\n20\n21 问：您当时理解那意味着什么吗？\n22 答：我不理解。\n23 问：您有问过 William Je 那意味着什么吗？\n24 答：我没有。\n25 问：总的来说，Brown 先生，据您的理解，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 William Je 是如何对待您的观点和意见的？\n2 答：怎么说呢，我想是因为我在佛罗里达州，无法像伦敦的许多人那样经常能同他直接进言，所以我的大多数构想、策略或想法其实从未真正落地实现。\n3\n4\n5\n6 问：作为交易所的 CEO（首席执行官），您的想法没有落地实现，这对您的任职经历产生了怎样的影响（如果有的话）？\n7\n8\n9 SCHIRICK 先生：反对提问形式。\n10 法庭：您可以回答。\n11 答：我只是觉得自己有点像个傀儡，就像公司的门面。对于发生的任何事情，我其实都没有任何发言权。\n12\n13\n14 问：您为什么觉得自己像个傀儡？您这么说是什么意思？\n15\n16 SCHIRICK 先生：已问过并已回答。\n17 法庭：您可以解释一下傀儡（strawman）是什么意思。\n18 答：傀儡就是那种在决策中其实没有任何发言权的人，对吧。他们只是充当门面，但实际上对各项决定没有任何实质参与。\n19\n20\n21 问：Brown 先生，据您的理解（如果有的话），交易所为什么要让您来充当门面？\n22\n23 答：我认为部分原因是我愿意搬去 BVI（英属维尔京群岛），而且我认为另一部分原因是我在 DTCC（美国存管信托与清算公司）以及福特汽车（Ford）从事区块链相关工作的经验。\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 问：那么在交易所工作时，您是否觉得自己能够发挥出那些经验？\n2\n3 答：完全没有。\n4 问：您说您愿意搬去 BVI，您最终搬去了吗？\n5\n6 答：我从未真正搬去那里。\n7 问：您曾为交易所去过 BVI 吗？\n8 答：去过。\n9 问：您为交易所在那里做了些什么？\n10 答：一部分时间用来寻找办公场地。还有一部分时间用于与电信服务商洽谈潜在的数据机房事宜，另外有时我也在处理那里的监管沙盒申请。\n11\n12\n13\n14 问：交易所是否曾在 BVI 取得过任何物业？\n15 答：我们没有。\n16 问：是否曾在 BVI 建立过数据机房？\n17 答：没有。\n18 问：沙盒申请的结果如何？\n19 答：被拒绝了。\n20 问：什么是沙盒申请？\n21 答：沙盒申请是指您申请交易所牌照时，会被放入一个类似于测试期的沙盒中，以观察一切是否合规，以及您在公司开展的所有业务是否符合他们的指导方针。\n22\n23\n24\n25 问：就是那份申请被拒绝了吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：您在 BVI 期间，每天处理交易所的项目多长时间？\n3\n4 答：大概三四个小时。\n5 问：这与您回到佛罗里达州处理交易所工作的时间相比如何？\n6\n7 答：大致相同。\n8 问：您喜欢呆在 BVI 吗？\n9 答：喜欢。\n10 问：除了每天为交易所工作三小时之外，您在那里还做了什么？\n11\n12 答：我去冲浪了。\n13 问：Brown 先生，2020年您被聘用时的职务是什么？\n14 答：我想是区块链副经理（Associate blockchain manager）。\n15 问：您是否曾谋求——是否有过您谋求 CEO 职务的时候？\n16\n17 答：没有。\n18 问：您是如何得知自己被任命为 CEO 的？\n19 答：在一次我们的利益相关者会议上，William 任命我为 CEO。\n20\n21 问：在会议上发生这一幕之前，您知道会发生这件事吗？\n22\n23 答：我不知道。\n24 问：这在当次会议的议程上吗？\n25 答：不在。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 问：当您听到 William 说您是他们的 CEO 时，您的反应是什么？\n2\n3 答：我感到非常惊讶。\n4 问：您为什么感到惊讶？\n5 答：我不认为自己是当 CEO 的料。\n6 问：您这么说是什么意思？为什么您不是当 CEO 的料？\n7 答：嗯，我极其不擅长公开演讲。我其实并不了解担任首席执行官所涉及的各种运作机制。我是个搞技术的人。\n8\n9\n10 问：在那之前您当过 CEO 吗？\n11 答：我没有。\n12 问：您曾经领导过任何机构吗？\n13 答：没有。\n14 问：Brown 先生，在您被任命为 CEO 之后，您所做的工作发生了哪些变化（如果有的话）？\n15\n16 答：我想我是更多地参与到了市场营销方面。\n17 问：更多地参与交易所的市场营销方面具体涉及哪些内容？\n18\n19 答：意味着要参加一些视频录制环节，以及接受市场营销团队安排给我的采访。\n20\n21 问：您所说的采访是市场营销团队安排给您的，是什么意思？\n22\n23 答：他们会决定我和谁交谈以及何时交谈。他们会设定议程。\n24\n25 问：在这些采访中您通常会谈论哪些方面的内容？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1\n2 答：谈论交易所、代币以及所使用的技术。\n3\n4 问：您是否了解交易所为什么要您接受公开采访？\n5\n6 答：不了解。就像我说的，我很不擅长这些。\n7 问：您是否曾问过 William Je 为什么要让我做这些？\n8\n9 答：没有，我只是认为这是我必须要做的事。\n10 问：Brown 先生，2021年11月交易所发生了什么情况（如果有的话）？\n11\n12 答：那是我们正式上线（launch）的时候。\n13 问：您所说的正式上线是什么意思？\n14 答：交易所——在上线之前，曾对 HCN 代币或 H Dollar 代币进行过私募发售。人们充值购买 H Dollar。然后当交易所上线时，将是人们首次可以购买这些代币。\n15\n16\n17\n18 问：您提到的私募发售，人们购买的是 H Coin 还是 H Coin 积分？\n19\n20 答：他们购买的是 H Coin 积分。\n21 问：他们购买的是 H Dollar 还是 H Dollar 积分？\n22 答：他们购买的是 H Dollar 积分。\n23 问：您所说的为上线做准备，为上线做准备是什么意思？\n24\n25 答：曾进行过预售，在交易所上线前筹集了1亿美元。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1\n2 问：上线的日期是哪一天？\n3 答：2021年11月1日。\n4 问：据您的理解，为什么选择那个日期进行上线？\n5\n6 答：据我的理解，那是 Miles Guo（郭文贵）下达的最后截止日期。\n7\n8 问：您是如何得知这一点的？\n9 答：嗯，我们当时在推进交易所上线方面确实非常艰难。在此前的几个月里曾多次计划上线，但每次我们都失败了，后来到了一个节点，必须一锤定音。无论发生什么，我们都必须在11月1日让交易所上线。\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14 问：Miles Guo 在交易所拥有头衔吗？\n15 答：据我所知没有。\n16 问：他是否参加过与 William Je 的那些每日视频会议？\n17\n18 答：没有。\n19 问：据您的理解，那个最后截止的上线日期是如何从 Miles Guo 那里传达出来的？\n20\n21 答：是在那之后我与一些团队成员的交谈中获知的，再有就是——\n22\n23 SCHIRICK 先生：针对传闻证据提出反对。\n24 法庭：反对无效。您可以继续。\n25 问：Brown 先生，问题是您是如何得知 Miles Guo 下达了让交易所于2021年11月上线的指示的？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1\n2\n3 SCHIRICK 先生：法官阁下，我们能否就此进行一次简短的边案讨论（sidebar）？\n4\n5 法庭：可以。\n6 （续见下一页）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 （在法庭边案处）\n2 法庭：Horton 先生，您预计他是否会说与他交谈的人属于涉嫌共谋的成员？\n3\n4\n5 HORTON 先生：是的。他将要说明的是，在喜马拉雅交易所与 William Je 共事的人告诉他交易所正在为 Miles Guo 做些什么。\n6\n7\n8 SCHIRICK 先生：法官阁下，问题在于，共谋人例外（co-conspirator exception）适用到何种程度，以及政府方必须举证建立到何种程度。按照我们对法庭意见的理解，该例外要求能够作为传闻证据转述的必须是特定人员作出的特定陈述。现在，我们甚至都不知道他指的是谁。他仅仅说的是交易所的人员，对吧。那么是否每一个人——我们理解法庭在审前的裁定是没有允许传闻证据的概括性例外。仅仅因为此处的各实体中有人与证人有过交谈。而现在我们面临的正是这种情况。\n9\n10\n11\n12\n13\n14\n15\n16\n17\n18\n19\n20 HORTON 先生：法官阁下，现在已有数分钟甚至数小时的证据显示被告在谈论 G Dollar、G Coin、H Dollar、H Coin 以及交易所，有他谈论这些的视频。还有 William Je 的证词。William Je 当时在掌管该项目。他被指控为共谋人。Brown 先生所获取的信息来自于在喜马拉雅交易所直接为 William Je 工作的人员，该交易所正是此项 RICO（《反敲诈勒索及腐败组织法》）共谋犯罪中的犯罪工具，这些人告诉了他正在发生的事情。\n21\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1\n2\n3 SCHIRICK 先生：法官阁下，指明 William Je 说了某些将由该证人确认的话，与提出为 Je 先生工作的未具名人员的看法之间，是有区别的。\n4\n5\n6\n7 HORTON 先生：存在共谋人例外。同时也存在代理人例外。他们共同工作。他是被代理人/主犯（principal），并且代表共谋人发言。这是可以被采纳的。\n8\n9\n10\n11 法庭：好的。我准许采纳。我已作出裁定。\n12\n13 （续见下一页）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 （在公开法庭进行；陪审团在场）\n2 法庭：异议驳回。你可以继续。\n3 由霍顿先生（Mr. Horton）发问：\n4 问：布朗先生（Mr. Brown），刚才的问题是，你是如何得知是 Miles Guo（郭文贵）下达指令让该交易所于 2021年11月1日 上线的？\n5 答：是在上线之后与一些同事进行交谈，以及在上线期间，当时 GTV 正在进行一场大型宣传展示。\n6 问：在喜马拉雅交易所（Himalaya Exchange）上线当天的 GTV 宣传展示中，你承担了什么角色（如果有的话）？\n7 答：我原本要在上线后、交易所一经上线就进行现场直播发言。\n8 问：你从哪里接到这项任务的？\n9 答：我从 William Je（余建明）那里接到的这项任务。\n10 问：我们稍后再回到这个问题上。\n11 你在上线当天是首席执行官吗？\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：在临近上线的那几天里你是首席执行官吗？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：依你之见，当时该交易所准备好上线了吗？\n16 答：没有。\n17 问：为什么没有准备好上线？\n18 答：我们在技术方面苦苦挣扎了很久。我和技术负责人谈过很多次，他们也有同感。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 问：你提到在技术方面苦苦挣扎，这是什么意思？\n2 答：意思是说我们无法按时交付。当时正值疫情。很难招到真正有才华的区块链开发人员，我们确实没有按时交付所需的技能组合或手段。\n3 问：2021年11月1日 当天，交易所原定于什么时间上线？\n4 答：我相信是上午九点或十点。\n5 问：那它实际上是什么时间上线的？\n6 答：晚上十一点。\n7 问：为什么会这样？\n8 答：因为根本没准备好。而且根据我和别人的谈话了解，是一名开发人员在那段时间里匆忙把交易所拼凑起来以便上线的。\n9 问：那是怎么发生的？\n10 一名开发人员匆忙把交易所拼凑起来这件事是怎么发生的？\n11 答：我猜他就像是当时在那里的顶级超人开发人员，然后他自己全权接手搞定的。\n12 问：布朗先生，在交易所当天上线之后，此时客户能够在区块链上购买喜币（H Coin）吗？\n13 答：不能。\n14 问：上线之后，客户能够在区块链上购买喜美元（H Dollar）吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：不能。\n2 希里克先生（Mr. Schirick）：反对，重复提问且已作答。\n3 法庭：异议驳回。你可以回答。\n4 答：不能。\n5 问：你说过上线当天在 GTV 上有一场长时间的直播，你参与了吗？\n6 答：参与了。\n7 问：你是在哪里录制你的访谈的？\n8 答：在我在佛罗里达州的办公室。\n9 问：在 GTV 上采访你的人，你知道他们是在哪里直播的吗？\n10 答：我不知道。\n11 问：你当时——你能向陪审团大概描述一下那天的情况吗，对你来说是怎样的感受？\n12 答：嗯，压力很大。我本该在十点发言。我不太擅长公开演讲，所以我有点紧张。我认为技术还没准备好，然后就一直拖延了几个小时又几个小时，这导致了更多的焦虑。\n13 问：具体来说，那天、也就是上线那天，你被要求在 GTV 上做什么？\n14 答：我认为仅仅是接受采访。\n15 问：洛夫特斯女士（Ms. Loftus），请调出被标记为 GX3401 的证据，只向证人展示。然后静音，洛夫特斯女士，请为证人滚动浏览一下。布朗先生，这是什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：这应该是我在上线当天的访谈。\n2 霍顿先生：政府方提呈证据 GX-3401。\n3 希里克先生：无异议。\n4 法庭：予以采纳。\n5 （政府方第 3401 号物证被采纳为证据）\n6 问：洛夫特斯女士，请将其向法庭公开展示，能否调至 1分45秒 处，并为全场播放声音。\n7 （播放音视频资料）\n8 问：布朗先生，你说过“我们经历了一些延迟，但我们想确保我们把它做好了，我认为我们已经做到了”。\n9 你认为交易所那天做好了吗？\n10 答：没有。\n11 问：那你为什么在 GTV 上这么说？\n12 答：因为害怕破坏整个上线。\n13 问：洛夫特斯女士，我们能调到 2:45 处吗？\n14 （播放音视频资料）\n15 问：布朗先生，当时问你的问题是“与比特币等其他加密货币相比，喜币有什么优势”。\n16 当你在 GTV 上被问到这个问题时，喜币是像比特币一样的加密货币吗？\n17 希里克先生：反对，重复提问且已作答。\n18 法庭：异议驳回。你可以回答。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：它不是。\n2 问：为什么不是？\n3 答：它不在区块链上。\n4 问：你在视频中的回答说“我们使用了我们所拥有的许可链”，你所说的许可链是指什么？\n5 答：Quorum。\n6 问：在这次访谈之日，客户能够使用 Quorum 购买喜币或喜美元吗？\n7 答：他们不能。\n8 问：你在这次访谈中的回答是真实的吗，布朗先生？\n9 答：不真实。\n10 问：你为什么在这些访谈中撒谎？\n11 答：同样，我害怕在发币上线期间引发大规模抛售，而且我某种程度上是在顺从公司的统一口径来决定在这些活动中该说什么。\n12 问：你所说的公司统一口径是什么意思？\n13 答：嗯，有一些特定的谈话要点，你知道的，是我们必须随时谈论的，其中之一就是 Quorum 链。\n14 问：你是从哪里得知那些谈话要点应该是什么的？\n15 答：那应该是来自法务团队以及市场营销团队。\n16 问：交易所的法务和市场营销部门向谁汇报？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：William Je。\n2 问：布朗先生，2021年11月 这次 GTV 访谈是你唯一一次代表交易所公开接受采访吗？\n3 答：不是。\n4 问：在那些其他的访谈中，你有说过关于交易所及其代币的不实言论吗？\n5 答：我说过。\n6 问：你在这些其他访谈中撒谎的内容是什么？\n7 答：实际上就是不断谈论该代币在区块链上以及我们使用的是 Quorum。\n8 问：你刚才说你害怕引发抛售？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：什么是抛售？\n11 答：嗯，抛售是指市场上出现恐慌，人们争相抛售自己的货币。\n12 问：如果发生抛售，对喜币的价格会有什么影响（如果有的话）？\n13 答：它会使价格下跌。\n14 问：上线当天喜币的价格发生了什么变化？\n15 答：它暴涨了。\n16 问：暴涨是什么意思？\n17 答：在我接受采访时，它从 10美分 涨到了 1美元，后来在 14天 内涨到了 20美元。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 问：作为当时交易所的首席执行官，你对——嗯，让我这样问你吧。\n2 你看到这种价格暴涨是什么反应？\n3 答：有点惊讶。\n4 问：为什么会这样？\n5 答：对于一种实际上只在一家小型交易所交易的代币来说，这算是一个巨大的飞跃。它没有上线任何大型交易所。\n6 问：你所说的该代币没有上线任何大型交易所是什么意思？\n7 答：嗯，通常当你发行一种代币时，会有两家交易所接纳你。当这种情况发生时，这种代币就会在很多对代币进行排名并显示价格的网站上公布，就像纳斯达克（NASDAQ）那样。所以，我们根本不是那样。因此全球范围内对我们代币的认知度根本不存在。\n8 问：当喜币价格如你所解释的那样上涨时，布朗先生，此时客户能够持有喜币，还是能够持有喜币信用额度？\n9 希里克先生：反对。\n10 法庭：你可以回答。\n11 希里克先生：一再重复。\n12 答：信用额度。\n13 问：你有没有问过 William Je 对这种价格暴涨是否有合理解释？\n14 答：没有。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 问：喜币是否曾经在喜马拉雅交易所以外的其他交易所上市？\n2 答：没有。\n3 问：喜美元呢？\n4 答：没有。\n5 问：作为当时该交易所的首席执行官，据你了解，为什么喜币和喜美元除了喜马拉雅交易所以外没有在任何其他地方上市？\n6 答：利益相关者之间相当担心如果在其他交易所上市，价格会下跌。\n7 问：对价格下跌抱有这种担忧的利益相关者是谁？\n8 答：几乎所有人，包括首席安全官、法务团队和首席运营官。\n9 问：据你了解，为什么将喜币和喜美元在其他交易所上市可能会导致价格下跌？\n10 答：嗯，因为那将允许自由市场在更广泛的范围内参与，所以更多的人可以进来，这将给拥有该代币的人更多的流动性来进行抛售。\n11 问：为什么交易所不希望那样？\n12 希里克先生：反对。\n13 法庭：“交易所”这个词，为什么交易所不希望那样？你指的是谁？\n14 问：布朗先生，你当时是首席执行官？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：据你了解，为什么交易所的利益相关者不希望这些代币或美元在另一家交易所上市？\n3 答：因为担心价格会下跌。\n4 问：什么是蜂鸟机器人（humming bot）？你知道那是什么吗？\n5 答：知道。\n6 问：请你拼写一下好吗？\n7 答：H-U-M-M-I-N-G，B-O-T。\n8 问：什么是蜂鸟机器人？\n9 答：它是一种在交易中同时进行买卖双向操作的软件。它会自动买入和卖出。\n10 问：喜马拉雅交易所使用了蜂鸟机器人吗？\n11 答：使用了。\n12 问：你是怎么知道的？\n13 答：在好几次会议中都谈到了这件事。\n14 问：是谁告诉你交易所正在使用蜂鸟机器人的？\n15 答：是 David Fallon（戴维·法伦）。\n16 问：David Fallon 是谁？\n17 答：他是汉密尔顿基金（Hamilton Fund）的基金经理。\n18 问：David Fallon 为谁工作？\n19 答：William Je。\n20 问：作为该交易所的首席执行官，据你了解，为什么交易所要使用蜂鸟机器人？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：主要有两个目的。一个是——机器人通常用于交易量较低、交易者不多的情况下。这对其他投资者来说不是好兆头，因为他们不想看到一座空城，所以这些机器人会自动交易以给人一种活跃的假象。\n2 问：为什么它们被称为机器人？\n3 答：因为它们是自动化的。背后没有人操控。它只是软件。\n4 问：你说了低交易量的情况？\n5 答：是的。\n6 问：这是什么意思？\n7 答：低交易量情况意味着交易量不大。通常一个交易所每天的交易量都在数以百万计。\n8 问：当时你在喜马拉雅交易所观察到了低交易量的情况吗？\n9 答：是的。在上线后逐渐恶化。\n10 问：随着交易量逐渐恶化，价格发生了什么变化（如果有的话）？\n11 答：价格在很大程度上保持稳定。\n12 问：据你了解，这是怎么回事？\n13 答：据我了解，是机器人在带动大量的交易并支撑着价格。\n14 问：你有没有就蜂鸟机器人的事问过 William Je？\n15 答：我没有。\n16 问：为什么没有？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：那是 David Fallon（大卫·法伦）基金的一项任务。\n2 问：Brown（布朗）先生，您是否在某个时候获悉了任何关于\n3 GTV 与 SEC（美国证券交易委员会）的情况？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：在您获悉这方面信息时，您是否担任首席执行官？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：您获悉了什么？\n8 首先，什么是 SEC？\n9 答：Securities Exchange Commission（证券交易委员会）。\n10 问：当您担任 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）首席执行官期间，\n11 您获悉了关于 GTV 和 SEC 的什么情况？\n12 答：我获悉他们与 SEC 达成了和解，\n13 SEC 的部分内容指出，Miles Guo（郭文贵）不得\n14 直接或间接参与任何加密货币或证券的发行。\n15\n16 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的首席执行官，您为何会获悉\n17 该信息？\n18 答：我通常会阅读一些 SEC 的申报文件，因为当时\n19 FTX 及其崩盘事件引发了很多情况，\n20 基本上是为了了解后续的合规要求，因为\n21 合规在这个领域是一件非常困难的事情，所以你有点\n22 必须去把握行业的动向。\n23 问：当您获悉存在关于加密货币的 GTV 与 SEC 和解协议时，\n24 您采取了什么行动（如果有的话）？\n25 答：我在其中一次会议上提了出来。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 问：布朗先生，这是一次喜马拉雅交易所的会议吗？\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：您为什么要在喜马拉雅交易所的会议上提出\n4 GTV 与 SEC 的和解协议？\n5 答：因为当时郭文贵围绕该交易所做了大量的营销宣传，\n6 我觉得这属于间接参与。\n7\n8 问：您说的郭文贵围绕交易所进行营销宣传是什么意思？\n9\n10 答：他在自己的平台上多次谈及该交易所。他\n11 创作了一首在 iTunes（苹果音乐平台）上发布的关于 HCN to the moon（喜币飞向月球）的歌曲。\n12 问：您听过那首歌吗？\n13 答：听过。\n14 问：在加入喜马拉雅交易所之前，您从事过区块链行业吗？\n15\n16 答：从事过。\n17 问：对您而言，“HCN to the Moon”这个标题意味着什么（如果有的话）？\n18\n19 答：嗯，“to the moon（飞向月球/暴涨）”是加密货币领域的流行语，意思是大家都想投资某种币，然后它的价格一飞冲天直上月球。\n20\n21 问：布朗先生，就您的理解而言，郭文贵为什么要制作一首名为《H Coin to the Moon》（喜币飞向月球）的歌曲？\n22\n23 SCHIRICK 律师：反对。\n24 法庭：证人可以回答。\n25 答：我不知道我对原因是否有过理解。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 问：您说过您在喜马拉雅交易所的一次会议上提出了 GTV 的和解协议，谁参加了这次会议？\n2\n3 答：我之前提到的利益相关方，以及 William Je（余建明）和法务主管。\n4\n5 问：法务主管是谁？\n6 答：我相信名字叫 Priya Patel（普里亚·帕特尔）。\n7 问：关于这份 GTV 加密货币和解协议，您在这次会议上说了什么？\n8\n9 答：嗯，我提出了这个问题，因为我觉得，你知道的，通过宣传这种币以及谈论这种币，就构成了对其间接参与。\n10\n11\n12 SCHIRICK 律师：法官大人，我们能在这里再进行一次简短的边裁席商议吗？\n13\n14 法庭：可以，请上前。\n15 （续见下页）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 （在边裁席）\n2 SCHIRICK 律师：法官大人，我刚才放过了两个问题，\n3 这两个问题的主题是交易所的一次会议，\n4 涉及交易所的利益相关方，包括交易所的总法律顾问。现在我们\n5 显然正在进入——我认为刚才证人被问及\n6 法律顾问说了什么。无论如何，我们显然处于\n7 属于保密特权讨论的语境中，\n8 政府方引出该证词是不恰当的。\n9\n10 法庭：稍等。我只想听一下刚才的问题。\n11\n12 （法庭宣读记录）\n13 法庭：那么，您预计可能会引出什么让您提出反对的内容？\n14\n15 SCHIRICK 律师：我认为引出关于此次对话的任何证词，\n16 都是根据证人自己的话，在提出一个法律问题、一项法律疑虑。我\n17 预计接下来的一个、两个或五个问题将会\n18 进一步深入探讨这一点。事实上——好吧，我就说到这里。\n19\n20 法庭：我想 Horton（霍顿）先生会告诉我们\n21 适用哪项例外。请讲。\n22 HORTON 先生：此处适用的是犯罪欺诈例外。\n23 首先，如果存在可主张的特权，喜马拉雅交易所，\n24 出席这次会议的律师们无法主张该特权。他们并不代表\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 喜马拉雅交易所。我不认为他们是在主张\n2 普里亚·帕特尔代表郭文贵。他们可以随意主张，\n3 这将与本案相关。虽有可主张的特权，但不是他们的特权。十分明确的是，\n4 普里亚·帕特尔是共谋者。如果她代表 RICO（《反诈骗与腐败组织法》）共谋的工具行事，\n5 那就不享有特权。当她对布朗先生说谎时，该内容不享有特权。\n6\n7 SCHIRICK 律师：法官大人，我可以回应一下吗？\n8 再次，我们看到代理人和共谋者例外在这里架空了规则。政府方似乎只需要说某人是众多实体之一的代理人，\n9 或者直接声称某人是共谋者，\n10 而无需对这两者进行任何证明。然后，\n11 不仅证词被采纳为实体证据，\n12 保密对话也被引入。现在我们很乐意休庭，看看能否联系到交易所的人，\n13 询问他们是否愿意主张特权。政府方并没有——我们事先没有收到任何此类通知，对吧。你们事先并没有告诉我们你们会审查这部分内容。\n14 我们没有提前应对的机会。\n15 我们是在实时处理这个问题。我们总不能说交易所没人到场来主张特权。这是最根本的抗辩理由。\n16\n17\n18 HORTON 先生：法官大人，关于这点就简短提两点。\n19 帕特尔女士在布朗先生的 3500（《詹克斯法案》证据披露材料）中随处可见，因为这\n20\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 对他作为交易所首席执行官而言很重要。第二点，\n2 来自 Bitgo（比特哥公司）的 Sam Roberts（萨姆·罗伯茨）提供了详尽的证词，涉及他与普里亚·帕特尔的沟通交流，\n3 其中她不仅是喜马拉雅交易所的发言人，\n4 还广泛谈及郭文贵及其与交易所的关系。\n5\n6 SCHIRICK 律师：我不清楚这与本案有何关系。那些是与第三方的对话。我们现在讨论的是享有特权的对话。\n7\n8 法庭：所以政府方指控她是共谋的一部分？\n9\n10 SCHIRICK 律师：我明白这一点，法官大人。