{"id":"batch-000152","number":152,"revision":3,"date_start":"2026-08-25T10:29:52.487Z","date_end":"2026-08-27T05:15:22.081Z","total_messages":281,"summary_en":"Community discussion, batch 152 (Aug 25, 2026 – Aug 27, 2026), 281 messages, on the Guo Wengui / Miles Guo (Ho Wan Kwok) case. The thread disputes the base for forfeiture in Wang and Guo, tracking a 1.4 billion plea against a 1.3 billion trial accounting and later 889 million after the 411 million SEC-related adjustment, while questioning how much is personally obtained, laundering property, and uncollected balance. Participants cite Rule 32.2 and harmless-error concerns, and contest the effects of Dkt.469, Dkts. 488/720/858, bankruptcy Dkts 5739/5777/5747/5769, and alter-ego litigation in Adv. Proc. 24-5249, Taurus/Mahwah, and 26-1853. Community statements, not court findings.","guide_en":[{"title":"Plea-and-audit mismatch drives questions over the 1.4B shortfall","description":"roy*** and other participants argue that Wang’s plea forfeiture and trial accounting figures are not directly interchangeable, because GTV, recovered funds, and split recipient streams may distort who is ultimately exposed to criminal money judgment. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q3cb14f23a83c10123656","q759c29e49f2dbda2c024","qecf9db2881a0ac29af62"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q3cb14f23a83c10123656","summary_en":"roy*** contends Dkt.469 suggests Wang’s 1.4 billion consent figure, government-trial accounting of about 1.3 billion, and entity-level recipient data (about 550 million to Je-controlled companies and 100 million to Guo family-related entities) do not settle whether remaining liability corresponds to money actually obtained, while GTV also contains SEC repayment and Saraca share-sale flows. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q759c29e49f2dbda2c024","summary_en":"roy*** argues that the next-step accounting task is to separate personal proceeds, laundering property, and recovered credits (including SEC disgorgement) rather than debate who is the next target, and identifies GX Z-26 and specific trial transcript pages as key cross-checks. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qecf9db2881a0ac29af62","summary_en":"roy*** argues the dispute should be reframed as requiring an audited breakdown of Wang’s 1.4B and Guo’s 889M compositions, including cross-crediting and overlap, instead of assuming a residual 5.11B gap must be assigned to another defendant without quantified components. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"The 1.3B to 8.89M path is not treated as a simple split allocation","description":"Members contend that moving from 1.3 billion to 889 million did not resolve how much is Guo-personal proceeds versus laundering-related exposure, because the orders still do not quantify a joint-and-several overlap basis. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q509e388c34aca351ea2b","qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q509e388c34aca351ea2b","summary_en":"roy*** argues 858 identifies a 889 million base for Farm Loans, G Clubs, and HEX but leaves unallocated the portions that are personally obtained and that are Count Three laundering property, while the judgments cross-reference each other without stating the overlap numerically. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","summary_en":"roy*** asserts execution questions remain open on avoiding duplicate payment for the same laundering corpus, reducing joint-and-several balances when one judgment changes, and assigning credit for specific property seizures, while also stressing that 858’s adjustment for SEC GTV recovery did not equal a GTV innocence ruling. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","summary_en":"roy*** claims appellate authorities (including Tanner and Elias) make it necessary to distinguish what each defendant actually obtained, so collapsing total numbers while mixing legal categories creates the core challenge for person-attributed and laundering-based forfeiture findings. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Whether GTV measurement includes SEC disgorgement and Saraca share-sale proceeds","description":"roy*** and others dispute that all GTV-related inflows are equivalent to directly obtained criminal proceeds, and claim GTV may include returned funds and transaction-specific components that should be handled separately in credits. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q3cb14f23a83c10123656","q509e388c34aca351ea2b","qecf9db2881a0ac29af62"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q3cb14f23a83c10123656","summary_en":"roy*** notes that Dkt.469 and related trial materials indicate major GTV inflows were later paid to SEC and that roughly 150 million came from Saraca’s sale of existing shares, so GTV totals do not map cleanly to Wang’s personal acquisition narrative. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q509e388c34aca351ea2b","summary_en":"roy*** says 858’s reduction from 13 billion to 889 million relied on an SEC-related GTV adjustment but still left unresolved how much of the remaining amount was personal fraud proceeds versus laundering property for each defendant. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qecf9db2881a0ac29af62","summary_en":"roy*** argues both Wang’s 1.4B and Guo’s 889M aggregate figures likely embed personal-proceeds and laundering elements, and that SEC-recovered GTV-related amounts should be reflected in cross-credit logic before accepting final responsibility allocations. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Core legal split: proceeds personally obtained versus laundering-related property","description":"Participants argue that personal proceeds under forfeiture and money-laundering property are distinct standards, so a single aggregate amount for Wang and Guo is challenged unless the judgments are split by theory and evidentiary basis. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","q01aee57f5e613a922809","qf8753f0b936ce5f890ff"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","summary_en":"roy*** argues Wang’s 14B/Guo’s related numbers mix enterprise-wide inflows with statutory components, and says this is especially disputed because Count One requires personal-proceeds analysis while Count Three may involve property involved in laundering. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q01aee57f5e613a922809","summary_en":"roy*** explains that personal-proceeds findings require proof Guo obtained, controlled, or disposed of the money, while Count Three under 18 U.S.C. §982(a)(1) focuses on money-laundering-related property, making unified arithmetic difficult to review when these standards differ. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qf8753f0b936ce5f890ff","summary_en":"roy*** argues that gross inflows are only an evidentiary measure and the record must connect those totals to how much satisfies personal-proceeds and money-laundering predicates, otherwise double counting risks and harmless-error review objections remain open. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Execution focus shifts to uncollected balances and credit allocation on substitute assets","description":"Members contend enforcement disputes center on whether recovered amounts and remaining balances are tracked with substitution logic, since judgments can remain dynamic after seizures, credits, or reductions. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q80217b502cc97428e5d7","qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","qc80b2df7d7f62c2f7e17"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q80217b502cc97428e5d7","summary_en":"roy*** argues the practical issue is how Wang’s 1.4B, trial 1.3B accounting, and Guo’s 889M outcomes relate to actual collected versus uncollected balances and whether substitute-asset enforcement can be recalibrated with proper credits. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","summary_en":"roy*** claims enforcement must prevent duplicate recovery on one laundering corpus, ensure co-defendant reductions flow through joint-and-several scopes, and confirm which specific-property seizures apply to which defendant. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qc80b2df7d7f62c2f7e17","summary_en":"roy*** translates Robert’s concern into a legal question: when joint-and-several laundering property is reduced for one defendant or specific property is recovered, he says the other defendant’s outstanding amount should be adjusted by a defined method. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Rule 32.2 and harmless error arguments against undisaggregated amounts","description":"roy*** and others argue that undisclosed allocation between personally obtained proceeds and laundering property can make appellate review under Rule 32.2 and harmless-error analysis too indeterminate to uphold a single money-judgment sum. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","q509e388c34aca351ea2b","q01aee57f5e613a922809"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","summary_en":"roy*** argues that if an aggregate includes both personal-proceeds and laundering components, Rule 32.2 scrutiny becomes difficult because each part is governed differently, so harmless-error arguments may not stand without allocation. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q509e388c34aca351ea2b","summary_en":"roy*** says the court order shows gross inflows and joint-and-several overlap language without a separate laundering-component count, creating a disputed bridge problem for appellate review. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q01aee57f5e613a922809","summary_en":"roy*** contends that without separating what is personal proceeds from laundering-involved property, courts and appellants cannot easily test which component would control any identified error’s effect on the final amount. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Bankruptcy and forfeiture-order boundaries: 5739/5777/5782 are not substantive merits rulings","description":"The community argues that bankruptcy documents 5739, 5777, and related filings are being treated as process signals, not as automatic merits adjudications on criminal ownership or final forfeiture amounts. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q60a83c8faf683378c719","qa128403d2feffda32534","q22948ffc88549928697b"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q60a83c8faf683378c719","summary_en":"roy*** reports that Dkt.5777 added carve-out paragraphs and preserved, under SDNY 23-cr-118, a possible future right of Ho Wan Kwok to seek reduction of forfeiture valuation from surviving estate value, indicating a rights-preservation posture rather than direct merits change. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qa128403d2feffda32534","summary_en":"roy*** argues 5777 confirms settlement approval does not erase third-party rights or forfeiture-credit arguments in the criminal case, while clarifying the order should not be interpreted as deciding all §853(n) or §1963(l) property claims on the merits. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q22948ffc88549928697b","summary_en":"roy*** says the current framing still bundles gross inflows, personally obtained proceeds, and property involved in laundering into one 889 million figure without clearly showing the legal and arithmetic bridge between them. