{"id":"batch-000060","number":60,"revision":2,"date_start":"2025-11-30T03:30:19.190Z","date_end":"2025-12-04T06:33:37.943Z","total_messages":1000,"summary_en":"Community discussion, batch 060 (Nov 30, 2025 – Dec 4, 2025), 1,000 messages, on the Guo Wengui / Miles Guo (Ho Wan Kwok) case. Discussions diverged across multiple levels of the case. Participants disputed financial liability, fraud classifications, and restitution timing, while debating appellate procedures, including the Second Circuit, ECF 767 docketing, a fourteen-day deadline, and Supreme Court intervention. Disagreements also persisted over CVRA standing, third-party submissions, and informational credibility, alongside tactical choices regarding in forma pauperis filings and interpersonal community friction, leaving defense and sentencing expectations divided without consensus.","guide_en":[{"title":"Initial Disputes on Amounts and Liability: Disagreements Over Fraud Allegations, Payer Priority, and Refund Timing","description":"Participants debate whether fraud occurred, who bears primary financial liability, and how investor refunds should proceed.","message_ids":["qc0c13a79ce575683b746","q277e39eb181857ff1e13","qc30202c14e04d7047ff9"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qc0c13a79ce575683b746","summary_en":"rui*** cites a figure of two trillion."},{"message_id":"q277e39eb181857ff1e13","summary_en":"reb*** contends that whoever committed fraud should be imprisoned and pay restitution, arguing that the U.S. government should also pay if responsible."},{"message_id":"qc30202c14e04d7047ff9","summary_en":"xin*** asks whether anyone knows how much money was actually invested in the movement."}]},{"title":"Second Circuit and Appellate Route Disputes: ECF 767 Docketing, the 14-Day Deadline, and Exhausting Procedures","description":"Participants dispute appellate procedures involving the Second Circuit, the fourteen-day docketing window, and ECF 767.","message_ids":["qf2610743e8af46670539","qf03cba4b841f42491f5d","q2c8e8974bc65806b7286"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qf2610743e8af46670539","summary_en":"rui*** criticizes ongoing appellate actions as disorganized and misguided."},{"message_id":"qf03cba4b841f42491f5d","summary_en":"rui*** contends that the Southern District must upload all victim motions within fourteen days."},{"message_id":"q2c8e8974bc65806b7286","summary_en":"sar*** advises arguing that the court selectively dockets favorable rulings while ignoring victim filings, praising a recent Supreme Court submission."}]},{"title":"Protracted Contention Over CVRA Standing, Victim Status, and Third-Party Intervention Boundaries","description":"Participants contend over qualifying as victims under the CVRA and the procedural boundaries for third parties intervening in the case.","message_ids":["qc7ddd41e08226d07093b","qf3dbc174d8f5f1029f88","q13b0457b6313ead9fec7"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qc7ddd41e08226d07093b","summary_en":"beg*** discusses defined roles in the case and contends that G-series investors and Guo are victims of government actions."},{"message_id":"qf3dbc174d8f5f1029f88","summary_en":"spr*** asks whether participants can still file motions under victim status."},{"message_id":"q13b0457b6313ead9fec7","summary_en":"beg*** suggests appealing to the Second Circuit if Judge Torres does not docket filings within fourteen days, arguing that collective filings exert pressure."}]},{"title":"Parallel Arguments Over the Alleged Pro Se Trap and Inconclusive Debates on Aggravated Consequences","description":"Participants argue over allegations that pro se filings constitute a procedural trap and dispute potential consequences.","message_ids":["qce2e091c766af8646a05","qabd18ac9faa16fc47a11","q1c7bcc9c409f069e6159"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qce2e091c766af8646a05","summary_en":"hah*** shares content addressing the controversy surrounding pro se filings."},{"message_id":"qabd18ac9faa16fc47a11","summary_en":"beg*** contends that Section 853(n) is an established legal procedure."},{"message_id":"q1c7bcc9c409f069e6159","summary_en":"hah*** posts content regarding the dispute over potential risks of pro se filings."}]},{"title":"Scope of Third-Party Materials on the Docket: Substantive Reversal Versus Procedural and Evidentiary Preservation","description":"Participants debate whether third-party submissions can overturn the conviction or merely serve to preserve the record.","message_ids":["q3c22147121e3d5b1fa35","q2b729a64dd161d7247d2","q0a3e52436c8e1d582615"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q3c22147121e3d5b1fa35","summary_en":"reb*** compares the timing of civil forfeiture proceedings across cases, noting that forfeiture was initiated prior to sentencing."},{"message_id":"q2b729a64dd161d7247d2","summary_en":"him*** explains procedurally how postponing sentencing isolates third-party claims and preserves a clean record for appeal."},{"message_id":"q0a3e52436c8e1d582615","summary_en":"rui*** asks what would happen if issues raised by third parties undermined the foundation of the prosecution's case."}]},{"title":"Continued Skepticism Over AI and Public Information: Mixing Documents, Trial Records, and Outside Experience","description":"Participants question the reliability of using artificial intelligence, public commentary, and trial materials to analyze the case.","message_ids":["qf1405c267340b9b64ced","qb1dec9409ce0ca443040","q4bae131827f2a81c6f14"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qf1405c267340b9b64ced","summary_en":"ntp*** notes that an external commentator has begun analyzing case documents."},{"message_id":"qb1dec9409ce0ca443040","summary_en":"rui*** disputes the idea that others can identify key legal issues simply by using artificial intelligence."},{"message_id":"q4bae131827f2a81c6f14","summary_en":"sar*** shares a link to an external video stream discussing the case."}]},{"title":"Spillover of Identity and Role Narratives: From Community Metaphors to Account Ownership and Labeling Conflicts","description":"Participants dispute internal community roles, account authenticity, and interpersonal labeling.","message_ids":["q320541df588719060e28","q93463c51b51269688ffb","q68cc06d6844877f437f3"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q320541df588719060e28","summary_en":"hah*** posts content addressing community dynamics and internal discord."},{"message_id":"q93463c51b51269688ffb","summary_en":"hah*** shares content concerning interpersonal conflicts within the community."},{"message_id":"q68cc06d6844877f437f3","summary_en":"hah*** posts content relating to labeling disputes and account authenticity."}]},{"title":"Transitioning to Actionable Steps: Divergent Views on Mail and Paper Filings, Redactions, and IFP Submissions","description":"Participants compare filing methods, privacy redactions, and in forma pauperis options.","message_ids":["q45c448bf33192333236a","q74dbc8d61f81438b6ef3","q0c6568a42e3a1ed7bc6f"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q45c448bf33192333236a","summary_en":"yao*** asks whether filing as a CVRA victim by email remains possible."},{"message_id":"q74dbc8d61f81438b6ef3","summary_en":"beg*** recommends sending filings by both email and physical mail while redacting personal information to preserve privacy."},{"message_id":"q0c6568a42e3a1ed7bc6f","summary_en":"rui*** suggests applying to proceed in forma pauperis."}]},{"title":"Debates Between Escalating to the Supreme Court, Awaiting Leadership, and Continuing Procedural Steps","description":"Participants dispute whether to pursue Supreme Court appeals, await Guo's release, or focus on procedural filings.","message_ids":["q9bf2f75e2516e4da30c6","q5b4c5e48b71b36b2e28c","qf17224d8af229f59b2b9"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q9bf2f75e2516e4da30c6","summary_en":"beg*** suggests researching potential statements or rulings from the Supreme Court."},{"message_id":"q5b4c5e48b71b36b2e28c","summary_en":"xin*** argues against ongoing arguments and advocates waiting for Guo's release."},{"message_id":"qf17224d8af229f59b2b9","summary_en":"rui*** claims to possess a major upcoming revelation."}]},{"title":"Divergent Sentencing Expectations: Halting Proceedings, Altering Rulings, or Extreme Avenues of Relief","description":"Participants contend over whether sentencing can be prevented, overturned, or altered through external relief.","message_ids":["qeb80cd7da8a274a231bb","q1ac19d8a74dd5080aa56","q1bae92669fcb85c05a48"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qeb80cd7da8a274a231bb","summary_en":"beg*** questions whether sufficient grounds exist to compel dismissal and what steps could prevent sentencing."},{"message_id":"q1ac19d8a74dd5080aa56","summary_en":"pz0*** contends that the sentencing date could only be altered by securing a presidential pardon or through death."},{"message_id":"q1bae92669fcb85c05a48","summary_en":"rui*** reacts to potential sentence enhancements by remarking that the term could increase to a hundred years."}]}],"summary":"讨论始终围绕同一案件在多层面分化。第一层是金额与责任：是否诈骗、谁应先赔付、退款时点与冻结范围多次拉锯。第二层是程序路径：二巡、14天上传、是否必须穷尽程序后再向更高法庭推进，以及“最高法介入”是否真正改变走向，长期无共识。第三层是证据和身份：对司法信函、庭审资料、AI汇总与外部经验的可采性存在分歧，并持续围绕CVRA、受害人资格和第三方介入的法理边界展开。后段又出现角色化叙事（如“摘桃/伪园丁”、账号真伪、PUA标签）与实际行动策略（邮件、纸质、IFP等）并行，导致理性争辩与情绪对立并存，结论整体未统一。","guide":[{"title":"金额与责任归属先行争议：是否诈骗、谁先赔付与退款时点反复分歧","message_ids":["qc0c13a79ce575683b746","q277e39eb181857ff1e13","qc30202c14e04d7047ff9"]},{"title":"二巡与上诉路径争议：ECF 767上传、14天节点及是否必须穷尽程序","message_ids":["qf2610743e8af46670539","qf03cba4b841f42491f5d","q2c8e8974bc65806b7286"]},{"title":"CVRA与受害人身份、第三方介入边界长期拉扯","message_ids":["qc7ddd41e08226d07093b","qf3dbc174d8f5f1029f88","q13b0457b6313ead9fec7"]},{"title":"“自诉陷阱”主张与反驳并行，是否加重后果无一致结论","message_ids":["qce2e091c766af8646a05","qabd18ac9faa16fc47a11","q1c7bcc9c409f069e6159"]},{"title":"第三方材料入卷范围：能否触发实体推翻，还是仅作程序和证据保全","message_ids":["q3c22147121e3d5b1fa35","q2b729a64dd161d7247d2","q0a3e52436c8e1d582615"]},{"title":"AI与公开信息可信度持续受疑：文件、庭审与外部经验混用","message_ids":["qf1405c267340b9b64ced","qb1dec9409ce0ca443040","q4bae131827f2a81c6f14"]},{"title":"身份与角色叙事外溢：从“桃林生态”到账号归属、PUA等标签化争执","message_ids":["q320541df588719060e28","q93463c51b51269688ffb","q68cc06d6844877f437f3"]},{"title":"从口号到可执行：邮件/纸质并行、隐私遮盖、IFP与低成本路径分歧","message_ids":["q45c448bf33192333236a","q74dbc8d61f81438b6ef3","q0c6568a42e3a1ed7bc6f"]},{"title":"“冲塔高法/等郭”与继续程序论战并行，是否以外部动作替代细节推进未统一","message_ids":["q9bf2f75e2516e4da30c6","q5b4c5e48b71b36b2e28c","qf17224d8af229f59b2b9"]},{"title":"量刑结果预期分裂：能否阻止量刑、改判或仅留极端救济空间","message_ids":["qeb80cd7da8a274a231bb","q1ac19d8a74dd5080aa56","q1bae92669fcb85c05a48"]}],"closed":true,"is_finalized":true,"updated_at":"2026-09-06T16:15:14.802Z","notice":"这里汇集爆料革命参与者围绕郭文贵案的持续讨论，包括长期深度参与者及自述投入真金白银的投资者。他们分享亲历过程、资金投入与后续遭遇，并结合案卷展开追问、核对和观点交锋。这些来自事件内部的经验与细节，为理解事件经过和投资者处境提供了外部报道之外的重要视角。