我们理解法庭的审前裁定要求在证词被采纳之前必须有相应的证据证明这一点。\n11 这只解决了一个问题。我们仍然停留在特权问题上。\n12\n13 法庭：我认为已经奠定了适用该规则的基础。\n14\n15 SCHIRICK 律师：在共谋罪名中？\n16 法庭：是的。\n17 SCHIRICK 律师：我不确定我是否知晓那项证据是什么，但我认为犯罪欺诈是否适用是一个独立的问题。\n18 显然我认为，至少我的理解是，\n19 这需要法庭作出认定，即律师的咨询意见被用于实施犯罪，\n20 被用于协助犯罪。而仅仅是在圆桌会议上就 SEC 和解协议进展所进行的讨论，\n21\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 远不能证明律师的意见被用于实施犯罪。\n2\n3 HORTON 先生：法官大人无需走到那一步。\n4 问题可以仅围绕布朗先生在这次会议上提出 GTV 和解协议问题时发生了什么。发生的事情并不是帕特尔女士提供了法律咨询。她并没有提供法律咨询。一方面，她所说的话，他认为是谎话。\n5 另一方面，她的回答在任何情况下都不属于法律咨询。\n6\n7\n8 SHROFF 律师：他字面上确实说了他提出了法律疑虑，而且他是向会议上的一位律师以其作为律师的身份提出的。她当时在场绝非以任何其他身份。\n9\n10\n11\n12 HORTON 先生：我预计布朗先生将作证称，在他提出这个问题后，普里亚·帕特尔看向余建明并说道，这是我第一次听说这件事。\n13 而且他会说，即便根据他的理解，他也觉得这并不可信。\n14\n15 SCHIRICK 律师：这并不意味着它不是真的。\n16 HORTON 先生：“这是我第一次听说”，这算不上法律咨询。\n17\n18 法庭：考虑到所有涉及帕特尔女士的证词，\n19 我认为已经奠定了准确的事实基础，\n20 因此我准许采集该证词。我只是想根据 Guiney 案明确说明，我正在作出附条件认定，\n21 我预计检方将在控方举证阶段结束时提出动议。\n22\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 （在公开法庭；陪审团在场）\n2 法庭：反对无效。您可以继续。\n3 HORTON 先生提问：\n4 问：布朗先生，当您提出关于加密货币的 GTV 和解协议时，喜马拉雅交易所会议上有哪些利益相关方在场？\n5\n6\n7 答：当时有首席安全官、首席运营官、首席财务官、首席营销官、余建明、法务和内部审计人员。\n8\n9\n10 问：抱歉，您在边裁席商议之前提到了普里亚·帕特尔？\n11 答：是的。\n12 问：那是谁？\n13 答：她是法务主管。\n14 问：根据您的观察，她在交易所的职责是什么？她具体做什么？\n15\n16 答：她基本上最终拍板所有决策，所有的商业决策。\n17\n18 问：帕特尔女士向谁汇报工作？\n19 答：余建明。\n20 问：当您在交易所的这次会议上提出关于加密货币的 SEC 与 GTV 和解协议时，发生了什么？\n21\n22 答：当时出现了一阵尴尬的沉默。我观察到普里亚看着余建明，然后她基本上转过身对我说，那是她第一次听说这件事。\n23\n24\n25 问：您此前听帕特尔女士谈论过郭文贵吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：我不记得了。\n2 问：当帕特尔女士说那是她第一次听说时，给您留下了什么印象？\n3\n4 答：在尴尬与畏缩之间，我觉得这有些不真实。\n5\n6 问：当帕特尔女士说她之前没有听说过这份 SEC 和解协议时，您为什么觉得这有些不真实？\n7\n8 SCHIRICK 律师：以关联性为由提出反对，法官大人。\n9 法庭：证人可以回答。\n10 答：我只是觉得她是一位称职的律师。她本该进行尽职调查并予以了解。\n11\n12 问：布朗先生，为什么喜马拉雅交易所的人会知晓 SEC 与 GTV 之间关于加密货币的和解协议？\n13\n14 SCHIRICK 律师：反对，假设性问题。\n15 法庭：反对成立。\n16 问：布朗先生，您当时是否预期帕特尔女士会知道您在说什么？\n17\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：您为什么预期喜马拉雅交易所的法务主管会知晓关于加密货币的 SEC 与 GTV 和解协议？\n20\n21\n22 答：因为她一直与余建明沟通，并且了解余建明与郭文贵之间关系的所有动态。\n23\n24\n25 SCHIRICK 律师：反对证人就以下内容作证……\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 Patel 女士明白。\n2 法庭：他无法替她当时的心思作证。\n3 因此，关于她所理解的那部分内容予以剔除。\n4 问：Brown 先生，你为什么预期——撤回该问题。\n5 你有没有向 William 询问过关于和解协议的\n6 任何问题？\n7 答：我没有。\n8 问：为什么没有？\n9 答：在那之后我们很快就转入了常规议程。\n10 问：Brown 先生，你之前说过 Miles Guo（郭文贵）在社交媒体上\n11 宣传了 H Coin（喜币），你本人亲眼见过这些情况吗？\n12 答：我听过那首 iTunes 歌曲。\n13 问：我要向你出示一份已作为证据 GXC-405 入卷的文件。\n14 Loftus 女士，请展示该文件。如果可以的话，\n15 请滚到顶部。\n16 Brown 先生，这是什么？\n17 答：看起来像是 G News 的一篇文章。\n18 问：G News 是什么？\n19 答：我认为它是 Guo Media（郭媒体）旗下的实体之一。\n20 问：Loftus 女士，请向下滚动。\n21 Brown 先生，据你理解这份文件显示了什么？\n22 答：有一场直播，这里报道的是 9月29日\n23 的要点摘录。\n24 问：Loftus 女士，请向下滚动到页面大约过半一点的位置。\n25 那里有一段标题，“怎样才能最有效地保护\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 中国人的资金安全”。当你找到那里时，\n2 能否放大该段落。\n3 Brown 先生，你看到这个段落了吗，标题是\n4 “怎样才能最有效地保护中国人的资金安全\n5 且不贬值？”\n6 答：我看到了。\n7 问：Loftus 女士，在这一段的中间有一句话，\n8 开头是“最安全的虚拟货币”。如果你能\n9 把那句话高亮显示一下，谢谢。\n10 Brown 先生，你能读一下这段陈述吗？\n11 答：可以。“目前最安全的虚拟货币是 Himalaya\n12 Coin（喜币），因为其价值的 20% 是以黄金为依托的。”\n13 问：Loftus 女士，你能移到顶部并展示这次采访的日期吗。\n14 在 2021年9月29日，\n15 你是 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）的首席执行官（CEO）吗？\n16 答：我是。\n17 问：Brown 先生，H Coin 价值的 20% 是以黄金为依托的，这是真的吗？\n18 答：不，不是真的。\n19 问：H Coin 的价值中有多少是以黄金为依托的？\n20 答：据我所知，一点都没有。\n21 问：Himalaya Dollar（喜美元）储备中有多少是黄金？\n22 答：零。\n23 问：作为交易所的 CEO，你对 Miles Guo\n24 所说的言论有任何决定权或影响力吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：我没有。\n2 问：你有没有告诉过 Miles Guo 不要发表类似这样的\n3 言论？\n4 答：我没有。\n5 问：为什么没有？\n6 答：我从未与 Miles Guo 交谈过。\n7 问：作为喜马拉雅交易所的 CEO，Brown 先生，\n8 有人指示你签署文件吗？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：谁指示你签署文件的？\n11 答：当时的首席财务官以及合规官经常\n12 要求我签署文件。\n13 问：交易所的这些高管会让你签署什么类型的\n14 文件？\n15 答：大部分是银行开户申请，因为当时对于加密货币公司来说，\n16 获得银行服务非常困难；另外我还会签署有关审计\n17 以及其他代表交易所的事务文件。\n18 问：据你的理解，为什么会要求你\n19 签署那些发给银行和审计师的文件？\n20 答：你能重复一下吗。\n21 问：Brown 先生，据你的理解，为什么会\n22 指示你签署发给银行和审计师的文件？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：因为我是 CEO。\n2 问：当被要求签署这些文件时，你阅读它们了吗？\n3 答：阅读了。\n4 问：你阅读得有多仔细？\n5 答：没那么仔细。\n6 问：那是为什么？\n7 答：我是快速浏览型的阅读者。\n8 问：在签署之前，你是否有过要求对文件进行修改的情况？\n9 答：我不记得曾提出过这种要求。\n10 问：那是为什么？\n11 答：我认为那些只是典型的 CEO 需要签署并推进的事项。\n12 问：Loftus 女士，请调出已作为证据入卷的\n13 GXBR-208-A。这是第一页。Loftus 女士，能展示第二页吗。\n14 请将 Jesse Brown 的 CEO 签名行上方的文字\n15 一直放大到页面顶部，谢谢。\n16 Brown 先生，你签署了这份文件吗？\n17 答：是的。\n18 问：上面写着“存放于喜马拉雅自有银行账户中的美元”。\n19 它报告存放在喜马拉雅\n20 自有银行账户中的金额是多少？\n21 答：那是差不多刚超过 4.01 亿美元。\n22 问：当你以 CEO 身份签署此文件时，你知道这是否属实吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：我不知道。\n2 问：当时关于交易所拥有多少资金，你了解什么？\n3 答：我对交易所拥有的任何资金都毫不知情。\n4 问：在你签署这份文件之前，你是否要求任何人核实过其真实性？\n5 答：我不记得了。\n6 问：此行下方的项目提到了喜马拉雅生态系统平台上的\n7 抵押 HDO 信用额度，以及以太坊（Ethereum）区块链上的\n8 抵押 HDO 代币。\n9 关于区块链上抵押 HDO 代币的行项目，\n10 其数字是多少？\n11 答：那是零。\n12 问：在写着“喜马拉雅生态系统平台上的抵押 HDO 信用额度”处，\n13 “喜马拉雅生态系统平台”指的是什么？\n14 答：那是指该平台上的所有实体。\n15 问：据你理解，这份提及抵押 HDO 信用额度\n16 的文件目的是什么，“抵押”在这一语境下是什么意思？\n17 答：我认为该代币将以此金额进行抵押担保。\n18 问：如果有的话，这份文件与 HDO 储备有何\n19 关联？\n20 答：正如我之前在证词中所陈述的，对于稳定币而言，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 每个代币都必须有 1 美元作为支撑，而这正是该文件所要体现的。\n2 问：如果有的话，这份文件对于使用多少黄金来为 H Dollar 提供抵押\n3 是怎么说的？\n4 答：本文件中没有提及黄金。\n5 问：Brown 先生，你在喜马拉雅交易所工作期间，\n6 你是否在某个时间得知了资金被扣押一事？\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：你得知被扣押的情况是什么？\n9 答：我们存放在波多黎各（Puerto Rico）一家银行（我认为是那里）的资金\n10 被美国政府冻结了。\n11 问：你是如何得知政府冻结了\n12 喜马拉雅交易所资金的？\n13 答：我是在一次紧急会议上听说的。\n14 问：在扣押发生后，你在交易所的那次紧急会议上\n15 听到了什么？\n16 答：我听说资金被冻结了，我们将\n17 无法提供赎回服务。\n18 问：赎回是什么意思？\n19 答：赎回是指喜马拉雅交易所的用户将他们的\n20 信用额度兑现，并获得等额的法定货币。\n21 法庭：你所说的法定货币（fiat）是什么意思？\n22 证人：美元。\n23 问：如果客户无法在喜马拉雅交易所进行\n24 赎回，这意味着什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：这意味着他们的钱被困在交易所里，\n2 他们无法将其取出并存入自己的\n3 账户。\n4 问：在你得知资金被扣押时，你当时是 CEO 吗？\n5 答：我是。\n6 问：据你的理解，当时交易所停止\n7 赎回的原因是什么？\n8 答：因为我们无法提供任何法定货币或任何美元\n9 来满足赎回需求。\n10 问：Brown 先生，在资金被扣押之后，如果有的话，\n11 对 H Dollar 储备中的资金有什么影响？\n12 答：据我所知，已经没有任何储备了。\n13 问：如果有的话，这对 H Dollar 的状态\n14 意味着什么？\n15 答：这意味着它不再有依托支撑，毫无价值。\n16 问：交易所就此向其客户告知了什么？\n17 答：当时客服部门进行了大力宣传，提及我们当时\n18 遇到了银行方面的问题，我们希望在近期\n19 予以解决，并请大家保持耐心。\n20 问：交易所是否声明过 H Dollar 不再是\n21 稳定币？\n22 答：他们没有。\n23 问：在此时它还是稳定币吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 答：不是。\n2 SCHIRICK 先生：反对。\n3 法庭：反对成立。\n4 问：Brown 先生，你当时是 CEO 吗？\n5 答：我是。\n6 问：在 H Dollar 储备资金没了之后，\n7 你的理解是 H Dollar 是否仍属于稳定币？\n8 SCHIRICK 先生：反对，对记录作了错误陈述。\n9 法庭：那是你的理解吗——我没听清\n10 最后一部分。\n11 问：问题是，作为当时的 CEO，在资金被扣押后，\n12 Brown 先生在此时的理解是 H Dollar 仍然是\n13 一种稳定币吗？\n14 法庭：我支持该反对意见。\n15 问：Brown 先生，就你所知，在此时交易所\n16 还有任何现金剩余吗？\n17 答：就我所知，我们资金极度匮乏。\n18 问：这一点向客户披露了吗？\n19 答：没有。\n20 问：作为当时交易所的 CEO，你是否对这些扣押\n21 将如何影响 H Coin 的价格抱有预期？\n22 答：是的。\n23 问：你的预期是什么？\n24 答：嗯，在 FTX 以及其他一些大型交易所发生事情之后，\n25 当时市场上存在很多恐慌情绪。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 所以会出现一次大挤兑，也就是所谓的挤兑，\n2 每个人都试图同时抛售。\n3 问：为了明确起见，关于喜马拉雅交易所的代币价格\n4 会发生什么（如果有的话），你的预期是什么？\n5 SCHIRICK 先生：反对。\n6 法庭：你害怕发生什么，是这个问题吗？\n7 HORTON 先生：是的。\n8 法庭：请回答。\n9 答：价格大跌，因为在这种时期往往会发生这种情况。\n10 问：那 H Coin 的价格实际发生了什么？\n11 答：变化极小。\n12 问：Brown 先生，你能对此作出解释吗？\n13 SCHIRICK 先生：反对，要求推测。\n14 法庭：你可以回答。\n15 答：我无法解释。\n16 问：你有没有向 William Je（余建明）询问过为什么在扣押之后\n17 H Coin 的价格没有下跌？\n18 答：我没有。\n19 问：Brown 先生，作为当时交易所的 CEO，关于交易所发放一笔\n20 3700 万美元的贷款，你了解什么（如果有的话）？\n21 答：我记得在我们的某次会议期间——\n22 在我们召开的一次会议中有讨论过这事。我们开过一些会议，围绕——我记不清\n23 具体称谓了，但那是基于——我们董事会里有五六个人，出现了一些事项，我们\n24 决定是作为团队共同去做还是不做。我记不清\n25 该团队的确切名称是什么了，但存在一个共同做决策的团队，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - Direct\n1 由 William Je 领导。\n2 问：作为当时交易所的 CEO，你知道\n3 那笔 3700 万美元的开支是用于什么吗？\n4 答：知道。\n5 问：是用于什么？\n6 答：当时说明的是用于一笔贷款。\n7 问：作为 CEO，你知道那笔贷款的用途是什么吗？\n8 SCHIRICK 先生：反对，缺乏证据基础。\n9 法庭：如果你知道的话，可以回答。\n10 答：知道，我相信是用于购买一艘游艇。\n11 问：Brown 先生，有人要求你批准此事吗？\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：关于交易所为一艘游艇发放 3700 万美元贷款的情况，\n14 你做了什么（如果有的话）来进行调查核实？\n15 答：对此进行了讨论。在内部进行了讨论。有人提出了一些\n16 反对意见，但最终表决通过推进并\n17 发放该笔贷款。\n18 问：在那时，据你当时的理解（如果有的话），\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 首席执行官，关于为什么 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）要为一艘\n2 游艇贷款 3700 万美元？\n3 答：在我看来这像是一笔个人贷款。\n4 问：你是否采取过任何措施阻止其通过？\n5 答：Marios 和我都提出了反对并进行了沟通，但随后\n6 勉强同意了。\n7 问：Marios 是谁？\n8 答：Marios 当时是首席运营官。\n9 问：你说这看起来像是一笔个人贷款，是给谁的\n10 个人贷款？\n11 SCHIRICK 律师：反对“看起来像”。这属于\n12 推测。\n13 法庭：反对成立。\n14 问：为什么在你看来这是一笔个人贷款？\n15 SCHIRICK 律师：同上反对理由。\n16 法庭：反对成立。\n17 问：为什么你当时理解这是一笔个人贷款？\n18 SCHIRICK 律师：同上反对理由。\n19 法庭：反对成立。\n20 问：换下一个问题。在那之前的两年半时间里，\n21 交易所是否曾为游艇发放过贷款？\n22 答：没有。\n23 问：如果你知情的话，这笔贷款是给谁的？\n24 SCHIRICK 律师：反对。\n25 法庭：你可以回答这个问题，是的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 答：William（威廉）陈述说是给 Miles Guo（郭文贵）的女儿的。\n2 问：关于喜马拉雅交易所为什么要给郭文贵的女儿提供贷款，\n3 你有何理解（如果有的话）？\n4 SCHIRICK 律师：反对，关联性。\n5 法庭：你可以回答。\n6 答：我并不真正理解原因。\n7 问：在你和首席运营官提出反对之后，这笔给郭文贵\n8 女儿的 3700 万美元贷款后来怎么样了？\n9 答：最终通过了。\n10 问：Brown 先生，后来是否出现了你的头衔再次\n11 从首席执行官变更为其他职务的情况？\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：变更为什么了？\n14 答：我被晋升为总裁。\n15 问：当你成为交易所总裁时，你的工作发生了什么变化\n16 （如果有变化的话）？\n17 答：其实完全没有变化。\n18 问：你是如何得知自己要成为交易所\n19 总裁的？\n20 答：我相信是在另一次会议上，一次集体会议。\n21 问：是谁告诉你不再担任首席执行官的？\n22 答：嗯，我收到过几条同事发来的消息，他们最初问\n23 我是否被解雇了。\n24 问：在收到那些询问你是否被解雇的消息之前，\n25 关于你在交易所的职务头衔，你知道些什么\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO2 Brown - 直接询问\n1 （如果有的话）？\n2 答：我不知道已经变更了。\n3 问：如果有人的话，是谁接替你担任了首席执行官？\n4 答：有一位先生。他叫 Kevin（凯文），他接替了\n5 我。\n6 问：据你所知，是谁选定凯文接替\n7 你担任喜马拉雅交易所首席执行官的？\n8 SCHIRICK 律师：反对。\n9 法庭：你可以回答。\n10 答：众所周知他是被安插在那里的。是郭文贵\n11 把他安插在那里的。\n12 问：你是如何得知是郭文贵把凯文安插到\n13 交易所的？\n14 答：凯文告诉我的。\n15 HORTON 律师：法官阁下，请容我稍候片刻。\n16\n17 问：回到你接受 Yvette Wang（王雁平）面试的事情片刻，\n18 王女士当时是否问过你对中国\n19 共产党的看法？\n20 答：没有问过。\n21 问：你对中国共产党有看法吗？\n22 答：没有。\n23 SCHIRICK 律师：反对。\n24 法庭：反对成立。\n25 问：你在喜马拉雅交易所的两年半时间里，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO3 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 Brown 先生，你是否认为它是一个政治\n2 组织？\n3 答：我不这么认为。\n4 HORTON 律师：没有其他问题了，法官阁下。\n5 法庭：交叉询问。\n6 SCHIRICK 律师：谢谢，法官阁下。\n7 交叉询问\n8 由 SCHIRICK 律师进行：\n9 问：下午好，Brown 先生。\n10 答：下午好。\n11 问：如果你同意的话，我想把话题带回到最开始，\n12 谈谈你是如何开始涉足加密货币领域的。\n13 你是在 2016 年或大约那个时候首次开始在区块链和加密货币\n14 行业工作的，对吗？\n15 答：是的，2016 年底。\n16 问：你是否在某种程度上认为自己是自学成才？\n17 答：这个说法很恰当。\n18 问：我们稍后会谈到你在喜马拉雅交易所的工作。\n19 在喜马拉雅交易所之前，你在该行业担任过许多其他职位，\n20 对吗？\n21 答：是的。\n22 问：那我们简要梳理一下。第一个是在\n23 Ford（福特）；对吗？\n24 答：是的，我是——\n25 问：我接着问。谢谢。就是那家汽车公司，对吧？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO3 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：你在那里做了四到五个月的顾问？\n3 答：稍微短一点。\n4 问：现在能否请你解释一下你在那里做的是什么？\n5 答：我是福特的第一位区块链顾问。\n6 问：你的下一个职务是从事电子\n7 健康档案相关的工作，但与加密货币有关；对吗？\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：其理念是你将拥有自己的健康\n10 档案，但能够通过区块链安全地发送它们？\n11 答：没错。\n12 问：那是在 2017 年？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：你在那里待了不到一年左右？\n15 答：是的。\n16 问：为什么你在那里只待了一年左右？\n17 答：我被解雇了。\n18 问：然后你的下一个项目是一个名为\n19 Data Blockchain（数据区块链）的企业，对吗？\n20 答：是的。\n21 问：你在那里工作了几年？\n22 答：是的。\n23 问：Data Blockchain 是做什么的？\n24 答：它让小公司更容易购买数据记录，\n25 以针对特定行业的人群进行营销。这样夫妻店\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO3 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 就能拥有与那些购买，你知道，\n2 10 万美元数据的人相同的优势。\n3 问：它类似于广告相关的业务？\n4 答：对，这样说很恰当。\n5 问：然后到了你离开那里的时候，对吗？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：那是为什么？\n8 答：工作到期结束了。他们不再想继续\n9 发行代币了。\n10 问：然后在某个时候你也——撤回。\n11 在 Data Blockchain 的工作之后，在某个时候你\n12 开始与（如果我没记错的话）Nevis（尼维斯）政府就\n13 一个潜在的加密项目进行商谈；对吗？\n14 答：没错。\n15 问：尼维斯是加勒比海的一个岛屿？\n16 答：没错。\n17 问：你为什么不跟我们讲讲这件事呢？\n18 答：我打算募集一种代币，使该国能够\n19 启动地热发电厂并在那里建设数据中心。\n20 问：那件事后来怎么样了？\n21 答：跟政府那边有点后劲不足了。虽然有过\n22 一些反复沟通，但从未获得融资。\n23 问：那持续了多久？\n24 答：来来回回持续了几年，但这\n25 只是，你知道，这类事情必须\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO3 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 经过政府的多层审批。\n2 问：就是没有取得实质进展？\n3 答：对。\n4 问：你的下一个职位是在 DTCC（美国存托信托与清算公司），对吧？\n5 答：对，没错。\n6 问：DTCC 是一家清算所；对吗？\n7 答：没错。\n8 问：它是处理（除其他业务外）股票\n9 交易、股权交易的清算所，对吧？\n10 答：是的。\n11 （下页继续）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 由 SCHIRICK 律师进行：\n2 问：好的。我说的对吗，DTCC 算得上是，嗯，大概是\n3 最大的清算机构，至少在美国是这样？\n4 答：是的，在全世界也是。他们每天清算结算\n5 超过一万亿美元的股票交易。\n6 问：这是一项极其庞大的业务。\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：你在那里待了大约四个月，对吧？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：那你为什么离开那份工作？\n11 答：那是一个顾问职位，合同结束了。\n12 问：好的。现在关于我们刚才梳理的这些职务，你\n13 在这些职位上并不是编码员或程序员，对吧？\n14 答：不是。\n15 问：不是。你也不是软件工程师，对吧？\n16 答：不是。\n17 问：因为你没有受过计算机科学的正规训练，\n18 对吧？\n19 答：不。我在大学学过计算机科学。\n20 问：你毕业获得了计算机科学学位吗？\n21 答：没有。\n22 问：好的。甚至在今天，你其实也不在加密\n23 项目上进行编码，对吧？你的角色有些不同。\n24 答：我——我有——我不用 Solidity 编写代码，但我——我可以做架构设计，\n25 我能阅读它，我能理解它。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：当然。\n2 答：但对的，我并不——我并不编写生产环境代码。\n3 问：好的。所以代码并不是你真正擅长的事，对吧？不是你的\n4 强项。\n5 答：不是，不是我的强项。\n6 问：正如你之前所说，你更多是一个设计者或者可以说是\n7 加密项目的架构师——\n8 答：架构师，对的。\n9 问：——加密项目。好的。这很合理。\n10 那么我们来谈谈——我的意思是，对于我们中一些不像你那样\n11 精通加密货币和区块链的人来说，如果可以的话，\n12 花点时间谈谈这其中的一些专业行话——\n13 答：好的。\n14 问：——加密货币和区块链，好吗？\n15 答：好的。\n16 问：那么首先，什么是区块链？\n17 答：它是一个公共账本。它被称为分布式账本\n18 技术。\n19 问：好的。它允许你记录该链上\n20 发生的交易，对吧？\n21 答：是的。\n22 问：好的。而在公共区块链上，这些交易是\n23 可见的。\n24 答：没错。\n25 问：好的。但也有一些交易可以发生在\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 公共区块链上但属于链下的，对吧？\n2 答：据我所知不是。\n3 问：那么澄清一下，加密货币交易是否可能\n4 发生在——\n5 HORTON 律师：反对。要求推测。他\n6 问的是是否可能。\n7 SCHIRICK 律师：法官阁下，我们在直接询问中\n8 对此进行过广泛的作证。\n9 法庭：你可以回答。\n10 问：那么这是真的，不是吗，你可以有发生在\n11 区块链之外的加密货币交易，对吧？\n12 答：不，那是不正确的。\n13 问：好的。现在如果你有——好吧，我们换种方式说：是否存在\n14 私有区块链这种东西？