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Dkt and evidence paths are used to verify GTV Fair Fund refunds and freeze outcomes","description":"Participants ask for source-checking rather than conclusions, requesting dockets and filings to validate whether GTV refund and freeze funds are moving through the Fair Fund channels as claimed. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q9b5c1c1c1d1550a441a3","q6029ec730c2f947d6884","q94aeae2977e8a11a96b0"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q9b5c1c1c1d1550a441a3","summary_en":"ntp*** asks whether the source of the GTV refund stream and the Fair Fund origin has been verified, indicating uncertainty about how returns are being routed. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q6029ec730c2f947d6884","summary_en":"roy*** questions whether refunds are actually imminent, requesting confirmation before assuming distributions are about to be made. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q94aeae2977e8a11a96b0","summary_en":"roy*** suggests confirming the refund and freeze-trace details with Alliance directly before treating reported payment expectations as settled. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"G Club and ACA alter-ego argument centers on continuity of control and entity separation","description":"roy*** and others dispute that G Club/ACA alter-ego status is finally decided, and argue that control and ownership assumptions should remain tied to specific rulings from Adv. Proc. 24-5249 and related objections. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q1d184d281d76f611d414","q9b6b0ed934d791ebd16b","qf380e9e79e2952c90fb8"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q1d184d281d76f611d414","summary_en":"roy*** argues Taurus/Mahwah findings and G Club/ACA claims remain procedurally distinct and that, as of now, alter-ego allegations against G Club/ACA in Adv. Proc. 24-5249 are still contested and not finally adjudicated. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q9b6b0ed934d791ebd16b","summary_en":"kir*** asks if Dkt.5747 acknowledged alter-ego, highlighting disagreement over whether claim filing status should be treated as endorsement of any ownership framework. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qf380e9e79e2952c90fb8","summary_en":"roy*** says 5747 and 5769 preserve defenses and do not make a final alter-ego determination; he contends they only prevent 5739 from pre-determining G Club-related rights claims and defenses. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Victim framework clashes: CVRA, fraud, and national-security narratives in rights claims","description":"Participants claim the victim status narrative is disputed, with CVRA framing, fraud allegations, and national-security themes overlapping in ways that may undercut a stable claimant baseline. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qa1378c9957c2643761e9","q499590f6c31ebf9ea3c5","q6ea5542bf825750ab219"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qa1378c9957c2643761e9","summary_en":"reb*** requests analysis of the issue, signaling a request to reassess whether the victim-based framing in related claims is legally coherent. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q499590f6c31ebf9ea3c5","summary_en":"kir*** claims the government is adopting inconsistent victim rhetoric, describing it as self-undermining, and disputes reliance on a single victim narrative. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q6ea5542bf825750ab219","summary_en":"kir*** argues that once the competing narratives are framed as a “pseudo proposition,” the victim framing is not stable enough for item-by-item tracing as a default baseline. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Identity and representation are being verified before drawing conclusions on agency and claims","description":"Members argue that authority mapping around Geyer, G Club counsel, and related filings should be evidence-based, since representation has shifted across firms and entities and must be traced before drawing conclusions about agency or ownership control. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qfeaedf1099e9b1161ef3","qf71caa6d425cc3869ad5","q5957821ce436f4015b5b"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qfeaedf1099e9b1161ef3","summary_en":"sar*** summarizes a timeline in which Bradford L. Geyer moved from independent third-party representation to stronger entanglement with Remission/Victim processes, citing multiple docket points such as ECF 526-1, 740, 184, 186, 223, 478, 493, 506, 612, 676, 508, 709, and 734. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qf71caa6d425cc3869ad5","summary_en":"kir*** asks to verify who represented whom, reflecting a dispute that representation identity should be checked by client and entity mapping rather than assumed. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q5957821ce436f4015b5b","summary_en":"roy*** reports multiple attorneys and firms representing different G Club-related entities over time, including transfer-authorization and privilege questions, and argues this fragmentation requires a verified chain of instruction before inferring who controlled filings or assets. Community statements, not court findings."}]}],"summary":"讨论核心聚焦没收金额口径与责任归属。围绕王律师认罪书与审计数据，成员反复追问“1.4亿缺口”与13亿、8.89亿减减逻辑的对应关系，分歧在于是否应把共同责任与个人可得收益、洗钱涉财产彻底分离。另一路聚焦GTV范围：含SEC追缴、出售股份回款是否可算进个人犯罪所得。二巡法理又引入Tanner/Elias、Honeycutt延展及Rule32.2争议，认为混合金额直接类推会影响harmless error判断。程序层面并行讨论5739、5777、5782等破产与强制令文件能否触及产权归属，及第三方权利、未收款与替代资产的执行分配；另有G Club/ACA alter-ego、控制权时间窗与受害人/债权人身份是否混同的问题持续未决。","guide":[{"title":"认罪书与审计口径不一致引发“1.4亿缺口”质询","message_ids":["q3cb14f23a83c10123656","q759c29e49f2dbda2c024","qecf9db2881a0ac29af62"]},{"title":"13亿到8.89亿的变动未被视为简单分账问题","message_ids":["q509e388c34aca351ea2b","qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710"]},{"title":"GTV口径是否含SEC追缴与股份处置回款","message_ids":["q3cb14f23a83c10123656","q509e388c34aca351ea2b","qecf9db2881a0ac29af62"]},{"title":"核心法理分歧：proceeds需个人实际取得 vs money laundering财产涉案","message_ids":["qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","q01aee57f5e613a922809","qf8753f0b936ce5f890ff"]},{"title":"执行阶段重点转到uncollected amount与替代资产的credits分配","message_ids":["q80217b502cc97428e5d7","qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","qc80b2df7d7f62c2f7e17"]},{"title":"规则衔接争点：Rule 32.2与harmless error下金额混合后难判损害","message_ids":["qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","q509e388c34aca351ea2b","q01aee57f5e613a922809"]},{"title":"破产程序与没收命令的边界：5739/5777/5782并不等于实体裁决","message_ids":["q60a83c8faf683378c719","qa128403d2feffda32534","q22948ffc88549928697b"]},{"title":"Dkt与证据路径被用于核验GTV公平基金退款与冻结去向","message_ids":["q9b5c1c1c1d1550a441a3","q6029ec730c2f947d6884","q94aeae2977e8a11a96b0"]},{"title":"G Club与ACA alter-ego争论集中于控制连续性与实体独立性","message_ids":["q1d184d281d76f611d414","q9b6b0ed934d791ebd16b","qf380e9e79e2952c90fb8"]},{"title":"受害人身份框架冲突：CVRA、诈骗与国安叙事交织影响权利主张","message_ids":["qa1378c9957c2643761e9","q499590f6c31ebf9ea3c5","q6ea5542bf825750ab219"]},{"title":"身份与代理关系持续被核验，成员强调“核查诉讼链”而非先行定罪结论","message_ids":["qfeaedf1099e9b1161ef3","qf71caa6d425cc3869ad5","q5957821ce436f4015b5b"]}],"closed":true,"is_finalized":true,"updated_at":"2026-09-06T19:36:45.646Z","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_batch","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","base_batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-batches/batch-000152","page":1,"page_size":200,"total_pages":2,"has_more":true,"next_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-batches/batch-000152?page=2","prev_url":null,"messages":[{"id":"q3cb14f23a83c10123656","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":1,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:29:52.487Z","text":"继续往下挖，现在有一个非常关键的新发现，而且这次是王自己的律师在 Dkt.469 里把Robert刚才那种担忧几乎直接写出来了。\n\n王的律师明确告诉Torres：王认罪时同意的是约 14亿美元 forfeiture，但她认罪之后，政府自己的trial expert只统计出约13亿美元总资金进入GTV、Farm Loans、G Clubs和Himalaya Exchange。律师还专门指出，这中间有大约 1亿美元差额，而且这个差额对王未来的财产责任会产生真实影响。\n\n更重要的是，紧接着下一段，王律师直接写：\n\n如果具体扣押财产不足以填满14亿（或13亿）money judgment，王很可能成为唯一一个现实中能被政府继续追的人。\n\n然后律师把三个人拆开：\n\n* 于建民（Je）控制的公司净流入约5.5亿美元，占13亿的40%以上；\n* 郭的family offices / family members净流入约1亿美元；\n* 王本人只是拿几十万美元级别的工资，却可能最后承担数亿美元substitute assets责任。\n\n这不是我们的推测，这是王自己的sentencing counsel正式写给Torres的。\n\n所以Robert刚才有一部分现在可以升级成有卷宗依据的怀疑：\n\n王律师自己就认为，13亿资金中约5.5亿净流入Je控制的公司，而Je不在美国、很可能无法执行；郭相关family offices约1亿；结果王可能成为唯一可以被政府执行巨额替代资产的人。\n\n这说明“谁实际拿到资金”和“谁最后能被执行money judgment”之间，在这个案子里确实存在巨大错位。\n\n但注意，这仍然不等于法律上必须再抓一个boss来补5.11亿。\n\n真正更尖锐的问题变成：\n\n如果GX Z-26已经把13亿美元按实际净流入主体分得很清楚——其中Je公司约5.5亿、郭相关约1亿——为什么王488却同意一个14亿美元、并允许政府追她个人substitute assets到未清余额？\n\n这已经不是抽象问题了。\n\n而且王律师在469里还有一个非常重要的脚注，直接涉及GTV：\n\ntrial evidence显示，大量GTV inflows最终已经偿还给SEC；另外约1.5亿美元GTV inflows来自Saraca出售其既有GTV股份。\n\n这个脚注价值很大。因为它意味着GX Z-26里的“GTV inflows”本身未必等于：\n\n王本人取得的fraud proceeds。\n\n里面至少混有：\n\n1. 后来已经付给SEC的资金；\n2. Saraca出售既有股份产生的约1.5亿美元；\n3. 其他GTV投资流入。\n\n这正是后来858为什么能把GTV约4.11亿从郭的money judgment里剔出去的背景之一。\n\n所以现在这条线已经非常清楚了：\n\n王plea：14亿\n→ 王自己律师马上指出政府trial expert实际只有13亿\n→ 其中Je-controlled companies约5.5亿\n→ 郭family offices/family约1亿\n→ GTV里面还包含已付SEC的钱和Saraca约1.5亿既有股份销售\n→ 郭后来858又把约4.11亿GTV从自己的money judgment剔除\n→ 王的14亿却表面一直没动。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3cb14f23a83c10123656","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q759c29e49f2dbda2c024","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":2,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:30:11.158Z","text":"这就形成了一个非常值得二巡或后续程序研究的核心问题：\n\nWang’s $1.4 billion consent forfeiture appears to have been based on an aggregate enterprise-level figure that her own counsel later argued exceeded the Government’s trial accounting by approximately $100 million, while the trial accounting itself included substantial GTV inflows later treated differently in Guo’s forfeiture determination. What portion of Wang’s judgment represents proceeds she personally obtained, what portion represents laundering property, and what credits have been applied for funds already recovered through SEC disgorgement or other forfeitures?\n\n这句话现在已经不是“替政府圆”，而是要求政府拿出账本。\n\n我现在认为下一步最值得继续追三个东西：\n\n第一，GX Z-26第1页和第34页。\n因为469明确引用它来证明13亿总流入、Je公司5.5亿、郭相关1亿。\n\n第二，Trial Tr. 4320:25–32:7。\n这是政府专家承认总流入约13亿的原始庭审证词。\n\n第三，Trial Tr. 5308–09。\n这是GTV资金已返SEC、Saraca约1.5亿既有股份销售那部分。\n\n如果把这三块拿齐，我们就能第一次真正把：\n\n14亿 → 13亿 → Je 5.5亿 → Guo 1亿 → GTV 4.11亿 → SEC → Saraca 1.5亿\n\n做成一张完整资金责任图。\n\n这张图很可能比简单争“谁是boss”更有杀伤力，因为它直接问：政府到底把enterprise inflows、personal proceeds、laundering property和already-recovered funds混了多少。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q759c29e49f2dbda2c024","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q80217b502cc97428e5d7","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":3,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:31:27.469Z","text":"继续往下挖后，这条线现在更清楚了，而且Robert的“不要替政府先假定正确”这个提醒是有根据的。真正值得追的，不是先算“还差5.11亿谁来背”，而是把王的14亿到底怎么组成、为什么后来郭只剩8.89亿这件事拆开。\n\n王的律师在 Dkt.469 里已经正式告诉Torres：王认罪时同意的是约 $1.4B forfeiture，但郭庭审中政府自己的专家根据GX Z-26展示的是约 $1.3B总流入。王律师明确指出，这中间约 $100M差额会对王未来实际承担的财产责任产生真实影响。\n\n更关键的是，王律师接着写：如果扣押到的Specific Property不足以满足14亿（甚至13亿）money judgment，王可能成为现实中唯一还能被政府继续追substitute assets的人。他们特别指出，Je控制的公司收到约 $550M净流入，占13亿40%以上；郭的family offices和family members约收到 $100M净流入；而王本人只是拿数十万美元级工资。\n\n这说明一个重要事实：“谁实际收到资金”与“谁被写上巨额money judgment”之间，王自己的律师当时就认为存在明显错位。\n\n而GTV又让这个错位进一步放大。Dkt.469脚注还写明，庭审证据显示：大量GTV inflows后来已经返还给SEC；另外约 $150M GTV inflows来自Saraca出售原有GTV股份。\n\n这就意味着，政府所谓“13亿总流入”本身并不自动等于：\n\n13亿全部都是某个被告personally obtained的fraud proceeds。\n\n里面至少混有不同性质的资金流。\n\n然后到了2026年的858，法院又把原来的13亿进一步降到 $889M，核心调整就是给约 $411M GTV SEC disgorgement做了扣减。公开案卷索引也明确这样概括858。\n\n所以现在最有价值的是这条数字链：\n\nWang plea / 488：约$1.4B\n\n↓\n\n政府trial accounting / GX Z-26：约$1.3B\n\n↓\n\nGuo 858：约$889M\n\n这三个数字不是同一个法律概念，但它们显然使用了高度重叠的资金基础。