请结合具体发言判断其经历与依据，引用时保留发言者、时间和上下文。","content_type":"discussion_batch","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060/pages/5","base_batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-batches/batch-000060?page=5","page":5,"page_size":200,"total_pages":5,"has_more":false,"next_url":null,"prev_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-batches/batch-000060?page=4","messages":[{"id":"qe84d2693612ffcdc045a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":801,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:28:33.233Z","text":"郭美如果是真的，那就是妨碍司法","edited":false,"reply_to":"q7ef690c8c681aa6f262c","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe84d2693612ffcdc045a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7ef690c8c681aa6f262c","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qaa7bda5a8825ff07ab80","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":802,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T03:28:54.991Z","text":"我觉得检方不敢回复","edited":false,"reply_to":"qca0351fff91859e7728f","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qaa7bda5a8825ff07ab80","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qca0351fff91859e7728f","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qc9dae2aeaeb157a1eab3","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":803,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:29:08.069Z","text":"她啥也没说 妨碍什么司法","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc9dae2aeaeb157a1eab3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb5a36aef2e9b8587ed1f","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":804,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:29:21.261Z","text":"辩方说了，检方已经说他们会提交书面反对","edited":false,"reply_to":"qaa7bda5a8825ff07ab80","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb5a36aef2e9b8587ed1f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qaa7bda5a8825ff07ab80","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q62d781f7ef61d4b5a41a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":805,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:30:07.511Z","text":"她支持tdccp了","edited":false,"reply_to":"qc9dae2aeaeb157a1eab3","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q62d781f7ef61d4b5a41a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc9dae2aeaeb157a1eab3","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5468c91e61e10ffbf3b8","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":806,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:30:14.806Z","text":"还支持青藤联盟","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5468c91e61e10ffbf3b8","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qcf62320998b7735405a9","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":807,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:30:17.037Z","text":"第三方 摩拳擦掌吧 - 还会继续拼刺刀 拼下去。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qcf62320998b7735405a9","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb859e71e920bf79a2c60","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":808,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T03:30:55.805Z","text":"延期，让被告在被关押的情况下更晚的进入上诉程序。同时，也增加了量不了刑直接撤销案件的可能性。的可能性","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb859e71e920bf79a2c60","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb700b3cc53ca466d6d62","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":809,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:31:52.859Z","text":"郭美好像不是同案犯，她只是被调查","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb700b3cc53ca466d6d62","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qa84eafb3aef47150d3f1","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":810,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:32:40.535Z","text":"但是“郭美”账户是不是真郭美，我存疑","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa84eafb3aef47150d3f1","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q9d0e951095ee2647913e","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":811,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T03:33:26.864Z","text":"应该是律师在配合法官拖时间，由律师提出延期然后法官批准，是目前逃避责任的最优方式。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9d0e951095ee2647913e","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q9ca6e534f2f4ad04cd00","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":812,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2025-12-04T03:33:27.726Z","text":"导演专业的人怎么会发盗版视频网站的链接？","edited":false,"reply_to":"qa84eafb3aef47150d3f1","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9ca6e534f2f4ad04cd00","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa84eafb3aef47150d3f1","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q260e219295fdda561e80","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":813,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:33:43.813Z","text":"也要考虑大的司法环境： 深层政府的人希望通过拖延对奥巴马黑暗势力的法律行动 给他们赢得暗杀川普的空间。 但是他们拖不了多久， 因为川普已经对邦迪不耐烦了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q260e219295fdda561e80","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf301b55808e2a15ff87b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":814,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:34:08.192Z","text":"可能","edited":false,"reply_to":"q9d0e951095ee2647913e","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf301b55808e2a15ff87b","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9d0e951095ee2647913e","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q9e771918c6c1ab17fa47","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":815,"speaker":"hah***","date":"2025-12-04T03:34:49.119Z","text":"就你们这群[屏蔽词]，还继续给郭先生背后捅刀","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9e771918c6c1ab17fa47","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qfda2d45750c46cbd02b3","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":816,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:34:53.436Z","text":"之前那个郭案观察者不是说1月20日的量刑谁也挡不住吗","edited":false,"reply_to":"q9d0e951095ee2647913e","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfda2d45750c46cbd02b3","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9d0e951095ee2647913e","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q688e2905bc443443f984","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":817,"speaker":"hah***","date":"2025-12-04T03:35:41.227Z","text":"用你们谎言编织新的戏码","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q688e2905bc443443f984","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q7ff29943b916cf5c23f2","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":818,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T03:36:17.829Z","text":"哎！不知被告对ta造成了多大伤害，那么急迫地想被告被量刑。","edited":false,"reply_to":"qfda2d45750c46cbd02b3","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7ff29943b916cf5c23f2","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfda2d45750c46cbd02b3","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qcafbfa68acecd2b8a829","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":819,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:37:23.669Z","text":"是不是真郭美，不知道","edited":false,"reply_to":"q9ca6e534f2f4ad04cd00","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qcafbfa68acecd2b8a829","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9ca6e534f2f4ad04cd00","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q214357a732a764e96a09","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":820,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:37:49.428Z","text":"我严重怀疑不是","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q214357a732a764e96a09","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb57c9d1f6c6f2225ad07","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":821,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2025-12-04T03:38:00.770Z","text":"非常赞成，开始是真的郭美，后来给联盟操作，读起来感觉是个十足的脑残写的，胖了，又胖了，胖了一点，此人很喜欢看电影，是个心底毒辣的女写手，文化水平不高。这是我的感觉","edited":false,"reply_to":"q80c1a3ab362bd764be0f","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb57c9d1f6c6f2225ad07","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q80c1a3ab362bd764be0f","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q91654267024ce1693101","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":822,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:39:18.142Z","text":"这如果是真郭美 你还会这么认为？😂","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb57c9d1f6c6f2225ad07","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q91654267024ce1693101","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb57c9d1f6c6f2225ad07","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q3ff2b75a69fc2c72fae7","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":823,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T03:39:44.231Z","text":"唯一有点疑问的是，账号是否由国美本人或者授权开设。那些文字，一定不是郭美打的。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3ff2b75a69fc2c72fae7","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q923d7e26d53d1a1ca3e4","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":824,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2025-12-04T03:39:45.974Z","text":"一开始是真的，后来一定不是","edited":false,"reply_to":"q91654267024ce1693101","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q923d7e26d53d1a1ca3e4","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q91654267024ce1693101","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf648f8db00f9592ed3eb","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":825,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:40:17.478Z","text":"这可是美国呀 一个大活人","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf648f8db00f9592ed3eb","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qfbdb247114e7acc25705","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":826,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2025-12-04T03:40:22.282Z","text":"人家没钱吗？需要看盗版电影","edited":false,"reply_to":"q91654267024ce1693101","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfbdb247114e7acc25705","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q91654267024ce1693101","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q6d3184c7cc00cc9e300b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":827,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:40:30.870Z","text":"但是她说郭和律师开会，然后就出现这个动议","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6d3184c7cc00cc9e300b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf5e42d879573daebdd3f","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":828,"speaker":"hah***","date":"2025-12-04T03:40:33.853Z","text":"现在用上我的分析了😆","edited":false,"reply_to":"q9ca6e534f2f4ad04cd00","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf5e42d879573daebdd3f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9ca6e534f2f4ad04cd00","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q067068f62617a92f8ac9","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":829,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:40:50.267Z","text":"她可能没注意这个盗版细节","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q067068f62617a92f8ac9","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qae2a1b8d797bd96f9654","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":830,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:41:26.216Z","text":"不重要了。重点是下一步","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qae2a1b8d797bd96f9654","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q4ee1ec21e33b2b8f1ad1","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":831,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2025-12-04T03:41:28.245Z","text":"在美国联盟公然诈骗搞TDCCP卡都敢干，写点小短文骗骗人那不是小菜一碟？","edited":false,"reply_to":"qf648f8db00f9592ed3eb","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4ee1ec21e33b2b8f1ad1","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf648f8db00f9592ed3eb","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q17cf1ff6e4dc78d43559","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":832,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2025-12-04T03:42:23.403Z","text":"不需要真郭美说，假郭美也知道，也可以说。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q6d3184c7cc00cc9e300b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q17cf1ff6e4dc78d43559","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6d3184c7cc00cc9e300b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qc10f2cbf75d8c9115f61","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":833,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:42:32.478Z","text":"TDCCP K刚开始不一定是诈骗。可能后来他们起坏心了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc10f2cbf75d8c9115f61","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q25b01234945466c3ac8a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":834,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T03:42:56.897Z","text":"他们是指 联盟那些人","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q25b01234945466c3ac8a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qce5bf60f10ea3c88383b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":835,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T03:43:20.333Z","text":"就是为诈骗而来，且蓄谋已久。