\n15 答：存在。\n16 问：好的。你对此作过证，对吧？\n17 答：是的。\n18 问：例如，你曾参与过医疗保健行业的\n19 区块链项目？\n20 答：是的。\n21 问：那是属于私有区块链的一个例子吗？\n22\n23 答：是的。\n24 问：好的。所以它不对公众开放；任何人都看不到；\n25 你必须被邀请作为参与者进入该区块链\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 才能看到正在发生的事情。\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：好的。你熟悉 JPM Coin（摩根大通币）吗？\n4 答：你指的是 JPMorgan（摩根大通）吗？\n5 问：是的。\n6 答：熟悉。\n7 问：那是私有区块链，或在私有区块链上交易的\n8 代币的另一个例子吗？\n9 答：我认为是的。\n10 问：好的。现在这些私有区块链，即使并不是每个人\n11 都能从外部看到它们，交易仍然发生在链上，对吧？\n12 答：没错。这涉及隐私保护。\n13 问：好的。那些交易的代币仍然是\n14 加密货币，对吧？\n15 答：没错。\n16 问：现在如果我说中心化加密货币交易所，\n17 你明白我的意思吗？\n18 答：明白。\n19 问：好的。那是什么？请解释一下。\n20 答：中心化加密货币交易所是指由交易所\n21 保管用户密钥的地方，而密钥对应的是钱包，所以本质上\n22 是他们为用户保管加密货币。\n23 问：好的。所以所有交易所的——撤回。\n24 所有客户的加密货币都存放在交易所的\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 钱包，对吗？\n2 答：是的，没错。\n3 问：好的。那么，中心化交易所进行链下交易是常见现象吗？\n4\n5 答：不常见。\n6 问：那么我们来谈谈——你熟悉 Coinbase 吗？\n7 答：熟悉。\n8 问：好的。那么据你理解，当 Coinbase 促成两名客户之间的交易时，所有这些交易都会记录在区块链上吗？\n9\n10\n11 答：是的，会记录。\n12 问：所有的交易都记录在区块链上？\n13 答：是的。\n14 HORTON 先生：反对。重复发问且已作答。\n15 问：所以据你的理解，中心化交易所并不使用内部撮合机制来匹配订单，对吗？\n16\n17 HORTON 先生：反对。重复发问且已作答。\n18 SCHIRICK 先生：这是不同的问题。\n19 法庭：反对成立。\n20 问：好的。那么，是否存在交易所和用户希望交易在链下进行的理由？\n21\n22 HORTON 先生：反对。要求证人进行推测。法官\n23 阁下——\n24 法庭：你可以回答。\n25 答：律师，你能重复一遍吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 问：当然。用户希望加密货币交易在链下进行，是否存在某些理由？\n2\n3 答：我——我想不出有什么理由。\n4 问：好的。也许我可以向你提出几点，你可以告诉我它们是否有道理。\n5\n6 通常情况下，链下交易的结算是否比链上交易更快？\n7\n8 答：取决于当时的网络拥堵情况。\n9 问：确实。但以以太坊（Ethereum）为例。以太坊有时会出现滑点，对吧？那只是一个——\n10\n11 答：嗯，最近的升级已经消除了大部分此类问题。\n12 问：让我先——\n13 HORTON 先生：反对。他必须让证人回答完问题。\n14\n15 SCHIRICK 先生：我的问题还没问完。\n16 法庭：你必须等他回答完再提下一个问题。\n17\n18 SCHIRICK 先生：我认为是证人在我结束提问前就开始说话了；仅此而已。不过没关系。我们可以继续。\n19\n20\n21 Brown 先生，我们只要互相等对方说完就行了。\n22\n23 证人：抱歉，律师。\n24 SCHIRICK 先生：没关系。我也道歉。\n25 由 SCHIRICK 先生继续发问：\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 问：所以我刚才的问题是：链下交易可能更受欢迎的一个原因，是不是因为它们结算得更快？\n2\n3\n4 答：我想你可以这么说。\n5 法庭：我不希望你靠猜。如果你知道，你可以回答是或不是，或者你可以说“我不知道”或“我不记得了”，类似这样的话。\n6\n7\n8 证人：好的。\n9 问：存在这种可能性，对吧？\n10 法庭：不，我不是在让他推测。不要推测。\n11\n12 答：请问你能再重复一遍问题吗？\n13 问：当然。交易参与者可能希望在链下结算、希望在加密货币中进行链下交易的一个原因，是不是因为结算速度更快？\n14\n15\n16 HORTON 先生：反对提问形式，法官阁下。\n17\n18 法庭：允许提问。\n19 答：我不同意这种说法。即使——即使是针对你所指的——\n20\n21 问：好的。\n22 答：好的。我不同意。我不同意。\n23 问：你熟悉一种被称为 gas 费的东西吗？\n24 答：熟悉。\n25 问：好的。gas 费是使用公有区块链所必须支付的费用吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1\n2 答：不是。Gas 是以太坊公有区块链的费用。\n3 问：好的。没问题。那么，人们可能希望进行链下交易的一个原因，是不是因为不需要支付 gas 费因而结算成本更低？\n4\n5\n6 HORTON 先生：反对。要求证人进行推测。\n7 SCHIRICK 先生：这是他的理解，法官阁下。\n8 法庭：允许提问。\n9 答：确实如此。\n10 问：好的。事实上，当今大量的加密货币交易发生在中心化交易所上，对吧？\n11\n12 答：对。\n13 问：好的。从外部来看，据你的理解，中心化交易所拥有多个存放客户加密货币的钱包，对吗？\n14\n15\n16 答：是的。\n17 问：而且它们并不一定会为每位客户设立一个单独的钱包，对吧？\n18\n19 答：是的。\n20 问：对。客户可能拥有他或她的——我看出你在犹豫，那我们一步步来。所以客户可能有他或她自己的钱包，对吧？\n21\n22\n23 答：是的。\n24 问：但是交易所本身有自己的钱包，对于它托管的代币，即交易所托管的代币，它们存放在那些钱包里，对吧？\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1\n2 HORTON 先生：反对代证人作证，法官阁下。\n3 法庭：允许提问。\n4 答：正确。\n5 问：好的。因此，比如在 Coinbase 上的两名用户之间进行交易时，用户想要交换的那些代币可能存放在同一个交易所钱包中，对不对？\n6\n7\n8\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：好的。在这种情况下，如果这两名客户进行交易，你在外部是无法看到该交易发生的，对吧？\n11\n12\n13 答：那不是事实。\n14 问：你的证词是你可以看到交易所钱包的内部？\n15\n16 法庭：反对成立。重复发问且已作答。\n17 SCHIRICK 先生：好的，法官阁下。\n18 问：你能告诉我怎么看到 Coinbase 钱包的内部吗？\n19 答：在以太坊区块链上进行的任何交易，无论是你指的 Coinbase 还是任何二层网络，仍然会广播到公有区块链上。\n20\n21\n22 问：现在请记住，我只是想确保我们沟通明确。我之前问你的问题是，如果两名用户的代币存放在同一个钱包、同一个交易所钱包中，他们想要进行交易。我指的是这种情况。这听得明白吗？\n23\n24\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1\n2 答：你能再重复一遍吗？\n3 问：好的，先生。假设你在一个交易所、一个中心化交易所有两名用户，交易所的钱包同时存放着这两名用户的代币，而这两名用户进行了一笔交易——你目前跟得上吗？这听得明白吗？\n4\n5\n6\n7 答：明白。\n8 问：好的。当那笔交易发生时，你是看不到那个钱包内部情况的，对吧？你无法看到交易所钱包的内部。\n9\n10\n11 HORTON 先生：反对。重复发问且已作答。\n12 SCHIRICK 先生：他让我澄清一下，法官阁下。我只是在试图澄清。\n13\n14 法庭：你可以回答。\n15 答：听起来确实是这样。\n16 问：对。所以如果交易发生在中心化交易所上，确实有时你无法看到这些交易，因为它们发生在钱包内部，而不是跨区块链进行的。\n17\n18\n19\n20 答：说得有道理。\n21 问：好的。行。谢谢你。\n22 现在让我们回到你在这里的工作经历上谈谈 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）。\n23\n24 我相信你在直接询问中作证说你是在 2020 年 6 月开始工作的；是这样吗？\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：好的。众所周知，这正是在疫情期间。对吧？\n3\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：当时你在家里，和我们其他人一样被困在家里？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：好的。那么在那个时候，加密货币和区块链行业相当火爆，可以这么说吗？很受欢迎？\n8\n9 答：是的，可以这么说。\n10 问：受到了相当多的媒体和新闻关注，可以这么说吗？\n11 答：是的，在那个时候。\n12 问：是的。好的。那么也可以说你当时觉得自己有很多潜在的工作机会，对吗？\n13\n14 答：是的，说得没错。\n15 问：对。我的意思是，你是否记得在与政府方会面时告诉过他们，在这个时间点前后你的电话都被打爆了？\n16\n17\n18 答：我的电话经常被打爆。\n19 问：在这个时间点上。我毫不怀疑。\n20 答：一直都是。\n21 问：但在那个时间点上。在那个时间点上，我只是想明确一下。\n22\n23 答：是的。\n24 问：好的。然后，正如你在直接询问中作证的那样，你与一个名叫 Yvette Wang（王雁平）的人进行了第一次面试，对吧？\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：好的。可以这么说，这算是与 Wang 女士的一次初步面试？\n3\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：你是否感觉到 Wang 女士对区块链或加密货币有任何了解？\n6\n7 HORTON 先生：反对。\n8 SCHIRICK 先生：询问他的印象。\n9 法庭：你可以回答那个问题，是的。\n10 答：我的印象是她对区块链或加密货币了解不多。\n11\n12 问：好的。这只是一次常规面试，对吧？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：而且时间相对较短？\n15 答：大概半小时。还有另一位男士也参与了那次面试。\n16\n17 问：明白。你与 Wang 女士和另一位男士是通了一次电话，还是两次？\n18\n19 答：他们都在同一个通话中。\n20 问：是一次单独的通话。\n21 答：是的。\n22 问：好的。谢谢。谢谢说明。\n23 参与那次通话的人是 GTV 的首席技术官吗？\n24\n25 答：是的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 问：好的。那个人有问你一些关于区块链的问题吗？\n2\n3 答：他问了。\n4 问：好的。在那次通话之后，我相信你在直接询问中作证说，你与 Je 先生（余建明）进行了面试，对吧？\n5\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：好的。与 Je 先生一共进行了两次面试，对吧？\n8\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：好的。\n11 答：是的，我相信是。\n12 问：对。第一次面试发生在与 Wang 女士第一次面试后不久，对吧？\n13\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：好的。我相信你作证说过，你是通过视频通话进行这些面试的。\n16\n17 答：是的。\n18 问：好的。据你理解，该工作的范围是你当时面试的是区块链架构师职位？\n19\n20 答：是的。\n21 问：该职位并不是首席执行官职位。\n22 答：不是。\n23 问：对。好的。现在你能给我们简要谈谈在那次第一次通话中你与 Je 先生讨论了什么吗？\n24\n25 答：我回顾了我的工作经历，并深入探讨了其中关于\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 DTT——DTCC（美国存管信托与清算公司）的部分。\n2 问：好的。他是否对你在 DTCC 的工作表现出特别的兴趣？\n3\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：好的。你与他深入探讨了区块链和金融？\n6\n7 答：是的。我面试表现非常出色。\n8 问：正如历史所证明的。\n9 你当时的印象是 William Je（余建明）在金融领域有丰富的经验，对吧？\n10\n11 答：极其丰富。\n12 问：对。你觉得他令人印象深刻，我想你曾这么说过，对吧？\n13\n14 答：非常令人印象深刻。\n15 问：而且知识渊博，对吧？\n16 答：非常博学。\n17 问：好的。在第一次面试期间，你并没有和 William Je 谈到 GTV，对吗？\n18\n19 答：没有。\n20 问：对。没有提到这个，对吧？\n21 答：我不记得有提到过。\n22 问：是的。你们当时在谈论设立交易所的想法。\n23 答：我在推介区块链方案。\n24 问：明白。一条加密公链？\n25 答：是的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 问：以及那些代币，对吧？\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：好的。你们谈到的其中一种代币，我认为就是我们今天在这里所称的稳定币，对吧？\n4\n5\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：好的。那基本上有点类似于加密美元；这是否是一个恰当的——\n8\n9 答：这是一个很好的比喻。\n10 问：——比喻？好的。最初的设想是让该加密美元由现金支持，对吧？\n11\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：好的。最终——我们稍后会谈到这一点，但——最终它变成了 HDO（喜币美元），对吧？\n14\n15 答：是的。\n16 问：好的。然后你和他讨论的第二种代币，就是人们所称的交易币。\n17\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：好的。那就是最终成为 HCN（喜币）的代币，对吧？\n20 答：正确。\n21 问：好的。在这些面试期间，你是否也与 Je 先生讨论了交易所的长远愿景？\n22\n23 答：我没有。\n24 问：是的。那么据你理解，他的长远愿景是什么？\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 答：他的设想是成为世界上最大的交易所。\n2 问：好的。据您的理解，他当时是否也试图\n3 建立一个所谓的生态系统？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：好的。并且招募愿意接受这些\n6 代币作为购买各类商品和服务付款方式的商家，对吗？\n7 答：没错。\n8 问：好的。在当时，您是否觉得这是一个相当宏大的愿景？\n9\n10 答：是的，我觉得很酷。\n11 问：好的。现在可以这么说吗：与Je先生（余建明）的这两次面试，\n12 比起最初与Wang女士（王雁平）的\n13 面试要实质性得多？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：好的。您觉得与Je先生的面试\n16 才是真正算数的那种，对吗？\n17 答：我觉得都算数。\n18 问：好的。您是否觉得自己必须给Je先生留下深刻印象？\n19 答：是的，当你想获得一份工作时，你必须给任何人留下好印象。\n20\n21 问：您之前说过自己表现得非常出色，对吧？\n22 答：完美搞定。\n23 问：是的，完美搞定。完美搞定。所以您觉得自己当时一心想\n24 给他留下好印象；可以这么说吗？\n25 答：只是——\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法院速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 HORTON先生：已经问过并回答过了。\n2 答：只是做我该做的事。\n3 问：我们明白了。我们明白了。\n4 那么，您当时的印象是Je先生是决定\n5 录用谁的决策者吗？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：好的。那您是否知道他当时是否在面试其他任何\n8 候选人？\n9 HORTON先生：反对。\n10 SCHIRICK先生：仅就他所知。\n11 法庭：证人可以回答。\n12 答：就我所知，没有。\n13 SCHIRICK先生：好的。那么我们能不能简短地\n14 调出已作为证据出示的政府方证据第 3419 号。\n15 问：您看到这份文件了吗，Brown先生？\n16 答：看到了，律师。\n17 问：在直接询问时有人向您出示过这份文件，对吧？\n18 答：您能重复一遍吗？\n19 问：在您的直接作证中曾向您出示过这份文件——\n20 答：是的，是的。\n21 问：——对吧？好的。这是来自GTV的录用函，\n22 对吧？\n23 答：对。\n24 问：好的。在您接受这份工作之前，您查过\n25 Guo先生（郭文贵）吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 答：我认为我没有。\n2 问：好的。所以当时您完全不知道Guo Media（郭媒体）是什么，\n3 对吧？\n4 答：嗯，我可以收回那句话吗？我确实做了一点点\n5 调研，是的，典型的快速浏览。\n6 问：好的。并且您认为这些公司——GTV与\n7 Guo先生有关联，对吧？\n8 答：对。\n9 问：好的。现在我认为您曾作证说，您将自己的工作视为\n10 同一份工作的一部分——撤回。\n11 ——您将自己在Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）的工作视为\n12 与GTV工作属于同一份工作的一部分，对吧？\n13 答：嗯，我是被GTV雇用的。\n14 问：对。您后来还跟Yvette Wang（王雁平）说过话吗？\n15 答：还有过一次。\n16 问：那是为了什么目的？\n17 答：她打电话来催促我们的开发进度。他们\n18 变得非常沮丧，因为我们没有按时交付，正如我\n19 之前在证词中所陈述的那样。\n20 问：好的。所以那次通话与GTV无关，对吧？\n21 HORTON先生：反对。\n22 法庭：反对成立。\n23 问：好的。什么是Guo Media？抱歉，让我收回\n24 刚才的话。\n25 在那个时间节点，在 2020 年 6 月，据您的\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 理解，Guo Media是什么？\n2 答：就是一个大型的——社交媒体公司和\n3 出版物集团，很大程度上是受政治驱动的。\n4 问：您在 2020 年 6 月就是这样理解的？\n5 答：是的，我想是的。\n6 问：那么据您在 2020 年 6 月的理解，Guo Media与GTV又有什么\n7 区别呢？\n8 答：我不知道。这个我不知道。\n9 问：您不知道。\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：您能说出Guo Media的一名员工的名字吗？\n12 答：面试我的第一个人，是的。\n13 问：除了——您确定她受雇于Guo Media吗？\n14 答：或者是那个——技术——技术主管，是的。\n15 问：好的。那么除了与您交谈过的两个人之外，您还能\n16 说出Guo Media的另一名员工的名字吗？\n17 答：我说不出。\n18 问：您能说出GTV的另一名员工的名字吗？\n19 答：我说不出名字，但我——我后来跟他们参加过\n20 几次视频通话。\n21 问：好的。所以明确地说，您为喜马拉雅交易所\n22 提供的服务，与Guo News（郭新闻）和\n23 Guo Media是不同的、分开的，对吗？\n24 HORTON先生：反对。这是复合提问。\n25 SCHIRICK先生：我拆开逐一发问。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 法庭：好的。\n2 问：那么明确地说，您为喜马拉雅交易所的工作\n3 是与GTV分开的，对吗？\n4 答：我不会这么说。刚开始的时候，我是受雇于\n5 GTV的。我跟他们的——跟他们的公关人员——我的意思是，他们的\n6 人力资源人员谈过。\n7 问：——先生\n8 答：谈过蛮多次的。\n9 问：我只想请您听清我的问题，好吗？\n10 答：好的。\n11 问：除了与您认为在GTV工作的人面试之外，好的，\n12 您是否曾与GTV的其他人一起工作过？\n13 HORTON先生：已经问过并回答过了。\n14 法庭：证人可以回答。\n15 答：有的。我和人力资源共事过。\n16 问：关于您的——\n17 答：和GTV的人力资源。\n18 问：请让我说完。现在这个环节我们必须让\n19 对方把话说完，好吗？\n20 答：抱歉，律师。\n21 问：所以您是与人力资源协作以完成由GTV向您支付\n22 薪资的设置？\n23 答：没错。\n24 问：好的。除此之外，您究竟有没有为GTV工作过？\n25 答：没有。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 问：好的。对Guo Media也是同样的问题。除了最初的\n2 行政设置事务之外，您为Guo Media做过任何工作吗？\n3 答：我没有。\n4 问：好的。现在我们回到这个问题。您在喜马拉雅\n5 交易所的工作是与GTV分开的，对吧？\n6 答：没错。\n7 问：而且它与Guo Media（不管那是什么）也是分开的，\n8 对吧？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：好的。现在我认为您在直接询问中作证说，您\n11 从未见过您的——我应该说从未当面见过——您在\n12 喜马拉雅的同事；是这样吗？\n13 答：对。\n14 问：好的。那么当时喜马拉雅是一家初创公司，\n15 这难道不是事实吗？\n16 答：那是事实。\n17 问：好的。而且它在那个时间节点——同样，\n18 我们只聚焦于，你知道，2020 年 6 月——它的员工\n19 遍布世界各地，对吧？\n20 答：嗯，在 2020 年 6 月，我们只有三个人，但是\n21 是的，他们都分散在世界各地。\n22 问：分散在世界各地，对吧？而且正如我们之前谈到的，\n23 这是在新冠疫情期间，对吧？\n24 答：那是事实。\n25 问：好的。那些分散在世界各地的人，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 为了说明地理分布，有些在英国，对吧？\n2 答：对。\n3 问：有些在澳大利亚？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：可以这么说吗？\n6 答：可以。\n7 问：您在美国？\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：还有些在其他地方，对吧？\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：好的。所以在新冠疫情仍伴随我们的那段时期，\n12 人们出行并不那么频繁，对吧？\n13 答：对，不频繁。\n14 问：对。而且，你知道，您并没有认为这些与您共事了\n15 两年半的人，像是什么不存在的\n16 真人，对吧？\n17 答：没有，他们是真人。\n18 问：他们是真人，对吧？在做实际的工作。\n19 答：是的。\n20 问：好的。所以明确地说，仅仅因为您没有当面\n21 见过他们，并不意味着他们不是在做\n22 实际工作的真人，对吧？\n23 答：没错。\n24 问：好的。现在您还作证说GTV支付了您的薪资，我\n25 记得是从 2020 年 6 月到 12 月，对吧？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 答：没错。\n2 问：好的。然后在那之后不久，您开始由\n3 喜马拉雅支付薪资，对吧？\n4 答：在我被GTV一脚踢开之后。\n5 问：嗯，我们稍后会谈到那点。我们还是只围绕\n6 事实，好吗？\n7 问题是：在您离开GTV之后，您的薪资是由\n8 喜马拉雅支付的，对吧？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：好的。那您是否知道Hamilton（汉密尔顿）或喜马拉雅\n11 是否向GTV偿付了其为您支付的薪资？\n12 答：我不知道，律师。\n13 问：好的。当您开始在喜马拉雅工作时——为了重新梳理\n14 并回到那点——当您在喜马拉雅开始工作时，同样是在\n15 2020 年 6 月，您知道要向Je先生汇报，对吧？\n16 答：对。\n17 问：好的。这对您来说一开始就很清楚。\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：好的。因为您曾与他通了最初的电话，对吧？\n20 答：是的。\n21 问：对。并且您在Skype上与他互发过一些消息？\n22 答：是的。\n23 问：好的。在那个时候，正如我认为您之前提到过的，\n24 喜马拉雅也雇用了一些其他人，对吧？\n25 答：没——没错。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 问：以及像您一样的一些其他高管人员，对吧？\n2 答：是的，但他们不是喜马拉雅的员工。\n3 问：好的。\n4 答：就其本身而言。\n5 问：我们稍后会谈到那点。\n6 那么在您开始为该交易所工作的时候，\n7 它当时还不叫喜马拉雅交易所，对吧？\n8 答：我不确定那是不是事实。我相信在我——在我离开GTV\n9 并去那里工作的时候，它已经叫\n10 喜马拉雅交易所了。\n11 问：好的。您是否记得在与政府方的会面中\n12 告诉过他们，您在给喜马拉雅交易所命名方面\n13 给出过一些意见？\n14 答：我没有在喜马拉雅交易所的命名上给出过意见，但是在\n15 代币命名上我给过。\n16 问：那——行吧。\n17 那么Marios Mamzeris是谁？\n18 答：他是首席运营官。\n19 问：好的。Marios也是在您被雇用的差不多\n20 同一时间被雇用的人吗？\n21 答：是的。我是助理——是的。\n22 问：回答“是的”就行。\n23 答：是的。\n24 问：好的。他是一名区块链顾问，对吧？\n25 答：他是。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 问：并且他最终成为了（正如我们刚才谈到的）首席\n2 运营官。\n3 答：没错。\n4 问：他常驻希腊，对吧？\n5 答：没错。\n6 问：好的。你们大家一起远程工作。\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：好的。然后还有一个人——您可能需要\n9 帮我确认一下——名字叫Di，D-I？\n10 答：是的。Di，Di（邸）。\n11 问：抱歉。Di。那是名还是姓？\n12 答：那是他的名。\n13 问：他的姓是什么？\n14 答：我想不起来了。\n15 问：好的。\n16 答：很遗憾。\n17 问：您和Di共事了多久？\n18 答：全程。\n19 问：共事了两年半。\n20 答：是的。\n21 问：好的。他是IT主管？\n22 答：他是。\n23 问：好的。同样，他也是在大致相同的时间被雇用的。\n24 答：我不确定那是不是事实。我相信他在那很久之前\n25 就一直在为William（余建明）工作了。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 反询问\n1 问：他是差不多在同一时间被引入这个项目的，\n2 对吧？\n3 答：他在我之前，比我稍微早一点。\n4 问：好的。但是——\n5 答：是的。\n6 问：在您加入的几个月之内，对吧？\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：好的。然后是否有一名合规人员也是在\n9 大致相同的时间加入的？\n10 答：合规人员应该是在一两个月之后。