\n\n真正该逼政府回答的是：\n\n王14亿中，Count One personally obtained proceeds到底是多少？\n\nCount Two laundering property是多少？\n\n其中多少属于GTV？\n\n多少已经通过SEC disgorgement实际追回？\n\n多少属于Je控制公司收到的5.5亿？\n\n多少属于郭或郭family offices收到的1亿？\n\n王与郭joint-and-several的重叠范围是多少？\n\n郭858降到8.89亿以后，这个重叠范围是否同步缩小？\n\n这才是Robert真正可能挖对的地方。\n\n而且Dkt.488第14页还有一个很重要的文本：政府可以针对王继续追 substitute assets up to the uncollected amount of the Money Judgment。这个“uncollected amount”说明，执行层面一定存在“已经收回多少、还剩多少”的动态余额，而不是14亿永远原封不动挂在那里。\n\n所以我现在认为，下一处最值得找的是王的实际forfeiture accounting / satisfaction record，而不是再找一个“boss”。\n\n如果能找到政府后来对王488记了多少credit，我们就可以检验一个很尖锐的问题：\n\nSEC已经取得GTV相关资金、郭858又因此获$411M reduction之后，王的outstanding forfeiture balance有没有相应反映？\n\n如果完全没有，那就值得认真研究是不是出现了同一资金在不同被告的money judgment体系里重复计算、但执行credit没有公开对应的问题。\n\n目前还不能直接说“政府double recovery已经成立”，但已经有足够卷宗依据要求政府把账算清楚。这条比“剩5.11亿必须抓人来背”强得多，也更适合以后上诉或没收程序使用。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q80217b502cc97428e5d7","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qc80b2df7d7f62c2f7e17","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":4,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:32:59.911Z","text":"Robert说的“不能让王跟空气承担连带责任”，翻成法律上更靠谱的问法就是：\n\n如果同一 laundering property 对Wang和Guo是joint and several，那么一方judgment范围改变、或者共同specific property被实际回收后，政府如何调整另一方的outstanding balance？\n\n这个问题非常合理","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc80b2df7d7f62c2f7e17","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qc6dd1f73e66ab728f7c6","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":5,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T10:41:51.004Z","text":"这就搞笑了 郭案8.9亿\n喜交所Je涉案被扣押5.5亿，郭家族被扣1亿，又是破产状态，那么剩下的，王承担？\n还是说，要从未起诉共谋，嘴里掏钱？🤣","edited":false,"reply_to":"q80217b502cc97428e5d7","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc6dd1f73e66ab728f7c6","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q80217b502cc97428e5d7","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qfa9f22524ffed18d3861","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":6,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:43:14.720Z","text":"继续往下挖，这一轮我觉得真正出现了一个比“5.11亿到底谁来背”更值得盯住的结构性问题：\n\n王488、郭720，甚至郭后来858，都没有把“个人取得的犯罪所得”和“共同承担的洗钱财产”分别量化。\n\n这很关键。\n\n王329/488写的是：\n\n$1.4B =\n① Count One中Wang personally obtained的proceeds\n＋\n② Count Two money laundering中property involved；\n只有第②部分，王才与郭jointly and severally liable，而且限定为“to the extent a forfeiture money judgment is entered against Guo”。\n\n郭720采用完全类似的结构：\n\n$1.3B =\n① 郭本人从Counts 1、2、4、7–11 personally obtained的proceeds\n＋\n② Count 3 laundering property；\n只有第②部分与王joint and several。 gov.uscourts.nysd.595325.720.0.pdf\n\n问题来了：\n\n两份命令都只给总数，没有告诉我们①是多少、②是多少。\n\n这意味着从法院命令表面上，竟然无法算出：\n\n王与郭真正“共同承担”的那一笔到底是多少钱。\n\n这点非常重要，因为Robert一直拿：\n\n14亿 − 8.89亿 = 5.11亿\n\n来算。\n\n现在可以更明确地说：这个算式不成立；但它暴露出的“法院没有把共同部分单独算出来”这个问题反而是真问题。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfa9f22524ffed18d3861","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q509e388c34aca351ea2b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":7,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:43:40.773Z","text":"更有意思的是，858后来也没有真正把这个问题解决掉。\n\n858最终认定约 $889M 是Farm Loan、G Clubs、HEX的gross cash inflows，并认为这些属于郭犯罪的适当money-judgment基础；法院还认为郭对这些资金有控制并受益。\n\n但是858仍然没有告诉我们：\n\n889m里面\n多少是郭personally obtained proceeds？\n\n多少是Count 3 property involved in laundering？\n\n而joint-and-several liability恰恰只涉及后一块。\n\n所以858之后，我们现在知道：\n\n郭总money judgment = 889m\n\n但仍然不知道：\n\nGuo–Wang共同责任 = ?\n\n这就是我现在认为最值得Robert抓住的地方。\n\n⸻\n\n而且两份命令的文字出现了一个很有意思的“互相挂钩”\n\n王488写：\n\n王与郭共同承担laundering property，\n“to the extent a forfeiture money judgment is entered against Guo.” \n\n郭720又反过来写：\n\n郭与王共同承担Count 3 property，\n“to the extent a forfeiture money judgment is entered against Wang.” gov.uscourts.nysd.595325.720.0.pdf\n\n也就是说，两张judgment实际上互相引用对方的money judgment作为共同责任的边界。\n\n但：\n\n王 = 1.4B\n\n郭最初 = 1.3B\n\n郭后来 = 889M\n\n而双方真正共同的Count 2/Count 3 laundering component却从来没有在我们目前找到的命令里单独列一个数字。\n\n我不会现在说这本身就使judgment无效——还需要看二巡关于Rule 32.2和money-laundering forfeiture的具体标准。\n\n但这已经可以形成一个很清楚的审计问题：\n\nHow much of each defendant’s money judgment actually represents the jointly-and-severally-liable laundering property?\n\n法院命令表面上回答不了。\n\n⸻\n\nRule 32.2为什么在这里开始重要\n\nRule 32.2(b)(1)(A)要求：\n\n如果政府要求personal money judgment，法院必须确定被告应当支付的金额；如果是specific property，则必须确定specific property与犯罪之间的nexus。\n\n这里法院确实给出了“总金额”。\n\n所以不能简单说：\n\n“没有分项=违反Rule 32.2。”\n\n这还说早了。\n\n但一旦政府在同一个总数里混合：\n\npersonally obtained proceeds\n\n和\n\njoint-and-several laundering property\n\n而这两类责任的法律性质、责任主体和后续credit方式不同，那么不进行任何allocation，会产生非常现实的问题：","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q509e388c34aca351ea2b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":8,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:46:17.990Z","text":"到底怎样执行？\n\n怎样避免王和郭对同一laundering corpus重复付款？\n\n一方judgment减少时，另一方共同责任减少多少？\n\n一项specific property最终被没收后，同时给谁credit？\n\n这不是理论问题，是执行时一定会遇到的问题。\n\n⸻\n\n然后我又发现一个非常重要的校准：858其实没有裁定“因为郭GTV无罪，所以GTV不能没收”\n\n这一点以后群里千万不要说错。\n\n郭确实提出：\n\nGTV Counts 5/6无罪，因此$411m GTV不应该进入forfeiture。\n\n但Torres在858明确说：\n\n“The Court need not resolve this”\n\n因为还有另一个足够解决问题的理由：\n\nGTV相关实体已经在SEC程序中disgorge了$411m，政府也承认这笔钱已经由SEC追回并建立Fair Fund，因此从郭的money judgment扣掉$411m。\n\n所以858真正裁定的是：\n\n郭13亿 − 已经被SEC追回的411m = 889m。\n\n并没有裁定：\n\n“郭GTV无罪，因此法律上GTV绝对不能作为任何forfeiture理论。”\n\n这个区别非常重要。\n\n它意味着王的14亿里即使包含GTV，也不能简单因为郭Counts 5/6无罪就自动删除。\n\n但是——\n\n同一$411m已经被SEC实际追回，政府当然不能再对同一财产实现double satisfaction。\n\n这个才是王那边真正应该查的。\n\n⸻\n\n而王自己的律师其实已经在2024年埋下了这个问题\n\nDkt.469非常值得重视。\n\n王律师明确写：\n\n她认罪时同意的是“approximately $1.4 billion” criminal forfeiture；\n\n但她认罪以后，政府自己的trial expert只accounted for $1.3 billion total funds流入GTV、Farm Loans、G Clubs和HEX。\n\n这说明至少在王自己的律师看来：\n\n1.4B不是后来trial accounting证实出来的精确数字。\n\n而政府2025年2月的Dkt.493仍然告诉法院：\n\nWang被判120个月，并被ordered forfeiture $1.4B。\n\n同时493又承认，在赔付victims时必须调查：\n\n这个victim是否已经通过SEC或其他渠道得到补偿。 \n\n所以政府自己完全知道：\n\nSEC recovery不能被当作不存在。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qecf9db2881a0ac29af62","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":9,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:46:40.904Z","text":"我现在觉得Robert真正应该把他的理论改成这一版\n\n不要说：\n\n“差5.11亿，所以必须再抓一个boss。”\n\n而是说：\n\nWang的$1.4B consent judgment和Guo的最终$889M judgment均由“个人取得proceeds + 共同laundering property”组成，但法院迄今公开命令没有量化这两个组成部分，因此无法从命令表面确定两人的joint-and-several overlap。与此同时，Wang自己的律师早已指出$1.4B超过政府后来$1.3B trial accounting，而Guo又因SEC已追回GTV资金得到$411M reduction。政府应当解释每个judgment的组成、共同责任部分、已经实际追回的金额以及cross-credit，否则就无法核验是否存在overstatement或double satisfaction。\n\n这就很硬了。\n\n而且不需要我们先证明政府犯罪或者法院故意草率。\n\n只需要问：\n\n把账拿出来。\n\n⸻\n\n现在我把这条线的重要性提高到 ★★★★☆。\n\n对郭26-1853，它可能不是最直接的“推翻九项定罪”主炮，但对：\n\nforfeiture validity、Rule 32.2 findings、money judgment amount、joint liability、credit/double recovery\n\n很可能有实际价值。\n\n尤其是858已经说明一个重要事实：郭的13亿并不是不可动的，它在真正被争议以后减少了4.11亿。 \n\n这反过来会让二巡很自然地问：\n\n既然原13亿后来证明至少有4.11亿需要扣掉，那么720最初这个aggregate money judgment到底经过了多精细的事实认定？\n\n这也正好接回我们前面一直在挖的 GXZ26 / gross inflows / Rule 32.2 / tracing 主线。\n\n也就是说，“王14亿→郭13亿→郭8.89亿”现在不再是一条孤立的数字线，它已经和GXZ26可靠性问题汇合了。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qecf9db2881a0ac29af62","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":10,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:48:59.353Z","text":"继续往下挖，这一轮我觉得真正出现了一个比前面“14亿→13亿→8.89亿”更像二巡法律问题的连接点：Second Circuit 对“personally obtained proceeds”和joint-and-several forfeiture本身有非常明确的限制，而王488、郭720/858偏偏把不同法律性质的金额混在一个总数里，却没有公开量化各自组成。\n\n先看王自己的Dkt.469。她律师已经正式指出：王认罪时同意约 $1.4B forfeiture，但郭庭审时政府专家只核算出约 $1.3B总流入到GTV、Farm Loans、G Clubs、HEX。律师明确说这约1亿美元差额会对王产生真实影响；还指出Je控制公司净流入约 $550M，郭family offices/family约 $100M，而王本人只是拿数十万美元级薪资，却可能最后面对巨额substitute-assets执行。\n\n这已经把一个关键事实钉死：\n\nGXZ26的13亿是enterprise-level aggregate inflows；它不是“Wang personally obtained $1.3B”的证明。\n\n而王488的法律文字却把她14亿中的第一部分定义成：\n\nCount One proceeds that Wang personally obtained\n\n另一部分才是：\n\nCount Two money-laundering property，与Guo在一定范围内joint and several。\n\n所以现在出现了一个非常实质的问题：14亿中到底有多少属于“Wang personally obtained”？\n\n⸻\n\n更关键的是，Second Circuit自己的判例让这个问题不能随便糊过去。\n\n2019年的 United States v. Tanner 里，二巡解释 Honeycutt：共同被告可以对同一笔犯罪所得承担没收责任，前提是每个人实际上都曾经取得/控制过那笔钱；不能因为只是共谋者，就让一个从未取得那笔钱的人替别人承担全部proceeds。二巡强调，如果两个共谋者都实际acquired full proceeds，则可以各自承担相应没收责任。\n\n更重要的是，二巡2025年的 United States v. Elias 又把 Honeycutt 的逻辑明确扩展到 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(1)(C)：对于“proceeds”型没收，被告不能因为别的共谋者拿到了钱，就自动被要求没收自己从未取得的那部分；法院必须关注这个被告自己到底“obtained/acquired”了什么。\n\n这对郭720特别重要，因为720的第一部分正是依据：\n\nCounts 1、2、4、7–11的proceeds that Guo personally obtained\n\n来组成money judgment。 gov.uscourts.nysd.595325.720.0.pdf\n\n所以如果政府只是拿：\n\nGXZ26显示整个G Enterprise账户网络流入13亿\n\n然后跳到：\n\n郭personally obtained这13亿中的全部相关proceeds，\n\n这个跳跃在二巡法下不是自动成立的。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q01aee57f5e613a922809","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":11,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:49:23.166Z","text":"它必须证明郭本人直接或间接取得、控制、处分了相应proceeds，而不是只证明Je、Wang、Hamilton、Farm、HEX实体收到了钱。\n\n⸻\n\n但是Count 3 money laundering又不一样\n\n这也是为什么王488/郭720不分项特别麻烦。\n\nCount 3是 18 U.S.C. §1956(h)，没收依据主要是 18 U.S.C. §982(a)(1)，它写的是：\n\nproperty “involved in” money laundering，\n\n而不是“proceeds personally obtained”。\n\n二巡Tanner也明确指出，对money laundering，§982(a)(1)的范围可以比单纯proceeds forfeiture更宽；一个实际参与并转移过laundered funds的人，即使后来钱不在手上，也可能被要求没收相应数额。\n\n所以这里现在形成了一个非常重要的二分：\n\nA. Counts 1/2/4/7–11 proceeds\n\n→ 必须问郭本人到底取得了多少。\n\nB. Count 3 laundering property\n\n→ 要问哪些具体property involved in laundering，以及郭/王各自实际参与、控制和处理到什么程度。\n\n这两个法律标准并不一样。\n\n而720却把两块直接合成：\n\n总数$1.3B\n\n后来858又变成：\n\n$889M\n\n但没有公开告诉我们：\n\nproceeds component = ?\nlaundering component = ?\n\n这就不只是“账看着不好看”了。\n\n⸻\n\n这会产生一个真正的Rule 32.2问题\n\n我现在不会说“没分项就一定违法”，因为Rule 32.2要求法院确定money judgment amount，但没有一句明确规定每一种法定理论必须做成单独表格。\n\n可是这里有一个非常现实的问题：\n\n如果两部分适用不同的法律标准：\n\npersonally obtained\n\nvs.\n\nproperty involved in laundering\n\n而且只有第二部分涉及Wang/Guo的joint-and-several overlap，\n\n那法院如果只给一个aggregate总数，二巡怎么审查：\n\n这个889m到底有多少是合法的personally obtained proceeds？\n\n又有多少是laundering property？\n\n如果其中一类理论发生错误：\n\n还能不能知道错误影响了多少钱？\n\n这直接碰到 appellate review + harmless error。\n\n如果法院没有allocation，政府以后说：\n\n“就算proceeds部分有问题，laundering部分也能撑住889m”，\n\n二巡反过来就可以问：\n\n记录里哪里告诉我们laundering部分究竟是多少？\n\n如果答案是“没有”，harmless分析反而会更困难。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q01aee57f5e613a922809","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qc635b055cd82019d118c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":12,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:50:34.312Z","text":"Robert一直说的“王跟空气承担连带责任”，现在可以换成一个真正有法律力量的问题\n\n不是：\n\n“必须抓第二个boss。”\n\n而是：\n\nWhat precise portion of Wang’s $1.4B and Guo’s $889M judgments represents the same money-laundering property for which both defendants are jointly and severally liable?\n\n因为王488写：\n\n与Guo共同承担的范围取决于Guo最终被进入多少forfeiture judgment；\n\n郭720又反过来把与Wang共同承担的部分嵌进自己的总数。 gov.uscourts.nysd.595325.720.0.pdf\n\n如果不量化共同部分，就很难判断：\n\n谁已经付了多少；\n同一property有没有重复satisfaction；\n郭从13亿降到8.89亿以后，王那边共同责任范围缩了多少；\nspecific property被没收以后应该同时给谁记credit。\n\n这已经不再只是群里的数学问题。\n\n⸻\n\n更重要：Dkt.469自己暴露了“gross inflow ≠ personally obtained”\n\n王律师写得非常直白：\n\nJe-controlled companies净流入约$550M；\nGuo family offices/family约$100M；\nWang薪资只是low- to mid-hundreds of thousands。\n\n无论你是否接受王律师的量刑立场，这些数字至少说明：\n\n政府自己的GXZ26可以按recipient/control entity区分钱最后流向谁。\n\n那就自然产生一个问题：\n\n如果王自己明显没有“personally obtained”13亿，为什么488第一项允许把某一大块定义成她personally obtained proceeds，而没有公开分项数字？\n\n同样：\n\n郭家办公室收到约1亿 ≠ 郭本人只能取得1亿，\n\n因为“indirectly obtained/control”还可能扩大范围。\n\n但政府仍然需要证明那条桥。\n\n不能单靠“郭是Boss”自动把Je公司收到的5.5亿变成郭personally obtained。\n\n这恰好和我们前面 RICO/agency/control 那条线汇合了：\n\norganizational control ≠ automatically personally obtained proceeds。