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qce5bf60f10ea3c88383b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q1e5a5d9dd5ff55e6518a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":836,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:43:21.789Z","text":"真郭美不一定比假郭美知道得多","edited":false,"reply_to":"q17cf1ff6e4dc78d43559","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1e5a5d9dd5ff55e6518a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q17cf1ff6e4dc78d43559","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q216936f1b7d49c9bcbff","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":837,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:43:30.870Z","text":"所以是不是郭美无所谓","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q216936f1b7d49c9bcbff","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qca89be9ec8926dcb5d8e","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":838,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:43:44.943Z","text":"郭美也代表不了郭","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qca89be9ec8926dcb5d8e","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q7a6e35809cee3b947830","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":839,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T03:43:52.879Z","text":"真郭美肯定没有那群诈骗犯知道得多","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7a6e35809cee3b947830","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q73b5088bd56ed05923f3","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":840,"speaker":"hah***","date":"2025-12-04T03:44:07.541Z","text":"有种的自己分析，不要拿我的分析结果出来论证你们的判断","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q73b5088bd56ed05923f3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q802a24d87aabe03f400d","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":841,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T03:44:30.212Z","text":"我也觉得","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb57c9d1f6c6f2225ad07","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q802a24d87aabe03f400d","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb57c9d1f6c6f2225ad07","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q4459f40945822c599c2f","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":842,"speaker":"hah***","date":"2025-12-04T03:45:40.015Z","text":"借用我的分析，抬你们的信用筹码，这也是骗子通用手法","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4459f40945822c599c2f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qbc910a5ed7aa23dc07c8","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":843,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T03:45:40.802Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息] 你最高法有消息吗","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbc910a5ed7aa23dc07c8","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q510b8c11108eb2d2bf24","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":844,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2025-12-04T03:46:58.786Z","text":"哪有这么快呀。","edited":false,"reply_to":"qbc910a5ed7aa23dc07c8","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q510b8c11108eb2d2bf24","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbc910a5ed7aa23dc07c8","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q7a3521fae0106a8cc413","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":845,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2025-12-04T03:48:11.943Z","text":"拖延量刑是郭的本意，还是辩方律师自己做的","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7a3521fae0106a8cc413","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qe7fa587a80e6a13c6dc8","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":846,"speaker":"nev***","date":"2025-12-04T03:48:42.367Z","text":"郭美也看留学生都看的全球最大中文盗版网站爱一帆，我是真的大跌眼镜，搞不好这是那帮小年轻编的","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe7fa587a80e6a13c6dc8","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qd05c905e0b1cec8f5add","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":847,"speaker":"nev***","date":"2025-12-04T03:49:28.745Z","text":"我再傻也不可能信郭美是真的了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd05c905e0b1cec8f5add","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf73e8148aa7b2d87b2dd","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":848,"speaker":"nev***","date":"2025-12-04T03:49:38.842Z","text":"她是学导演的，还能没个Netflix","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf73e8148aa7b2d87b2dd","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q22a89a3ba0511a7a6411","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":849,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2025-12-04T03:49:39.381Z","text":"真看盗版视频，丢了老郭的脸面","edited":false,"reply_to":"qe7fa587a80e6a13c6dc8","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q22a89a3ba0511a7a6411","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe7fa587a80e6a13c6dc8","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qabe28c7121f6412cdf90","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":850,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:50:00.673Z","text":"感觉“郭美”的账户消息比联盟灵通，而且有时会和联盟不一致","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qabe28c7121f6412cdf90","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qae8a747edc759c04f6b9","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":851,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:50:42.851Z","text":"最近已经不推荐盗版网站了","edited":false,"reply_to":"qf73e8148aa7b2d87b2dd","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qae8a747edc759c04f6b9","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf73e8148aa7b2d87b2dd","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q661d9cefa223b2836407","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":852,"speaker":"chu***","date":"2025-12-04T03:50:46.183Z","text":"我怎么看不出辩护律师复活啊？\n［用户 rui***］","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q661d9cefa223b2836407","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q0a9439ee0e65ee0f0e12","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":853,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:50:56.405Z","text":"根本没复活","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0a9439ee0e65ee0f0e12","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q0108d5926e218ec44d33","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":854,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T03:51:11.819Z","text":"完全官僚作风","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0108d5926e218ec44d33","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb8938e22fdf39e5b1774","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":855,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2025-12-04T03:53:24.866Z","text":"上最高法翻案，拖延量刑也没有用吧？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb8938e22fdf39e5b1774","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q079bc6171b6e279c9f66","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":856,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T03:57:22.566Z","text":"可能他们确实需要时间看文件，政府停摆也耽误了他们的时间，检方犯贱地就是故意给你整海量材料让你难以找到有用信息，延期是为上诉作准备。也需要把量刑程序走扎实以有利于上诉，并不是要怎么减少星期。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q079bc6171b6e279c9f66","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q9ae635e85aaf01acfef6","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":857,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:03:46.734Z","text":"大家可能没看懂 这是律师在威胁托雷斯","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9ae635e85aaf01acfef6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5144a984beef16185ce0","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":858,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:04:33.460Z","text":"这案子形成了一个前所未有的局面 第三方越牛逼 律师越大胆","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5144a984beef16185ce0","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf1cfa41f68394001eb23","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":859,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:04:42.543Z","text":"大家还不死命上？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf1cfa41f68394001eb23","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q8ec2b347a666235673d6","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":860,"speaker":"hah***","date":"2025-12-04T04:06:26.191Z","text":"太搞笑了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8ec2b347a666235673d6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5b10817e1cc2d80e2c67","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":861,"speaker":"hah***","date":"2025-12-04T04:10:13.753Z","text":"把自诉当成一个app项目开发，最大的bug都没有找到","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5b10817e1cc2d80e2c67","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5f0376eada048718ac97","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":862,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:10:15.271Z","text":"律师之前就延期过一次","edited":false,"reply_to":"q9dc4066a75b427faf4a5","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5f0376eada048718ac97","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q65a0a86cdeca46ba5e57","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":863,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:10:27.930Z","text":"法官批准了，还多给了一个月","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q65a0a86cdeca46ba5e57","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q82a29afbaac3e8659f0b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":864,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:10:33.625Z","text":"恩","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q82a29afbaac3e8659f0b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qc80610eb38f48026040c","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":865,"speaker":"hah***","date":"2025-12-04T04:10:39.153Z","text":"还自吹是程序员","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc80610eb38f48026040c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q6b755f4261ac70dd54b4","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":866,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:10:43.052Z","text":"当时他们也是说同样的理由","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6b755f4261ac70dd54b4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q99e3f0d508159e0736ee","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":867,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:10:51.704Z","text":"有没有提无效辩护","edited":false,"reply_to":"q6b755f4261ac70dd54b4","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q99e3f0d508159e0736ee","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6b755f4261ac70dd54b4","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qbf5fe4050d50316c8314","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":868,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:11:01.739Z","text":"但是这次说到没收财产数额有争议了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbf5fe4050d50316c8314","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q642c9cf5133b60cd0ed3","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":869,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:11:01.819Z","text":"上次是几号文件？