\n11 问：好的。行吧。我的意思是，在几个月之内我\n12 就会认为是差不多同一时间，如果您觉得这讲得通\n13 的话。\n14 答：说得过去。\n15 问：好的。那么当您加入交易所项目时，\n16 据您的理解，该项目是否已经在澳大利亚\n17 获得了牌照？\n18 答：我不确定它当时是否已经获得了牌照，但牌照是，\n19 你知道，很快就拿到了。\n20 问：当然。所以它要么已经拿到，要么正在申请\n21 过程中。\n22 答：没错。\n23 问：最终它确实在澳大利亚拿到了牌照。\n24 答：没错。\n25 问：那是什么牌照？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：该牌照是用于——用于该交易所作为一家交易所在 Australia（澳大利亚）开展业务。\n2\n3 问：好的。正如我认为我们之前谈到过的，当时还有一名合规人员常驻在澳大利亚，对吗？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：好的。但最终该交易所决定放弃在澳大利亚境外开展运营的想法，因为有税务方面的影响；这是您的理解吗？\n6 答：没错。\n7 问：好的。现在我们简要谈谈 Hamilton（汉密尔顿）。\n8 您是在 2020 年 6 月入职后开始熟悉汉密尔顿的，对吗？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：好的。而且您当时理解汉密尔顿是一家投资公司；这样说公允吗？\n11 答：是的，这样说很公允。\n12 问：而且正如人们所说的，它还有一个咨询业务部门？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：好的。而且这两家机构都是由 Mr. Je（余建明先生）创办的，对吗？\n15 答：没错。\n16 问：而且他是这两家机构的所有人。\n17 答：是 UBO（最终受益所有人），是的。\n18 问：最终受益所有人。好的。我本来没打算用这个词，但您用了，那我们就用这个词。所以他是最终受益所有人。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（美国纽约南区法院速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 据您当时的理解，汉密尔顿在 UK（英国）有一间相当大的办公室，对吗？\n2 答：他们最终设立了一间办公室，是的。\n3 问：好的。随着汉密尔顿的发展壮大，他们开始配置更多的人员，对吗？\n4 答：对。\n5 问：配置了更多从事交易所项目的人员，对吗？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：据我了解，您早些时候作证说，在疫情期间，汉密尔顿和余先生很难让员工到办公室上班，对吗？\n8 答：很难招揽到优秀人才。\n9 问：对。而且余先生希望员工到办公室上班，对吗？\n10 答：是的，这是一项强制要求。\n11 问：好的。正如您所说，依您之见，您觉得可能正是因为这种要求员工必须到办公室上班的规定，交易所项目才错失了一些本来可以招揽到的顶尖人才。\n12 答：确实如此。\n13 问：好的。话说回来，即使在这个阶段，也就是 2020 年下半年——只是为了确立一个时间节点——依然可以公允地说，交易所项目处于初创模式，对吗？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：好的。在初创模式下大家都充满激情；\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 大家对于尝试打造这款产品感到非常兴奋，对吗；可以这样说吗？\n2 答：可以这样说。\n3 问：对吧？充满激情？\n4 答：充满激情。\n5 问：对。而且有很多事情要做。\n6 答：您能重复一遍吗。\n7 问：而且有很多事情要做。\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：对。但特别是考虑到我们之前谈到的余先生所拥有的宏伟目标，对吧？\n10 答：对。\n11 问：而且有时会让人觉得难以承受，可以这样说吗？\n12 答：我并没有觉得难以承受。\n13 问：好的。您在主询问中说您从未当面见过余先生，对吗？\n14 答：没错。\n15 问：好的。再次说明，这是在 COVID（新冠疫情）期间。这涵盖了您在那里工作的大部分时期，对吗？\n16 答：对。\n17 问：好的。当您加入交易所时——再次强调，我关注的是比方说 2020 年下半年到可能 2021 年初——您的印象是当时投入了大量资金来启动这个项目，这样说公允吗？\n18 答：是的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：您能给我们举几个这方面的例子吗？\n2 答：我们——嗯，我们有一大笔薪酬支出，我们有巨额的技术账单和巨额的云服务账单，而且我们当时正在开发数据中心。\n3 问：好的。而且你们在各项事务上也有外部供应商，是吗？\n4 答：是的，相当多。\n5 问：好的。我相信您曾告诉政府方，您认为仅仅为了把各项设施搭建起来，IT 支出就达到了数百万美元，对吗？\n6 答：确实如此。\n7 问：好的。在此时，您理解这些初创成本的资金是来自余先生，对吗？\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：而在早些时候——抱歉。撤回。\n10 在 2020 年和 2021 年初，在 2021 年 4 月之前，该交易所没有向任何人出售过任何代币，对吗？\n11 答：没错。\n12 问：据您所知，该交易所当时没有募集任何资金，对吗？\n13 答：据我所知是没有。\n14 问：对。在此期间他们没有出售任何 HCN，对吗？\n15 答：没有。\n16 问：在此期间他们没有出售任何 HDO，对吗？\n17 答：没有。\n18 问：好的。所以对您而言非常明确的是，在此期间\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 用于建立交易所的资金并非来自投资者。\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：也并非来自代币购买者。\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：据您所知，也不是来自其他任何人。\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：好的。我相信您曾告诉政府方——我说得对吗——这有点像是——\n8 法官：您刚才作证说当时没有代币购买行为；是这样吗？\n9 MR. SCHIRICK（希里克律师）：在那个时间点上是没有的，法官阁下。\n10 证人：在那个时间点上。\n11 法官：好的。请继续。\n12 问：而且这有点像——撤回。\n13 您和您的同事会讨论为了搭建交易所投入了多少资金，对吗？\n14 MR. HORTON（霍顿律师）：反对。传闻证据。\n15 法官：你可以回答。\n16 答：是的，是的，我们当中的几个人——我们几个人讨论过开销过大的问题，是的。\n17 问：是的。好的。那么我们简要谈谈交易所的领导团队。\n18 团队里有余先生，对吧，他是最终受益所有人？\n19 答：是的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：在某种程度上，您知道，此时是运营业务的事实上的负责人，对吗？有点像，抛开职务头衔不谈，是由他来发号施令，对吗？\n2 答：头号人物。\n3 问：是的，当然。好的。然后有 David Fallon（大卫·法伦），他是汉密尔顿的 CEO（首席执行官），对吗？这是您的理解吗？\n4 答：我不确定我知道他是首席执行官。我知道他是一名基金经理。\n5 问：好的。讲得通。但他属于汉密尔顿的高层人物——\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：——这样说公允吗？可能在他手下有一名经理。\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：还有 Tim Clark（蒂姆·克拉克）；蒂姆·克拉克是谁？\n10 答：是的，他是——他是第一任 CTO（首席技术官）。\n11 问：好的。您并不欣赏他，对吗？\n12 答：不欣赏他的专业技能。但我个人挺喜欢他。\n13 问：明白。好的。但在某个时候——好吧，撤回。\n14 在此时，在这一时间点——再次聚焦于 2020 年底、2021 年初——蒂姆是首席技术官，对吗？\n15 答：没错。\n16 问：好的。后来他被别人替换掉了，对吗？\n17 答：对。\n18 问：好的。然后是 Tom O'Leary（汤姆·奥利里）；汤姆·奥利里是谁？\n19 答：他是那段时间聘用的首席营销官。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：然后我们谈到了 Marios Mamzeris（马里奥斯·曼泽里斯）。他是 COO（首席运营官），对吗？\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：好的。那 Azeem Bashir（阿齐姆·巴希尔）呢？\n4 答：他是首席安全官。\n5 问：好的。所以是首席信息官、首席安全官？\n6 答：是的，是的。\n7 问：Joe Wang（乔·王）是谁？\n8 答：乔·王。我不确定我记得这个名字。\n9 问：好的。Hesop Chin（音译：金熙燮）呢？\n10 答：他是来自澳大利亚的合规官。\n11 问：也就是我们之前提到的那个人。\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：而 Hesop 是交易所的首席合规官，对吗？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：好的。那 Ehsan Haque（埃赫桑·哈克）呢？\n16 答：他是当时的总法律顾问。\n17 问：好的。现在我认为我们刚才大致列出了八到九位在此期间在交易所相当高级别的人员；这样说公允吗？\n18 答：嗯，他们是为汉密尔顿咨询工作的。\n19 问：对。他们把大量时间花在交易所的工作上，对吗，因为那些就是与您共事的人？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：确实如此。\n2 问：对。所以说在此期间有八到九位高级人员在交易所工作，这样说公允吗？为交易所工作？请原谅我。\n3 答：在春季是这样。秋季没有那么多。\n4 问：我们说的是，抱歉，2020 年——\n5 答：是的，在最初——让所有那些、所有那些高管入职花了一点时间，所以大概到 2021 年 1 月所有人员才各就各位。\n6 问：好的。公允。谢谢。感谢您的澄清。\n7 所以在 2020 年秋季以及大概冬季，交易所仍处于这种筹备阶段。\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：交易所仍在招聘人才、招聘高级人员，对吗？\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：好的。依您的回忆，这些大约在 2021 年 1 月基本到位。\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：好的。然后在高峰期，汉密尔顿大约有多少人从事交易所的工作？\n14 答：嗯，曾经一度有 200 名员工——\n15 问：好的。\n16 答：——在 London（伦敦）。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：对。那么交易所——撤回。\n2 鉴于汉密尔顿的咨询部门是其中一些人的前雇主，好的吧？我们认可这一点。但那些人当时是在从事交易所项目；这样说公允吗？\n3 答：律师，这样说很公允。\n4 问：很公允的描述？好的。那么鉴于此，说交易所雇佣了多名从事交易所工作的财务人员，这样说公允吗？\n5 答：很公允。\n6 问：以及多名从事交易所工作的 IT 人员？\n7 答：很多，很多名。\n8 问：是的，没错。还有很多很多名开发人员，对吗？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：好的。现在交易所还有一条 24/7 全天候客户服务热线，对吗？\n11 答：没错。\n12 问：好的。那是什么时候设立的？\n13 答：那也是在早期，您知道，大概也是同一时期。为了让所有人员到位，可能滞后了几个星期。\n14 问：好的。公允。交易所实际上直到 2021 年较晚的时候才真正拥有客户——这一点我们稍后会谈到——对吗？\n15 答：是的，那是一个培训和入职准备期。\n16 问：所以交易所在预期将拥有客户的情况下，正在做准备、筹备设立客服职能。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：好的。再次确认，那是 24/7 全天候运营，对吗？\n3 答：是的。\n4 问：而且它甚至不是外包的，对吗？\n5 答：不是。\n6 问：他们是由交易所或汉密尔顿直接雇佣的，对吗？\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：而且客服人员既会说普通话也会说英语，对吗？\n9 答：大多数人是这样，对的。\n10 问：公允地说，您觉得这相当令人印象深刻？\n11 答：我确实这样觉得。\n12 问：是的。\n13 好的。现在让我们稍微谈谈日常工作。而且我相信您在主询问中略有提及，但你们每天都有电话会议；这样说公允吗？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：好的。那些电话会议对您来说开始得相当早，对吗？\n16 答：早上 7 点。\n17 问：是的。早上 7 点，因为很多其他人都在大洋彼岸，时间要早几个小时。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：从时区上来说。\n3 答：对。\n4 问：有时您会与不同的高级同事进行一对一会议？\n5 答：是的。\n6 问：好的。有时您会与 William（威廉）进行一对一会议吗？\n7 答：其实没有。\n8 问：好的。那么，您和威廉开会时，现场是否还有其他一两个人？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：好的。他开会时通常不是一个人；会有人陪同他一起参加，对吗？\n11 答：对，对。\n12 问：但鉴于此，您在此期间确实与威廉有很多互动，对吗？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：好的。说您的每周日程包括周一的电话会议——那是一种全体员工会议，这样说公允吗？\n15 答：是的。\n16 问：由威廉或者阿齐姆主持该会议？\n17 答：没错。\n18 问：然后到周二，周二是技术会议时间，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 对吧？\n2 答：据我回忆，是的。\n3 问：好的。那是首席技术官主管的，\n4 对吧？\n5 答：是的。\n6 问：而且你们会，你知道，取决于时间，\n7 每次通话大概会有 20 到 30 人左右参加，\n8 对吧，周二的通话？\n9 答：没有。可能接近 10 到 15 人。\n10 问：好的。周二的通话有 10 到 15 人。\n11 然后在周三，你们会有运营\n12 会议，对吧？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：那些是由交易所的首席运营官（COO）主持的，对吧？\n15 答：没错。\n16 问：好的。平均大约有多少人参加那些会议？\n17\n18 答：跟技术会议差不多。\n19 问：好的。然后在周四你们有财务会议，对吧？\n20 答：是的。\n21 问：好的。然后在周五你们有利害关系人\n22 会议，对吧？\n23 答：没错。\n24 问：那是用来形容包含你在内的\n25 较高级别高管群体的表述。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：确实如此，但大多数——大多数利害关系人\n2 都会参与所有会议。\n3 问：是的，说得有道理，但你们有一个类似单独的通话——\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：——面向一个更小、更高级别的群体。\n6 答：没错。\n7 问：好的。那可是有非常多的人在这个项目上工作，\n8 不是吗？\n9 答：确实是的。\n10 问：好的。你是否记得——而且我相信你，再次说明，\n11 可能在直接询问中提到过这一点，你填写了我\n12 姑且称之为工时表的东西？我不知道这词是否准确。\n13 但你知道我指的是什么吗？\n14 答：我知道。我知道。\n15 问：好的。你差不多以图表的形式，你知道，列出了\n16 你在当月各周所做的事情，针对\n17 整整一个月，对吧？\n18 答：没错。\n19 问：概括性地列出。\n20 答：没错。\n21 问：好的。那差不多就是你向交易所开具账单\n22 以便获得工作报酬的方式。\n23 答：没错。没错。\n24 问：好的。在这段时间里你的薪资是多少？\n25\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：我记得起薪是 180,000。\n2 问：好的。现在让我们稍微谈谈从监管角度来看\n3 交易所的演进过程。\n4 我们之前谈到过交易所最初考虑\n5 可能凭借 Australia（澳大利亚）牌照运营，对吧？\n6 答：没错。\n7 问：好的。但正如我们之前讨论的那样，该方案被放弃了，\n8 对吧？\n9 答：对。\n10 问：好的。然后转向了可能在\n11 British Virgin Islands（英属维尔京群岛，简称 BVI）开展运营，对吧？\n12 答：没错。\n13 问：我们会谈到冲浪的事。我保证。\n14 答：好的。\n15 问：我想多了解一些那方面的情况。\n16 那么转向英属维尔京群岛的决定，你是否了解\n17 那是出于什么原因？\n18 答：我认为那是一个在当时我们无需牌照\n19 就可以发行代币的司法管辖区。\n20 问：好的。所以从监管角度来看是有利的。\n21\n22 答：确实是的。\n23 问：只是从监管角度来看更为宽松。\n24 答：在当时来说，是的。\n25 问：在当时，对。所以你实际上被要求\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 前往英属维尔京群岛。\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：好的。去考察在那里设立实体的事宜，对吧？\n4 答：没错。\n5 问：而且你实际上在当地聘请了律师，对吧？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：好的。关于聘请谁，你提出了建议，\n8 对吧？\n9 答：没有，我没有提出建议。\n10 问：你会见律师了吗？\n11 答：会见了。\n12 问：好的。然后有了这个英属维尔京群岛沙盒申请，\n13 对吧？\n14 答：没错。\n15 问：你在此前的直接询问中作证谈到过，对吧？\n16 答：对。\n17 问：好的。大约是什么时候，你去到\n18 英属维尔京群岛考察其沙盒机制？\n19 答：我记得应该是在 2021 年春末或夏季，\n20 但我不记得确切时间了。\n21 问：好的。好的。明白。\n22 但肯定是 2021 年；不是 2020 年。\n23 答：对。\n24 问：对。好的。明白。\n25 另外我相信你也在直接询问中作证说你\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 在英属维尔京群岛考察了潜在的办公场所——\n2\n3 答：是的。\n4 问：——对吧？而且你还寻找了一些电信服务提供商？\n5 答：是的，那是——是的，是的，我找了。\n6 问：比如数据、互联网服务提供商？\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：这是运营加密货币交易所必需的，对吧？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：然后你还与 BVI FSC（英属维尔京群岛金融服务委员会）的人员进行了交谈，对吧？\n11 答：是的，是的。\n12 问：那是 Financial Services（金融服务）——\n13 答：Committee（委员会）。\n14 问：——Committee？\n15 答：或者 Commission（委员会）。是的，这两个当中的一个。\n16 问：不管是哪个；反正它是英属维尔京群岛当地的一个监管机构。\n17 答：对。它是当地的一个监管机构。\n18 问：明白了。监管机构。\n19 你就那个沙盒申请与他们进行了交谈，\n20 对吧？\n21 答：是的。\n22 问：你在英属维尔京群岛待了大约多久？\n23 答：我每次只去一两个星期，但我\n24 来回跑了几次。\n25 问：好的。两次，还是两次以上？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：我想是——我想总共是三次。\n2 问：三次。好的。而这个沙盒申请，是因为\n3 英属维尔京群岛当时正寻求吸引创新\n4 技术和企业进驻该群岛——\n5 HORTON 先生（检察官）：反对。\n6 问：——依你理解是这样吗？\n7 法庭：反对无效。你可以回答。\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：好的。它被称为沙盒——同样，也是问\n10 你的理解——沙盒有点像是一个隐喻，对吧，代表能够\n11 在里面玩耍？\n12 答：对。\n13 问：对吧？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：你能玩耍是因为规则稍微\n16 宽松一些，正如你之前描述的那样。\n17 答：确实如此。\n18 问：对。好的。而且你发现为了在\n19 英属维尔京群岛沙盒申请中获得成功，你必须拥有我认为是\n20 50% 左右的员工常驻该群岛？\n21 答：没错。\n22 问：对。那么可以公平地说，鉴于该交易所的大多数\n23 人员分散在世界各地，这变成了一件\n24 比较难处理的事情？\n25 答：我不确定这样说是否公允。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：好吧，无论如何，这是你们大家认为\n2 难以接受的一个条件，对吧？\n3 HORTON 先生：反对。已问过且已作答。\n4 法庭：反对成立。\n5 SCHIRICK 先生（辩护律师）：我问过那个问题了吗？好吧。\n6 问：无论如何，你最终以及交易所最终\n7 放弃了在英属维尔京群岛的尝试，对吧？\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：但可以公允地说，它至少进展到了某种——撤回问题。\n10 你是否认为，作为一处可选的运营所在地，\n11 它已经进展到了一个成熟的阶段？\n12 答：那是一个——\n13 HORTON 先生：对问题的形式提出反对。\n14 法庭：你可以回答。\n15 答：这种说法是公允的。\n16 问：好的。并且在该尝试中投入了大量的资源，\n17 对吧？\n18 答：不。那不正确。\n19 问：没有投入大量资源吗？\n20 HORTON 先生：反对。已问过且已作答。\n21 法庭：反对成立。\n22 问：好的。交易所必须聘请律师来处理\n23 沙盒申请，对吗？\n24 答：是的，他们聘请了律师。\n25 问：好的。而且他们当时付给你薪水，对吧？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：他们付给我薪水。\n2 问：好的。我想你不认为那是一笔重大投资？\n3\n4 HORTON 先生：反对。\n5 法庭：你可以回答。\n6 答：我不这样认为，因为他们不愿意支付租金。\n7 问：你说的租金，字面意思是指——\n8 答：对，他们不愿意为办公室支付押金。\n9\n10 问：好的。好的。行吧。所以他们不想为办公室支付\n11 那笔钱。\n12 因此无论原因是什么，那件事最终没有成功，\n13 对吧？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：如果成了本来挺好的。\n16 答：真让我懊恼。\n17 问：是的。如果成了本来挺好的。\n18 另外当你在那里的时候，我想你说过你\n19 还从事了一些其他附带项目？\n20 答：我说过那个吗？\n21 问：我们换个方式问。当你在\n22 英属维尔京群岛时，你是否从事过任何其他与交易所无关的附带项目？\n23\n24 答：是的，到那时我确实有一个附带项目。\n25 问：好的。我相信你在直接询问中作证说你\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 每天实际上只为交易所工作三到四个小时？\n2 答：这么说没错。\n3 问：对。可以公平地说，你把其余的时间要么花在\n4 冲浪上，要么花在你的附带项目上，对吧？\n5 答：没错。\n6 问：好的。那么在交易所放弃——好吧，撤回。\n7 你能否大致向我们给出你最准确的估计，关于\n8 是何时作出不再在英属维尔京群岛推进的决定的。\n9 答：那是——我相信是在我们的沙盒申请被拒绝\n10 之后不久。\n11 问：对。好的。然后又发生了一次转向，这次\n12 是可能将交易所运营迁往 Abu Dhabi（阿布扎比），\n13 对吧？\n14 答：没错，律师。\n15 问：好的。然后交易所开始着手尝试\n16 在阿布扎比获得牌照，对吧？\n17 答：没错。\n18 问：好的。而这个——撤回。\n19 Je 先生（余建明）是否在任何时候问过你，如果交易所成功\n20 设立在英属维尔京群岛，你是否\n21 愿意搬到英属维尔京群岛？\n22 答：他问过。\n23 问：他问过。而你告诉他你愿意去，\n24 对吧？\n25 答：非常愿意。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：听起来确实如此。\n2 那么 Je 先生在其他时候是否也问过你\n3 是否愿意为了这份工作搬迁到其他地点？\n4 答：他问过。\n5 问：好的。他问过你是否愿意在美国境内\n6 搬迁吗？\n7 答：问过。\n8 问：他问过你是否愿意搬迁到\n9 欧洲吗？\n10 答：没有。\n11 问：到英国吗？\n12 答：没有。\n13 问：好的。那么在某个时候他是否问过你是否\n14 愿意搬迁到阿布扎比？\n15 答：问过。\n16 问：好的。而那是你不愿意去的地方，对吧？\n17 答：没错。\n18 问：好的。那么——\n19 SCHIRICK 先生：抱歉。法官阁下，请容我稍停\n20 片刻。\n21 问：好的。谈到阿布扎比，你的印象是\n22 Je 先生在那里感到挺自在，对吧？\n23 HORTON 先生：反对。\n24 问：比如他对当地情况很熟悉？\n25 法庭：你可以回答他是否感到\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 自在；以及通过观察他，你是否得到了他感到\n2 自在的印象。\n3 答：我有这种印象。\n4 问：是的。比如他挺熟悉当地情况？\n5 答：熟悉情况并且有人脉。\n6 问：对。好的。而在当时——我们现在谈论的是\n7 阿布扎比——大约是 2021 年初秋；这么说公允吗？\n8 答：2021 年初秋。不，我——我认为那应该是\n9 2022 年的事。\n10 问：好的。\n11 答：不过我不确定具体日期。\n12 问：好的。明白了。那是差不多在你受雇于那里的\n13 后期阶段；可以这么说吗？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：好的。现在我只想稍微谈谈在直接询问中\n16 被多次讨论的这个积分系统。\n17 答：好的。\n18 问：好的？你能否告诉我这个积分系统是如何运作的。\n19 答：好的。流程是用户注册加入交易所，他们\n20 会经过合规审查清单，获得交易所的\n21 接纳，然后他们会被要求用——用美元\n22 为其账户充值，之后他们会用这些资金购买\n23 这些积分。\n24 问：好的。\n25 答：然后积分会显示在他们的账户中，在他们的\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 控制面板。\n2 问：好的。明白了。抱歉。我想你在那里用了\n3 “充值（top up）”这个词。\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：那么特别使用这个词有什么原因吗？\n6 答：有的，这是一个——这是一个伦敦用语。\n7 问：当然。而且据你理解，使用它的部分原因\n8 是不是因为“存款（deposit）”一词会带有\n9 银行交易的意味，对吗？\n10 答：没错。\n11 问：对。所以“充值”是一种更好的表述方式，对吗？\n12 答：当时有过一些来回讨论。我们最终决定使用\n13 “充值”。