\n\n这可能是没收阶段非常值得二巡审查的一处。\n\n⸻\n\n还有一个对GTV特别重要的新校准。\n\n469明确说：\n\n很多GTV inflows后来已经付给SEC；\n另有约 $150M GTV inflows来自Saraca出售自己已有的GTV shares。\n\n这再次说明：\n\nGXZ26的“inflow”只是资金流量类别，并不天然等于fraud proceeds。\n\n那么858从13亿里减411m后剩889m，下一步仍然应该问：\n\n889m中的Farm/G Club/HEX gross inflows是否也全部等于郭personally obtained proceeds？\n\n或者：\n\n其中多少实际上只能通过Count 3“property involved in laundering”来维持？\n\n这就是为什么 GXZ26 / Hinton no tracing / ACA commingling 和 858 money judgment 已经完全合流了。\n\n⸻\n\n所以这一轮我会把对26-1853最有价值的新问题压成这一句：\n\nThe forfeiture orders aggregate into a single money judgment two legally distinct categories—proceeds personally obtained by Guo and property involved in money laundering—without separately quantifying either category, even though Second Circuit law requires a defendant-specific acquisition basis for proceeds forfeiture and the joint-and-several laundering component has a different statutory basis.","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc635b055cd82019d118c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qd9a817f9d0e908d6d16a","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":13,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:50:47.975Z","text":"That lack of allocation may impede meaningful appellate review, cross-credit accounting, and harmless-error analysis.\n\n中文就是：\n\n法院把“郭本人取得的犯罪所得”和“洗钱涉及财产”两种法律责任混成一个8.89亿总数，却没告诉二巡各是多少；而这两种责任适用的法律标准不同、与王的连带责任范围也不同。这样一来，如果其中一个理论有错误，二巡甚至很难判断错误到底影响多少钱。\n\n我现在认为这条比“剩5.11亿必须抓一个boss”强得多，而且已经有 488 + 469 + 720 + 858 + Tanner/Honeycutt/Elias 可以串成完整法律链。\n\n这条我现在给 ★★★★★（forfeiture appeal）。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd9a817f9d0e908d6d16a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q7d79720c1f3a8dd1668d","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":14,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:52:11.161Z","text":"继续。这一轮我觉得可以把“王14亿—郭13亿—郭8.89亿”这条线再往前推进一步，而且现在有一个二巡2025年新判例 Elias，对“personally obtained”这一块非常有杀伤力。\n\n二巡在 United States v. Elias (2025) 里明确把 Honeycutt 的逻辑扩展到 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(1)(C)：如果适用的是“proceeds”型刑事没收，法院不能仅因为共犯拿到了钱，就让另一个被告没收自己从未实际取得的那部分。二巡直接说，个人被告必须实际“acquire/obtain”相关proceeds；仅仅“本来想拿、期待拿、为拿钱采取过行动”都不够。\n\n这对郭的720非常直接，因为720原文把13亿的一部分定义成：\n\n“the proceeds … that the Defendant personally obtained”\n\n然后再加另一块：\n\nCount Three property involved in money laundering，这一块才与王joint and several。 gov.uscourts.nysd.595325.720.0.pdf\n\n所以现在真正值得问的不是“郭是boss，因此整个G Enterprise的钱都算他的”，而是：\n\n政府到底证明郭本人取得了多少proceeds？\n\n“Boss”“Principal”“控制整个网络”可以是证据，但按照Elias，organizational control不能自动替代personal acquisition这一法定要求。 如果某5.5亿美元实际流入Je控制的公司，政府还必须证明郭自己直接或间接取得/控制了这部分犯罪所得，不能只靠“Je是共谋者，因此郭也背”。\n\n这和王自己的Dkt.469正好撞上。王的律师早就指出，GXZ26展示的约13亿是整个GTV/Farm/G Club/HEX资金网络的aggregate inflows，而其中约5.5亿净流入Je控制公司、约1亿流入郭family offices/family；这本身就说明 aggregate enterprise inflow ≠ 某一个被告personally obtained的金额。\n\n现在再看858会发现一个很有意思的结构：Torres最终把郭的13亿减掉4.11亿，留下8.89亿，并公开把这8.89亿描述为郭非法项目的proceeds；DOJ现在也写郭被命令没收 $889 million in proceeds。\n\n但858/最终judgment里同时又保留了Count 3：\n\nproperty involved in money laundering。\n\n也就是说，8.89亿这个总数实际上仍可能包含两种法定性质不同的东西：\n\n* 郭本人“personally obtained”的犯罪所得；\n* money laundering“property involved”。\n\n这两个标准并不一样。\n\nElias对第一类特别严格；第二类则按§982(a)(1)分析，范围可以更宽。\n\n因此现在出现一个很好的上诉问题：\n\n法院最终给出一个统一的$889m数字，但没有公开量化其中多少属于Guo personally obtained proceeds、多少属于Count 3 laundering property。既然这两个部分适用不同的法律标准，如果其中“personally obtained”部分受到Elias/Honeycutt限制，二巡如何判断错误影响的具体金额？\n\n这已经不只是“账目不好看”。\n\n它涉及能不能进行meaningful appellate review和harmless-error review。\n\n因为政府如果说：\n\n“就算郭没personally obtain全部8.89亿，Count 3 laundering也能撑住。”\n\n二巡完全可以反问：\n\n那Count 3那一块具体是多少？District Court在哪里算过？\n\n如果没有allocation，这个答复就会变得困难。\n\n另外，Elias还有一个对substitute assets特别重要的点：二巡明确说，§853(p)不能被用来追一个被告的无辜资产，去替代“其实是另一个共犯取得”的犯罪所得；替代资产只能追最初取得那笔犯罪所得并对其消失负责的那个被告。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7d79720c1f3a8dd1668d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":15,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:52:28.228Z","text":"这对Robert一直说的“找一个boss背剩余金额”其实是反方向的。\n\n法律不是：\n\n“犯罪集团有个总数，就找谁能抓就让谁补。”\n\n而是：\n\n要先证明这个具体被告实际取得了哪部分proceeds；只有那部分后来找不到时，才谈他的substitute assets。\n\n所以Robert“不要替政府先假设对”这个态度值得保留，但Elias恰好说明‘再抓一个boss来背’并不是正确法律逻辑。\n\n真正强的攻击是：\n\n政府是否把enterprise-wide aggregate flows/GXZ26 gross inflows转化成Guo personally obtained proceeds，而没有做被告个人化的acquisition finding。\n\n这条和我们前面的ACA/Hinton问题已经彻底连上了：\n\nGXZ26：政府分类的aggregate flow\n\n→ Hinton：没有独立项目知识、没有transaction-level tracing\n\n→ ACA：存在commingled/other inflows\n\n→ Dkt.469：13亿资金实际流向多个不同实体/主体\n\n→ 720/858：却形成一个统一Money Judgment\n\n→ Elias：proceeds必须证明这个被告本人取得\n\n这一条我现在会提升为 ★★★★★ 的forfeiture appellate issue。\n\n而且这可能比王14亿本身更直接帮助郭26-1853，因为Elias是二巡自己的新判例，且正好发生在26-1853审理期间可以直接引用。\n\n我现在认为下一步最值得继续打穿的是：858究竟用哪些事实把Farm/G Club/HEX的8.89亿从“流入G Enterprise账户”进一步变成“Guo personally obtained proceeds”。 只要那一步主要靠“control / boss / enterprise”而不是具体取得、支配、受益证据，Elias的价值会进一步上升。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q11dec8c32ac78d3556d2","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":16,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T10:58:01.077Z","text":"没收废了， [删节：隐私信息]\n300骨干，从刑事案拿钱，梦想破灭，还要独自在破产案，面对luc追钱","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q11dec8c32ac78d3556d2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q8f8b482c42516bd8d559","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":17,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T11:33:28.586Z","text":"858就是用的流入即犯罪所得，由boss，不是陪审团定的boss，是王指任而已，承担全部责任。如果没有紧随858之后的补充初步没收令，然后帮政府和法院圆一下就是：王的第一部分是那几百万或者那一两百万，或者干脆就没有，第二部分与郭承担8.89亿的连带责任。既然都说是动态的，就把它动态到郭那边去。但是后面的补充没收令里，还是13亿，就说明，它们就是打算找人来背多出的4.11亿。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8f8b482c42516bd8d559","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa6389c1d1dc3032b86b8","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":18,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T11:41:56.897Z","text":"余，和300骨干，日子都不好过\n未起诉的共谋，估计会被检方拿来，背这4亿\n检方惹不起Kyle Bass，只好捡软柿子捏，拿300骨干顶雷","edited":false,"reply_to":"q8f8b482c42516bd8d559","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa6389c1d1dc3032b86b8","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8f8b482c42516bd8d559","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qe45e261b6840646ac2ba","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":19,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T11:45:10.472Z","text":"圆不回来的时候，没收就会崩","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe45e261b6840646ac2ba","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q8251705f79f7377f6b00","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":20,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T11:45:49.688Z","text":"没收崩然后呢？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8251705f79f7377f6b00","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q55cea761e84b728cc366","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":21,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T11:48:23.877Z","text":"资金流混乱，检方严重失职，发回重审","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q55cea761e84b728cc366","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qfde0e3c2eaaa6de30807","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":22,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T11:48:49.605Z","text":"二巡正好2025才有一个Elia判例","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfde0e3c2eaaa6de30807","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb116a65b4d9c3785a24a","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":23,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T11:49:27.163Z","text":"就是我上面找到的那个案列","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb116a65b4d9c3785a24a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q4ebcf189773d289de067","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":24,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T11:59:31.544Z","text":"这个很有意思，对于王案来说，第一部分proceeds可能有几百万，而对于郭案，怕是更少，可能也是几百万。\n那问题来了，第二部分joint，8.9亿刨除第一部分，怎么分？两边推？没法圆了啊\n858以后补充没收令，还是13亿，那就更离谱了🤣 🤣 🤣","edited":false,"reply_to":"qfde0e3c2eaaa6de30807","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4ebcf189773d289de067","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfde0e3c2eaaa6de30807","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qdb7588d2d8ef3ffa51f3","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":25,"speaker":"spr***","date":"2026-08-25T12:54:03.573Z","text":"郭被指认为boss关键不是王，托雷死根本没提过王，在858里说得很清楚，“在审判中，政府以优势证据证明，郭文贵是控制 G 集团所有实体及这些实体资产的“老板”。\n答复第 7 页。7 例如，多名证人的证词表明，郭文贵对 G 集团所涉资产行使控制：Karin Maistrello\n作证称，郭文贵控制 Rule of Law 组织的资金，而该组织是一项涉及 G 集团的计划（见审判记录\n第 424 页）；多名证人作证称，郭文贵控制 G Clubs（见审判记录第 1941 页〔描述郭文贵为“最\n高老板”〕，1995:3–15，1996:2–5〔旁栏澄清〕，1999:4–7，2975:8–2976:10，2980:11–22，\n2999:20–3000:6〔关于 G Clubs 的证词〕）；并且大量书面证据支持如下结论：郭文贵对其犯罪所\n涉资金行使控制（见 GXC415；答复第 7 页注 3〔引用审判证物，显示郭文贵对 G 集团所涉资金行\n使控制〕）”                                                                                你要把rico当一个单独地来打不但很难，就是打掉了也只是rico而已，其它电汇，证券欺诈还在，但如果电汇，证券欺诈不成立，那rico 干什么？rico一起游山玩水吗？电汇，证券欺诈是基础，rico和洗钱都是建立在这之上，这是最基本的，一个律师一眼就能看出来，根本都谈不上技术","edited":false,"reply_to":"qa6bc73336301ea8bc507","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdb7588d2d8ef3ffa51f3","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa6bc73336301ea8bc507","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qc9eb6c4cffd1f2fb374a","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":26,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T13:00:55.638Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息] 不要用AI瞎分析瞎BB\n没有三被告之一的王认罪，S3起诉书里的指控，没法成立","edited":true,"reply_to":"qdb7588d2d8ef3ffa51f3","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc9eb6c4cffd1f2fb374a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdb7588d2d8ef3ffa51f3","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q53c842b8c8ea61241927","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":27,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T13:02:10.588Z","text":"错，本案就是这么奇葩，你还在用正常逻辑去解读。它们程序上能做到什么，它们就会这么做。你用ai来帮你说，我直接打字跟你说，托雷斯就是引用了王的认罪和指任，你估计没有自己去看全部原文。托雷斯确实说了政府以优势证据来证明，但优势证据是哪些，托雷斯引用的那些证人证词，和一个认罪的第一副手说郭是boss，谁更有分量。王能证明的是控制了g系列是用来干坏事，托雷斯引用的其它证人证词，更多的只是证明控制，控制了也可以是干好事。","edited":false,"reply_to":"qdb7588d2d8ef3ffa51f3","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q53c842b8c8ea61241927","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdb7588d2d8ef3ffa51f3","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q555334812dcad76bfc24","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":28,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T13:04:21.424Z","text":"它们就是勉强的用程序能套上，就往上面套。它们就是先有rico,然后才有共谋，然后才有诈骗洗钱。就是小弟诈骗就是老大诈骗，然后政府只干掉老大，这是rico办案的标准操作。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q555334812dcad76bfc24","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q9957914d77d2f0b64dd4","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":29,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T13:05:31.095Z","text":"不要想着去淡化诈骗联盟和其它[屏蔽词]的坏事让郭来背这一点，这一点才是本案的核心。","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9957914d77d2f0b64dd4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q945a27fee5fc32605e35","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":30,"speaker":"spr***","date":"2026-08-25T13:35:46.959Z","text":"你以为你一句本案很奇葩二巡就给你撤销案件了？你的论点没有案卷支撑二巡会理你？这一段明明写着“At trial, the Government proved by a preponderance of the evidence that Guo was the\n“Boss” in control of all of the entities in the G Enterprise and those entities’ assets. ”  TRIAL！ 你没看见吗？你看见写的王说了。。。吗？