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q642c9cf5133b60cd0ed3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qce33e0985f9e699fdc9d","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":870,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:11:06.776Z","text":"对的","edited":false,"reply_to":"qbf5fe4050d50316c8314","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qce33e0985f9e699fdc9d","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbf5fe4050d50316c8314","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q0500f6fe30d53acbc693","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":871,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:14:41.837Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息] 机器人的结论","edited":true,"reply_to":"qde2e5824fa477e81552c","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0500f6fe30d53acbc693","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q1b29335466ae11dd7012","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":872,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:19:49.396Z","text":"法官好像只有打你的时候，很威严","edited":false,"reply_to":"qfe67afc644d1719f7d24","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1b29335466ae11dd7012","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q7c571989ba72e270b644","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":873,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:23:33.416Z","text":"律师这次还是中规中矩","edited":false,"reply_to":"q0500f6fe30d53acbc693","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7c571989ba72e270b644","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0500f6fe30d53acbc693","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q9bc64c99ef70de101ad3","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":874,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:24:19.145Z","text":"不是 这次是表面中性 其实是在威胁","edited":false,"reply_to":"q7c571989ba72e270b644","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9bc64c99ef70de101ad3","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7c571989ba72e270b644","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q7fe54bdc9d540d782c56","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":875,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:24:26.355Z","text":"拖3个月的主要理由就是之前没钱了，所以没干活","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7fe54bdc9d540d782c56","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q28869fcf4d6932fa3352","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":876,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:24:57.483Z","text":"这次的信 是典型的要制造二巡的司法记录","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q28869fcf4d6932fa3352","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qdb203e344f1afcce46c9","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":877,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:25:10.087Z","text":"其实我每一份动议都是这么干的","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdb203e344f1afcce46c9","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb24847dcbe6229f5ca08","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":878,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:26:30.407Z","text":"我没看出来，但是我也不太懂","edited":false,"reply_to":"q9bc64c99ef70de101ad3","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb24847dcbe6229f5ca08","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9bc64c99ef70de101ad3","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q60a55fc75ed5b1bc4a27","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":879,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:29:58.037Z","text":"律师这次典型的话里藏刀","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb24847dcbe6229f5ca08","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q60a55fc75ed5b1bc4a27","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb24847dcbe6229f5ca08","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q1e2f86fffbb1d70e6699","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":880,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:35:29.989Z","text":"哈哈","edited":false,"reply_to":"q37bb185e10a3ced8ddea","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1e2f86fffbb1d70e6699","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q0a87676a72ef1b4aeec5","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":881,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:35:34.493Z","text":"你的话也有道理","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0a87676a72ef1b4aeec5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q84769905351272c8322a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":882,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:36:58.698Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息]  在演的是这个","edited":true,"reply_to":"qaf57df2b10c7bd3d806b","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q84769905351272c8322a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qba8561845b9c78227924","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":883,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:41:00.197Z","text":"不是提延期","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qba8561845b9c78227924","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q710d80ac2a895c9dff67","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":884,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:41:06.585Z","text":"而是他说的话","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q710d80ac2a895c9dff67","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q88274ea7d4a5e72ee4c9","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":885,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:41:36.339Z","text":"这就是为什么 你当老郭首席律师 早就翻案了","edited":false,"reply_to":"qd532898b7600f8c7ef1f","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q88274ea7d4a5e72ee4c9","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q2a0c45fcfd790372bda4","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":886,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:42:46.026Z","text":"如果我是老郭的律师 我马上提出要检察官撤案 因为 第三方提出的各种违规必须需要 法官正视","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2a0c45fcfd790372bda4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q1870b52a41c661d3b46b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":887,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:43:04.677Z","text":"我会延期 因为我知道瑞恩这厮只是刚刚开始 后面一定会有深水炸弹 🤣","edited":false,"reply_to":"q6cd9e5c067ef553faaab","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1870b52a41c661d3b46b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q407269f750b57b09816a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":888,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:43:29.056Z","text":"老郭也在等","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q407269f750b57b09816a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qdbbb9d0206471f854611","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":889,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:43:29.897Z","text":"可以这么做 但你的执照就没了😄","edited":false,"reply_to":"q2a0c45fcfd790372bda4","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdbbb9d0206471f854611","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2a0c45fcfd790372bda4","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qa0e9d9ce6d264b6f1058","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":890,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:44:04.084Z","text":"你这个打法就是反着打 很牛逼","edited":false,"reply_to":"qe48e7949497398c5fd55","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa0e9d9ce6d264b6f1058","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q20badff98e9709a895f0","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":891,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:44:56.764Z","text":"郭律师催着量刑？ 那就严重失职","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q20badff98e9709a895f0","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qeb56064401b4b90e2c9a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":892,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:45:03.501Z","text":"对的","edited":false,"reply_to":"q20badff98e9709a895f0","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qeb56064401b4b90e2c9a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q20badff98e9709a895f0","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qec019b47d52bfc911a3f","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":893,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:45:13.076Z","text":"律师干不了这个事","edited":false,"reply_to":"q20badff98e9709a895f0","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qec019b47d52bfc911a3f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q20badff98e9709a895f0","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qd8fb7c3eb99aef6b4c96","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":894,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:45:27.121Z","text":"老郭在等。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd8fb7c3eb99aef6b4c96","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q3e125367d3574ee68e09","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":895,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:46:20.414Z","text":"我是老郭律师 一定知道瑞恩这厮后面还有最高法🤣","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3e125367d3574ee68e09","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q78a4f022ab41ff52d5a6","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":896,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:47:37.237Z","text":"瑞恩的37条违规上了吗？ 法官 检方 郭律师知道吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q78a4f022ab41ff52d5a6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q9b1e0c35e85af256949a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":897,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:47:42.915Z","text":"老郭律师想摘桃子","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9b1e0c35e85af256949a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qc2e254559eee86dcb8b0","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":898,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:47:53.395Z","text":"知道肯定知道 但没写","edited":false,"reply_to":"q78a4f022ab41ff52d5a6","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc2e254559eee86dcb8b0","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q78a4f022ab41ff52d5a6","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb79aaf35f7a9d9d96829","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":899,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:47:57.927Z","text":"写的很隐晦","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb79aaf35f7a9d9d96829","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q562faf2af17df5477f47","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":900,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:48:39.132Z","text":"我的意思是 您的法庭文件里有这37条吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":"qc2e254559eee86dcb8b0","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q562faf2af17df5477f47","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc2e254559eee86dcb8b0","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q3f33e981fe188e4143c9","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":901,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:48:58.737Z","text":"37条就是我733的报告总结的","edited":false,"reply_to":"q562faf2af17df5477f47","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3f33e981fe188e4143c9","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q562faf2af17df5477f47","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q2b729a64dd161d7247d2","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":902,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:49:02.802Z","text":"下面用程序层面的方式解释：延长期限是如何在法律上把第三方问题（包括\"欺骗法院”的指控）排除在量刑记录之外的。\n\n\n\n---\n\n一、哪些内容依法可以进入量刑记录\n\n在联邦刑事案件的量刑阶段，法院只能考虑：\n\n庭审记录\n\n**量刑前调查报告（PSR）**及依据《刑诉规则第32条》的异议\n\n双方的量刑意见书\n\n与以下事项直接相关的材料：\n\n量刑指南（Guidelines）\n\n§3553(a) 量刑因素\n\n损失金额\n\n没收（forfeiture）\n\n赔偿（restitution）\n\n\n\n而第三方欺骗法院的指控通常涉及：\n\n非案件当事人\n\n审前或审后行为\n\n独立的法律程序（如 §853(n)、CVRA、类似 Rule 60 的程序）\n\n\n👉 这些内容原则上不属于量刑范围。\n\n\n---\n\n二、时间（Timing）是法院最重要的“过滤器”\n\n法院并不需要“否定”第三方主张来把它们排除在量刑之外 —— 时间顺序本身就是过滤器。\n\n当量刑被延期时，法院实际上传递的是：\n\n“量刑尚未成熟（not ripe）”\n\n与量刑无关或程序未到的问题属于过早或附带事项\n\n书记官和法官可以合理地不把这些问题纳入 PSR 或量刑文件\n\n\n这样，在将来上诉时，法院可以合法、真实地说明：\n\n> “这些第三方问题在量刑时并不在法院审理范围内。”\n\n\n\n这就是程序上的“隔离保护”。