\n14 问：好的。那么一旦交——一旦——我们就统称它们为\n15 美元吧。这样说合适吗，用于账户充值的\n16 几乎一直都是美元？\n17 答：没错。\n18 问：好的。所以一旦美元存入账户，据我\n19 理解——请你向我证实一下——客户就会\n20 在 Himalaya（喜马拉雅）的内部记录中获得相应\n21 相关等额的积分——\n22 HORTON（霍顿）先生：反对，辩方律师在就其个人\n23 理解作证。\n24 SCHIRICK（希里克）先生：我可以换个说法。我很乐意换个说法。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法院速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 没关系。\n2 法官：继续。\n3 问：这样说是否准确：运作方式是\n4 客户用美元为账户充值，然后\n5 交易所会在其内部账簿、内部账本上，向客户发放\n6 相关加密货币的积分？\n7 霍顿先生：反对提问形式。\n8 法官：你可以回答。\n9 答：这种说法很准确，是的，确实如此。\n10 问：好的。当客户想要进行交易时，\n11 交易所在其内部账本上，会根据情况在其内部账本上\n12 转移这些积分，对吗？\n13 答：我的理解是这样的，是的。\n14 问：好的。如果一个用户——\n15 法官：你作证的是你所\n16 理解的系统情况，还是实际发生的情况？\n17 证人：是我所理解的系统情况。\n18 法官：换句话说，那是你\n19 理解中的方案？\n20 证人：是的，是的。\n21 法官：继续。\n22 由希里克先生提问：\n23 问：当用户想要例如用其持有的\n24 HDO 购买交易币 HCN 时，该笔交易\n25 会在交易所的内部账本上执行，对吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：对。\n2 问：所以你可以使用 HDO 积分来购买 HCN，对吗？\n3 答：是的。\n4 问：好的。然后 HCN 积分可以与其他\n5 拥有 HCN 或 HDO 的人进行交易，对吗？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：而且 HDO 积分可以兑换现金，对吗？\n8 答：对。\n9 问：好的。明白了。那么这样说是否准确：我们刚才谈到的\n10 那个积分系统，在交易所并不是打算永远\n11 沿用下去的？\n12 答：我认为这样说很准确。\n13 问：对。你们有计划进一步开发该系统，对吗？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：并且逐步脱离积分系统，对吗？\n16 答：是的。\n17 问：对。最终计划是让交易所\n18 在链上运行，对吗？\n19 答：那是当时的计划。\n20 问：并且废除积分系统，对吗？\n21 答：最终会废除，是的。\n22 问：对。当时的计划是让交易所成为一个\n23 常规的加密货币交易所，允许交易除 HCN 和 HDO\n24 以外的其他加密货币，对吗？\n25 答：那是一个目标，是的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：对。在可以交易其他加密货币这一点上，\n2 与其他加密货币交易所并无不同，\n3 对吗。\n4 答：是的，到那时它会更像一个典型的交易所。\n5 问：好的。而这些目标正是我们之前谈到的\n6 喜马拉雅团队正在为之努力的方向，对吗？\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：好的。事实上，正如我们之前谈到的，计划是\n9 让交易所最终发展成一个成熟的\n10 生态系统。\n11 答：雄心勃勃的计划，是的。\n12 问：是的，说得对。我们之前谈过这个。非常雄心勃勃，但\n13 那就是计划。\n14 事实上，那就是大家正在为之努力的目标，\n15 对吗？\n16 霍顿先生：该问题已问过并已作答。\n17 希里克先生：法官阁下，生态系统是不同的问题。\n18 法官：反对成立。\n19 问：好的。作为该生态系统的一部分，交易所曾有计划\n20 构建所谓的商户门户（merchant portal），对吗？\n21 答：是的。\n22 问：好的。那是什么？\n23 答：那是一个由零售客户组成的门户，他们\n24 能够接受 HCN 或 HDO 作为付款并发送\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 产品。\n2 问：好的。对。在这种语境下，商户指的是\n3 像企业这样的实体，对吗？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：所以其构想是，交易所正在构建某种\n6 允许企业接受在交易所交易的代币的\n7 机制。\n8 答：没错。\n9 问：对。所以其构想是为了让人们可以使用\n10 这些代币进行交易。\n11 答：是的。\n12 问：对。你知道一个叫做 H Pay 的东西吗？\n13 答：是的，我知道。\n14 问：好的。Hamilton（汉密尔顿）和交易所的\n15 人员当时正在开发一款 H Pay 应用程序，这是真的吗？\n16 答：那是真的。\n17 问：好的。汉密尔顿的人抱怨商户门户的\n18 构建速度没有达到他们期望的那么快，这也是真的，\n19 对吗？\n20 答：不是汉密尔顿的人抱怨。\n21 问：难道不是——\n22 答：你能换个说法吗。\n23 问：当然。Je（余建明）先生是否有时会因为商户门户\n24 的进展没有他期望的那么快而感到沮丧？\n25 答：他确实沮丧过。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：对。他是不是对生态系统的进展没有\n2 他期望的那么快感到有一点沮丧？\n3 答：程度较轻。\n4 问：好的。关于 H Pay 也是同样的问题，情况如何。\n5 答：H Pay 启动得晚得多，所以那里没有很大的\n6 沮丧情绪，但可能有轻微的沮丧\n7 情绪。\n8 问：但它启动了；H Pay 上确实开展了实际工作，\n9 对吗？\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：而且商户门户上也确实开展了实际工作，\n12 对吗？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：对。你在那里的整个期间，没有看到任何迹象\n15 表明人们没有在朝这些目标努力，\n16 对吗？\n17 答：没错。\n18 问：好的。你是否记得曾告诉过政府方，你的\n19 印象是余先生当时在全力奔波以吸引商户\n20 加入该平台？\n21 答：你能再换个说法吗。你能再说\n22 一遍吗。\n23 问：当然。我再试一次。你是否记得在与政府方的\n24 会面中告诉过他们，你的印象是\n25 余先生当时在全力奔波以吸引商户加入\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 该平台？\n2 答：我不记得说过那句话，不记得。\n3 问：好的。我们看看能否唤起你的记忆。\n4 希里克先生：豪尔赫（Jorge），能不能请你为双方和\n5 证人调出 3506 号文件第 13 页。\n6 法官阁下，请容我稍等片刻。\n7 问：布朗（Brown）先生，你看到屏幕上出现的\n8 文件摘录了吗？\n9 答：看到了。\n10 问：你看到该文件中高亮显示的部分了吗？\n11 答：看到了。\n12 问：好的。这是否唤起了你关于曾对政府方说过——\n13 答：唤起了。\n14 问：——那句话的记忆？\n15 答：唤起了。谢谢。\n16 问：所以你确实在与政府方的会面中告诉过他们，\n17 余先生实际上当时在全力奔波以吸引商户加入\n18 该平台，对吗？\n19 答：是的。\n20 霍顿先生：该问题已问过并已作答。\n21 希里克先生：我们只是在进行澄清。\n22 法官：已问过并已作答。反对成立。\n23 问：好的。那么再次确认，以你在交易所期间的经历，\n24 你没有看到任何迹象表明人们没有\n25 努力工作尝试吸引商户加入\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 该平台，对吗？\n2 霍顿先生：法官阁下，该问题已问过并已作答。\n3 法官：反对成立。\n4 问：他们并不总是成功，对吗？\n5 答：没错。\n6 问：好的。而且你认为团队精力有点过于分散；\n7 这样说合适吗？\n8 答：团队精力过于分散？\n9 问：是的。\n10 答：我不确定——那不是——我不确定那是不是\n11 我会说的话。我认为当时人太多了。\n12 问：好的。那么，我们看看能否唤起你的记忆。\n13 答：好的。\n14 希里克先生：调出同一份文件。\n15 请给我一点时间。\n16 法官：问题不在于文件是否这么写；\n17 问题在于该文件是否唤起了你曾说过该话的\n18 记忆。\n19 证人：明白了，法官阁下。\n20 希里克先生：好的。谢谢。能不能请仅向\n21 双方、法庭和证人出示该文件。\n22 如果可以的话，请将其放大并高亮显示\n23 相关部分。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 由希里克先生提问：\n2 问：你看到了吗，布朗先生？\n3 答：是的，看到了。\n4 问：好的。现在我要给你看这里的另一段摘录。\n5 请稍等我们一下。\n6 好的。感谢你的耐心。我想我们现在找到了。\n7 布朗先生，为了给你提供上下文背景，这是同一份文件，但记录的是\n8 另一条内容？\n9 霍顿先生：抱歉。现在有待回答的问题吗？\n10 法官：文件已经展示出来了。我认为问题在于\n11 这是否唤起了他的记忆。\n12 希里克先生：是的。\n13 答：这确实唤起了记忆，但这是——这是在技术团队、\n14 在技术团队的语境下说的。\n15 问：有道理。我是说，我虽然还没问那个问题，但是\n16 是的，我明白。\n17 重点是，正如你告诉政府方的那样，他们——\n18 你认为技术团队精力过于分散，对吗？\n19 答：早期是这样，是的。\n20 法官：你说是相对于什么而言，在技术团队的语境下？\n21 证人：整体——整体人员编制\n22 臃肿。所以营销人员、其他部门都是头重脚轻的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1\n2 问：好的。技术团队精力过于分散，而且他们\n3 试图构建一整个生态系统，你认为这超出了他们的承受能力，\n4 对吗？\n5 答：是的，是的。\n6 问：好的。那么再次确认，你在交易所期间没有看到任何迹象\n7 表明该技术团队没有在真诚善意地\n8 努力构建该生态系统。\n9 霍顿先生：法官阁下，该问题已问过并已作答。\n10 希里克先生：法官阁下，我们现在谈的是技术团队。\n11 我认为这是一个不同的问题。\n12 法官：针对技术团队的问题你可以回答。\n13 答：你能再重复一遍吗。\n14 问：当然。所以你在交易所期间没有看到任何迹象\n15 表明技术团队没有尽最大努力去\n16 构建该生态系统，对吗？\n17 答：没错。没错。\n18 希里克先生：法官阁下，如果法庭认为合适的话，\n19 我想在我进入下一个话题之前，现在可能是一个\n20 合适的时间。\n21 法官：好的。现在是 2:29。我们现在\n22 休庭，3:00 返回。\n23 请记住，不要在你们之间讨论本案，也不要\n24 与任何其他人讨论。不要允许任何人在你们\n25 面前讨论本案。不要阅读、观看或收听来自\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO4 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 任何来源涉及本案主题的内容。\n2 证人先生，你可以退庭。不要讨论\n3 你的证言。\n4 （陪审团退庭）\n5 （证人退庭）\n6 法官：休庭之前还有什么事吗？\n7 霍顿先生：法官阁下，只有一件简短的程序性事务。\n8 为了安排证人出庭时间的需要，如果能知道\n9 辩方预计剩余的交叉询问还要持续多久，\n10 会很有帮助。\n11 法官：交叉询问还要持续多久？\n12 霍顿先生：是的。\n13 希里克先生：法官阁下，我目前最合理的估计\n14 大概还需要 45 分钟。\n15 法官：好的。待会儿见。\n16 （休庭）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 法官：请把陪审员带进来。\n2 法官助理：陪审团进庭。\n3 （陪审团在场）\n4 法官：请就座。请记住你\n5 仍在宣誓誓言约束下。你可以继续进行交叉询问。\n6 席里克（MR. SCHIRICK）律师：谢谢法官阁下。\n7 席里克律师进行询问：\n8 问：布朗（Brown）先生，你在直接询问中作证谈到了白皮书。你\n9 还记得吗？\n10 答：记得。\n11 问：并且我相信你作证说过——如果我说错了请纠正我——\n12 发行代币之前发布白皮书算是一种行业惯例，对吗？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：事实上，你参与了 HCN 的白皮书编写工作？\n15 答：是的。\n16 问：还有 HDO 的？\n17 答：是的。\n18 问：能否请调出 2021年4月 的 HDO 白皮书。\n19 我相信那是 GXBR-190 号证据。\n20 提醒一下陪审团，HDO 就是我们之前谈到的返现代币，\n21 对吗？\n22 答：没错。\n23 问：撰写这些白皮书的过程相当费周折，对吧？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区速记员公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：花了大约 10 或 11 个月；这么说公允吗？\n3 答：非常艰难，是的。\n4 问：而且你在起草过程中发挥了重要作用，对吧？\n5 答：是的。\n6 问：你与其他人员合作，但你承担了重要部分？\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：我们来看一下，如果可以的话，就是 Bates 编号（贝茨编号）以 9898 结尾的那一页。\n9 在调出该页的同时，布朗先生，这份文件的日期是 2021年4月，\n10 对吧？\n11 答：是的。\n12 问：日期是 2021年4月。这大约是在进行最初的那种代币私募发行的\n13 时间，对吧；这么说公允吗？\n14 答：这么说公允。\n15 问：因为在 2021年11月 之前（我们马上会讲到），\n16 之前只是向亲朋好友进行私募销售，\n17 对吧，这么说公允吗？\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：所以这份文件是配合该私募销售发布的，公允地说，\n20 或者至少是在同一时间发布的？\n21 答：在同一时间。\n22 问：既然要进行销售，所以你们发布了有关所售产品的信息？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：现在我们看到这一页，如果你能看到顶端写着喜马拉雅美元（Himalaya Dollar）解决方案。你看到了吗？\n3 答：看到了。\n4 问：这是否已经向陪审团出示了？是的。好的。\n5 我将朗读一小段，如果我读得不对请告诉我。\n6 从第三段往下，以「Members」（会员）这个词开头。\n7 「喜马拉雅交易所（Himalaya Exchange）的会员将能够通过在喜马拉雅交易所购买 HDO 积分来参与喜马拉雅美元的发行。」你看到了吗？\n8 答：看到了。\n9 问：然后再往下移两段，看到中间以「if the market」（如果市场）开头的句子。你看这里写着：\n10 「如果 HDO 积分市场出现流动性严重短缺，发行方将有能力动用储备资金提供流动性支持。」你看到了吗？\n11 答：看到了。\n12 问：然后再往下移两段，到以「In addition」（此外）开头的句子。\n13 「除交易解决方案的益处外，HDO 积分还设计用于通过『喜马拉雅支付应用程序（Himalaya pay app）』使用。将于第三阶段推出的喜马拉雅支付应用程序将允许会员使用 HDO 积分向在喜马拉雅生态系统内通过喜马拉雅支付接受商品和服务付款的商户进行境内和跨境支付。」\n14 这里定义了喜马拉雅生态系统。\n15 「会员还将能够把 HDO 积分从其喜马拉雅支付账户转账至其他会员的喜马拉雅支付账户。」我读得正确吗？\n16 答：正确。\n17 问：现在，公允地说，这描述的是你和我今天早些时候讨论过的 HDO 积分系统吗？\n18 答：公允。\n19 问：并且公允地说，我们刚才读到的内容描述了预期的 H Pay 应用程序上线情况吗？\n20 答：是的。\n21 问：能否请翻到下一页。\n22 顶端写着「Roll Out」（推广上线）。你看到了吗？\n23 答：看到了。\n24 问：而且大体而言，白皮书中的这张幻灯片或页面显示了生态系统的分阶段推广上线；这么说公允吗？\n25 答：是的，公允。\n26 问：事实上，在左上方就写明了分阶段推广上线的预期时间表，对吧？\n27 答：是的。\n28 问：我们来读第一条。上面写着：「喜马拉雅交易所预上线及 HDO 上线，私募参与者。」\n29 在此稍作暂停，你是否理解这就是指你和我刚才谈到的私募销售？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：我理解，是的。\n2 问：上面写着：「私募参与者可以申请开立喜马拉雅交易所账户并完成 KYC（了解你的客户）程序。开户后，私募参与者可以通过按 1:1 的比例使用美元购买喜马拉雅美元积分来为其账户充值。」\n3 如果我们缩小画面直接看第二条，在「喜马拉雅币（Himalaya Coin）上线」下方。你理解喜马拉雅币就是 HCN 吗？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：那里写着私募参与者的注册期截止。「私募参与者可购买上限为其分配额度的 HCN 积分」？\n6 霍顿（MR. HORTON）检察官：法官阁下，我们可以花点时间与辩方律师商议一下吗？\n7 法官：可以。\n8 （律师商议）\n9 席里克律师：谢谢法官阁下。\n10 问：然后我们看箭头三，上面写着：「喜马拉雅交易所及喜马拉雅支付应用程序全面上线。」下方写着：\n11 「会员可开始通过其在喜马拉雅交易所的账户交易 HDO、HCN 及其他加密资产积分。喜马拉雅交易所面向公众开放注册和交易。喜马拉雅支付应用程序将使会员能够开始在全球范围内收付款项。」再次确认，这描述的是 H pay 应用程序的预期推广上线吗？\n12 霍顿检察官：法官阁下，我们可以到法官席前吗？有一点意见。\n13 法官：好的。\n14 （续见下页）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 （在法官席边）\n2 霍顿检察官：法官阁下会记得，在一周前罗伯茨（Mr. Robert）先生作证期间，辩方提出这份白皮书的目的曾遭到异议，法庭当时裁定，不能为了证明其内容的真实性而采纳该文件。他们可以使用白皮书来询问非传闻性的问题，我们对待罗伯茨先生和布朗先生一样，可以就该文件询问非传闻问题，但不能用它向陪审团变相主张某事属实。我向席里克律师表示，我们预料到在他的提问中，由于大部分是在宣读文件而不是提问，使用该文件的方式正在滑向我们所理解的法庭上周裁定所排除的范围。我们认为，一再与该证人一起宣读该文件逾越了法庭设定的界限。\n3 法官：所以你是在请求作出限制性指示吗？\n4 霍顿检察官：是的。\n5 席里克律师：我们提出该文件并非出于传闻目的。我们提出它仅仅是为了证明该陈述确实被发表过这一事实。这与——与实质重要性直接相关，因为我们将辩论称，这是对系统实际运行方式的披露。政府方将辩称，声称这些代币是加密资产在某种程度上具有误导性，而我们有权提出该证据。\n6 再次说明，这是出于非传闻目的，以表明这确实被陈述过，并且进行了披露。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 法官：你的意思是该文件没有将该资产描述为加密资产？\n2 席里克律师：这一陈述属实。但不仅如此，法官阁下，是的。\n3 法官：但你并非试图以证明其内容真实性为目的提出它？\n4 席里克律师：我认为我们不需要为了证明其真实性而提出它。陈述预期事件、即将发生的事件的陈述，提出它们同样仅仅是为了证明它们已被披露这一事实。\n5 施罗夫（MS. SHROFF）律师：或者陈述已被作出。\n6 席里克律师：这也很相关，因为他们显然会辩称郭（Guo）先生通过一系列其他人意图通过宣称其为加密资产而在其并非加密资产的情况下误导大众，因此我们有权引入此内容以证明不存在任何欺诈意图。\n7 霍顿检察官：并没有提出类似「布朗先生，这些内容是否确实被说过」「布朗先生，这些内容对你有何影响」此类用于非传闻目的的问题。该文件已作为证据进入记录。它是上周采纳的，一周前在作出了限制性指示的情况下采纳的，审判中发生了很多事情。我们认为，鉴于在相似证人身上就同一文件花费了大量时间，再次提醒陪审团应当如何看待该文件是恰当的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 法官：我会这么做。\n2 席里克律师：法官阁下，出于效率考虑，我将继续审查后续的白皮书，希望能非常迅速，但还有三份，我会尽量快速涵盖它们。\n3 法官：迅速。\n4 （续见下页）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 （在公开法庭；陪审团在场）\n2 法官：陪审团成员们，我希望你们明白，提出本文件并非为了证明其内容的真实性。提出本文件仅仅是为了证明它存在以及这些陈述曾被作出这一事实。\n3 席里克律师继续询问：\n4 问：我忘记刚才讲到哪里了。我想我们之前讲到描述喜马拉雅支付上线的第二阶段。\n5 我的问题是，布朗先生，我刚才读得准确吗？\n6 答：准确。\n7 问：而且你部分是这份文件的作者，对吧？\n8 答：部分参与。\n9 问：我们翻到第 9901 页。如果我可以请你注意本页最后一段，以「In addition」（此外）开头的那一段。\n10 上面写着：「此外，在喜马拉雅支付应用程序上线后，会员将能够使用 HDO 积分向可通过喜马拉雅支付应用程序接受商品和服务付款的商户进行付款，并将 HDO 积分从其喜马拉雅支付账户转账至其他会员的喜马拉雅支付账户。当按计划完成向以太坊（Ethereum）与 Quorum 混合区块链平台的基础设施升级后，我们相信喜马拉雅支付的推出将相比单纯的产品提供显著优势，并代表一种高度可扩展的解决方案。」\n11 我读得正确吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：正确。\n2 问：请翻到第 9903 页。\n3 顶端第一段写道：「在第三阶段推广上线开始后，会员将能够提出请求，将其喜马拉雅交易所账户中的积分兑换为相应的加密资产，经喜马拉雅交易所批准后，该资产将被转移至会员的外部钱包地址。」\n4 我读得正确吗？\n5 答：是的。\n6 问：现在，作为这份 2021年4月 HDO 白皮书的共同作者，你在作出这些陈述时是否相信它们是真实的？其中有任何不正确之处吗？\n7 答：没有。\n8 问：我们来看——\n9 法官：刚才提了两个问题。第一个问题是，你是否认为该陈述是真实的，因此他需要回答这两个问题。\n10 席里克律师：我相信他回答了第二个问题，法官阁下。\n11 法官：我不知道他是否两个问题都回答了，我希望他两个问题都回答。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 施里克先生（MR. SCHIRICK）：我操之过急了。\n2 问：问题是，你当时是否相信我们刚才读到的内容\n3 是真实的？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：里面没有任何不正确的地方，对吧？\n6 答：没有任何不正确。\n7 问：好的。谢谢你。现在，能否请调出\n8 标为 GXAS-13 的证据。这只是提供给证人、\n9 法庭和各方当事人的。\n10 布朗先生（Mr. Brown），你认得这份文件吗？\n11 答：认得。\n12 问：这是 2021 年 4 月的喜马拉雅币（Himalaya Coin HCN）白皮书的\n13 副本吗？\n14 答：看起来是的。\n15 施里克先生：法官阁下，我们提请将本文件或\n16 提交本文件作为证据，这与法庭\n17 先前的指示一致。\n18 法庭（THE COURT）：有异议吗？\n19 霍顿先生（MR. HORTON）：只要针对该文件的性质作出类似的\n20 指示，就没有异议。\n21 法庭：那么你有多少份这类类似的文件？\n22 施里克先生：包括这份在内还有三份。\n23 法庭：那么我刚才给出的指示是，\n24 提出这些文件并非为了证明其内容的真实性，而是\n25 仅仅为了证明它们存在的事实。就以此为准。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法院速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 这适用于总共四份文件。\n2 施里克先生：我们现在看的是第二份。现在\n3 能否向陪审团出示，法官阁下。\n4 法庭：请继续。准予采纳。\n5 （政府方物证 AS-13 已采纳为证据）\n6 施里克先生继续询问：\n7 问：布朗先生，你也参与了合著这篇论文，\n8 对吧？\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：能否请翻到第 7 页。只想请你\n11 注意以“参与”开头的第二段。\n12 上面写着：“喜马拉雅币发行的参与仅\n13 面向喜马拉雅交易所（Himalaya Exchange）的特定会员开放，该交易所是一家\n14 新的数字资产交易所，是我们创建新的数字金融系统这一使命的\n15 核心所在。喜马拉雅交易所及\n16 相关应用和基础设施的运营\n17 将通过使用‘信用积分’（credits）来促进。系统内的\n18 信用积分将对应特定类型的\n19 加密资产。”\n20 我读得对吗？\n21 答：对的。\n22 问：现在，如果我们翻到同一页倒数第二段，\n23 以“喜马拉雅生态系统”开头的那一段。\n24 上面写着：“喜马拉雅生态系统（Himalaya Ecosystem）正在通过\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 与各企业的合作进行开发，预计这些企业将\n2 提供对其产品和服务的访问途径。喜马拉雅生态系统的\n3 创建和发展旨在\n4 支持 HCN 及 HCN 信用积分的商业价值主张，\n5 激励采用和使用。”\n6 我读得对吗？\n7 答：对的。\n8 问：请翻到第 9 页。你可以看到这\n9 与我们刚才看的图表、即前一份文件\n10 大体相似？\n11 答：对。\n12 问：如果我们能就此达成一致，就可以免去大家\n13 阅读它的麻烦。如果翻到第 11 页，聚焦于最后一段，\n14 并且只看最后一段的最后一句话，\n15 开头是：“当按计划将基础设施升级为以太坊和 Quorum 混合\n16 区块链平台完成后，\n17 我们相信 Himalaya pay 应用程序将比同类产品提供显著的优势，\n18 并代表一种高度可扩展的\n19 解决方案。”这是否与 HDO 2021 年 4 月白皮书相同？\n20 答：看起来相似。\n21 问：现在，同样的问题，布朗先生，当你协助合著\n22 这份文件时，你相信这份文件中陈述的\n23 一切都是准确的；是这样吗？\n24 答：我不确定那是对的，不。\n25 问：这份文件中有什么内容与你之前看过的\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 文件不同？\n2 答：所以刚才的问题是，这份文件是否与我们\n3 刚刚看的那份相同？\n4 问：不。问题是，你合著这份文件时，\n5 是否相信这份文件是准确的？\n6 答：所有这些措辞都不是我写的。\n7 问：我的问题不一样。在你合著\n8 这份文件时，你是否相信本文件中的陈述是\n9 准确的？\n10 霍顿先生：反对，歪曲了他的\n11 证词。\n12 施里克先生：我不认为我歪曲了他的\n13 证词。\n14 霍顿先生：关于合著的说法。\n15 法庭：你顺带加入了“在他合著时”。\n16 他说了他没有合著，因此问题必须限制在：“在\n17 当时，你是否相信本文件所写的内容是\n18 真实的。”\n19 施里克先生：法官阁下，恕我直言，我认为他\n20 确实作证说他合著了这份文件。\n21 法庭：但这一部分，我以为他说了这\n22 不正确。\n23 施里克先生：他说是某些措辞。\n24 法庭：我们现在看的这句话中的某一部分是你写的吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 证人（THE WITNESS）：不是我写的。\n2 施里克先生：法官阁下，我们是否可以进行简短的\n3 边谈（sidebar）。\n4 法庭：好的。