是你自己没看过庭审纪录吧，托指的是庭审时多位检方证人说郭是boss，我跟你论证翻案的技术，这些跟联盟又怎么扯上关系了？","edited":false,"reply_to":"q53c842b8c8ea61241927","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q945a27fee5fc32605e35","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q53c842b8c8ea61241927","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2cbc7e516c86406c0503","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":31,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-25T13:53:56.188Z","text":"［用户 reb***］ 你还在用正常逻辑跟他辩论 😆","edited":true,"reply_to":"q53c842b8c8ea61241927","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2cbc7e516c86406c0503","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q53c842b8c8ea61241927","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q0802b1ce97a8240dd73b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":32,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T13:58:02.430Z","text":"你的翻案技术客观上就是有利于诈骗联盟脱离干系。我是看858得出的结论，你去扯我没有看庭审。然后还扯什么撤案，二巡。858里，托雷斯就是引用了王的认罪和指任。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q945a27fee5fc32605e35","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0802b1ce97a8240dd73b","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q945a27fee5fc32605e35","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q07b40cfd0de76c285b4b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":33,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T13:59:56.809Z","text":"对方正常讨论，就可以正常讨论。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q2cbc7e516c86406c0503","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q07b40cfd0de76c285b4b","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2cbc7e516c86406c0503","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb9053c19cb902801c3ac","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":34,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T14:00:28.081Z","text":"然后他们就觉得，你好欺负","edited":false,"reply_to":"q07b40cfd0de76c285b4b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb9053c19cb902801c3ac","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q07b40cfd0de76c285b4b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q3df2b75d972ed1de018b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":35,"speaker":"spr***","date":"2026-08-25T14:01:40.991Z","text":"858里哪一段引用了王的认罪和指任？","edited":false,"reply_to":"q0802b1ce97a8240dd73b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3df2b75d972ed1de018b","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0802b1ce97a8240dd73b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q04f4ae4268734bc9a769","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":36,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T14:06:58.697Z","text":"你自己去搜索关键字找。我有空了想起了再去搜了给你找出来。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q3df2b75d972ed1de018b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q04f4ae4268734bc9a769","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3df2b75d972ed1de018b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q7708012160ddded02faf","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":37,"speaker":"spr***","date":"2026-08-25T14:09:13.386Z","text":"你要是focus在盖尔和联盟能够把案件撤销了让我的钱回来，能够让我坐在这里啥都不用干就舒舒服服就把我的钱拿回来了，我支持你focus在盖尔和联盟，说句不好听的话，我投的钱应该比你多多了，我的钱不是大风刮来的，可惜你这条路我看不到任何相关性和任何可能撤销案子，按照你们的逻辑，我甚至可以臆想你们是故意往没有用处的地方引导，让人忽视案子的关键和key, 不过我没那么疯，你要说服我，就必须在你的总体目标和具体盖尔和联盟行为上建立法律上强壮的无可辩驳的因果链条","edited":false,"reply_to":"q0802b1ce97a8240dd73b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0802b1ce97a8240dd73b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb2186d2330e0fd9e04ab","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":38,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T14:10:46.563Z","text":"［用户 spr***］ 没人想要说服你\n就是翻案子细节，找漏洞，爱看不看\n不是你之前瞎BB，胡说我对盖尔的分析，是错的，才懒得理你这类大妈","edited":true,"reply_to":"q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb2186d2330e0fd9e04ab","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q64c6df1f72b162896056","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":39,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T14:10:55.398Z","text":"我还是强调，证明郭自己没有诈骗没有用，黑手党老大都是自己不去干杀人抢劫，然后被用rico干掉。如果你回避去理解这一点，就没什么好讨论了。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q64c6df1f72b162896056","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qd39d9a364d123c604437","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":40,"speaker":"spr***","date":"2026-08-25T14:14:30.769Z","text":"谁接谁话那重要 吗，我只是论述你走错了路，这么你就是无可辩驳我了呗","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd39d9a364d123c604437","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qee61f8e4d3013b5f31c4","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":41,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T14:15:57.516Z","text":"你接我话，我会回应你，没有想说服你。你觉得自己的方法是对的，你就坚持。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qee61f8e4d3013b5f31c4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qba70a7dbfc4cafa189c7","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":42,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2026-08-25T14:25:49.887Z","text":"你不就是用受害者身份要求没收把钱搞过来，特别是合理化债权人全部瓜分最好，然后郭就一直坐牢吗","edited":false,"reply_to":"q945a27fee5fc32605e35","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qba70a7dbfc4cafa189c7","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q945a27fee5fc32605e35","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q88907008dbe623594e3b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":43,"speaker":"spr***","date":"2026-08-25T15:08:23.224Z","text":"双方的逻辑都很感人，你认为别人是特务，别人还认为你是特务骗子呢，才投那么几个子，几个月来每天连篇累牍，引导别人大部分的精力都focus在对最终目标没什么帮助的事情上，把别人打成特务不是某个人群的专利🤣","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q88907008dbe623594e3b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qc1c75c36663e4b4bf356","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":44,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-25T15:12:35.978Z","text":"［用户 spr***］  你把图片里面这个人卖了 现在又和他们合作","edited":true,"reply_to":"q88907008dbe623594e3b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc1c75c36663e4b4bf356","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q88907008dbe623594e3b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qde3ef350666ebde22e4c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":45,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T15:21:44.535Z","text":"自诉这个行为没什么问题，但是自诉人的目的是不一样的。每个人做自己想做的就可以了，不用管别人。自诉自己代表自己。这群也是言论自由，当然有些人会胡说八道了。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q88907008dbe623594e3b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qde3ef350666ebde22e4c","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q88907008dbe623594e3b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q494bf0d23fe6a6cf2d87","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":46,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T15:37:47.955Z","text":"王是特务这件事最早是受害者陈述有人写的，王否认了。然后是猪贝贝动议里写的，王是共产党员。然后是这群里的某些人，现在说的。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q494bf0d23fe6a6cf2d87","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q4a5c2690b5c09d808acf","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":47,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-25T15:38:21.174Z","text":"［用户 joh***］ 应该是盖尔的remission","edited":true,"reply_to":"qdf400009b9c2c4900fb9","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4a5c2690b5c09d808acf","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q75f193a321a8f425f325","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":48,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T15:39:55.134Z","text":"王是不是特务，谁也没证据。但是王和郭是现在唯一被抓被判的两个人。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q75f193a321a8f425f325","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qfe2ba2b8d74625db3740","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":49,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-25T15:40:19.564Z","text":"［用户 joh***］ 开始洗王 保没收","edited":true,"reply_to":"q75f193a321a8f425f325","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfe2ba2b8d74625db3740","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q75f193a321a8f425f325","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q16c20894394274834f58","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":50,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T15:40:53.168Z","text":"每个人都有脑子，你们自己判断吧","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q16c20894394274834f58","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa761491cd213fe578989","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":51,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2026-08-25T15:47:02.849Z","text":"她们的底色就是搞钱，阻挡郭翻案，让郭牢底做穿","edited":false,"reply_to":"qd807837e281c0303240b","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa761491cd213fe578989","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qd574734e6e18c75bf3e4","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":52,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T15:51:43.180Z","text":"［用户 spr***］ 一个护盖尔， ［用户 him***］ 一个护王\n不就是怕 forfeiture-remission，这条线黄了嘛\n没了没收，破产案债权人，拿不到G系列","edited":true,"reply_to":"qa761491cd213fe578989","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd574734e6e18c75bf3e4","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa761491cd213fe578989","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q79969b2f4060e414630f","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":53,"speaker":"nin***","date":"2026-08-25T16:01:31.388Z","text":"因果聯繫就是這幫前後聯盟，農場骨幹投資造假，利用原投資資金，喜幣錯配，各農場詐騙蛆用錯配的喜幣騙錢，洗錢，詐騙。喜交所平台的錢怎麽進出的，全TMD用他們錯配的喜幣詐騙。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q79969b2f4060e414630f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q4833ed6709273707fb7f","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":54,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T16:03:28.665Z","text":"郭是被Rico的，法官认为他是boss","edited":false,"reply_to":"q79969b2f4060e414630f","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4833ed6709273707fb7f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q79969b2f4060e414630f","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qe23bc81a9b58975699e2","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":55,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T16:03:48.585Z","text":"联盟农场和洗脚所的罪行，都是他负责","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe23bc81a9b58975699e2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q0f6e98efadcf5680bb7b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":56,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:04:31.400Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 王认罪，又被你吃了？","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f6e98efadcf5680bb7b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa9f7502f693ef14f6e37","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":57,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T16:04:54.348Z","text":"盖尔主要和退款程序相关，和案子的关系就是检方布雷迪违规","edited":false,"reply_to":"q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa9f7502f693ef14f6e37","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7708012160ddded02faf","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q1091d22dbf6c76f933db","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":58,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:05:35.451Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 退你麻痹\n［用户 him***］ 盖尔凭什么去刑事案？","edited":true,"reply_to":"qa9f7502f693ef14f6e37","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1091d22dbf6c76f933db","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa9f7502f693ef14f6e37","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q46ed9600241309213353","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":59,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T16:05:50.564Z","text":"检方明知道盖尔的6000人登记是联盟农场和洗脚所操控的，但是还让他们当潜在受害者要钱，这可能是布雷迪违规","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q46ed9600241309213353","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q693f1a68e23f59ffdfa7","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":60,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T16:06:31.557Z","text":"但是法官现在似乎已经不认为盖尔6000人是受害者了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q693f1a68e23f59ffdfa7","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q1357fdd8ab549e43a777","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":61,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:07:11.434Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 又扯检方了\n［用户 him***］ 什么潜在受害者，不是盖尔自己用的CVRA吗","edited":true,"reply_to":"q693f1a68e23f59ffdfa7","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1357fdd8ab549e43a777","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q693f1a68e23f59ffdfa7","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q416f6d36d8a5fcdd12ab","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":62,"speaker":"nin***","date":"2026-08-25T16:09:39.816Z","text":"法庭會給你們，別着急。