\n\n\n---\n\n三、PSR 被“冻结”为仅限被告的问题\n\n当量刑临近时：\n\n缓刑署会最终定稿 PSR\n\n只接受被告与政府依据 Rule 32 提出的异议\n\n第三方没有资格向 PSR 注入内容\n\n\n延长量刑的效果是：\n\n防止缓刑署被迫回应第三方指控\n\n避免 PSR 补充文件中出现非当事人行为\n\n\n结果是：\n\n✅ 最终用于量刑的 PSR\n✅ 只包含被告相关事实\n✅ 完全不涉及欺骗法院的内容\n\n\n---\n\n四、量刑文件“保持在轨道内（on-rails）”\n\n有了充足时间：\n\n辩方只能在 §3553(a) 框架内行文\n\n公诉方可反对任何试图“夹带”第三方问题的内容\n\n法官可以从容、规范地限制讨论范围\n\n\n如果量刑仓促进行：\n\n辩方可能为“保留上诉权利”硬塞第三方问题\n\n法官必须当场驳回或排除\n\n👉 这些裁定本身就会成为量刑记录的一部分\n\n\n延期可以完全避免这一风险。\n\n\n---\n\n五、法院的“回避”，但不是“驳回”\n\n这是最微妙、也是最重要的一点。\n\n延期量刑让法院可以：\n\n回避处理第三方欺骗指控\n\n不对其真实性表态\n\n不作出肯定或否定裁决\n\n\n这种姿态对于法院是最安全的。\n\n法院未来可以合法表述：\n\n> “这些问题未纳入量刑程序，如需主张，必须通过适当的第三方或判后程序提出。”\n\n\n\n从而保证：\n\n✅ 量刑记录干净\n✅ 上诉风险最小\n✅ 法院中立性完整\n\n\n---\n\n六、为什么这对上诉至关重要\n\n上诉中，辩方常见的论点是：\n\n> “量刑基于不真实或受污染的信息。”\n\n\n\n如果第三方指控曾进入量刑记录：\n\n政府必须为其辩护\n\n法官的事实认定会被严格审查\n\n发回重审（remand）风险大幅增加\n\n\n如果第三方内容完全不在记录内：\n\n上诉法院没有审查基础\n\n直接认定为“与量刑无关”\n\n\n\n---\n\n七、实际对比示例\n\n没有延期：\n\n量刑时围绕未决的第三方问题\n\n法官哪怕只是一句提及\n\n记录即被“污染”\n\n\n有延期：\n\n等第三方问题程序上被隔离\n\n量刑只处理被告问题\n\n顺序清晰：\n定罪 → PSR → 量刑 → 没收 → §853(n)\n\n\n\n---\n\n总结（一句话版）\n\n延期量刑，本质上是一种“程序隔离（procedural quarantine）”：\n\n> 它确保在量刑发生时，法院面前只剩下被告的问题；\n任何第三方问题，都被法律上定义为“不属于量刑世界”。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2b729a64dd161d7247d2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q4603532360b37f1958b5","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":903,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:49:04.838Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息] 你哪看到的？","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4603532360b37f1958b5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q72c32a013bc31dc4232d","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":904,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:50:26.901Z","text":"这个说的不全面","edited":false,"reply_to":"q2b729a64dd161d7247d2","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q72c32a013bc31dc4232d","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2b729a64dd161d7247d2","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q7e753b65c569c8e7ceb0","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":905,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:50:41.553Z","text":"如果第三方揭露的事实把整个案件的基础击穿了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7e753b65c569c8e7ceb0","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q6085af8709d18965d38c","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":906,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:50:50.330Z","text":"那你还继续量刑？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6085af8709d18965d38c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qc1f4c2a68625b1b1c180","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":907,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:51:08.724Z","text":"好像几天前在这个群里面","edited":false,"reply_to":"q4603532360b37f1958b5","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc1f4c2a68625b1b1c180","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4603532360b37f1958b5","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb1d4058524650ff86280","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":908,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:51:26.933Z","text":"那个就是我写的","edited":false,"reply_to":"qc1f4c2a68625b1b1c180","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb1d4058524650ff86280","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc1f4c2a68625b1b1c180","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf4050077b24650558130","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":909,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:51:28.335Z","text":"二巡不是说让她在合理的时间内上传第三方文件吗","edited":false,"reply_to":"q6085af8709d18965d38c","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf4050077b24650558130","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6085af8709d18965d38c","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q4bbb1d5e20ec9d576350","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":910,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:51:33.264Z","text":"是的","edited":false,"reply_to":"qf4050077b24650558130","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4bbb1d5e20ec9d576350","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf4050077b24650558130","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q73332c3ff76fc01065ce","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":911,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:51:39.002Z","text":"问题是","edited":false,"reply_to":"qf4050077b24650558130","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q73332c3ff76fc01065ce","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf4050077b24650558130","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q19ec677ab409945c7a25","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":912,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:51:50.854Z","text":"量刑延后了，合理时间就延后了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q19ec677ab409945c7a25","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qa4c9d229d1fd773ff35a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":913,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:52:02.253Z","text":"第三方说了这么程序问题 你上传了就要审理","edited":false,"reply_to":"qf4050077b24650558130","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa4c9d229d1fd773ff35a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf4050077b24650558130","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q3d02166a3a09a9d25e30","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":914,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:52:07.320Z","text":"你审理你就要推翻案件","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3d02166a3a09a9d25e30","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qdb4437368d9093a7ded2","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":915,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:52:12.047Z","text":"这是矛盾的","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdb4437368d9093a7ded2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qd474eb326cf0df9656cf","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":916,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:52:31.031Z","text":"不是啊，第三方主导不了任何事情","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd474eb326cf0df9656cf","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qd2fd8c00ce8a5c17dd80","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":917,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T04:53:05.280Z","text":"法庭上只有辩方检方法官可以主导","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd2fd8c00ce8a5c17dd80","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q3a1e341cd6a81afbdbab","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":918,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:53:55.047Z","text":"第三方击穿了法律基础 法官可以主导 但每进一步 都多一份司法违规的","edited":false,"reply_to":"qd474eb326cf0df9656cf","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3a1e341cd6a81afbdbab","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd474eb326cf0df9656cf","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q999546af052b6aa8de33","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":919,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:54:13.960Z","text":"还可以去最高法","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q999546af052b6aa8de33","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q1330b7aa1e1865027f09","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":920,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:54:46.717Z","text":"我们要求第三方文件入卷的目的 就是要给这个案件注入不同的声音 ；法官入卷了， 就要给予答复， 对不对？ 因为第三方的观点不符合她想要表达的内容，所以她才选择不入卷","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1330b7aa1e1865027f09","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q6df67ac7c57d803826ea","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":921,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:54:55.980Z","text":"对的","edited":false,"reply_to":"q1330b7aa1e1865027f09","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6df67ac7c57d803826ea","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1330b7aa1e1865027f09","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q598569468aea3ae38c48","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":922,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:54:59.523Z","text":"如果法官可以主导","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q598569468aea3ae38c48","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q40c3b7b3214c526f60cb","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":923,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:55:04.826Z","text":"就不会禁止第三方了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q40c3b7b3214c526f60cb","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf1d18da5f3295ed16037","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":924,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:57:12.379Z","text":"郭律师768文件 里面所说的多个不确定因素 就是瑞恩等第三方的 疑问还没有被理清 对不对。\n\n所以第三方的打法 非常重要。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf1d18da5f3295ed16037","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q6d92c504b0800028b0b5","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":925,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:57:30.963Z","text":"律师整个就是威胁托雷斯","edited":false,"reply_to":"qf1d18da5f3295ed16037","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6d92c504b0800028b0b5","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf1d18da5f3295ed16037","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb509c9966e95397759d2","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":926,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:57:39.101Z","text":"话里藏刀","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb509c9966e95397759d2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q4e1c6b44dbbffc7980e8","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":927,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:58:15.816Z","text":"律师的意思 就是 你不延期 我这些材料审理不完 到时候老郭上诉了 你可别怪我啊","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4e1c6b44dbbffc7980e8","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb773479083dae7ca85c8","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":928,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T04:58:25.774Z","text":"所以第三方继续往前冲。别停","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb773479083dae7ca85c8","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q4938a57dd2bce2ff555f","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":929,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:58:33.225Z","text":"我不需要律师了","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb773479083dae7ca85c8","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4938a57dd2bce2ff555f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb773479083dae7ca85c8","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q43aca3fb8419f27851a4","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":930,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:58:38.298Z","text":"老郭律师做了个态度","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q43aca3fb8419f27851a4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5d665129e53154e161a5","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":931,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T04:59:10.848Z","text":"不劳驾三位律师了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5d665129e53154e161a5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q3c22147121e3d5b1fa35","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":932,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T05:04:04.844Z","text":"王雁平是量完刑再开启的民事没收程序，但这边，是在量刑前检方自己开启的民事没收程序。不知道为何有这种区别。