\n5 （续下页）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 （在法官席边）\n2 施里克先生：法官阁下，坦率地说，法官阁下，我本想\n3 更有效率一些，找到一种方法把这个出示\n4 给证人看，并询问某些陈述在当时是否准确。\n5 如果我不能用这种方式做，我可能不得不采取\n6 较慢的方式，显然为了大家的利益我本来不想这么做。\n7 芬克尔先生（MR. FINKEL）：这是威胁吗？\n8 施里克先生：不，我只是想坦诚说明。我可以\n9 迅速过一遍我想强调的部分。\n10 我不需要他确认所有事情。我只需要他确认\n11 某些问题。\n12 法庭：那里有一个问题，即他当时是否\n13 相信该部分的那些陈述是\n14 真实的。\n15 施里克先生：我想我问了他——我也许记错了——我\n16 以为我问的是整份文件。我认为\n17 这就是我们遇到的问题——他会说，他\n18 不负责整份文件，所以我接下来就必须\n19 逐段进行。我愿意听取建议。我不确定——\n20 法庭：你用了“整份文件”这几个字吗？\n21 施里克先生：我说了“本文件中的内容，你是否\n22 相信本文件中的内容是准确的。你是否认为\n23 这份文件是由……合著的”。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 法庭：他说是的？\n2 施里克先生：他说他不负责\n3 其中的部分内容。\n4 霍顿先生：这是事实。确实如此。这正是\n5 他所说的。他没有写出示给他的\n6 某些部分。\n7 施里克先生：注意点。他没说出示给他的那些部分。\n8 我问的是整份文件。\n9 霍顿先生：我想你出示了一个摘录给他，他\n10 说了“不是我写的”。他说了“不是我写的”。\n11 施里克先生：我们可以让速记员回读记录。\n12 （速记记录已宣读）\n13 法庭：回到正式记录。他正在否认\n14 至少其中一部分，以另一种方式定性是不恰当的。\n15 施里克先生：我可以逐段处理，并向他\n16 逐句发问，这确实是我想做的。\n17 再次说明，法官阁下，我原本是想节省时间。\n18 芬克尔先生：我认为接下来会出现的情况是，他所著的\n19 文件，他不认为全部都是他著述的。如果他想问：你是否相信这份文件中的\n20 一切都是准确的，我想他可以问这个问题。\n21 我不知道。布朗先生需要过目审查。我们不能\n22 为了效率，就判定证人应当直接认可辩方希望他\n23 认可的内容。我认为那\n24 不合适。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 施里克先生：没有人暗示这一点。我的意思是，我将\n2 不得不勉强回过头来逐段进行，因为我认为\n3 逐段进行结果会有所不同。他说他没有完成\n4 整个文件。\n5 法庭：我不知道还有什么其他办法。\n6 （续下页）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 （在法庭公开审理中；陪审团在场）\n2 施里克先生继续询问：\n3 问：能否请翻回到第 9 页。事实上，抱歉。\n4 我们改看第 10 页。\n5 现在，布朗先生，能否请你关注从顶部往下的\n6 第三段，以“信用积分”开头的那一段。你看到了吗？\n7 答：是的，我看到了。\n8 问：上面写着：“信用积分只能在喜马拉雅生态系统内的\n9 喜马拉雅交易所使用，代表\n10 参与喜马拉雅交易所交易的权利，并且\n11 不附带任何要求将其兑换为法定货币或\n12 加密资产的权利。会员可以向喜马拉雅\n13 交易所提出请求，兑换其账户中的信用积分，并\n14 接收相应加密资产转移至其\n15 外部钱包地址。”\n16 我读得准确吗？\n17 答：我相信你读得准确。\n18 问：现在如果我们翻到第 7 页第二段。我们\n19 刚才读过这个。“喜马拉雅币发行的参与\n20 仅面向喜马拉雅交易所的特定会员开放，\n21 该交易所是一家新的数字资产交易所，是我们创建\n22 新的数字金融系统这一使命的核心所在，\n23 喜马拉雅交易所，喜马拉雅交易所及\n24 相关应用和基础设施的运营将\n25 通过使用信用积分来促进。系统内的信用积分\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 将对应特定类型的加密资产。”\n2 我读得对吗？\n3 答：对的。\n4 问：在 2021 年 4 月写下这段内容时，你是否\n5 相信这是对信用积分系统运作的\n6 准确陈述？\n7 答：是的。\n8 问：能否请翻到同一份文件的倒数\n9 第二段，以“喜马拉雅生态系统”开头的那一段。\n10 这里写着：“喜马拉雅生态系统正在通过\n11 与各企业的合作进行开发，预计这些企业将提供\n12 对其产品和服务的访问途径。喜马拉雅生态系统的\n13 创建和发展旨在支持\n14 HCN 及 HCN 信用积分的商业价值主张，\n15 激励采用和使用。”\n16 我读得对吗？\n17 答：是的，对的。\n18 问：鉴于这是一份关于未来意向的陈述，\n19 在 2021 年 4 月作出该陈述时，你是否\n20 相信——\n21 霍顿先生：法官阁下，反对证词\n22 包含法律结论。\n23 施里克先生：我很乐意分段进行。\n24 霍顿先生：这与证词的篇幅无关。关键在于\n25 这属于证词陈述。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 法庭：不要向他询问法律结论。他\n2 不是律师。\n3 霍顿先生：异议在于辩护律师正在陈述\n4 法律结论并就此作证，甚至都不是在提问。\n5 法庭：而且，施里克先生，你不得陈述\n6 法律结论。\n7 施里克先生继续询问：\n8 问：问题是，关于“生态系统正在开发中”，\n9 你的理解是什么？\n10 答：我的理解是生态系统正在构建完善中。\n11 问：对。而且它正在进行中，对吧？\n12 答：根据字面表述，是的。\n13 问：正如你和我之前在午休前讨论过的那样，\n14 它实际上确实正在推进中，对吧？\n15 答：是的。\n16 问：那么这是对当时 2021 年 4 月正在进行的工作的\n17 准确陈述吗？\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：现在，能否请翻到政府方物证 AS-12。\n20 布朗先生，你认得这份文件吗？\n21 答：认得。\n22 问：这是什么？\n23 答：这是喜马拉雅币的白皮书。\n24 问：这份文件上的日期是什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：那应该是2022年1月。\n2 问：您是这份白皮书的合著者吗？\n3 答：我想说在那个时候，我基本上已经把笔交给\n4 律师们了。\n5 问：那么您是否以任何方式参与了起草工作？\n6 HORTON 先生（霍顿律师）：已经问过并回答过了。\n7 SCHIRICK 先生（希里克律师）：这是个不同的问题。\n8 法庭（THE COURT）：异议不成立。你可以回答。\n9 答：我必须看到整份文件才能对此发表意见。\n10 问：好的。我们很乐意先简要翻阅一下。如果对您有所\n11 帮助的话，我很乐意让您关注某一特定页面？\n12 答：如果有关于 Quorum 和以太坊（ethereum）生态系统的页面，\n13 那就是我写的唯一内容了。\n14 问：如果您不介意的话，让我们看一下第八页。在该页的\n15 中间部分，以“喜马拉雅交易所旨在”开头的句子。\n16 上面写着：“喜马拉雅交易所（Himalaya Exchange）旨在\n17 提供高水平的流动性以及在平台上交易的积分和\n18 其他加密资产。”您看到了吗？\n19 答：看到了。\n20 问：而且这份文件在2022年1月依然将\n21 该交易所的系统描述为一个基于积分的系统，对吗？\n22 HORTON 先生：法官阁下，我不认为这份文件\n23 已作为证据提出。我不认为它已被动议采纳。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法院速记服务公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 法庭：因此需要先确立证据基础。\n2 问：您认得这份文件吗？\n3 HORTON 先生：澄清一下，鉴于这是类似的文件，在适用相同指示的前提下\n4 我们没有异议。\n5 法庭：那么你是否已动议将其作为证据采纳？\n6 SCHIRICK 先生：是的，法官阁下。\n7 法庭：那么予以采纳。\n8 （政府方证物 AS-12 被采纳为证据）\n9 法庭：对该项证物有异议吗？\n10 HORTON 先生：没有异议，鉴于该文件的实质相似性，\n11 请求法庭作出指示。\n12 法庭：你可以继续。\n13 SCHIRICK 先生：如果尚未向陪审团出示，\n14 我们可以向陪审团出示吗。\n15 问：我的问题是，在2022年1月这个时间点，\n16 白皮书仍然将交易所运行所依据的系统\n17 描述为一个积分系统，对吗？\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：希望这是最后一份，如果我们可以再次翻到政府方证物 AS-18，\n20 供法庭、证人和各方查阅。\n21 Brown 先生（布朗先生），您认得这份文件吗？\n22 答：认得。\n23 问：您是否认出这是2022年1月关于\n24 Himalaya Dollar HDO（喜马拉雅美元 HDO）的白皮书？\n25 答：是的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 SCHIRICK 先生：我们动议将这份文件 AS-18 作为证据\n2 予以采纳。\n3 HORTON 先生：没有异议。\n4 法庭：予以采纳。\n5 HORTON 先生：抱歉。在受相同限制的前提下\n6 没有异议。\n7 法庭：明白了。\n8 （政府方证物 AS-18 被采纳为证据）\n9 SCHIRICK 先生继续发问：\n10 问：如果我们可以迅速翻到第八页自顶部起第三段，\n11 开头为：“喜马拉雅交易所的会员将\n12 能够通过在喜马拉雅交易所购买 HDO 积分来\n13 参与 Himalaya Dollar 的发行。”\n14 您看到了吗？\n15 答：是的，看到了。\n16 问：在2022年1月这个时间点，当这份文件被放上——撤回。\n17 您之前作证称白皮书被放在了\n18 喜马拉雅交易所的网站上，对吗？\n19 答：是的。\n20 问：这也适用于我们在过去几分钟内看过的\n21 所有白皮书，对吗？\n22 答：对此我不太确定。\n23 问：但将最终版白皮书放在喜马拉雅交易所\n24 网站上是一种常规做法，对吗？\n25 答：那确实是常规做法。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：那是常规做法。\n2 问：而且您没有任何理由认为这些文件没有\n3 按照该惯例发布到网站上，对吗？\n4 HORTON 先生：反对，已经问过并回答过了。\n5 法庭：异议成立。\n6 问：您是否认为将某物发布到——撤回。\n7 这样说是否准确：我们在证据 GXAS-18 中刚刚审阅的\n8 2022年1月白皮书，继续将喜马拉雅交易所系统\n9 描述为一个基于积分的系统？\n10 答：这样说是准确的，律师。\n11 问：我们能否翻到第11页，那里的最后一段，\n12 放大那一部分。\n13 而且我相信，Brown 先生，您之前作证称，\n14 您记得在这个时间点您在起草白皮书中的角色\n15 主要是集中在对 Quorum 的描述上；\n16 这样说准确吗？\n17 答：是的，准确。\n18 问：那我来读一下这一段。上面写着：“此外，\n19 随着 Himalaya pay（喜马拉雅支付）应用程序的推出，会员将\n20 能够使用 HDO 积分向接受通过 Himalaya pay 应用程序支付\n21 商品和服务的商家付款，或将其 Himalaya pay 账户中的 HDO 积分\n22 转账至其他会员的 Himalaya pay 账户。当计划中的\n23 基础设施升级为混合以太坊和 Quorum 区块链平台完成后，\n24 我们相信 Himalaya pay 应用程序将比同类产品\n25 提供显著优势，并代表一种高度可扩展的解决方案。”\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 我读得对吗？\n2 答：你读得对。\n3 问：您是否认出这是该文件中\n4 您作为作者参与撰写的一部分？\n5 答：不，那不是真的。\n6 问：是否存在您认为自己参与撰写的\n7 其他与 Quorum 相关的部分？\n8 答：我相信在之前的白皮书中，有专门针对 Quorum 的\n9 整个章节。\n10 问：而您当时在从事 Quorum 的工作，对吗？\n11 答：嗯，我在撰写围绕 Quorum 的白皮书，是的。\n12 问：在您任职期间，该交易所一直在致力于 Quorum 的工作，对吗？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：这样说是否准确：我们刚刚在作为证据的这份文件\n15 第11页底部读到的这一段，是对该内容发布时\n16 交易所实际情况的准确陈述？\n17 答：是准确的，是的。\n18 问：谢谢。我相信您在直接询问中作证称，\n19 G Coin（G币）和 H Coin（H币）之间没有区别。\n20 您记得吗？\n21 答：记得。\n22 问：您是否曾为 G Coin 撰写过白皮书？\n23 答：我可能参与撰写过一份，是的。\n24 问：是否曾有一份最终定稿？\n25 答：据我所知或依我记忆，没有。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：记得。\n2 问：您是否曾为 G Coin 撰写过白皮书？\n3 答：我可能参与撰写过一份，是的。\n4 问：是否曾有一份最终定稿？\n5 答：据我所知或依我记忆，没有。\n6 问：G Coin 曾经存在过吗？\n7 答：不存在。\n8 问：G Coin 曾经不仅仅是一个概念吗？\n9 答：是的，它是 H Coin 的一个概念。\n10 问：请试着回答我的问题。G Coin 曾经不仅仅\n11 是一个概念吗？\n12 HORTON 先生：已经问过并回答过了。\n13 法庭：异议成立。\n14 SCHIRICK 先生：申请撤销记录（Move to strike），法官阁下。\n15 法庭：这已经问过并回答过了。\n16 SCHIRICK 先生：以答非所问为由申请撤销记录。之前的\n17 回答是答非所问。\n18 HORTON 先生：反对。\n19 法庭：异议成立。\n20 问：当您说 G Coin 和 H Coin 之间没有区别时，\n21 您的意思是 G Coin 的概念后来变成了 H Coin 吗？\n22 答：我不确定这是否完全属实。\n23 问：所以 G Coin 从未被创建出来，对吗？\n24 答：对，它从未被创建出来。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：对。而 H Coin 是您从事的项目，对吗？\n2 答：您能重复一遍吗。\n3 问：H Coin 是您从事的项目，对吗？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：不是 G Coin，只是为了将两者区分开来？\n6 答：在最初的一个月左右，我们把 H Coin 称为 G Coin。\n7 问：所以它是重新命名了？\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：好的。明白了。但 G Coin 从未成为现实，\n10 对吗？\n11 HORTON 先生：已经问过并回答过了。\n12 法庭：异议成立。\n13 问：现在，您在直接询问中作证称，您在交易所的工作\n14 与您加入时的预期不符，对吗？\n15 答：是的。\n16 问：但您明白该交易所试图构建的长期目标\n17 是符合您的预期的，对吗？\n18 HORTON 先生：反对，法官阁下，我们已经讨论过这个问题了。\n19 SCHIRICK 先生：这是关于他的预期。\n20 法庭：你是在问长期目标是否符合什么，他的预期？\n21 SCHIRICK 先生：是的，关于交易所将要\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 构建的内容。\n2 法庭：你可以回答。\n3 答：我没想到它构建出来的会是积分。\n4 问：正如我们讨论过的，从长期来看，它不会是\n5 积分，对吗？\n6 HORTON 先生：反对。\n7 SCHIRICK 先生：我必须能够提出这个问题。\n8 法庭：你可以回答那个问题。\n9 答：是的。\n10 问：所以您没想到它会是一个积分系统，但您也\n11 明白在您看来，它最终将转向一个真正的、\n12 非基于积分的加密系统，对吗？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：所以那本应符合您的预期，对吗？\n15 答：是的。\n16 问：因此问题是，喜马拉雅交易所正在构建的\n17 长期计划符合您的预期？\n18 只是短期计划不一致，对吗？\n19 HORTON 先生：反对，法官阁下。\n20 法庭：这里面包含了很多问题。\n21 问：难道喜马拉雅交易所正在构建的长期计划，\n22 与您加入时对他们将要构建的内容的预期\n23 不是一致的吗？\n24 HORTON 先生：已经问过并回答过了。\n25 法庭：异议成立。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：现在，喜马拉雅交易所的进展花费的时间\n2 比您希望的要长，这让您感到沮丧；这样说准确吗？\n3 答：准确。\n4 问：而且我相信您在直接询问中作证称，您未被允许\n5 访问交易所的部分交易数据；是这样吗？\n6 答：我未被允许访问任何数据。\n7 问：您能回答我的问题吗。\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：交易数据？\n10 答：交易数据。\n11 问：正如您在直接询问中所作证的，您从未向 William Je（余建明）请求\n12 访问该交易数据，对吗？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：而且如您所说，Je 先生并没有真正管理这部分，对吗？\n15 答：您能再问一次那个问题吗。\n16 问：当然。我相信您在直接询问中作证称，Je 先生\n17 并没有真正管理交易数据。他并不是交易数据的真正\n18 所有人，对吗？\n19 答：这样说准确。那是首席信息安全官（CISO）。\n20 答：Azeem。\n21 问：负责信息与安全的人？\n22 答：是的。\n23 问：而且在您看来，他有点高度安全防范意识，对吗？\n24 答：是的。\n25 问：您并不认为 Je 先生在交易数据方面对您有所隐瞒，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：对。\n2 答：Azeem。\n3 问：负责信息与安全的人？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：而且在您看来，他有点高度安全防范意识，对吗？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：您并不认为 Je 先生在交易数据方面对您有所隐瞒，\n8 对吗，因为 Azeem 先生具有极高的安全防范意识？\n9 答：我觉得奇怪的是我连正在发生的事情都不能看一眼。\n10 问：您是否曾听到 Je 先生说您，Brown 先生，不能看？\n11 HORTON 先生：反对，要求提供传闻证据。\n12 问：据您了解，Je 先生是否曾告诉过 Azeem 先生\n13 不要向您展示数据？\n14 法庭：你可以回答。\n15 答：您能再重复一次吗。\n16 问：据您了解，Je 先生是否曾告诉 Azeem 不要\n17 向您展示数据？\n18 他从未告诉过 Azeem 先生不要向您展示数据，\n19 对吗？\n20 HORTON 先生：反对，两个问题。\n21 法庭：请直接问主要问题。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：据你所知，Je（余建明）先生从未告诉过 Azeem 先生不要给你看\n2 这些数据，对吗？\n3 答：是的。\n4 问：现在，你之前作证说到了某个时候你被\n5 提升为首席执行官（CEO）？\n6 答：没错。\n7 问：这大约是在2021年春季？\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：那是在一次利益相关者会议上？\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：交易所（Exchange）所有部门的负责人都\n12 在场吗？\n13 答：都在场。\n14 问：就是我们之前谈到的属于高管团队的那些人，\n15 对吗？\n16 答：是的，没错。\n17 问：而且你的印象是，那个高管团队里还有其他人\n18 想要那个 CEO 的职位，对吗？\n19 答：是的，没错。\n20 问：你的印象是他们可能在缠着\n21 Je 先生想拿到那个 CEO 职位，对吗？\n22 答：我不太确定用“缠着”这个词是否准确。他们可能\n23 有点过于热切。\n24 问：明白了。在此之前并没有 CEO 的职位，\n25 对吧，实际上就是 Je 先生在控制？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：没错，律师。\n2 问：而且你认为你之所以当上 CEO，是因为你精通\n3 区块链领域的术语，对吗？\n4 答：不。不是。\n5 问：你是否记得曾告诉政府方，你认为\n6 你之所以被任命为 CEO，部分原因是你精通\n7 区块链领域？\n8 答：不记得。我记得我说过 Je 先生对我\n9 在美国这里做的一些事情印象深刻，那是\n10 原因之一。\n11 问：并且你也明白，在你看来他提拔你\n12 为 CEO 的原因之一是因为如果有必要你愿意\n13 搬迁？\n14 答：这么说很合理。\n15 问：在一定限度内。我们理解有些事情\n16 是不可逾越的。\n17 答：合理。\n18 问：你被任命为 CEO 是有实际原因的，对吧？\n19 那就是两个原因，对吧？\n20 答：那是其中两个。\n21 问：而你现在作证说你并不真正觉得自己是当 CEO\n22 的料？\n23 答：确实如此。\n24 问：目前你自己开了一家公司，对吗？\n25 答：是的，一家咨询公司。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：你是那家公司的 CEO？\n2 答：那是一家一人公司，所以我不太确定。很多人\n3 喜欢说自己是一人公司的 CEO。我倒不真去\n4 吹嘘那个。\n5 问：没有其他负责人了吗？\n6 答：嗯，根本没有人去管理什么。\n7 问：在那期间，你在喜马拉雅交易所（Himalaya Exchange）\n8 的整个期间，你是否从未与 Guo（郭文贵）先生发生过任何实质性的\n9 互动，这是真的吗？\n10 答：是真的。\n11 问：你与他唯一的互动就是在他在一次直播中\n12 向你敬酒的时候，对吗？\n13 答：是真的。\n14 问：除此以外，你从来没有跟郭先生说过话？\n15 答：在我的记忆中没有。\n16 问：而且他从来没有给过你任何管理方面的指示，\n17 对吧。\n18 答：没有。\n19 问：那么，后来是否到了创建 HCN 和\n20 HDO 的智能合约的时候？\n21 答：有的。\n22 问：那些合约被发布到了区块链上，对吧？\n23 答：是的，它们应该是发布了。\n24 问：由于被发布到了区块链上，它们是公开可供\n25 查看的，对吧？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：你能重复一下吗。\n2 问：HCN 和 HDO 的智能合约是否因为在区块链上而\n3 公开可供查看？\n4 答：我不确定这是否准确。我认为当时智能合约\n5 工作正在测试中。\n6 问：我没有限定时间。我的问题是——\n7 答：好吧，在我任期内的任何时候。\n8 问：你熟悉 Ether scan（以太坊区块链浏览器）吗？\n9 答：熟悉。\n10 问：你可以使用 Ether scan 来检查智能合约\n11 是否在区块链上？\n12 答：可以。\n13 问：你曾经使用过 Ether scan 来检查 HCN 或\n14 HDO 的智能合约是否在区块链上吗？\n15 答：我没有。\n16 问：现在，喜马拉雅让软件代码专家对这些智能合约进行了\n17 审计，对吧？\n18 答：是的，如果你把 Certek 称为专家的话。\n19 问：难道他们不是——Certek 难道不是公认的软件安全\n20 专家吗？\n21 答：已经不再是了。\n22 问：在当时呢？\n23 答：在当时由于 FTX 崩溃事件，也是存疑的。\n24 问：喜马拉雅实际上是否聘请了 Certek 来审计\n25 HCN 和 HDO 的智能合约？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：他们聘请了。\n2 问：事实上 Certek 对 HCN 和 HDO 的智能\n3 合约提出了修改建议，对吧？\n4 答：我认为是的。我没有直接参与其中。\n5 问：你是否知晓 HCN 和 HDO 的那些\n6 智能合约是可升级的？\n7 答：我对此不知情，但是通过 solidity（Solidity 编程语言）进行\n8 升级的可能性是存在的。\n9 问：对，作为一种客观——\n10 答：它本质上就是。\n11 问：它们本质上是可升级的？\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：现在，我只想简要谈谈交易所的 KYC\n14 流程。\n15 KYC 代表什么？\n16 答：了解你的客户（Know Your Customer）。\n17 问：在你看来，交易所客户的准入入驻（on-boarding）\n18 是一件相当耗时的事情？\n19 答：非常费劲。\n20 问：非常费劲。我想客户为了注册必须填写\n21 大约16个问题？\n22 答：是的。\n23 问：你是否记得告诉过政府方，在你看来大多数人\n24 在填写这16个字段中的4个以上时就遇到了困难？\n25 答：是的，那是行业共识，即在4个\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6LBGUO5 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 字段之后，注册人数就会开始流失。\n2 问：而且即使有人设法填写了所有的\n3 字段，他们仍然必须通过 Bitgo 的入驻流程，\n4 对吧？\n5 HORTON 先生：法官阁下，我们反对这一系列的\n6 提问，这超出了关于 KYC 和入驻的主询问范围。\n7 SCHIRICK 先生：法官阁下，我很乐意——\n8 法庭：我不记得有任何关于客户\n9 注册的内容，所以这超出了范围。\n10 SCHIRICK 先生：法官阁下，如果有需要，我很乐意传唤他作为我\n11 自己的证人。这涉及交易所的总体运营，\n12 考虑到布朗先生的主询问作证，我认为这完全在\n13 允许范围内。\n14 （接下页）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 法庭：好的。\n2 SCHIRICK 先生：谢谢。\n3 由 SCHIRICK 先生继续询问：\n4 问：那么问题是，即使有人填完了所有\n5 字段，全部16个字段，他们仍然必须通过 Bitgo 的\n6 入驻流程，对吧？\n7 答：我不记得 Bitgo 是否属于那16个字段的一部分，但\n8 Bitgo 参与了其中，是的。\n9 问：好的。所以无论他们是属于那16个的一部分还是在那\n10 16个之后，他们都以某种方式参与了该流程。\n11 答：没错。\n12 问：好的。你是否记得 Bitgo 的入驻流程\n13 要求客户拍照？\n14 答：是的，我记得。\n15 问：好的。事实证明，很多持有外国身份证件的人在\n16 给自己的身份证件拍照时遇到了困难，对吧？\n17 答：没错。\n18 问：我说的外国是指非美国身份证件，对吧？\n19 答：准确。\n20 问：这让这项技术陷入了混乱，对吧？\n21 答：是的。\n22 问：好的。并且是因为该技术尤其不擅长处理\n23 中文字符，对吧？\n24 答：没错。\n25 问：好的。而且还因为该软件是针对\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 名在前、姓在后的格式设计的，而至少在中国，\n2 这通常是颠倒过来的。\n3 答：完全正确。\n4 问：由于这个费劲的——借用你的\n5 说法——入驻流程，客户有时要花上一个月\n6 甚至更长时间才能办完手续，对吧？\n7 答：确实如此。\n8 问：好的。而你认为本来应该花类似\n9 24到48小时的时间，对吧？\n10 答：20分钟。\n11 问：好吧。甚至更短。\n12 而且你担心人们对此感到\n13 沮丧挫败，对吧？\n14 答：显而易见。\n15 问：好的。有电话打到24小时全天候中英文\n16 热线反映这个问题，对吧？\n17 答：热线被打爆了。\n18 问：好的。