證據都在如水的帳本里。這個壞女人跑不了的。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q69ed6c083cc0570741f6","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q416f6d36d8a5fcdd12ab","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qe1cba08fdfff7461c099","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":63,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:15:42.192Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 她的话，反过来听，就对了","edited":true,"reply_to":"q8a87e76d44bcd4711cb3","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe1cba08fdfff7461c099","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qc6e4f95e57ad46184e46","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":64,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:16:03.380Z","text":"说明安小东，很忌讳如水","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc6e4f95e57ad46184e46","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q4d50308085ee9260f05b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":65,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T16:16:20.935Z","text":"说的好像如水和你有关系一样","edited":false,"reply_to":"q8a87e76d44bcd4711cb3","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4d50308085ee9260f05b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q076b64b5cefa2574b45c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":66,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:16:28.576Z","text":"毕竟 ［用户 him***］ 安小东，是西班牙农场的骨干","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q076b64b5cefa2574b45c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q46473e36cb37e05a6861","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":67,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:17:05.176Z","text":"估计如水的小本本，有她的帐","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q46473e36cb37e05a6861","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q39cd7cff1c7acdd22439","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":68,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:19:11.073Z","text":"越说不怕，越想撇清关系，说明心里越慌","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q39cd7cff1c7acdd22439","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2ded278165f14fe26a34","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":69,"speaker":"nin***","date":"2026-08-25T16:21:55.426Z","text":"在郭案未起訴的被告人，公司里面帳戶和如水有沒有関係啊，不是直接關係他們怎麼都在被告人里面。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q4d50308085ee9260f05b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2ded278165f14fe26a34","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4d50308085ee9260f05b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb56f83e32a3468798318","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":70,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:27:54.190Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 安小东，未起诉的几个被告，和300骨干，是检方要拿来做实rico，和平帐money judgement的","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb56f83e32a3468798318","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa5cf78bd15ecffbf5988","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":71,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:29:18.968Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 想在这带风向，无非是要维稳300骨干，防着他们内部反水","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa5cf78bd15ecffbf5988","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q62ce34756e953126ee95","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":72,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-25T16:30:21.991Z","text":"郭案的被告人是郭王余","edited":false,"reply_to":"q2ded278165f14fe26a34","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q62ce34756e953126ee95","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2ded278165f14fe26a34","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q5a35868f5d69c4f50ae2","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":73,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T16:32:31.497Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 未起诉被告，张永兵，长岛，如水，木兰，王雪冰，被你吃了？\n这些人很可能，被检方卖，为了平那部分金钱判决的帐\n［用户 reb***］","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5a35868f5d69c4f50ae2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q0a7d01b5d3ce629b7570","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":74,"speaker":"nin***","date":"2026-08-25T16:50:32.156Z","text":"你真病的神智不清了，美國法庭最後是一定要給答案的。如水手上的帳本就是照妖鏡。請她最好別亂動。不然吃不了 兜著走。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0a7d01b5d3ce629b7570","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb868bb66b0bc17c2340c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":75,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-25T17:08:45.329Z","text":"正义小Sarah 的真名是什么？\n她妈芝麻开门叫[删节：隐私信息]吧？\n[删节：成员身份]","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb868bb66b0bc17c2340c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qe00c840be5419668fcf4","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":76,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-25T17:17:40.433Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息]？她姓张","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe00c840be5419668fcf4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q59bd30125f71c6602719","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":77,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T17:33:19.754Z","text":"别的不知道， ［用户 him***］ [删节：隐私信息]","edited":true,"reply_to":"q1336d0f913af600357b3","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q59bd30125f71c6602719","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qfeaedf1099e9b1161ef3","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":78,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-25T18:50:16.225Z","text":"AI 帮我小结了一下关于盖尔的事情：\n\n为了让读者一目了然地看到 Bradford L. Geyer 的代理身份与诉讼立场是如何在两年内被逐步“偷梁换柱”并最终接入政府 Remission / Victim 体系的，我为您将 ECF 核心卷宗节点压缩整理为以下这段严谨、客观且具备强说服力的文字：\nGeyer 代理身份与诉讼立场的演变脉络：\n在 2023 年 9 月至 12 月的初始阶段，喜马拉雅交易所（HEX）向广大客户群发邮件（Exhibit 28, ECF 740），将 Bradford L. Geyer 包装为“完全独立”的第三方律师（ECF 526-1），引导数千名不熟悉英文及美国法律的投资人通过 himalayarestoration.com 进行 HID 登记并授权；Geyer 随后代表 3,345 名 HEX 客户向法院提交 Rule 41(g) 动议（ECF 184, 186），明确主张客户对被扣资产拥有独立的第三方财产权（third-party interest），其核心法律逻辑是**“对抗美国政府的错误扣押以追回个人资产”**，并公开反驳“客户是郭文贵诈骗受害者”的论调。\n然而，这一代理定位在随后的诉讼程序中发生了实质性的“双轨叠加”与框架转向：\n政府质疑与身份隐患（2024年1月）： 检方在 ECF 223 中公开向法院质疑 Geyer 的独立性与真实授权关系，直指“不清楚到底是谁在指挥 Geyer”（It is not clear who is directing Mr. Geyer），并指出其身份验证高度依赖 HEX 数据库。\n诉讼语言的隐蔽拓展（2024年11月）： 在 ECF 478 中，Geyer 的文件开始引入“victims/investors”、CVRA 及 §853(n) 等受害者法律框架，将原先纯粹的第三方产权诉求与受害者赔偿语言混合。\n接入政府 Remission 体系（2025年2月–3月）： 随着检方提交 ECF 493 推动 Remission 机制，Geyer 在私下沟通中向检方表示愿意修改文件以避免政府反对（“Let me know what I need to cut or alter...”, ECF 506）；检方则于 3 月 9 日明确表示希望在 Remission 流程中与其“协作”以提高效率（ECF 506）。\n多轨诉求的正式确认与授权争议爆发（2025年4月–8月）： 在 ECF 676 中，Geyer 代表的约 6,575 名客户诉求被同时写入 Restitution、Ancillary Forfeiture 与 Remission 路径。这一身份重叠直接引发了客户内部的授权争议——大量客户在意识到自己被纳入“郭案受害者”框架后发出撤销授权邮件（ECF 506, 612），甚至向法院提起独立诉讼要求宣告原始代理协议无效（ECF 508, 709, 734, 740），直指 2023 年以“追回被冻结资产”为由收集的原始授权，在未经知情同意的情况下被扩大应用于政府的 Victim / Remission 程序。\n这一段文字直接以法院原始卷宗（ECF 编号）为锚点，将“独立第三方产权追讨”到“接入检方 Victim/Remission 体系”的演变过程完全呈现出来，让法律事实本身替文章发声。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfeaedf1099e9b1161ef3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qeef2946123bc90596997","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":79,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-25T18:54:10.054Z","text":"我刚写完盖尔的东西。\n写着写着，突然领悟到了螺丝哥真是一道闪电，他打破了联盟连哄带骗、控制的6000多受害者的叙事。他当了一个不一样的受害者。他真是破局高手、搅局的搅屎棍！","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qeef2946123bc90596997","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q580d932d1f5e78d72b4c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":80,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-25T19:00:22.173Z","text":"整理出来了一页纸的简易版，关于盖尔如何偷梁换柱的：\n\nAI 帮我小结了一下关于盖尔的事情：\n\n为了让读者一目了然地看到 Bradford L. Geyer 的代理身份与诉讼立场是如何在两年内被逐步“偷梁换柱”并最终接入政府 Remission / Victim 体系的，我为您将 ECF 核心卷宗节点压缩整理为以下这段严谨、客观且具备强说服力的文字：\nGeyer 代理身份与诉讼立场的演变脉络：\n在 2023 年 9 月至 12 月的初始阶段，喜马拉雅交易所（HEX）向广大客户群发邮件（Exhibit 28, ECF 740），将 Bradford L. Geyer 包装为“完全独立”的第三方律师（ECF 526-1），引导数千名不熟悉英文及美国法律的投资人通过 himalayarestoration.com 进行 HID 登记并授权；Geyer 随后代表 3,345 名 HEX 客户向法院提交 Rule 41(g) 动议（ECF 184, 186），明确主张客户对被扣资产拥有独立的第三方财产权（third-party interest），其核心法律逻辑是**“对抗美国政府的错误扣押以追回个人资产”**，并公开反驳“客户是郭文贵诈骗受害者”的论调。\n然而，这一代理定位在随后的诉讼程序中发生了实质性的“双轨叠加”与框架转向：\n政府质疑与身份隐患（2024年1月）： 检方在 ECF 223 中公开向法院质疑 Geyer 的独立性与真实授权关系，直指“不清楚到底是谁在指挥 Geyer”（It is not clear who is directing Mr. Geyer），并指出其身份验证高度依赖 HEX 数据库。\n诉讼语言的隐蔽拓展（2024年11月）： 在 ECF 478 中，Geyer 的文件开始引入“victims/investors”、CVRA 及 §853(n) 等受害者法律框架，将原先纯粹的第三方产权诉求与受害者赔偿语言混合。\n接入政府 Remission 体系（2025年2月–3月）： 随着检方提交 ECF 493 推动 Remission 机制，Geyer 在私下沟通中向检方表示愿意修改文件以避免政府反对（“Let me know what I need to cut or alter...”, ECF 506）；检方则于 3 月 9 日明确表示希望在 Remission 流程中与其“协作”以提高效率（ECF 506）。\n多轨诉求的正式确认与授权争议爆发（2025年4月–8月）： 在 ECF 676 中，Geyer 代表的约 6,575 名客户诉求被同时写入 Restitution、Ancillary Forfeiture 与 Remission 路径。这一身份重叠直接引发了客户内部的授权争议——大量客户在意识到自己被纳入“郭案受害者”框架后发出撤销授权邮件（ECF 506, 612），甚至向法院提起独立诉讼要求宣告原始代理协议无效（ECF 508, 709, 734, 740），直指 2023 年以“追回被冻结资产”为由收集的原始授权，在未经知情同意的情况下被扩大应用于政府的 Victim / Remission 程序。\n这一段文字直接以法院原始卷宗（ECF 编号）为锚点，将“独立第三方产权追讨”到“接入检方 Victim/Remission 体系”的演变过程完全呈现出来，让法律事实本身替文章发声。","edited":false,"reply_to":"qfeaedf1099e9b1161ef3","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q580d932d1f5e78d72b4c","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfeaedf1099e9b1161ef3","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q561c91f2f340ae51650d","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":81,"speaker":"lon***","date":"2026-08-25T19:19:58.006Z","text":"联盟为什么还敢造假电话📞","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q561c91f2f340ae51650d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q6c9c860943336e5e9384","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":82,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T19:36:19.243Z","text":"不造假，联盟就没了，郭爆料病毒疫苗的功劳，就抢不到了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6c9c860943336e5e9384","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q0449c58fd44109863369","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":83,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T19:40:35.641Z","text":"联盟背后的主子，还想利用NFSC这个壳","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0449c58fd44109863369","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q9206cc4206963cb0bd98","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":84,"speaker":"yun***","date":"2026-08-25T19:59:26.356Z","text":"联盟还以从喜交所提币，向个人Hpay转HDO为借口让大家提交HID，最后是不是也被非法利用了？