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3c22147121e3d5b1fa35","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qebd7c48049456f85a04b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":933,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:06:21.593Z","text":"这个东西只要寄到 只要被书记员打开","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qebd7c48049456f85a04b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q48eac5abdf0f2321c8fa","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":934,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:07:14.946Z","text":"我这东西 二巡都觉得太严重了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q48eac5abdf0f2321c8fa","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q92362f10174e1a5c44e8","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":935,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:07:19.702Z","text":"那个上去 会如何哈哈哈哈","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q92362f10174e1a5c44e8","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf1e0cfddc04220aa9889","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":936,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:07:50.639Z","text":"老郭律师想摘桃 休想 😄","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf1e0cfddc04220aa9889","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q35abed2f5c15163aef60","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":937,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T05:08:07.753Z","text":"所以每次寄文件， 我都特别享受把文件 抄送给检方 法官 郭律师方这个过程 - 因为这些文件太她奶奶的 对共匪案子不友好","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q35abed2f5c15163aef60","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q89e592fcb01537b1d05b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":938,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T05:11:58.870Z","text":"谁“可以”让第三方问题进入量刑（唯一合法路径）\n\n✅ 1️⃣ 政府（公诉方）——最常见、最关键\n\n如果且仅如果：\n\n政府认为第三方问题：\n\n直接影响损失金额\n\n影响犯罪责任范围\n\n支持量刑加重因素\n\n\n政府：\n\n正式写入 PSR 立场或量刑意见\n\n明确将其作为“被告责任事实”的一部分\n\n\n\n📌 此时：\n\n第三方问题 被政府“吸收”为案件事实\n\n法院不是在“听第三方”\n\n而是在听 政府的量刑主张\n\n\n👉 主导权在政府。\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 2️⃣ 被告 / 辩方（较少，但存在）\n\n在极少数情况下，辩方可能：\n\n引用第三方行为，目的是：\n\n减轻被告责任\n\n质疑因果关系\n\n反驳损失金额\n\n\n\n例如：\n\n“损失并非被告可预见，而是第三方独立行为造成”\n\n\n📌 这里：\n\n第三方问题是防御性证据\n\n不是第三方主张\n\n法院关注的是：被告应不应承担这部分损失\n\n\n👉 主导权在辩方。\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 3️⃣ 法院（最终守门人）\n\n即便政府或辩方引入：\n\n法院仍必须判断：\n\n是否与 §3553(a) 或量刑指南直接相关\n\n是否程序上适当\n\n是否存在“污染记录”的风险\n\n\n\n法院可以：\n\n✅ 接受\n\n✅ 限缩使用\n\n✅ 明确排除\n\n\n👉 法院始终拥有最终否决权。\n\n\n---\n\n三、第三方参与的“唯一合法姿态”\n\n第三方在量刑阶段：\n\n✅ 只能是“事实来源”（source of information）\n❌ 不能是“程序参与者”\n\n即：\n\n第三方提供材料给政府或被告\n\n是否使用、如何使用，完全由当事人决定\n\n\n一旦当事人不用： 👉 第三方材料 法律上不存在\n\n\n---\n\n四、把这一点用一句话说清楚（很关键）\n\n> 第三方不能“进入”量刑；\n只有政府或被告，才能把第三方问题“带进来”；\n而法院决定是否“让它留下”。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n五、这对你实际意味着什么（非常重要）\n\n如果你看到：\n\n第三方在大量“提出问题”\n\n但：\n\n政府没有写进 PSR\n\n被告没有在量刑意见中引用\n\n法院没有提及\n\n\n\n那么在法律上：\n\n> 这些问题“从未进入量刑”。\n\n\n\n这正是为什么：\n\n延期量刑\n\n程序隔离\n\n控制节奏\n\n\n对法院和政府而言都非常重要。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q89e592fcb01537b1d05b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q0a3e52436c8e1d582615","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":939,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:16:47.238Z","text":"你应该问 如果第三方提出的问题炸毁了案件基础怎么办","edited":false,"reply_to":"q89e592fcb01537b1d05b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0a3e52436c8e1d582615","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q89e592fcb01537b1d05b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb448af5d08fd1c53cd62","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":940,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:17:05.073Z","text":"第三方提出 司法欺诈 律师不当 程序崩溃","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb448af5d08fd1c53cd62","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q10c3a867b0c1623efa6a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":941,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:17:15.307Z","text":"报复受害者","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q10c3a867b0c1623efa6a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5a29a627de21ded2625a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":942,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:17:19.311Z","text":"法官回避","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5a29a627de21ded2625a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q00a04a0ec649f89dfd57","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":943,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T05:19:49.523Z","text":"如果第三方提出的问题真的“足以炸毁案件基础”，\n那它就已经不再是“第三方问题”，\n而是必须通过“判后纠错机制”处理的司法错误问题。\n\n\n\n👉 它不会、也不可能通过量刑被解决。\n\n\n---\n\n一、什么才叫真正“炸毁案件基础”\n\n不是任何严重指控都算。只有满足极高门槛的，才算：\n\n✅ 直接关系到定罪合法性\n\n✅ 涉及系统性欺骗法院、伪造关键证据、隐匿决定性证据\n\n✅ 如果属实，定罪在法律上无法站立\n\n\n用白话说就是：\n\n> 法院“如果当时知道这个，就不能合法判有罪”。\n\n\n\n这已经超出量刑、没收、赔偿的范畴。\n\n\n---\n\n二、即便如此，量刑仍然不是入口（关键点）\n\n原因很简单：\n\n量刑假定：定罪是合法成立的\n\n法官在量刑中没有权限反向推翻定罪\n\n在量刑中“顺带处理”这种问题 → 必然构成可撤销错误\n\n\n所以即便问题再“炸裂”，法院也会：\n\n> ✅ 保持量刑程序干净\n✅ 拒绝在量刑阶段处理该问题\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n三、法院真正会做的三种事（现实做法）\n\n✅ 1️⃣ 把问题“转移”到正确轨道（De-sequencing）\n\n法院可能（明示或暗示）：\n\n提示当事人走判后动议\n\n表示此类问题属量刑之外的程序\n\n\n👉 这是保护司法系统的做法，而不是否定问题。\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 2️⃣ 暂缓关键后续步骤（包括时间管理）\n\n注意一个微妙但重要的现实：\n\n延长量刑\n\n暂缓最终没收\n\n避免在裁定中作宽泛事实认定\n\n\n这些行为常常是：\n\n> “不碰雷，但先别炸”\n\n\n\n不是解决问题，而是避免错误扩散。\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 3️⃣ 等“具有诉讼地位的人”来提\n\n如果问题真能炸毁案件基础：\n\n✅ 被告可以动\n\n✅ 政府必须回应\n\n❌ 第三方本身仍然不能越权\n\n\n法院会等：\n\n有诉讼地位的人\n\n在正确的程序中\n\n提出该问题\n\n\n\n---\n\n四、有哪些“正确的程序入口”（核心）\n\n🔹 被告路径（最直接）\n\nRule 33（新发现证据）\n\n28 U.S.C. §2255（宪法层面错误）\n\n极端情况下的司法固有权力\n\n\n⚠️ 注意：时效、门槛极高\n\n\n---\n\n🔹 政府纠错路径（极少见，但存在）\n\n主动更正\n\n重开部分程序\n\n撤回或修改立场\n\n\n📌 历史上有，但非常罕见。\n\n\n---\n\n🔹 第三方的真实角色（关键）\n\n第三方最多只能：\n\n✅ 提供线索或材料\n✅ 触发调查\n✅ 保存证据\n\n❌ 不能提起撤销定罪的动议\n❌ 不能要求量刑法院裁决\n\n\n---\n\n五、你最需要记住的“系统保护逻辑”\n\n司法系统有一个内在自保规则：\n\n> 即使事情是真的、是核弹级的，\n也必须通过“正确的门”进入系统。\n\n\n\n否则：\n\n错误的程序 = 更大的错误\n\n案件会在上诉中被彻底搅乱\n\n法院反而会“什么都不采信”\n\n\n\n---\n\n六、非常现实的一点（可能让你安心）\n\n> 80–90% 被称为“炸毁案件基础”的第三方指控，\n并不是真的到了法律门槛，\n而是“严重但不可用于撤案”。\n\n\n\n法院对此极其谨慎。\n\n不是冷漠，而是：\n\n一旦错用程序 → 更大的系统性风险\n\n\n\n---\n\n七、一句话总结（你可以直接记住）\n\n> 能炸毁案件基础的问题，\n不会在量刑爆炸；\n它只会在判后程序里被点燃或被掐灭。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q00a04a0ec649f89dfd57","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q1ec3823abd0e7ba63a9b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":944,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:20:39.403Z","text":"你问到这里已经接近真相了 你再问：","edited":false,"reply_to":"q00a04a0ec649f89dfd57","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1ec3823abd0e7ba63a9b","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q00a04a0ec649f89dfd57","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qfbeeb596803cc0741f48","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":945,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:21:48.672Z","text":"如果受害者发现的问题足够推翻定罪 当受害者在下级法院揭露程序崩溃 下级法院打压受害者动议后 受害者直接manadamus在二巡 打1651 让二巡恢复秩序 推翻定罪 量刑又当如何","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfbeeb596803cc0741f48","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qe824fb713ebc200058bb","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":946,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:22:34.859Z","text":"我直接要求推翻量刑定罪没收保释等一切程序","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe824fb713ebc200058bb","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q46f7720a0ce609983763","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":947,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:22:48.186Z","text":"二巡法官给的现在这个裁决","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q46f7720a0ce609983763","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qbb81e67d10b3961fa4c9","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":948,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2025-12-04T05:23:24.363Z","text":"那这样郭的律师拖延量刑就没什么用了吧","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbb81e67d10b3961fa4c9","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q356a84e66f398f28a4b3","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":949,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:23:32.673Z","text":"有用","edited":false,"reply_to":"qbb81e67d10b3961fa4c9","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q356a84e66f398f28a4b3","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbb81e67d10b3961fa4c9","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q9eed7bb1625573109d03","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":950,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:23:44.590Z","text":"我可不止现在这个小打小闹的强制令","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9eed7bb1625573109d03","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf10012f9a7d45ed15dbc","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":951,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:23:57.580Z","text":"他给我更多时间准备深水炸弹","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf10012f9a7d45ed15dbc","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb1a706ad802e3f1b286b","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":952,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:24:34.433Z","text":"这个案子受害者可以直接推翻","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb1a706ad802e3f1b286b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q27ed57364f54540de478","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":953,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:24:38.154Z","text":"用不着律师","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q27ed57364f54540de478","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf83159b866324599418c","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":954,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:24:48.763Z","text":"律师休想摘桃","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf83159b866324599418c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q021c36ff5efc6b9bf366","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":955,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T05:26:38.869Z","text":"一、先给结论（非常关键）\n\n> 即使受害者发现的问题“足以推翻定罪”，\n受害者本人也几乎不可能通过在二巡依据 28 U.S.C. §1651\n直接“让二巡推翻定罪”。\n\n\n\n如果二巡真的介入并“恢复秩序”，结果通常是：\n\n✅ 要求下级法院履行程序义务（docket、审理、说明理由）\n\n✅ 或命令下级法院受理具备诉讼地位者的动议\n\n❌ 几乎不会直接替代被告，径行撤销定罪\n\n\n\n---\n\n二、逐步拆解你描述的路径\n\n你描述的是这个链条（我逐一回应）：\n\n> ① 受害者发现足以推翻定罪的问题\n② 在地区法院揭露“程序崩溃”\n③ 地区法院压制 / 拒绝受害者动议\n④ 受害者直接去二巡，用 §1651\n⑤ 要求二巡“恢复秩序”、推翻定罪\n⑥ 那量刑怎么办？\n\n\n\n下面是真实法律世界的回应。\n\n\n---\n\n三、第 ①～③ 步：问题是真问题，但人不是“对的人”\n\n即便问题客观上“足以推翻定罪”：\n\n✅ 问题本身可能严重\n\n❌ 受害者不是刑事被告\n\n❌ 受害者没有撤销定罪的诉讼地位（standing）\n\n\n所以在地区法院：\n\n法院可以合法拒绝：\n\ndocket\n\n审理\n\n或作实体裁决\n\n\n\n这在法律上不等于否认“问题不存在”，而是：\n\n> “你不是在这个程序、以这个身份，向我提这个问题的人。”\n\n\n\n—\n\n四、第 ④ 步：§1651 在二巡到底能干什么？\n\n✅ §1651 能做的（现实、有限）\n\n二巡可以用 §1651：\n\n纠正下级法院拒绝行使管辖权\n\n命令下级法院：\n\ndocket 文件\n\n给出理由\n\n按规则处理\n\n\n\n📌 这是“程序复位”，不是“结果改判”。\n\n\n---\n\n❌ §1651 通常不能做的\n\n二巡极少会：\n\n❌ 直接撤销刑事定罪\n\n❌ 直接接管事实认定\n\n❌ 把第三方变成刑事当事人\n\n\n原因只有一句话：\n\n> 刑事定罪只能由具备诉讼地位的人，通过法定判后救济路径攻击。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n五、那如果二巡真的认定“程序已经崩溃”呢？\n\n这是你问题中最关键、也最容易被误解的地方。\n\n✅ 最现实的结果路径（99%）\n\n如果二巡强烈认定：\n\n地区法院存在系统性程序失灵\n\n有“严重但未被正确通道提出”的问题\n\n\n二巡最可能会：\n\n1. 发回（remand）\n\n\n2. 命令地区法院：\n\n受理合格主体（被告）的申请\n\n说明为何拒绝 / 或必须审理\n\n\n\n3. 可能附带：\n\n强烈措辞\n\n监督性指令\n\n\n\n\n📌 重点：\n👉 不是替代裁判，而是逼“正确的人走正确的门”。\n\n\n---\n\n六、那量刑怎么办？（你的原问题核心）\n\n✅ 情形一：二巡尚未作出实质性裁定（最常见）\n\n量刑：\n\n✅ 可以延期\n\n✅ 或继续进行，但会非常谨慎\n\n\n地区法院通常：\n\n避免作广泛事实认定\n\n避免最终没收\n\n以免将来出现冲突\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 情形二：二巡命令“暂停相关程序”\n\n如果二巡明确表示：\n\n下级法院在关键程序上存在问题\n\n\n则下级法院通常会：\n\n暂缓量刑\n\n或中止某些裁定\n\n\n📌 但这是因程序秩序，而非第三方实体主张。\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 情形三：被告后来正式启动判后救济并获得支持（极罕见）\n\n如果最终：\n\n被告依据 Rule 33 / §2255 成功\n\n定罪被撤销或重审\n\n\n那么：\n\n> 量刑自动失效（vacated as moot）\n\n\n\n不是“被第三方推翻”，\n而是被告的合法救济成功。\n\n\n---\n\n七、一句非常重要、现实的话\n\n> 在刑事程序中，\n“谁提出问题”和“问题有多严重”同样重要。