之所以有所有这些\n19 审查，原因之一是因为交易所按地域限制了用户，\n20 对吧？\n21 答：你能重复一下吗。\n22 问：好的。当然可以。我们刚才讨论的之所以有这整个\n23 流程，原因之一是因为\n24 交易所限制了来自某些地域的入驻用户。\n25 答：是的，确实如此。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：好的。美国就是这些地域之一，对吧？\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：加拿大也是，对吧？\n4 答：也是，是的。\n5 问：好的。你是否记得曾告诉政府方，\n6 你认为交易所在这些合规程序上的花费\n7 除了 IT 以外比任何其他方面都要多？\n8 答：我不记得说过那句话，不记得。\n9 问：好的。也许我们可以很快帮你回忆一下。\n10 实际上，撤回该问题。你是否记得在与政府方的\n11 一次会面中告诉他们，\n12 你认为交易所的人在合规方面过于苛刻了？\n13 答：我记得。\n14 问：好的。你的观点是存在过度的合规，\n15 对吧？\n16 答：是的。\n17 问：那是过分的。\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：而且你记得告诉过政府方，你认为\n20 交易所本来可以接纳更多客户的。\n21 答：我认为确实如此。\n22 问：好的。现在我们简要谈谈营销。\n23 交易所——撤回。\n24 在你看来，交易所在对其自身服务和产品\n25 进行营销时过于保守了，\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 对吧？\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：而且你觉得是律师在做关于营销的\n4 决定，对吧？\n5 答：是的。\n6 HORTON 先生：反对。\n7 问：对。他们本来可以做多得多的营销\n8 但却没有做，对吧？\n9 答：他们本来可以做一些营销的，但没有做。\n10 问：对。你觉得他们几乎什么都没做。\n11 答：是的。\n12 问：好的。交易所特别注意不\n13 让——撤回。抱歉。\n14 在你周三的会议期间（我认为那些是\n15 合规会议），有关于客户\n16 入驻的讨论，对吧？\n17 答：是的。\n18 问：在委员会——对不起。撤回。\n19 在那些会议上，合规人员会评估\n20 特定客户入驻的风险，对吧？\n21 答：我不确定这是否准确。\n22 问：好的。那么，该委员会在入驻方面做了什么，或者——\n23 撤回。\n24 该委员会在评估特定客户的风险方面\n25 做了什么？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：有一个叫作监管映射（regulatory mapping）的流程。\n2 问：嗯。\n3 答：那就是我们所做的事情。\n4 问：好的。你们会为进行监管映射的\n5 客户指定一个风险评分？\n6 答：是的，是的。\n7 问：而且在你看来，这个流程是能够\n8 监控谁在买入和卖出的好方法？\n9 答：你能再重复一遍吗。\n10 问：在你看来，这个风险评分和监管映射\n11 流程是让交易所追踪谁在\n12 买入和卖出的好方法。\n13 答：不，不是。我看不出这二者之间有什么关联。\n14 问：那么，如果只有经批准的——撤回。\n15 只有经批准的客户才能在交易所上买入和卖出，\n16 对吧？\n17 答：是的。\n18 问：好的。因此为了进入交易所，这个\n19 监管映射流程旨在只允许受信赖的\n20 客户进入交易所，对吧？\n21 答：是的，如果你是指风险评分的话，是的。有某些——\n22 是的。\n23 问：对。而且再次，那是另外一部分，我认为——如果我\n24 说错了你纠正我——在你看来那有点过于\n25 限制性了，对吧？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。它有缺陷。\n2 问：好的。那么在 2022 年夏季和秋季，你是否记得\n3 该交易所的新注册人数开始出现下降？\n4 答：我确实记得。\n5 问：好的。在你看来，这部分是由于缺乏\n6 任何营销活动所致，对吗？\n7 答：这么说很合理。\n8 问：以及新用户入驻流程上的问题，对吗？\n9 答：到那个时候，入驻流程的问题已经解决了。\n10 问：但是合规要求过严，对吗？\n11 答：不。那方面也已经有所精简，达到了\n12 达到——达到了我能接受的程度。\n13 问：好的。所以在你看来，这实际上归结为交易所\n14 没有做任何营销活动；这是导致\n15 下降的原因。\n16 答：不，那也并不完全属实。\n17 问：那是部分属实吗？\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：好的。另一个原因是否可以说是加密货币市场\n20 当时正经历收缩？\n21 答：那是其中一小部分原因，是的。\n22 问：好的。你在主询问中作证谈到了 2021 年 11 月\n23 HCN 的上线，对吗？\n24 答：是的。\n25 问：以及你在其中的角色，对吗；你在上线中的角色？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：那就是我们看过的那个视频，对吗？\n3 答：是的，是的。\n4 问：而且你作证说你不喜欢公开发言，\n5 对吗？\n6 答：非常害怕。\n7 问：对。你今天到目前为止表现得很好。\n8 但你是否同意，我们所有人的工作中都有一些我们\n9 不喜欢的地方；可以这么说吧？\n10 答：不。我认为有少数人热爱自己的工作。\n11 问：好的。大多数人都有工作中不喜欢的地方，\n12 对吗？\n13 HORTON 先生：反对，法官阁下，与本案无关联性。\n14 法庭：反对成立。\n15 问：现在你记得曾告诉政府方，你对 HCN 的上线\n16 花了这么长时间感到相当恼火吗？\n17 答：我不确定我是否用过“恼火”这个词，但如果我用了，那就是的。\n18 问：好的。嗯，我是说，你对这花了\n19 这么长时间并不是特别高兴，对吗？\n20 答：是的。我认为——我认为我们本可以快得多地\n21 推向市场。\n22 问：好的。事实上，Je 先生也很不高兴，对吗？\n23 答：噢，是的。\n24 问：对。对于这个进度，对吗？\n25 答：噢，天哪，他确实很不高兴。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：好的。是的。我明白了。\n2 你理解 Je 先生的重点是让交易所基于\n3 信用积分系统建立并运行起来，然后再继续\n4 对其进行开发，对吗？\n5 答：这么说很合理。\n6 问：那是——抱歉？\n7 答：这么说很合理。\n8 问：这么说很合理，对吗？好的。而且你当时在继续\n9 开发它，特别是致力于 Quorum 私有\n10 区块链的工作，对吗？\n11 答：是的。\n12 SCHIRICK 先生：好的。现在能否请调出\n13 控方证据（GX）3401。\n14 我们不需要播放视频；只要静止画面即可，\n15 谢谢。\n16 我相信这在主询问阶段已被采纳为证据。\n17 问：在等待调出期间，我相信你在主询问中\n18 作证说你认为交易所当时尚未完全准备好\n19 上线，对吗？\n20 答：没错。\n21 问：好的。你是否告诉过 Je 先生你建议\n22 不要上线？\n23 答：我没有。\n24 问：好的。企业在刚上线并在最初几周或几个月里\n25 遭遇困难，这种情况有时是不是也会发生？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 HORTON 先生：反对。\n2 法庭：反对成立。\n3 问：根据你的经验，企业、特别是初创企业\n4 在首次上线时，是否会在最初的几周和几个月里\n5 遭遇困难？\n6 HORTON 先生：同上理由反对。\n7 法庭：反对成立。\n8 问：好的。那么你记得——\n9 SCHIRICK 先生：就保持显示那个画面。抱歉。只要\n10 静止画面。\n11 问：现在你记得曾作证说，你认为你在这个视频中\n12 作了虚假陈述，对吗？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：好的。因为你说 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）——撤回。\n15 你在这个视频中说交易发生在\n16 区块链上，而你认为那是误导性的，对吗？\n17 答：我是这么认为的。\n18 问：好的。你作证说你之所以这么说是因为你\n19 不想扰乱 HCN 的上线，对吗？\n20 答：是的。\n21 问：而且你作证说你当时只是在遵从既定路线，公司的统一口径，对吗？\n22 答：没错。\n23 问：好的。营销部门没有任何人指示你说\n24 区块链将被用于交易，对吗？\n25 答：营销部门没有人告诉我——你能再重复一遍吗。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：没有人告诉我——你能再重复一遍吗。\n2 问：是的。没有人——我相信你作证说在录制这个视频之前\n3 你从营销部门获得了一些指导？\n4 答：是的。\n5 问：好的。所以我的问题是：营销部门没有任何人指示你\n6 说区块链将被用于交易，对吗？\n7 答：没错。\n8 问：对。事实上，我们刚刚看过的所有这些白皮书\n9 都表明它是一个信用积分系统，对吗？\n10 答：对。\n11 问：对。所以能够接入互联网的人都能\n12 查知这一点，对吗？\n13 HORTON 先生：反对。要求证人揣测。\n14 法庭：证人可以回答。\n15 答：你能否再重复一遍。\n16 问：当然。如果一个人能上网并接触到那些白皮书，\n17 他就会知道该交易所使用的是信用积分系统，\n18 而不是区块链，对吗？\n19 HORTON 先生：反对，涉及其他人会知道\n20 什么。\n21 法庭：反对成立。\n22 问：正如我们之前谈到的，白皮书中披露了\n23 该交易所是在信用积分系统上运行的，这难道不是事实吗？\n24 HORTON 先生：法官阁下，正如提问所表明的，我们\n25 已经讨论过这一点了。我们已经谈过了。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 法庭：你可以询问他该文件或\n2 这些文件是否是这么写的。你可以询问他是否相信那些\n3 话是真实的。\n4 问：你之前作证说，我们看过的白皮书\n5 包含了关于交易所使用信用积分系统的\n6 准确陈述，对吗？\n7 HORTON 先生：反对。重复累赘，法官阁下。\n8 法庭：反对成立。你说的是\n9 白皮书的部分内容吗？\n10 SCHIRICK 先生：法官阁下，我指的是仅仅与\n11 HDO 信用积分（HDO Credits）相关的部分，那是我刚才关注的内容。只是询问关于 HDO 信用积分系统。\n12 法庭：那么，你就需要以这种方式来组织\n13 问题。\n14 SCHIRICK 先生：好的。\n15 SCHIRICK 先生继续发问：\n16 问：那么我们之前审查的白皮书准确地\n17 披露了该交易所使用 HDO 信用积分系统，对吗？\n18 HORTON 先生：反对。歪曲了他的\n19 证词。\n20 法庭：那么——\n21 SCHIRICK 先生：我没有歪曲他的证词。我\n22 只是问他是否准确地——\n23 法庭：你是在要求得出法律结论。你\n24 可以问他文件中是否陈述了那些事情；你可以问他\n25 是否相信那些事情是真实的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 是否相信那些事情是真实的。\n2 SCHIRICK 先生：好的。\n3 SCHIRICK 先生继续发问：\n4 问：白皮书中是否陈述了该交易所使用的是 H——一个\n5 信用积分系统？\n6 答：确实陈述了。\n7 问：好的。明确地说，没有人告诉你不能\n8 在上线视频中说交易所使用的是信用积分系统，\n9 对吗？\n10 HORTON 先生：已问过并已回答过。\n11 法庭：反对成立。\n12 SCHIRICK 先生：法官阁下，我认为我刚才问的是另一个\n13 问题。\n14 法庭：好吧。那么你可以回答。请\n15 回答。\n16 答：请您再重复一遍好吗。\n17 SCHIRICK 先生：能否请法庭速记员\n18 宣读记录。\n19 法庭：请读。\n20 SCHIRICK 先生：谢谢。\n21 （宣读记录）\n22 答：那是真的。\n23 问：对。所以是你自己说的，对吗？你所说的话并没有\n24 受到交易所内任何其他人的指示，对吗？\n25 答：没错。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：好的。我们之前谈到过美国境内的用户\n2 是如何被限制使用该交易所的，对吗？\n3 答：是的。\n4 问：实际上，他们是被禁止使用该交易所的，\n5 对吗？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：好的。而对此你不太高兴，对吗？\n8 答：那是真的。这么说很合理。\n9 问：而且你希望能够分享，再次\n10 借用你的话来说，你的劳动成果，对吗，通过\n11 购买一些 HCN？\n12 答：不。我觉得在一家典型的初创企业中，创始人无需\n13 购买就能获得 HCN。\n14 问：好的。那么，抛开使用“购买”这个词不谈。你\n15 期望因你在交易所的工作而获得授予一些代币，\n16 对吗？\n17 答：是的，这么说很合理。\n18 问：对。而因为你一个都没拿到，你感到很沮丧，\n19 对吗？\n20 答：是的，这么说也很合理。\n21 问：好的。你感到沮丧是因为别人确实拿到了一些，\n22 对吗，而你却没有拿到？\n23 答：准确。\n24 问：好的。而且实际上你试图让你岳父注册\n25 以便能够购买一些\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 代币，这难道不是事实吗？\n2 答：是的，是的，我们确实做过这种尝试。\n3 问：好的。这是因为你岳父持有委内瑞拉\n4 身份证件，对吗？\n5 答：他持有一张——持有一张过期的委内瑞拉身份证件。那就是为什么他\n6 无法购买的原因。\n7 问：当然。事实就是这样，对吗？所以你尝试\n8 让他使用那张过期身份证件在交易所注册，\n9 对吗？\n10 答：对。\n11 问：事实上，你遇到了问题，对吗？\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：你遇到问题是因为我们之前谈到的\n14 那个客户身份验证（KYC）流程，对吗？\n15 答：没错。\n16 问：然后你实际上让他拨打了我们谈到过的\n17 24/7 全天候热线电话，对吗？\n18 答：客服热线。\n19 问：客服热线。谢谢。你让他拨打了\n20 客服热线？\n21 答：是的。\n22 问：并试图解决这些问题以便他能够\n23 注册购买 HCN，对吗？\n24 答：是的。\n25 问：最终事实证明，正如你所说，该身份证件\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 已经失效了，对吗？\n2 答：没错。\n3 问：他无法购买；他无法购买它们，对吗？\n4 答：没错。\n5 问：好的。所以是你想购买它们并且你想——\n6 答：不。我不想购买它们。\n7 问：好吧。你想被授予它们，对吗？\n8 答：你能——\n9 问：你之前作证说你期望获得授予 HCN，对吗？\n10 答：授予？\n11 问：授予，也就是给你分配 HCN。\n12 答：噢，是的，是的。\n13 问：对。所以你期望获得授予 HCN，而当那\n14 行不通时，你试图通过你岳父来\n15 购买 HCN。\n16 答：不，那不是——那不是真的。是我岳父想\n17 购买 HCN。\n18 问：噢，好的。是你岳父想购买 HCN。\n19 答：是的。当时价格是 20 美元。我根本不想参与。\n20 问：好的。那么在你期望拥有这些代币并因为\n21 没有拿到而感到恼火的那个时间点上，你不可能\n22 认为这些代币有那么糟糕，对吗？\n23 答：在 20 美元的价格上，它们确实很糟糕。\n24 问：嗯，那是相对而言的，对吗？你是不想花 20 美元\n25 去买它。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：它们的价格被严重高估了。\n2 问：当它们刚上线时，你想要它们，以那个\n3 价格，这么说合理吗？\n4 答：这么说很合理。\n5 问：好的。那当时它们能有多糟糕呢？不可能\n6 有那么糟糕，对吧？\n7 答：不，不糟糕。\n8 问：对。那并不是一个很差的产品，对吧？\n9 答：不，那不是一个差产品。\n10 问：好的。现在我们来谈谈——\n11 SCHIRICK 先生：对不起，法官阁下。请允许\n12 我稍作停顿。\n13 法庭：可以。\n14 SCHIRICK 先生：好的。谢谢。\n15 问：现在，Brown 先生，你记得在主询问中作证谈到过\n16 一个叫做 Hummingbot 的东西吗？\n17 答：记得。\n18 问：好的。我想你曾作证说你是从\n19 David Fallon 那里得知 Hummingbot 的，对吗？\n20 答：没错。\n21 问：而 David Fallon 是 Hamilton 的一名高级管理人员。\n22 答：他是。\n23 问：好的。你作证说该机器人是在交易量低的情况下\n24 使用的，对吗？\n25 答：那是它的使用场景之一。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：对。还有其他的用例，对吗？\n2 答：是的。\n3 问：好的。而 Hummingbot（蜂鸟机器人）是所谓的\n4 自动撮合引擎，对吗？\n5 答：是的。\n6 问：它是一种算法交易工具，对吗？\n7 答：没错。\n8 问：此时此刻你对 Hummingbot 的全部了解，\n9 是否都基于 Fallon 先生（法伦先生）告诉你的内容？\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：好的。而 Hummingbot 实际上只是撮合买方和\n12 卖方，对吧；它就是做这个的？\n13 答：我不——我不确定是否——\n14 问：所以你不确定 Hummingbot 是做什么的。\n15 答：嗯，我不确定这种描述是否准确。\n16 问：你不确定它唯一的用例是否是在低交易量\n17 的情况下，对吗？\n18 答：不，我是不确定它是否撮合买方和卖方。\n19 问：好的。现在我换一个问题。你\n20 不确定 Hummingbot 唯一的用例是在低交易量\n21 的情况下，对吗？\n22 答：对。\n23 问：对。它可能有其他用例。\n24 答：可能有。\n25 问：对。所以 Hummingbot 有可能被用于\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 交易所低交易量情况之外的\n2 其他用途，对吗？\n3 法庭：不要向他提假设性问题。\n4 问：你是否知道 Hummingbot 是所谓的开源\n5 软件？\n6 答：我知道。\n7 问：好的。现在，你此前在主询问中还就 SEC（美国证券交易委员会）的\n8 和解协议作了证。你记得吗？\n9 答：我记得。\n10 问：好的。以及你在交易所的一次会议中\n11 提到了 GTV 的和解协议这一事实，对吗？\n12 答：没错。\n13 问：好的。此时 SEC 的和解协议已经是公开的了，对吗？\n14 答：是的。\n15 问：好的。你还就你在会议上提出这个问题时\n16 某些人的反应作了证，对吗？\n17 答：没错。\n18 问：好的。你特别就法务主管的\n19 反应作了证，对吗？\n20 答：没错。\n21 问：好的。现在说明白点，你只是在推测\n22 她知道什么或不知道什么，对吗？你并不确定。\n23 答：你能重复一下吗？\n24 问：当你作证说出你从她的反应中解读出的内容时，\n25 你是在推测，对吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的，对。\n2 问：是的。你是在推测，对吧？我是说，你不可能知道\n3 她心里在想什么。至少如今心灵感应就是这样，\n4 根本不起作用。\n5 HORTON 先生（霍顿先生）：反对。\n6 法庭：反对无效。\n7 答：是的，是的，我不会读心术。\n8 问：对。好的。而且你作证说你没有就此\n9 询问 William Je（余建明），对吗？\n10 答：对。\n11 问：好的。你还被出示了一份被标记为\n12 GX C405 的文件。\n13 SCHIRICK 先生（希里克先生）：请调出那份文件并——\n14 问：好的。而且你作证说你在某个时候看过了这个视频，对吗？对不起。撤回。是你作证说\n16 你在某个时候看过了这篇文章，对吗？\n17 答：没有。\n18 HORTON 先生：反对。是的，曲解了\n19 证言。\n20 法庭：反对成立。\n21 问：好的。你是否在某个时候看过这场直播？\n22 答：我从没看过直播，没有。\n23 问：你读过一篇总结该直播的文章，对吗？\n24 答：是的。\n25 问：好的。那你读那篇文章的时候，并没有向\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 Je 先生提出这个问题，对吗？\n2 答：直到最近我才看到这篇文章。\n3 问：啊。所以你当时并没有看到这篇文章，对吗？\n4 答：没错。\n5 问：你还在交易所工作期间甚至根本没看过这篇文章，对吗？\n6 答：没错。\n7 问：你是在准备作证期间才看到这篇文章的？\n8 答：是的。\n9 问：好的。所以你根本不可能就郭先生（Ho Wan Kwok）在文章中说的任何话\n11 与交易所的员工进行沟通，\n12 对吗？\n13 答：对于这篇文章来说，不可能。\n14 问：对。好的。现在我想简要谈谈\n15 Armanino（安曼尼诺）。你认得这家公司的名字吗？\n16 答：我认得。\n17 问：好的。他们是什么人？\n18 答：他们是硅谷的一家审计集团。\n19 问：好的。你参与了聘请他们的决定吗？\n20 答：我没有。\n21 问：好的。他们的职责是什么？\n22 答：我认为是对这些代币进行审计。\n23 问：好的。他们特别是对 HDO（喜美元）\n24 储备金进行了审计，对吗？\n25 答：是的。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 SCHIRICK 先生：好的。请调出\n2 GX BR208，208A。\n3 然后翻到下一页。\n4 问：现在你还记得在主询问中被问及有关此事的\n5 一些问题吗？\n6 答：我记得，律师。\n7 问：好的。按你的理解，HDO——撤回。\n8 按你的理解，我们这里看到的这份\n9 报告，是否仅与 HDO 有关？\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：好的。与 HCN（喜币）无关，对吗？\n12 答：对。\n13 问：好的。这是对支持\n14 HDO 积分的现金储备进行的审计，对吗？\n15 答：没错。\n16 问：好的。你是否同意，这份文件\n17 显示——这份已作为证据提交的文件显示，\n18 美元储备金超过了流通中的\n19 HDO 积分总额；也就是说，顶部的数字大于底部的数字，\n20 大于第二行的数字？\n21 答：我同意。\n22 问：好的。刚才有人问你这份文件\n23 是否反映了任何黄金持有量。你还记得吗？\n24 答：我记得。\n25 问：好的。这份文件没有任何理由显示任何\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 黄金持有量，对吗？\n2 HORTON 先生：反对。\n3 问：嗯，我们刚才已经确定这是一份对现金\n4 储备的审计，所以问题是：黄金没有理由\n5 会反映在这里。\n6 法庭：这份文件是你准备的吗？\n7 SCHIRICK 先生：不是。这是一份审计报告，审判长\n8 阁下。\n9 法庭：这是一份审计报告。\n10 SCHIRICK 先生：是的。\n11 法庭：你在问他审计员\n12 是否应该在文件中包含黄金？\n13 SCHIRICK 先生：不是。审判长阁下，我们通过前面的\n14 提问确定了这份报告反映的是现金储备。\n15 所以我的问题是，他不会指望在这里看到黄金，\n16 因为它仅针对现金。\n17 HORTON 先生：反对。那曲解了证言。\n18 SCHIRICK 先生：我没有问他关于他证言的事。\n19 HORTON 先生：Schirick 先生声称某些事情已被\n20 确定。这曲解了证言。\n21 法庭：你可以问他对于审计\n22 报告有何预期。\n23 SCHIRICK 先生：好的。我问下一题。没问题，审判长\n24 阁下。\n25 由 SCHIRICK 先生继续提问：\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 问：事实上你是否知道 HCN 是否有任何黄金支持？\n2 答：据我所知，任何时候都没有持有过任何——任何黄金。\n3 问：好的。你只是不知道而已。你本来就接触不到\n4 那些信息，对吗？\n5 答：如果我们曾经有过黄金，我大概会知道的，是的。\n6 问：你之前作证说你被拒绝接触各种\n7 信息，对吗？\n8 答：是的，但早期曾有过关于黄金的讨论——\n9 问：对。\n10 答：——而且——当时计划的是将黄金存放在第三方托管机构中，并且会\n12 有实时视频监控——\n13 问：好的。\n14 答：——那是公开的视频监控，所以我本必须拥有\n15 私人访问权限。\n16 问：我们稍谈一下黄金的事。\n17 HORTON 先生：反对。不好意思。反对\n18 打断证人对律师提问的回答。\n19 法庭：不要打断证人。\n20 SCHIRICK 先生：对不起。我没意识到。\n21 抱歉。\n22 HORTON 先生：能否让证人把回答说完。\n23 法庭：请把证人已作出的那部分回答\n24 读一遍，如果你确实被\n25 打断了，之后你可以补充。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 （宣读记录）\n2 证人：是的，是的，那很准确。\n3 由 SCHIRICK 先生继续提问：\n4 问：好的。那么我们就稍谈一下黄金的事。\n5 按你的理解，最初的意图\n6 是否是让 HCN 的——撤回。\n7 按你的理解，最初的意图\n8 是否是将 HCN 初始价值的 10% 作为黄金\n9 储备？\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：好的。这与 HDO 没有任何关系，对吗？\n12 答：对。\n13 问：对。仅与 HCN 有关。\n14 答：没错。\n15 问：而且仅指 HCN 发行时的价值，对吗？\n16 答：是的。\n17 问：而且仅仅是 10%，对吗？\n18 答：是的。\n19 问：好的。那么你听说过一家叫 Sharps Pixley 的机构吗？\n20 答：我想我没有听说过。\n21 问：好的。你在主询问中还就发生的一些查封扣押\n22 作了证，对吗？\n23 答：是的。\n24 问：有人问你是否知道交易所是否\n25 将查封扣押一事告知了其客户，对吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：那你是否知道交易所对该查封扣押\n3 提出了异议？\n4 答：我知道这一点。\n5 问：它聘请了律师就该查封扣押提起诉讼？\n6 答：是的。\n7 问：对。而且据你理解，查封扣押这一事实是公众皆知的事，\n9 对吗？\n10 答：我不确定我是否认为那是公众皆知的。\n11 问：你曾花时间在 Google（谷歌）上搜索过它吗？\n12 答：没有。\n13 问：你曾在法院案件审理记录上查过它吗？\n14 答：我没有。\n15 问：好的。现在，你还就一笔贷款和一艘游艇作了证，\n16 对吗？\n17 答：是的。\n18 问：好的。有人就此问了你一些问题，对吗？\n19 答：没错。\n20 问：好的。Je 先生是 Himalaya（喜马拉雅）的最终实益拥有人，\n21 对吗？\n22 答：没错。\n23 问：好的。作为 Himalaya 的最终实益拥有人，如果\n24 他想发放贷款，他只需履行正确的\n25 程序就能发放贷款，对吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 答：是的。\n2 问：对。而且据你理解，他履行了正确的程序，\n3 对吗？\n4 答：没错。\n5 问：他将此事提交董事会表决了，对吗？\n6 答：这——我不确定。我认为是一个委员会。我不\n7 确定是不是董事会。\n8 问：好的。那么就是一个委员会，他提交给委员会表决了。\n10 答：是的。\n11 问：而且委员会进行了审议，对吗？\n12 答：没错。\n13 问：然后委员会批准了，对吗？\n14 答：没错。\n15 问：好的。现在坐在这里，你并不清楚\n16 那笔贷款具体是用来做什么的，是吗？\n17 答：我清楚。我清楚。我确实清楚那笔贷款是用来做什么的。\n18 问：你清楚那笔贷款不是用来购买\n19 游艇的吗？你清楚吗？\n20 答：我不清楚这一点，不清楚。\n21 问：好的。