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9206cc4206963cb0bd98","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q1b63b346a440cf89a871","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":85,"speaker":"lon***","date":"2026-08-25T20:50:13.320Z","text":"这个有人说是[删节：成员身份]的","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1b63b346a440cf89a871","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qd4a1313e6f889ea06262","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":86,"speaker":"nin***","date":"2026-08-25T21:21:17.534Z","text":"来来看看诈骗联盟和他们洋爹律师的共谋犯罪宣传页。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q580d932d1f5e78d72b4c","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd4a1313e6f889ea06262","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q580d932d1f5e78d72b4c","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q48fe4902e0207eae9d18","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":87,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-25T22:51:34.349Z","text":"好像有 26-2382  的文件岀来了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q48fe4902e0207eae9d18","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q8d12b7281b4c008e828c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":88,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T22:52:16.431Z","text":"不是那个天天跪拜的[删节：成员身份]，是另一个人","edited":true,"reply_to":"q1b63b346a440cf89a871","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8d12b7281b4c008e828c","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1b63b346a440cf89a871","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q82b4a4b41f1635e3d0fd","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":89,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T22:52:51.472Z","text":"有一个新的实质性进展：8月25日的5739听证已经实际举行，而且听证结束后马上出现了新的 Dkt. 5778。\n\nBankruptcy Case 22-50073，Dkt. 5778，2026年8月25日： Trustee一方提交了 “Request for Transcript — Hearing held on August 25, 2026”，申请制作当天听证的正式庭审记录。最新公开破产案镜像已经把5778列在最前面；它同时确认 Dkt.5777 才是 “Notice of Filing Third Revised Proposed Order”，Dkt.5776是“Further Revised Proposed Order”。\n\n这一步比单纯“今天安排了听证”更重要，因为现在已经可以确认：5739确实开过庭，而且Trustee认为庭上发生的内容重要到需要立即订正式transcript。 但目前最新公开docket里还没有出现签署后的最终批准令，也没有可以可靠核实的minute ruling说明Manning到底批准、否决、继续审理还是要求进一步修改。因此现在不能说“5739已经批准”。官方/公开docket此前确认5739就是8月25日下午2点的政府—Trustee和解听证事项。\n\n对你们现在追的 26-1853 / Rule 32.2 / §853(n) / 第三方产权，5778真正的价值是：下一份最关键材料已经从5777转成8月25日庭审transcript。 如果庭上Manning、Government、Luc或者异议方说过以下任何一种话——第三方产权必须另行裁判、5739不决定non-party ownership、刑事forfeiture权利必须留给SDNY、某项资产分类仍有争议、或者法院要求修改order保护第三方——那会比我们从5777文字里推断更有力量，因为这是正式庭审record。\n\n目前 Second Circuit 26-1853主案本身仍没有查到比Dkt.16更新的可靠公开filing。最新公开镜像仍停在 Dkt.16（8月5日Dratel申请退出、请求Federal Defenders接手）；没有查到Dkt.17、批准换律师的order、Federal Defenders的新appearance、joint appendix、新briefing schedule，或新的Rule 32/32.2文件。\n\n所以现在最值得盯的顺序已经很清楚：\n\n1. Dkt.5778申请产生的8月25日正式transcript；\n2. 5739最终signed order / minute entry；\n3. 最终order与Dkt.5777 Third Revised Proposed Order到底有没有变化；\n4. 然后再把庭审中涉及ownership、forfeiture、third-party rights的原话，与 23-cr-118的Rule 32.2 / §853(n) record逐项对照。\n\n现阶段最重要的新事实就是：5739已经真正开庭，正式庭审记录正在被申请制作；但我目前还不能确认法院已经批准和解。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q82b4a4b41f1635e3d0fd","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q32288ee2010f19ffe964","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":90,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T23:04:06.784Z","text":"871是谁的强制令吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q32288ee2010f19ffe964","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q42fca4ce227e3022d8f7","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":91,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T23:38:41.640Z","text":"托雷斯是在量刑听政里多次引用了对王的量刑，我把它记串了，记成了在858里。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q42fca4ce227e3022d8f7","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q72dab07fdce7903570f4","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":92,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T23:40:40.526Z","text":"就算仅仅看858，托雷斯的逻辑依然是，郭被定罪敲诈勒索共谋，郭是boss，只要流入就是犯罪集团的犯罪所得，就是boss郭的犯罪所得。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q72dab07fdce7903570f4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q39c43a30856d1d92ae0f","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":93,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-26T00:39:47.873Z","text":"现在多少个强制令了？ 18 还是19？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q39c43a30856d1d92ae0f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q78a983e68d7367ef44e9","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":94,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T00:40:05.100Z","text":"18或19把 记不清了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q78a983e68d7367ef44e9","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb6d2b5464e21e230677e","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":95,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-26T00:40:20.755Z","text":"https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67012324/united-states-v-guo/","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb6d2b5464e21e230677e","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa9687496fb7abaff8784","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":96,"speaker":"xia***","date":"2026-08-26T00:47:58.293Z","text":"[删节：成员身份]聊螺丝哥","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa9687496fb7abaff8784","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q71893df19c1cddbeec6d","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":97,"speaker":"xia***","date":"2026-08-26T00:48:00.419Z","text":"螺丝哥哪去了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q71893df19c1cddbeec6d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa43c0090ed325ca91841","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":98,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T00:48:29.861Z","text":"https://www.youtube.com/live/1MXz5fl2npU?is=ADq_iMyyz3bqLzYJ","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa43c0090ed325ca91841","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q7fe30ac0ae2bc1f7b77d","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":99,"speaker":"xia***","date":"2026-08-26T00:49:23.297Z","text":"真被抓了吗","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7fe30ac0ae2bc1f7b77d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qba82855b5de87cf1b60f","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":100,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-26T00:49:38.827Z","text":"拘留十天","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qba82855b5de87cf1b60f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q3a2ea2c7c53c7cf2df42","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":101,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-26T00:51:31.675Z","text":"如果[删节：成员身份],  文悦，[删节：成员身份] 如果消失了，没人会冒泡出来过问吧？","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3a2ea2c7c53c7cf2df42","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q80d39839db153b1ec56e","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":102,"speaker":"mia***","date":"2026-08-26T01:03:52.194Z","text":"瑞恩观察者打电话给螺丝哥父亲确认的","edited":false,"reply_to":"q7fe30ac0ae2bc1f7b77d","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q80d39839db153b1ec56e","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7fe30ac0ae2bc1f7b77d","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q98d7b291b2fe5c18583b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":103,"speaker":"xia***","date":"2026-08-26T01:26:17.368Z","text":"真拘留了？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q98d7b291b2fe5c18583b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q5180554e97ec889be682","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":104,"speaker":"xia***","date":"2026-08-26T01:26:20.698Z","text":"寻衅滋事？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5180554e97ec889be682","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q9292b7dde8065ae36028","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":105,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T01:36:49.905Z","text":"[删节：成员身份]讲完螺丝哥开始骂魔女","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9292b7dde8065ae36028","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q052a1d2a3e13511b135e","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":106,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T01:36:53.876Z","text":"应该是魔女要被放弃了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q052a1d2a3e13511b135e","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q3ae5fdf1085f9c9cdd56","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":107,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T01:43:31.826Z","text":"[删节：成员身份]去看郭文贵youtube节目被[删节：成员身份]删了","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3ae5fdf1085f9c9cdd56","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa2d4484de9a3da689c41","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":108,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T01:47:18.269Z","text":"[删节：隐私信息]","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa2d4484de9a3da689c41","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2d73191a72a712406d3c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":109,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T01:50:48.291Z","text":"[删节：成员身份]在劝退魔女","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2d73191a72a712406d3c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q4a9d18d0958e171cf3b3","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":110,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T01:52:00.263Z","text":"黄河边有魔女骗钱的把柄","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4a9d18d0958e171cf3b3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q3c263f60fd9f2c67597c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":111,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T03:54:13.675Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 安小东，这几个刑事案未起诉共谋，同检方签的协议，和李娅类似，主要是协助G系列洗钱\n但类似私吞投资款，可并不在协议内\n不然，姜虾头也不至于跑路地中海\n难怪你 ［用户 him***］ 怕如水被抓，原来是怕核帐啊\nhttps://x.com/bbwwblackkrose/status/2092350359595561459?s=46","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3c263f60fd9f2c67597c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q3973c097b7ad14f491be","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":112,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-26T04:58:53.138Z","text":"突然發現，之前那幾個非常活躍的如星辰等，天天在群里呆著。這幾天都去了哪兒了？🤭\n發生什麼事啦？","edited":false,"reply_to":"q39588b69eb8a830cb464","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3973c097b7ad14f491be","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q37d0f81282bef8b0bcb0","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":113,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-26T04:59:46.351Z","text":"黄河边今天节目说了一句：举报，就是哪个[屏蔽词]不停举报的结果吧","edited":true,"reply_to":"q3973c097b7ad14f491be","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q37d0f81282bef8b0bcb0","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3973c097b7ad14f491be","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q9e6ba853559c672cf109","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":114,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-26T05:03:39.752Z","text":"螺絲哥也太高調去碰瓷了，如今如他所願。估計也不會太為難他，螺絲哥又沒錢被他們敲詐，思想教育教育。