\n\n\n\n哪怕问题是核弹级：\n\n❌ 错的人\n\n❌ 错的门\n→ 也只会得到“程序回避”\n\n\n\n---\n\n八、一句终极总结（直接回答你问的）\n\n> 即使受害者发现足以推翻定罪的问题：\n\n二巡用 §1651 能做的是恢复程序秩序\n\n而不是直接推翻定罪\n\n量刑要么延期、要么谨慎继续\n\n真正推翻定罪，只能由被告通过判后救济完成\n\n一旦定罪被撤销，量刑自然一并作废","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q021c36ff5efc6b9bf366","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q99d8dee3af0067bc94e2","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":956,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:27:36.025Z","text":"你再问 难道1651的程序修复不包括定罪吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":"q021c36ff5efc6b9bf366","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q99d8dee3af0067bc94e2","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q021c36ff5efc6b9bf366","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q8a977b7218e8c9f65510","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":957,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:28:02.231Z","text":"难道vacate conviction 不属于修复程序吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8a977b7218e8c9f65510","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q8ca593d2bf9b9633431e","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":958,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:28:36.758Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 受害者直接推翻定罪是允许的","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8ca593d2bf9b9633431e","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q0916b8cab098e5adfa26","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":959,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:28:40.334Z","text":"就是用1651","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0916b8cab098e5adfa26","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qc7e8ab48f512608632d2","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":960,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:28:50.085Z","text":"当这个案子荒唐到一定程度 就可以用","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc7e8ab48f512608632d2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q547b5a6adac8fe925279","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":961,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:29:07.166Z","text":"就是二巡可能不敢自己创造新程序 得最高法干","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q547b5a6adac8fe925279","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q875bd0d40e2f75510217","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":962,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:29:57.883Z","text":"法律上允许 程序上真空","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q875bd0d40e2f75510217","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q343095af585340e4ddfc","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":963,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:30:12.989Z","text":"但如果案子荒唐 最高法制造新例也肯定可以","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q343095af585340e4ddfc","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q2b089c49c45272a57bee","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":964,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T05:30:44.880Z","text":"“vacate conviction（撤销定罪）当然属于‘修复程序’——\n但它属于‘终局性、实体性的修复’，不是 §1651 意义下的‘秩序修复’。”\n\n\n\n下面把这个区别讲透。\n\n\n---\n\n一、先给核心区分（这是关键）\n\n法律上有两种完全不同层级的“修复程序”：\n\n✅ （A）程序秩序修复（procedural repair）\n\n纠正：\n\n不 docket\n\n不审理\n\n不履行法定义务\n\n\n目的：\n\n让该走的程序能走下去\n\n\n工具：\n\n28 U.S.C. §1651（All Writs Act / mandamus）\n\n\n\n👉 修的是“轨道”，不是“结果”。\n\n\n---\n\n✅ （B）实体结果修复（substantive correction）\n\n纠正：\n\n非法定罪\n\n违宪裁决\n\n结构性错误\n\n\n目的：\n\n撤销、重审、改判\n\n\n工具：\n\nRule 33\n\n28 U.S.C. §2255\n\n上诉实体审查\n\n\n\n👉 修的是“终局结果”。\n\n\n---\n\n二、为什么 vacate conviction 不属于 §1651 的“修复”\n\n你问得非常精准：\n\n> “难道 vacate conviction 不属于修复程序吗？”\n\n\n\n属于修复。\n但属于另一类修复。\n\n🔑 关键原因只有一个：\n\n> §1651 不能绕过国会设立的“专用救济通道”。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n三、法院对 §1651 的铁律（真实司法态度）\n\n联邦法院长期明确：\n\n> All Writs Act 是“填补空白”的工具，\n不能取代已存在的法定救济机制。\n\n\n\n也就是说：\n\n✅ 如果不存在其他救济路线 → §1651 可以用\n\n❌ 如果国会已规定救济路线（如 §2255） → §1651 不能横插一刀\n\n\n而 vacate conviction 恰恰就是：\n\n国会已经精确立法的领域\n\n且有严格门槛、时效、主体限制\n\n\n\n---\n\n四、那为什么“看起来”像是在修复程序？\n\n因为在现实中，撤销定罪“修复”的不是一个普通程序错误，而是整个司法结果。\n\n从体系角度看：\n\n程序性错误 → 修轨道\n\n结构性/宪法性错误 → 推倒重建\n\n\n法院不允许：\n\n> 用修轨道的工具，\n达到推倒重建的效果。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n五、一个对比，马上就清楚了\n\n✅ 可用 §1651 的情形\n\n法院拒绝 docket\n\n法院拒绝行使管辖权\n\n法院违反明确的程序义务\n\n\n👉 修的是：“你必须工作”\n\n\n---\n\n❌ 不可用 §1651 的情形\n\n“这个定罪从根上就是错的”\n\n“证据是伪造的，所以判决无效”\n\n“陪审团过程违宪，应撤销定罪”\n\n\n👉 这不是“你没工作”，\n👉 而是“你的工作结果必须被推翻”。\n\n\n---\n\n六、那有没有极端例外？（你可能在想这个）\n\n几乎没有。\n\n理论上，只有在以下近乎不存在的情形下，法院才可能讨论：\n\n没有任何法定救济渠道\n\n没有任何当事人有资格提出\n\n继续维持定罪将构成正在进行的司法违法\n\n\n但现实中：\n\n§2255、Rule 33 几乎覆盖所有情形\n\n被告永远是合格主体\n\n\n👉 所以 §1651 不会被用来 vacate conviction。\n\n\n---\n\n七、量刑为什么会成为“缓冲区”（回扣你的前一问）\n\n这也解释了之前那一点：\n\n法院宁可：\n\n延期量刑\n\n维持现状\n\n\n也不会：\n\n用错误的工具做正确的事\n\n\n\n因为如果法院：\n\n在 §1651 程序中实质撤销定罪\n→ 那本身就是新的可撤销错误\n\n\n\n---\n\n八、一句话总结（非常重要）\n\n> Vacate conviction 是“终极修复”，\n§1651 只是“修复通道”。\n法院绝不会用修通道的工具，\n去改写终局结果。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2b089c49c45272a57bee","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q2f463553d8b8d638dda1","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":965,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2025-12-04T05:31:20.489Z","text":"瑞恩也可以直接把这个炸弹给郭/律师， 让他们出具这个证据， 直接要求撤案。不跟检方扯了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2f463553d8b8d638dda1","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q7c65426bc01b44977fc2","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":966,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:36:23.479Z","text":"没有例外 可以创造 最高法有权限","edited":false,"reply_to":"q2b089c49c45272a57bee","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7c65426bc01b44977fc2","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2b089c49c45272a57bee","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qe377b7299392c2c4e570","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":967,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:36:30.084Z","text":"法律规定可以","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe377b7299392c2c4e570","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5b9f47f459a58e354f8a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":968,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:36:35.037Z","text":"只是没有人这么干过","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5b9f47f459a58e354f8a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q253cb1030bcc905f5599","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":969,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T05:38:32.679Z","text":"在极端情况下，也许会有特例，但是必须证明没有任何其他救济手段","edited":false,"reply_to":"q7c65426bc01b44977fc2","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q253cb1030bcc905f5599","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7c65426bc01b44977fc2","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q58912a3592fc71bbd279","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":970,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:39:22.263Z","text":"因为这个案子有律师不当 律师对抗程序崩溃","edited":false,"reply_to":"q253cb1030bcc905f5599","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q58912a3592fc71bbd279","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q253cb1030bcc905f5599","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q2aaf4ef831f15700233c","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":971,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:39:38.268Z","text":"如果老郭律师继续装死我觉得是可以干成的","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2aaf4ef831f15700233c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q9a60f69c1f00a13c996c","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":972,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:39:48.793Z","text":"但如果复活 那就干不成了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9a60f69c1f00a13c996c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5e9847aecbd047e83732","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":973,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T05:40:27.805Z","text":"这都是机器人提供的信息，仅供参考","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5e9847aecbd047e83732","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qa4791cbad577821dd578","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":974,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:40:37.877Z","text":"二巡也没有对我的1651有任何反对","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa4791cbad577821dd578","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qafb9138a5d0140259e36","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":975,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:40:49.047Z","text":"给的判决也相当有利","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qafb9138a5d0140259e36","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5e82234a5dabee1d996c","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":976,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:42:36.656Z","text":"绝不能把这个炸弹给律师","edited":false,"reply_to":"q2f463553d8b8d638dda1","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5e82234a5dabee1d996c","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2f463553d8b8d638dda1","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q91a777db785e9121a5a9","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":977,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:42:48.838Z","text":"给了律师一定石沉大海","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q91a777db785e9121a5a9","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf0e8b1ec926610ccc0fe","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":978,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T05:46:18.177Z","text":"司法欺诈 三年来 三波律师没发现 被我发现了 这句话 就把这案子直接变成建国以来最大的司法丑闻","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf0e8b1ec926610ccc0fe","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q94446575bebfe08c8687","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":979,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T05:50:08.440Z","text":"二巡的意思是，地区法院必须走完案件流程，上诉法院才能接管案件并推翻全部程序错误，那个时候，被告律师就算不提出要求纠正，第三方也可以提出。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q94446575bebfe08c8687","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qad5312bf936701b94536","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":980,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T05:50:58.128Z","text":"所以到时，律师理论上无法不干活。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qad5312bf936701b94536","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qdb2786d8d1826b80521c","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":981,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T05:54:27.888Z","text":"被告被抓时，我说的最终一定是撤案，我当时认为是审判前。现在看来，可能猜对了结果，没有猜对过程。现在越来越往那个方向在走。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdb2786d8d1826b80521c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qe3e798f095ee042dc828","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":982,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T05:55:08.791Z","text":"就算到了二巡，也必须是被告律师提出吧","edited":false,"reply_to":"q94446575bebfe08c8687","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe3e798f095ee042dc828","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q94446575bebfe08c8687","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q561dabb5b0bcd8985825","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":983,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2025-12-04T05:56:21.138Z","text":"法条上第三方也可以。目前为止没有先例。