现在，你还在主询问中就中国\n22 共产党作了证。你记得吗？\n23 答：是的。\n24 问：好的。而且我认为你作证说——如果我说错了\n25 你可以纠正我——你认为 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 交叉询问\n1 与反共没有任何关系，对吗？\n2 答：交易所本身，没有。\n3 问：好的。那你是否记得在接受政府方\n4 询问时曾告诉他们，你的理解是中共\n5 爆料革命是一切的根基？你\n6 记得吗？\n7 答：我不记得了。\n8 问：好的。让我们看看能否帮你唤起记忆。\n9 SCHIRICK 先生：请调出第 3506 号文件，第\n10 11 页。同样，仅供证人、各方当事人以及\n11 法庭查阅。\n12 问：好的。Brown 先生（布朗先生），你屏幕上显示出来了吗？\n13 答：是的。\n14 问：好的。我们会把它高亮标出，然后请你\n15 默读，不要读出声来。\n16 SCHIRICK 先生：你可以继续往下放，Jorge。\n17 问：好的。现在这是否唤起了你的记忆：你曾\n18 告诉政府方整个中共爆料革命那件事是\n19 一切的根基？\n20 答：唤起了。\n21 问：好的。事实上，William Je 会在 Hamilton（汉密尔顿）\n22 谈论反共爆料革命，对吗？\n23 答：是的，他会谈。\n24 问：对。而且他跟你谈过，对吗？\n25 答：他谈过。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\n问：对。所以事实上你明白，根据向你提供的信息，该交易所大约三分之二的客户都在中国，对吗？\n答：是的。\n问：对吧？那就是主要市场，对吗，主要市场？\n答：市场的三分之二。\n问：对。所以你今天早些时候的证词并不准确，对吗？\n答：我——我——我不太确定，我不太确定什么——\n问：你今天早些时候作证说反中共运动与该交易所毫无关系，而我们刚才读到的内容，以及你刚才作证的内容，却表明反中共运动是整件事的基础。\nHORTON 律师：反对。这不是一个提问。\n问：对吗？\n法官：所以我还没——噢，好吧。\nSCHIRICK 律师：这就对了。\n法官：那就是那个问题，逗号，对吗？\nHORTON 律师：法官阁下，这是辩护律师的论辩发言。\nSCHIRICK 律师：这是两组截然不同的证词，法官阁下。我是在问——\n法官：你可以问这个问题，证人你可以回答。\nSCHIRICK 律师：请法庭速记员重读一下刚才的问题好吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\n（重读记录）\n答：是的，但这里面有区别。Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）与 Miles Guo（郭文贵）在社交媒体上所说的一切之间是有区别的。\n问：好的。那么明确地说，你在这里的证词是：反中共运动和爆料革命与该交易所毫无关系；你坚持这一说法。\n答：我坚持认为该交易所是非政治性的，是的。\n问：好的。现在你知道一种叫作 DDoS（分布式拒绝服务）攻击的东西吗？\n答：知道。\n问：好的。那是什么？\n答：就是指你的网络实体的服务器遭到攻击，试图让你瘫痪下线。\n问：对。好的。那么该交易所是否经历过 DDoS 攻击？\n答：经历过。\n问：是的。如果你能数得过来的话，你觉得发生过多少次？\n答：我不确定确切的数字。我不确定……确切的具体数字。\n问：好的。但这对该交易所来说曾是一个问题，对吗？\n答：这不是问题，因为我们采取了防护措施。\n问：对。嗯，负责安全的人 Azeem 当时非常关注潜在的 DDoS 攻击，对吗？\n答：是的。\n问：或者是其他不良方或不良行为者发起的攻击，对吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\n答：没错。\n问：根据你在该交易所工作期间的情况，你是否理解这与反中共爆料革命有任何关系？\n答：有人讨论过这个。\n问：对。有人讨论过这可能是该交易所成为目标的原因，对吗？\n答：是的。\n问：是的。对吗？\n答：是的。\n问：好的。你们是否聘请了供应商来分析这些 DDoS 攻击？我说你们，指的是该交易所。\n答：是的。\n问：如果你还记得的话，这些 DDoS 攻击中是否有一次发生在 2022 年 6 月？\n答：我不记得了。\n问：好的。你在 2023 年 1 月离开了该交易所，对吗？\n答：没错。\n问：好的。离开喜马拉雅交易所后，你是否就你正在做的一个新项目向 Je 先生拉过投资？\n答：拉过。\n问：好的。你是否向他发送了一份协议，请求他进行投资？\n答：发过。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\n问：你当时希望募集多少资金？\n答：我不记得了。\n问：是多于还是少于十万美元？\n答：我认为多于。\n问：是多于还是少于五十万美元？\n答：大概就在那个数额上下。\n问：好的。你和他讨论过这笔投资？\n答：是的。\n问：和他讨论过这笔潜在的投资？\n答：是的，是的。\n问：是的。但他最终一直没有回复你，对吗？\n答：他没有回复。\n问：好的。行。那么，可以说在你从该交易所辞职前的两个月里，你仍在继续致力于该交易所的长期目标，这样说客观吗？\n答：我不这么认为。我到那时基本已经心不在焉、消极怠工了。\n问：所以你只是在按月领薪水？\n答：差不多吧。\n问：好的。所以你不记得在 2022 年 12 月和 2023 年 1 月期间，你是否仍在继续从事诸如商家门户网站之类的工作？\n答：我不记得商家门户网站了。\n问：好的。或者任何可能曾有的自主托管选项——\n答：是的，自主托管选项。\n问：好的。行。那 HEU 呢？你知道那是什么吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\n答：请——请再说一遍好吗？\n问：好的。HEU 呢？\n答：HEU。HEU。噢，那个——我认为那应该是 Himalaya Euro（喜马拉雅欧元）。\n问：对。所以那是该交易所计划推出的另一种稳定币，对吗？\n答：是的。\n问：对。是该交易所准备添加到可在其平台上交易的代币列表中的另一种代币。\n答：是的。\n问：对。即便你可能已经停止致力于该交易所的长期目标，据你了解，该交易所的其他人是否仍在继续致力于那些长期目标？\nHORTON 律师：反对。\nSCHIRICK 律师：在他任职期间。\n法官：你可以陈述你观察到的情况。\nHORTON 律师：反对。刚才的问题问的是在他离职之后的情况。\n法官：我没听清你说什么。\nHORTON 律师：我说刚才的问题是关于他离职之后的情况，所以——\nSCHIRICK 律师：不。刚才的问题是——我很乐意重新组织措辞。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\nSCHIRICK 律师继续发问：\n问：问题是：在你任职末期、你人还在那里的时候，即便如你作证所言你已经消极怠工、只是按月领薪水，该交易所的其他人当时是否仍在致力于该交易所的长期目标？\n答：这样说是客观的。\n问：好的。现在，Brown 先生，在今天出庭作证之前，你曾多次与政府律师会面？\n答：是的。\n问：如果你记得的话，有多少次？\n答：我认为是四次；四五次。\n问：如果得知事实上是九次——加上今天早上，总共是十次，你会感到惊讶吗？\n答：不，不惊讶。\n问：好的。听起来差不多是这样，对吧？\n答：听起来——听起来次数更多，但是——\n问：你说什么？\n答：听起来次数更多，但是——\n问：是的，好的。现在除了你与政府律师会面的那些次数外，你的律师也与他们进行过单独的交谈，对吗？\n答：是的。\n问：好的。而你的律师会——撤回。\n我只是提醒你要注意。我不想让你向我透露你与你的律师之间的任何沟通内容，好吗？我不想让你复述那些谈话，好吗？你明白吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\n答：明白。\n问：好的。可以说你的律师会向你汇报他与政府的交谈情况，这样说客观吗？\n答：是的，这样说是客观的。\n问：好的。那么后来是否到了某个时候，你与政府就对你不予起诉达成了一项协议？\n答：是的。\nSCHIRICK 律师：好的。法官阁下，请容我稍候片刻。\n好的。请向证人出示标为 DX 60657 的物证。\n不要给陪审团看，只给证人看。\nHORTON 律师：法官阁下，我们对其采纳为证据没有异议。\nSCHIRICK 律师：好的。法官阁下，我们动议采纳该证据。\n法官：准予采纳。\n（被告方物证 60657 获准采纳为证据）\nSCHIRICK 律师继续发问：\n问：好的。现在，Brown 先生，你是否认得这就是你与本案政府达成的不可起诉协议？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\n答：认得。\n问：好的。我现在记得你在直接询问开始时作证说，你认为这份协议涵盖了你参与 Guo Media（郭媒体）的相关事项。你记得吗？\n答：记得。\n问：Guo Media 有出现在这第一段中的任何地方吗？\n答：没有。\n问：好的。所以郭媒体并未包含在这份协议中，对吗？你之前只是弄错了？\n答：是我弄错了。\n问：好的。现在这份协议涵盖的是你在 GTV Media（GTV 传媒）和喜马拉雅交易所工作期间的事项，对吗？\n答：是的。\n问：好的。涵盖时间段为 2020 年 6 月至 2023 年 1 月。\n答：没错。\n问：对。那么你是否认为自己在那段时间内犯过任何罪？\n答：我认为犯过。\n问：你所指的罪行，是否就是你在视频中发表的虚假陈述？\n答：是的。\n问：那些罪行是你自己的罪行，对吗？\n答：是的。\n问：因为正如我们之前讲过的，没有人指示你在那些视频中说那些话；喜马拉雅交易所没有任何人指示你在那些视频中说出你所说的话，对吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 盘问\n答：没有任何人告诉我应该在视频中说什么，没有。\n问：对。那些话是你自己的话；不是喜马拉雅交易所的话，不是——对吗？喜马拉雅交易所没有任何人——撤回。\n那些话是你自己的话，对吗？\n答：是的。\nSCHIRICK 律师：好的。现在请翻到第二页。\n问：那么据你理解，由谁来——撤回。\n据你理解，并且我认为你在直接询问中作证说过，只要你今天讲真话，你就会获得这份不可起诉协议所给予的利益，对吗？\n答：是的。\nSCHIRICK 律师：好的。请将倒数第二段第一句话放大。\n问：内容是：“双方理解，如果政府认定 Brown 在签署本协议后犯有任何罪行……”你看到了吗？\n答：看到了。\n问：好的。那么由谁来判定你今天在这里是否讲了真话？\n答：由我来判定我是否在讲真话。\n问：由谁来判定这份协议是否继续有效？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 压轴询问/再询问\n答：政府。\n问：对。如果政府认定你撒了谎，他们就可以将协议撕毁，对吗？\n答：确实如此。\n问：对。所以是由政府来判定你今天在这里是否讲了真话，对吗？\nHORTON 律师：反对。已问过且已作答。\n法官：你可以回答。\n答：由事实来判定我是否讲了真话。\n问：归根结底，是由人来评判那些事实的，对吗？\n答：没错。\n问：那么有权评判那些事实的人是谁呢？就是坐在这里的这些人，对吗？\n答：不，那是——\nHORTON 律师：法官阁下，反对。\n法官：好的。反对成立。\nSCHIRICK 律师：法官阁下，请容我稍候片刻？\n法官：可以。\nSCHIRICK 律师：好的。此时没有其他问题了。\n法官：进行再询问吗？\n再询问\nHORTON 律师发问：\n问：Brown 先生，你早些时候作证说，当你代表该交易所公开发言时，你是在恪守公司的既定口径。你记得吗？\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 压轴询问/再询问\n答：记得。\n问：你从哪里得到的公司既定口径？\n答：嗯，公司既定口径是在会议中讨论过的，包括，你知道的，什么是该说的，什么是不该说的。\n问：那么你在公开采访中所说的话，是否与公司的既定口径保持一致？\n答：是一致的。\n问：是谁为你安排的那些采访？\n答：市场营销部门安排的。\n问：市场营销部门向谁汇报工作？\n答：William Je（余建明）。\n问：在盘问中有人问了你一些关于喜马拉雅交易所其他人获取 H Coin（喜币）的问题。你记得吗？\n答：记得。\n问：那些人是在正式上线前还是上线后获得喜币的？\n我撤回这个问题。\n私募是在什么时候进行的？\n答：是在正式上线前。\n问：喜马拉雅交易所是否有人在私募中获得了喜币？\n答：每个人都有机会在私募中获得该币。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 再次直接询问\n1 配售。\n2 问：你有吗？\n3 答：没有。\n4 问：那么交易所里除你之外的人，\n5 在私募配售中是以什么价格获得 H Coin（喜币）的？\n6 答：10美分。\n7 问：那是在上线之前还是上线之后？\n8 答：上线之前。\n9 问：当时交易所之外有人能以10美分\n10 获得喜币吗？\n11 答：参与私募配售的人。\n12 问：那有没有人参与——让我这样问：是否有\n13 参与私募配售的人并不在交易所\n14 工作？\n15 席里克律师（MR. SCHIRICK）：反对，缺乏事实依据。\n16 法官：你可以回答。\n17 答：有。\n18 问：那些人是谁？\n19 答：那些是个人投资者。\n20 问：他们是如何获得这一途径的？\n21 答：是 William（威廉）给予他们的。\n22 问：在你所说的那些人获得途径之后，\n23 喜币10美分的价格发生了什么变化？\n24 答：在上线之后吗？\n25 问：没错。\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（纽约南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 再次直接询问\n1 答：是的，上线之后价格暴涨。\n2 问：从10美分涨到了多少？\n3 答：在我接受采访时它立即涨到了1美元，两周内涨到了20美元，最后\n4 据我相信，最高涨到了接近60多美元。\n5 问：如果说有什么影响的话，那对于给予你所提到的那些内部人士的\n6 喜币价值意味着什么？\n7 席里克律师：反对，形式问题。\n8 法官：反对成立。\n9 问：布朗先生，如果说有什么影响的话，那对于以10美分给予某些人的\n10 喜币价值意味着什么？\n11 席里克律师：同上反对。\n12 法官：你是在问他一个算术\n13 问题吗？\n14 霍顿律师（MR. HORTON）：我是在问他后来的价格暴涨\n15 对早先授予的币的价值意味着什么；\n16 他对那意味着什么的理解。\n17 法官阁下，我可以继续问下一项。\n18 霍顿律师继续询问：\n19 问：在交叉询问中有人问了你一些关于 Himalaya Exchange（喜马拉雅交易所）\n20 就积分和加密货币所作声明的问题。\n21 你记得吗？\n22 答：记得。\n23 问：H Coin（喜币）积分是加密货币吗？\n24 答：不是。\n25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 再次直接询问\n1 问：为什么不是？\n2 答：因为它们不在区块链上。\n3 席里克律师：法官阁下，反对。这又回到了\n4 早先的法官席前非公开交流。\n5 法官：反对无效。\n6 问：H Dollar（喜美元）积分是加密货币吗？\n7 答：不是。\n8 问：为什么不是？\n9 答：它们不在区块链上。\n10 问：如果曾经有过的话，喜马拉雅交易所的客户什么时候能在区块链上购买\n11 喜美元？\n12 答：在我任职期间从未有过。\n13 问：如果曾经有过的话，喜马拉雅的客户什么时候能在区块链上购买\n14 喜币？\n15 答：律师，在我任职期间从未有过。\n16 问：有人问了你一系列关于其他加密货币交易所客户的情况的问题。你\n17 记得吗？\n18 答：记得。\n19 问：如果曾经有过的话，喜币什么时候在另一家加密货币\n20 交易所挂牌上市过？\n21 答：从——从来没有过。\n22 问：如果曾经有过的话，喜美元什么时候在另一家\n23 加密货币交易所挂牌上市过？\n24 译员：律师，请放慢速度。\n25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 再次直接询问\n1 霍顿律师：好的。\n2 问：布朗先生，如果曾经有过的话，客户什么时候能在另一家加密货币交易所购买\n3 喜美元？\n4 席里克律师：反对。是在他在交易所任职期间吗？\n5 法官：你可以回答。\n6 答：从来没有。\n7 问：在交叉询问中有人问了你一些关于\n8 白皮书分发的问题。你记得吗？\n9 答：记得。\n10 问：长岛哥（Long Island David）分发了白皮书吗？\n11 席里克律师：反对。\n12 法官：反对无效。\n13 问：问题是：长岛哥分发了\n14 喜马拉雅交易所的白皮书吗？\n15 答：我不确定长岛哥是谁。\n16 问：在英国的 David Dai（大卫·戴）分发了白皮书吗？\n17 答：David Fallon（大卫·法伦）吗？\n18 问：噢，不是。在英国的 David Dai，他分发了\n19 白皮书吗？\n20 答：没有。\n21 问：凤凰农场（Phoenix Farm）分发了白皮书吗？\n22 席里克律师：法官阁下，反对。假定未举证之事实。\n23 法官：反对无效。你可以回答。\n24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 再次直接询问\n1 答：没有。\n2 问：Minran Wu（吴敏然）拿到了一份白皮书吗？\n3 席里克律师：反对。缺乏事实依据。他根本不可能\n4 知道那个。\n5 法官：如果你知道，可以回答。\n6 答：我不确定那是谁，也不确定他们是否拿到了一份。\n7 问：香草山农场（Mountain of Spices Farm）分发了白皮书吗？\n8 席里克律师：同上反对。\n9 法官：你可以回答。\n10 答：据我所知没有。\n11 问：那英国农场（UK Farm）呢，他们分发了\n12 白皮书吗？\n13 答：据我所知没有。\n14 席里克律师：同上反对。\n15 问：G翻译组（G Translators）翻译了白皮书吗？\n16 席里克律师：反对。\n17 法官：如果你知道，可以回答。\n18 答：我不确定是谁翻译了白皮书。我想是\n19 我们的客服团队。\n20 问：铁血组（Iron Blood Group）分发了白皮书吗？\n21 席里克律师：反对。\n22 法官：如果你知道，可以回答。\n23 答：嗯，我不知道。\n24 问：你知道 Miles Guo（郭文贵）是否向他的追随者分发了这些白皮书吗？\n25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 再次直接询问\n1 答：我不知道。\n2 霍顿律师：法官阁下，能否给我稍许时间。\n3 法官：可以。\n4 问：在交叉询问中有人问了你关于你与 Yvette Wang（王雁平）第二次\n5 对话的问题。你记得吗？\n6 答：记得。\n7 问：她打电话给你是为了什么事？\n8 答：她打电话给我，试图催促开发团队\n9 将郭文贵旗下实体生态系统连接起来。\n10 问：王雁平为谁工作？\n11 席里克律师：反对。\n12 法官：反对无效。如果你知道，可以回答。\n13 答：我相信是 GTV 或者是 G 集团（G Groups）。\n14 问：谁控制 GTV？\n15 席里克律师：反对。\n16 法官：如果你知道，可以回答。\n17 答：郭文贵控制。\n18 霍顿律师：稍等片刻，法官阁下。\n19 问：布朗先生，在你身处喜马拉雅交易所的两年半时间里，它持有黄金吗？\n20 答：据我——\n21 席里克律师：反对。已问过并已作答。\n22 法官：反对无效。\n23 答：据我所知没有。\n24 问：在你身处喜马拉雅交易所期间，喜币有黄金作为支撑吗？\n25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6 Brown - 再次交叉询问\n1 答：没有；据我所知没有。\n2 问：你在回答席里克律师的问题时提到的黄金实时视频直播，\n3 曾经发生过吗？\n4 答：从未见过。\n5 霍顿律师：没有其他问题了。\n6 法官：再次交叉询问吗？\n7 席里克律师：非常简短，法官阁下。\n8 再次交叉询问\n9 席里克律师发问：\n10 问：霍顿先生刚才列出了一大堆人和\n11 实体，对吧？\n12 答：是的。\n13 问：对吧？你到底知不知道那些人是谁？\n14 答：我没听说过他们，不知道。\n15 问：是的。你到底知不知道他们是否收到了一份\n16 白皮书？\n17 答：我不知道。\n18 问：是的。但按照你的理解，白皮书确实被发布到了互联网上，对吗？\n19 答：是的。\n20 问：好的。你知道他列出的那些人中是否有任何人\n21 能上网吗？\n22 答：你能重复一遍吗？\n23 问：你知道他列出的那些人中是否有任何人能上\n24 互联网吗？\n25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6\n1 答：我不知道。\n2 席里克律师：好的。没有其他问题了。\n3 霍顿律师：没有其他问题了。谢谢。\n4 法官：谢谢。你可以退庭了。\n5 （证人退庭）\n6 法官：陪审团成员们，现在是4点59分。所以我们\n7 已经完成了本周的工作。你们将在周一\n8 回来，我们将恢复之前的日程安排，届时你们将\n9 能够在2点45分离庭。所以我希望你们做好准备，在周一\n10 上午9点30分进入法庭。\n11 我还想提醒你们关于我们接下来的\n12 日程安排。在6月24日那一周，即下周，我们周五\n13 不开庭。所以只有四天。而在接下来的一周，\n14 我们只在周二和周三开庭，即7月2日和\n15 3日。\n16 所以祝你们周末愉快。请记住，你们不得\n17 相互之间或与任何其他人讨论本案。不要允许任何人在你们\n18 面前讨论本案。不要阅读、收听或观看来自任何触及本案\n19 标的之来源的任何内容。\n20 祝你们周末愉快。\n21 （陪审团退席）\n22 法官：请坐。\n23 在我们休庭度周末之前还有什么事吗？\n24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6\n1 芬克尔律师（MR. FINKEL）：法官阁下，鉴于今天下午的进度，我只想对我今天早上\n2 所说的作一点修正。\n3 我们在预测中原本预计今天能完成另外\n4 三名证人，其中两名较短，一名\n5 我认为是中等长度的证人，大概类似于\n6 玛瓦（Mahwah）特别探员。不短但也并不算长。\n7 今天的交叉询问非常长——比直接询问长得多。\n8 我们请求法庭考虑在周二全天开庭，\n9 以确保检方——检方希望做的是在周二完成举证并休息（rest）。\n10 我们认为这将有助于赶上时间。剩下的证人还有若干名，\n11 其中许多我们认为比较简短，但我们不知道交叉询问\n12 会有多长。而且我们对这名特定证人的交叉询问预测\n13 显然是错的。我认为席里克先生在午休时说过他还有45分钟。\n14 结果证明事实也并非如此。这种情况常有，我们\n15 理解。但若要坚持在周二完成，我们可能需要更多时间。\n16 我只是想让法庭了解我们在进度方面的情况。\n17 仅此而已。\n18 法官：我不反对询问陪审员他们周二是否\n19 可以待到5点。所以我们为什么不看看周一的情况如何呢。\n20 芬克尔律师：这对检方来说是合理的，法官阁下。\n21 只是为了让阁下理解，从检方的角度来看，\n22 这不仅仅关乎检方何时完成举证。\n23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6\n1 辩方有他们的案情陈述，正如他们有权进行的那样，而我们正在努力\n2 预测他们案情陈述的长度，以及被告选择作证的可能性，\n3 以及据此我们与法庭告知陪审团的7月12日这一日期相比\n4 会处于何种进度，我想如果是这样的话，再加上休庭日。\n5 这就是检方的考量，我们感谢法庭在此事上的包容，\n6 并祝阁下周末愉快。\n7 法官：辩方有什么意见吗？\n8 希罗夫律师（MS. SHROFF）：法官阁下，我相信卡马拉朱先生（Mr. Kamaraju）\n9 已经沟通过辩方案情陈述并不长，我们\n10 有点困惑为什么检方一直认为我们会超出我们的时间段。\n11 我们完全预计会按照法庭告知陪审员的庭审结束日期\n12 进行。我认为我们不需要更改日程。\n13 但我认为辩方这边并没有任何担忧，\n14 我正试图向法庭说明这一点以消除疑虑。我们并不认为这将是一个漫长的案情陈述。\n15 我们此前已多次表达过这点，并且我们在此重申。如果情况有变，\n16 我们也会立即告知法庭。\n17 谢谢，法官阁下。\n18 芬克尔律师：法官阁下，我已经与辩方律师\n19 讨论过本案，他们的估计是在被告不作证的情况下于\n20 7月3日结束，对吧？如果被告作证，那显然会改变情况。\n21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.\n(212) 805-0300\n\nO6L1GUO6\n但我们也拿到了他们的证人名单，看起来不像是四天的辩方举证案情。如果辩方已从名单中划掉某些证人，有些他们已经告知我们，有些是我们作为约定事项谈判的一部分同意划掉的，但仍有许多证人处于待定状态；如果他们已经知道不会传唤这些人，我们请求他们今天就告诉我们不会传唤谁。\n\nMS. SHROFF（什罗夫女士）：法官阁下，只要我们掌握任何补充信息，我相信我们能够与他们沟通。但再次重申，辩方预计本次审判不会超出向陪审员告知的时间。我仅再次强调这一点。法官阁下，这是漫长的一周，如果我们有任何最新信息，我们很乐意转达。\n\nTHE COURT（法庭）：那好。\n\nMS. SHROFF（什罗夫女士）：谢谢。\n\nTHE COURT（法庭）：周一上午11:30，我将重新审议这个问题。\n\nMR. FINKEL（芬克尔先生）：谢谢法官阁下。\n\nTHE COURT（法庭）：周末愉快。\n\nALL COUNSEL（全体律师）：您也周末愉快。\n\n（休庭至2024年6月24日上午9:00）\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300\n\n询问索引\n被询问人： 页码\nGABRIELLA LUCIANO（加布里埃拉·卢西亚诺）\n主询问 由 Ms. Murray（默里女士）进行 . . . . . . . . . . . . .3580\n交叉询问 由 Ms. Shroff（什罗夫女士）进行 . . . . . . . . . . . . .3610\n再次主询问 由 Ms. Murray（默里女士）进行 . . . . . . . . . . . .3630\n再次交叉询问 由 Ms. Shroff（什罗夫女士）进行 . . . . . . . . . . . .3632\nJESSE BROWN（杰西·布朗）\n主询问 由 Mr. Horton（霍顿先生）进行 . . . . . . . . . . . . .3633\n交叉询问 由 Mr. Schirick（希里克先生）进行 . . . . . . . . . . . .3706\n再次主询问 由 Mr. Horton（霍顿先生）进行 . . . . . . . . . . . .3843\n再次交叉询问 由 Mr. Schirick（希里克先生）进行 . . . . . . . . . . .3851\n政府方证据\n物证编号 采纳页码\nAS-12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3792\nAS-13 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3781\nAS-18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3793\nNJ-358 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3595\n3401 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3677\n3419 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3639\n被告方证据\n物证编号 采纳页码\n60657 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3840\n\nSOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.（南区法庭速记公司）\n(212) 805-0300","key_entities":[],"ecf_references":[],"word_count":61027,"status":"published","published_at":"2024-07-23 00:00:00","created_at":"2024-07-23","updated_at":"2026-08-23 08:52:53"}