因为美国历史上的案件没有这么荒唐过，法庭上的所有人都是被告的敌人安排过来进行司法表演。","edited":false,"reply_to":"qe3e798f095ee042dc828","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q561dabb5b0bcd8985825","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe3e798f095ee042dc828","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q157e848b7399985b2927","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":984,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:08:41.627Z","text":"对的","edited":false,"reply_to":"q561dabb5b0bcd8985825","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q157e848b7399985b2927","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q561dabb5b0bcd8985825","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q6ec7627bd1ade7f26c33","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":985,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T06:08:59.947Z","text":"看看是不是真会走到那一步","edited":false,"reply_to":"q561dabb5b0bcd8985825","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6ec7627bd1ade7f26c33","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q561dabb5b0bcd8985825","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q612c8dc540a67867b1d4","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":986,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:13:28.998Z","text":"上最高法 最高法很有希望开创先例","edited":false,"reply_to":"q6ec7627bd1ade7f26c33","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q612c8dc540a67867b1d4","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6ec7627bd1ade7f26c33","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q01102c398ce60b57d580","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":987,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T06:14:26.618Z","text":"一、简短结论（最重要）\n\n> 如果被告律师确实极端无能，并且拒绝提出“欺骗法院（fraud upon the court）”的问题，\n法律体系并不允许受害者或第三方在量刑阶段或直接上诉中代替被告“补救”。\n\n\n\n相反，法律制度强制把问题推迟到判后救济程序中解决，即使这意味着延误。\n\n\n---\n\n二、为什么制度必须这样运作（核心原则）\n\n刑事诉讼有一条极其严格的规则：\n\n> 定罪只“属于”被告本人。\n\n\n\n这意味着：\n\n只有被告（通过律师或自行出庭）可以直接攻击定罪；\n\n即便论点是正确的，只要由错误的主体提出，在法律上就是“不可见的”。\n\n\n因此，当辩护律师拒绝提出欺骗法院的问题时，制度将其视为：\n\n> 辩护失败（defense failure），而不是允许第三方介入的理由。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n三、法院在程序中“假定”的前提（即便现实中可能不成立）\n\n在没有明确记录之前，法院会推定以下情形之一成立：\n\n1. 律师作出了策略性选择\n\n\n2. 律师认为该主张法律上薄弱或风险过高\n\n\n3. 律师打算日后提出\n\n\n4. 律师确实错了 —— 但这要在判后阶段处理，而不是当下处理\n\n\n\n👉 法院不会在案件进行中评判辩护律师是否称职，除非出现极端、公开的情形。\n\n\n---\n\n四、不会发生的事情（非常重要）\n\n如果辩护律师拒绝提出欺骗法院：\n\n❌ 受害者不能代替被告\n❌ 第三方不能强行把问题塞进量刑\n❌ 法院不会因第三方文件而自行启动审查\n❌ §1651 不能被改造成“替代辩护”的工具\n\n这样做会：\n\n破坏对抗式制度；\n\n制造新的可撤销错误；\n\n违反司法角色分工。\n\n\n\n---\n\n五、真正可能发生的补救路径（现实中的法律手段）\n\n✅ 1️⃣ 无效辩护（Ineffective Assistance of Counsel, IAC）——主要救济\n\n如果律师的失职达到了极端程度：\n\n这构成第六修正案问题\n\n通过以下方式提出：\n\n28 U.S.C. §2255（最常见）\n\n有时与 Rule 33（新证据）结合\n\n\n\n关键点是：\n\n> 欺骗法院 + 律师拒绝提出 = 无效辩护问题，\n而不是第三方问题。\n\n\n\n如果成立：\n\n定罪可被撤销；\n\n程序可在合格律师参与下重新开始。\n\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 2️⃣ 法院的有限固有权力 —— 极其罕见\n\n法院只有在以下条件同时满足时，才可能自行介入：\n\n欺骗行为直接针对法院本身；\n\n欺骗事实无可争议、证据确凿、属于结构性错误；\n\n若忽视将使法院本身成为不正义的共犯。\n\n\n这种情况极其罕见。\n法院通常避免这样做，因为：\n\n没有当事人请求会引发上诉风险；\n\n会破坏司法中立。\n\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 3️⃣ 政府自我纠错（极少见，但存在）\n\n在极端情况下：\n\n检方可能自行更正；\n\n程序可能被重新开启；\n\n定罪可能被重新审查。\n\n\n但这一点：\n\n完全取决于检方；\n\n第三方无法强制；\n\n实务中非常罕见。\n\n\n\n---\n\n六、受害者 / 第三方可以做、但安全的事情\n\n受害者可以：\n\n✅ 保存证据\n✅ 向以下机构提交材料：\n\n司法部职业责任办公室（OPR）\n\n监察机构\n\n律师纪律委员会\n✅ 建立可核查的书面记录\n✅ 等待判后程序开启\n✅ 在 §2255 / Rule 33 程序中提供支持材料\n\n\n必须避免做的事情：\n\n❌ 试图强迫法院“现在就处理”\n❌ 试图劫持量刑\n❌ 要求法院绕过被告律师\n❌ 用 mandamus 直接要求撤销定罪\n\n这些行为几乎一定会适得其反。\n\n\n---\n\n七、为什么法院会容忍“律师沉默或失职”（残酷但真实）\n\n因为另一条路径更糟糕。\n\n如果法院在案件进行中频繁介入辩护质量：\n\n判决将永远无法稳定；\n\n上诉体系会陷入混乱；\n\n每个案件都可能被反复重开。\n\n\n制度选择的代价是：\n\n> 优先终局性，延后纠错。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n八、那量刑怎么办？\n\n如果律师保持沉默、问题未通过正确程序出现：\n\n量刑可能继续，或谨慎延期；\n\n定罪暂时有效；\n\n若之后成立无效辩护：\n\n> 定罪与量刑将一并被撤销（一起作废）\n\n\n\n\n📌 量刑并不等于认可。\n📌 它只是程序上的继续。\n\n\n---\n\n九、一句话总结（你可以直接记住）\n\n> 当辩护律师发生灾难性失职时，\n法律把它当作宪法侵权，\n不是给第三方“接管案件”的许可。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q01102c398ce60b57d580","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q8c1785a963ca03b40a9a","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":988,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:18:46.675Z","text":"这个不是法院 而是二巡或者最高法","edited":false,"reply_to":"q01102c398ce60b57d580","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8c1785a963ca03b40a9a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q01102c398ce60b57d580","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q13ebf1fab865ca0f6576","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":989,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:18:53.554Z","text":"因为做这个事情不可能在南区","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q13ebf1fab865ca0f6576","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qcc357a43a8dd291d6982","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":990,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:19:09.585Z","text":"虽然南区 托雷斯有sua sponte权限可以用 但她肯定不可能自己打脸","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qcc357a43a8dd291d6982","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qcb6aa9ed337f4a598814","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":991,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:19:26.145Z","text":"你要直接问最高法","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qcb6aa9ed337f4a598814","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qbb6932bf9e99c82e4ffb","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":992,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T06:23:29.701Z","text":"先给出最重要的一句话结论\n\n> 在量刑结束后，如果被告律师仍然拒绝基于“欺骗法院（fraud upon the court）”提出上诉，\n第三方仍然不能直接攻击定罪。\n但第三方并非毫无作为——其角色会从“诉讼主导者”转变为**“程序催化者与记录保存者”**。\n\n\n\n下面是量刑之后第三方“能做什么 / 不能做什么”的真实法律路线图。\n\n\n---\n\n一、仍然不可能发生的事情（必须说清）\n\n即使已经量刑，第三方仍然：\n\n❌ 不能对定罪提起直接上诉\n❌ 不能在被告的刑事上诉中提出“欺骗法院”\n❌ 不能强迫上诉律师提出特定论点\n❌ 不能用 mandamus（§1651）来撤销定罪\n❌ 不能取代无能或消极的辩护律师\n\n👉 量刑并不会凭空产生此前不存在的诉讼地位（standing）。\n\n\n---\n\n二、量刑之后真正发生改变的事情\n\n量刑完成后：\n\n案件在直接上诉层面进入“终结状态”\n\n判后救济机制正式开启\n\n律师拒绝作为的行为，开始具备可识别的宪法伤害（而不仅是“策略选择”）\n\n\n这使第三方获得了间接但实质性的影响空间。\n\n\n---\n\n三、最关键的转折点：律师失职成为“无效辩护（IAC）”问题\n\n如果辩护律师拒绝提出并非无理取闹、且可能决定性结果的“欺骗法院”主张：\n\n👉 这种拒绝就可能构成第六修正案意义上的无效辩护。\n\n但注意：\n\n只能由被告本人来主张该救济\n\n第三方不能代为提出\n\n\n第三方此时可以做的事：\n\n✅ 收集证据\n✅ 整理欺骗行为的完整记录\n✅ 保存关键时间线\n✅ 提供宣誓声明（affidavits）\n✅ 为 §2255 动议准备“可直接使用”的材料包\n\n📌 换句话说：\n\n> 你不再是“去说服法院”，\n而是在搭建判后救济所需的证据骨架。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n四、正确的法律落点：§2255（Rule 33 仅限极少情况）\n\n🔹 28 U.S.C. §2255（主要、标准路径）\n\n这是“欺骗法院 + 律师拒绝提出”的正统归宿。\n\n第三方的角色：\n\n提供宣誓证言\n\n提供文件证据\n\n证明“实质性影响（materiality）”\n\n证明律师沉默不合理\n\n证明结果性损害（prejudice）\n\n\n若 §2255 获准： ➡️ 定罪与量刑将一并被撤销。\n\n\n---\n\n🔹 Rule 33（极少且受时间限制）\n\n仅在以下情况下适用：\n\n欺骗行为构成新发现证据\n\n满足严格的时间要求\n\n\n第三方不能提交动议，但可以提供证据。\n\n\n---\n\n五、无需依赖辩护律师的第三方可行行动（常被忽视，但非常现实）\n\n✅ A. 触发机构审查（Institutional Review）\n\n第三方可以向以下机构提交材料：\n\n美国司法部职业责任办公室（OPR）\n\n司法部监察长（IG）\n\n检方内部的证据/合规审查部门\n\n\n为什么重要：\n\n检方负有持续存在的 Brady / Giglio 披露义务\n\n若欺骗影响政府陈述，司法部必须纠正\n\n\n实践中，这条路径有时比法院更早起作用。\n\n\n---\n\n✅ B. 保存上诉与判后记录（Record Preservation）\n\n第三方可以：\n\n提交不请求裁决的通知性文件\n\n提交信函并明确：\n\n> “仅为记录与告知，不请求任何救济”\n\n\n\n\n目的只有一个：\n\n> 避免日后出现“从未有人提出过该问题”的说法。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n✅ C. 启动民事或纪律程序（不直接攻击定罪）\n\n如果存在：\n\n虚假声明\n\n伪造证据\n\n律师或中介严重不当行为\n\n\n第三方可以：\n\n提起适当的民事行动（如可行）\n\n向律师协会投诉\n\n在正确的场所请求制裁\n\n\n这些不直接撤销定罪，\n但在整体纠错中非常关键。\n\n\n---\n\n六、如果被告始终什么都不做，会发生什么？\n\n这是残酷但真实的答案：\n\n> 即便欺骗确实存在，只要没有具备诉讼地位的人\n走正确的程序提出，定罪就会继续有效。\n\n\n\n法院不会“主动拯救”一个沉默的被告。\n\n\n---\n\n七、法院在“暗中观察”的内容（很重要）\n\n法官确实会注意到：\n\n辩护的持续沉默\n\n异常扎实的第三方记录\n\n对关键问题的长期回避\n\n\n但法院会等待：\n\n§2255\n\nRule 33\n\n或政府纠错\n\n\n否则，法院自行行动本身就会构成新的可撤销错误。\n\n\n---\n\n八、实务清单：第三方实际应该做什么\n\n如果量刑已结束，律师仍拒绝作为：\n\n✅ 固定证据（时间戳、原件、保管链）\n✅ 准备宣誓声明\n✅ 记录律师拒绝行为\n✅ 明确“欺骗 → 实质性 → 结果性损害”的逻辑链\n✅ 为 §2255 整理完整材料\n✅ 提交不具攻击性的机构披露\n✅ 避免干扰上诉\n✅ 避免用 mandamus 要求撤罪\n\n\n---\n\n九、你必须记住的一句话\n\n> 量刑之后，第三方的力量\n不在于直接推翻定罪，\n而在于：\n一旦正确的程序之门被打开，\n推翻定罪就变成无法回避的结果","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbb6932bf9e99c82e4ffb","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q5c6596fa63cf8ff20599","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":993,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:27:15.684Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息]  你要查 如果第三方mandamus上诉到最高法","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5c6596fa63cf8ff20599","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qb8039e5d19c0514ec71d","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":994,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:27:49.391Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息]  最高法确定可以推翻定罪 这个时候还要等被告走程序推翻吗？","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb8039e5d19c0514ec71d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q84da4018799991ab035c","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":995,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:27:55.548Z","text":"1651","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q84da4018799991ab035c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qd57959c05ea262042d47","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":996,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T06:30:21.714Z","text":"简短但非常关键的答案先给出：\n\n> 是的，原则上“仍然要由被告走法定程序来推翻定罪”。\n即使最高法院在第三方的 mandamus（§1651）案件中明确认定“该情形依法可以／必须导致定罪被推翻”，\n最高法院几乎也不会直接替被告撤销定罪本身。\n\n\n\n下面把**原因、现实中会发生什么、以及“唯一可能的例外”**讲清楚。\n\n\n---\n\n一、为什么即便到最高法院，也“不能直接替被告撤罪”\n\n1️⃣ 核心宪法原则：诉讼地位（standing）与当事人一致性\n\n刑事定罪是被告个人的判决。合法逻辑是：\n\n✅ 权利主体 = 被告\n\n✅ 救济对象 = 被告的自由 / 定罪\n\n❌ 第三方 ≠ 可以直接获得“撤销定罪”的裁决对象\n\n\n哪怕最高法院认为：\n\n下级法院严重违法\n\n程序已经崩溃\n\n如不纠正将损害司法完整性\n\n\n👉 最高法院仍然会说：\n“谁有权获得结果性救济？”——只有被告。\n\n\n---\n\n二、那最高法院“认定可以推翻定罪”到底意味着什么？\n\n这里非常容易被误解。最高法院能做、但通常只会做的是：\n\n✅ 1️⃣ 作出法律定性裁断\n\n例如明确说：\n\n该类行为构成 fraud upon the court\n\n下级法院的做法违反了宪法 / 基本程序\n\n该错误不是无害错误（not harmless）\n\n继续维持定罪将违宪\n\n\n📌 这是法理层面的“结论”，不是执行层面的“结果”。\n\n\n---\n\n✅ 2️⃣ 下达强制性的程序性指令\n\n最高法院可能命令：\n\n下级法院必须受理正确的动议\n\n不得再拒绝 docket\n\n不得以“第三方身份”为由拒绝审理\n\n必须在 X 时间内处理被告提出的救济\n\n\n👉 这是**“秩序修复 + 路线指引”**。\n\n\n---\n\n三、那为什么还“要等被告走程序”？\n\n因为这是体系安全阀。\n\n如果最高法院：\n\n在第三方 mandamus 案中\n\n直接撤销一个刑事定罪\n\n\n将带来三个灾难性后果：\n\n1. ❌ 绕过国会设定的 §2255 / Rule 33 架构\n\n\n2. ❌ 让“第三方”获得被告的宪法救济\n\n\n3. ❌ 制造极其不稳定的刑事终局性先例\n\n\n\n所以最高法院会选择更“硬但干净”的做法：\n\n> 我会告诉你“结果必须是什么”，\n但我不会替你走最后那一步程序。\n\n\n\n\n---\n\n四、现实中最可能出现的“三段式结局”\n\n如果真出现你描述的极端情况，现实最可能是这样：\n\n🔹 第一段：最高法院（第三方案件）\n\n明确裁定：\n\n> “该类型的错误依法足以推翻定罪”\n\n\n\n严厉批评下级法院\n\n命令恢复/开启正确程序\n\n\n\n---\n\n🔹 第二段：下级法院（被告的正统程序）\n\n被告提起：\n\n§2255\n\n或 Rule 33（若适用）\n\n\n下级法院：\n\n几乎没有裁量空间\n\n按最高法院法律结论执行\n\n\n\n📌 此时被告胜诉几乎是**“自动完成”**。\n\n\n---\n\n🔹 第三段：结果\n\n✅ 定罪被 vacate\n\n✅ 量刑随之作废（automatically vacated）\n\n✅ 案件按指示重启或终结\n\n\n\n---\n\n五、有没有真·例外？（极少且理论层面）\n\n理论上只有一种几乎不存在的情况：\n\n> 如果没有任何被告有能力或机会提起法定救济，\n且继续维持定罪本身构成正在进行的宪法违法，\n最高法院才可能考虑极端的固有权力。\n\n\n\n现实中：\n\n§2255 几乎永远可用\n\n被告永远是合格主体\n\n\n👉 所以这条几乎不会发生。\n\n\n---\n\n六、直接回答你问的那一句（可以记住）\n\n> 即便最高法院在第三方 mandamus 中认定“依法必须推翻定罪”，\n执行这一结果的“最后一锤”，\n仍然要由被告通过正统的判后程序来完成。\n\n\n\n不是因为形式主义，\n而是因为这是防止整个刑事体系崩溃的“结构性规则”。\n\n\n---\n\n七、顺带回答你没明说、但一定关心的点\n\n❓ 那量刑怎么办？\n\n在最高法院定性裁断之后：\n\n下级法院通常会中止执行\n\n或等待被告程序\n\n\n最终：\n\n定罪一旦被 vacate\n\n量刑自动随之消失","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd57959c05ea262042d47","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q52374dd38a2ecddfca51","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":997,"speaker":"rui***","date":"2025-12-04T06:32:25.094Z","text":"［用户 him***］  老郭律师继续躺 不就变成这样了嘛？","edited":true,"reply_to":"qd3da0efe4614c57ca083","reply_status":"out_of_scope","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q52374dd38a2ecddfca51","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复的附件未收录","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qf7e8d4193faea0acfbef","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":998,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T06:32:31.357Z","text":"不是","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf7e8d4193faea0acfbef","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"q8a255e3318c1d6008fbf","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":999,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T06:33:15.570Z","text":"只要被告本人有能力申请推翻案件，法院就不可能让其他人做","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8a255e3318c1d6008fbf","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"},{"id":"qba1805c82ffb2a18377f","batch_id":"batch-000060","seq":1000,"speaker":"him***","date":"2025-12-04T06:33:37.943Z","text":"郭律师不作为，郭可以提出无效辩护","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qba1805c82ffb2a18377f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000060"}],"prev_batch_id":"batch-000059","next_batch_id":"batch-000061"}