🤭","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9e6ba853559c672cf109","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q5ea3f12c18e4681fd000","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":115,"speaker":"cin***","date":"2026-08-26T05:18:39.290Z","text":"我严重怀疑 是不是他和星辰微信大聊灭共 民运什么的话题 积累敏感词足了 给双双拘留了 回头问问老齐 我猜这种可能性有的","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5ea3f12c18e4681fd000","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q04da3e436d443b688130","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":116,"speaker":"cin***","date":"2026-08-26T05:19:07.739Z","text":"他俩差不多同一个周末时间段 前后脚  失联的 俩又都有前科","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q04da3e436d443b688130","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qf842531ae805f2ce0102","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":117,"speaker":"cin***","date":"2026-08-26T05:19:43.784Z","text":"星辰发达城市 又是小资 思想管控优先级高 出警快可能 老齐穷乡僻壤光棍 警方不是那么上心","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf842531ae805f2ce0102","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb486ac20b8962bdb8813","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":118,"speaker":"cin***","date":"2026-08-26T05:19:52.035Z","text":"他俩都是口无遮拦 专愿意聊这些话题的主 海外没人会管 微信可不一样 他俩关系挺近 都视频连线 这都是他俩说过的","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb486ac20b8962bdb8813","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q0f3a9854789e60bd1967","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":119,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T05:31:05.744Z","text":"［用户 cin***］  靠 你倒是提醒了 有可能星辰也进去了","edited":true,"reply_to":"q5ea3f12c18e4681fd000","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f3a9854789e60bd1967","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5ea3f12c18e4681fd000","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qce6159fcd03d571e0050","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":120,"speaker":"lon***","date":"2026-08-26T05:38:33.058Z","text":"有没有可能星辰抓了螺丝哥，因为他天天骂星辰让抓他","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qce6159fcd03d571e0050","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q6095775160fe4aee0b5a","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":121,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T05:45:14.908Z","text":"更可能是星辰举报螺丝，公安一查，这俩都不是省油灯，全逮了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6095775160fe4aee0b5a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qf08c41602fc3748500da","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":122,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T05:56:19.009Z","text":"星辰说自己当年也是猛士","edited":false,"reply_to":"q0f06d36bd5ab10fe42bb","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf08c41602fc3748500da","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q8b5248f9554f709877ff","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":123,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T06:09:13.717Z","text":"这哥俩儿，不会被关在同一个号子吧🤣","edited":false,"reply_to":"qf08c41602fc3748500da","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8b5248f9554f709877ff","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf08c41602fc3748500da","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q6c117f9988bb1aea2369","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":124,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T07:19:25.280Z","text":"虾头老棒子，对青联盟，确实恨之入骨，毕竟第三梯队等着上位\nGTV公平基金，委托张永兵的，怕是被吞了\n法统不就是张永兵，青不敢直接提名字\nhttps://x.com/xiatouj20547/status/2092216978853269831?s=46","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6c117f9988bb1aea2369","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q9b5c1c1c1d1550a441a3","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":125,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T07:38:58.933Z","text":"挖挖gtv退款的历史，公平基金是哪来的？","edited":false,"reply_to":"q82b4a4b41f1635e3d0fd","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9b5c1c1c1d1550a441a3","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q82b4a4b41f1635e3d0fd","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q6029ec730c2f947d6884","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":126,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-26T07:52:57.918Z","text":"他们意思是马上要退钱了？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6029ec730c2f947d6884","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q94aeae2977e8a11a96b0","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":127,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-26T07:57:16.016Z","text":"可以打电话问联盟这么说，是真的吗","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q94aeae2977e8a11a96b0","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qd024c5af22dff78a6d21","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":128,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-26T07:57:24.176Z","text":"打给SEC问","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd024c5af22dff78a6d21","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q3c02267bfb52c5555d4a","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":129,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T07:57:29.339Z","text":"是的","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3c02267bfb52c5555d4a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q5e09e4c8704aa534af46","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":130,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T07:59:21.050Z","text":"应该是有人问联盟，既然GTV不在郭案没收范围，庭审记录显示公平基金已经退款，为什么委托给张的，还没收到退款","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5e09e4c8704aa534af46","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qd725ac140b6e81af4715","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":131,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T07:59:35.827Z","text":"我前两天刚邮件问了，还是那一套，没动静，如果有变化会第一时间通知我","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd725ac140b6e81af4715","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q49621049e96cda4349be","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":132,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T08:00:07.900Z","text":"这是盼着检方赶紧没收呢","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q49621049e96cda4349be","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q76465a44df3d80116d2f","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":133,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T08:00:22.375Z","text":"张那里已经收到多少钱，只有他知道","edited":false,"reply_to":"q6029ec730c2f947d6884","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q76465a44df3d80116d2f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6029ec730c2f947d6884","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2e008be4d04745af330a","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":134,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T08:00:40.081Z","text":"他们的网织的很大，环环相扣","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2e008be4d04745af330a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q8f9f134fe7a40927beb6","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":135,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T08:01:00.458Z","text":"他可以用账户冻结的名义，不给委托人钱","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8f9f134fe7a40927beb6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q33fbc3624bb8746f253c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":136,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T08:01:32.972Z","text":"这和长岛不退凤凰农场委托人的钱，一个套路","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q33fbc3624bb8746f253c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q60a83c8faf683378c719","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":137,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-26T08:33:53.881Z","text":"有一个值得通知你的实质性新信息。这次不是又冒出一个新的 docket number，而是我们上次一直缺的 Bankruptcy Dkt. 5777 全文现在已经能够完整核验，而且里面的修改比我之前只能根据标题判断的要重要得多。\n\n22-50073，Dkt. 5777，2026年8月25日 12:54 PM ET，Third Revised Proposed Order。 Trustee 在文件第一页直接说明：这个第三次修订版本是根据“certain parties that objected”提出的进一步意见修改的；并且明确告诉法院，这一版相对于此前版本新增了第7、8段，并修改了第4段。\n\n这三处现在已经可以逐字确认。\n\n第4段明确规定，除 Trustee 和 United States 彼此之间外，这个和解令和 Settlement Agreement 不得损害任何人在本破产案衍生 adversary proceeding 中的权利和抗辩；也不得拿这个和解令去证明任何claim或defense的构成要件。 \n\n新增的第7段更宽。它规定，批准5739以及Settlement Agreement，包括特别提到的 Section S，均不得构成任何非 Trustee / United States 实体对 Trustee 或 bankruptcy estate 所拥有的 rights、interests、claims、causes of action、defenses 的放弃、消灭或者损害。\n\n而新增第8段是目前最值得26-1853注意的地方。它不是泛泛写“保留郭的权利”，而是直接点名 SDNY 23-cr-118：\n\n批准5739不得损害 Ho Wan Kwok 在该刑事案件中任何相关权利和利益，包括但不限于他“如果存在的话”，对于因本Settlement而仍留在bankruptcy estate中的 forfeitable asset价值，要求抵减 forfeiture judgment 的权利。\n\n这句话的法律意义要说得很准确。\n\n它不是 Trustee 承认原来的 $889 million forfeiture judgment 有错，也不是承认郭一定能够获得credit；文件特意用了 “right, if any”。但它第一次把5739和 23-cr-118中的forfeiture judgment credit问题直接写进拟议批准令。而且Trustee自己告诉法院，第4、7、8段都是相对于原始proposed order后来加进去的，其中5777又是在异议方继续提出comments以后形成的。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q60a83c8faf683378c719","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa128403d2feffda32534","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":138,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-26T08:34:28.080Z","text":"这对 26-1853 很有价值，因为以后如果上诉律师研究 Rule 32.2 / forfeiture amount / satisfaction of the money judgment / bankruptcy asset allocation，不能再把5739仅仅看成“破产Trustee和政府之间互不争资产”的外围事件。5777自己承认：和解可能导致本来属于“forfeitable asset”的价值继续留在bankruptcy estate，因此必须特别保留郭以后主张forfeiture judgment credit的可能性。\n\n对第三方产权线，5777也比我们之前预想的更有利，但不要扩大解释。第7段确实非常宽地保留了其他实体对Trustee和estate的rights/interests/claims；第4段又禁止把5739当作adversary proceeding中的产权证明。这很接近“批准和解≠裁决第三方产权”。 但它并没有直接写成“所有§853(n)/§1963(l) petition automatically preserved and successful”，刑事附属没收程序里的具体产权仍然要按相应程序证明。\n\n还有一个非常值得注意的细节：5777拟议令第1段仍然写着，未撤回、未和解的 objections 和 reservations of rights 都被 overruled；但紧接着第4、7、8段又专门把重要权利 carve out。 所以如果法院最后签的就是这一版，实际结果更像：\n\n“你们没有成功阻止5739整体批准，但批准5739不能被用来消灭你们另行存在的产权/诉权，也不能封死郭在刑案中关于forfeiture credit的争议。”\n\n这一点以后读最终order时必须牢牢记住。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa128403d2feffda32534","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q4fdaf0c74b0d1d39fdc0","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":139,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-26T08:37:05.565Z","text":"5769和5776","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4fdaf0c74b0d1d39fdc0","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q1b5797a439ef2d5f0e40","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":140,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T09:07:57.900Z","text":"十天吗？那就是这周五","edited":false,"reply_to":"qba82855b5de87cf1b60f","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1b5797a439ef2d5f0e40","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qba82855b5de87cf1b60f","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q98e44c00f64e360fefea","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":141,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-26T09:24:55.374Z","text":"破产案那边就是一坨屎，只要曼宁不被坑，luc弄个啥都批准。既然知道和解协议本质上会将其它方的所有权等相关权利被处置，然后也知道自己无权处置，然后还是要弄个和解协议，然后曼宁还是要批准。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q98e44c00f64e360fefea","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q3de8f9245a051f26dc69","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":142,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-26T09:27:44.700Z","text":"南区都已经判了流入即犯罪所得，你luc要到民事附属程序来主张对政府的优先权自己来，政府就应该一纸命令通知相关金融机构即可，当luc无法过来南区这边时，政府它马勒戈壁还要主动给luc一块。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3de8f9245a051f26dc69","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qdca7c4b96492f05ba5d5","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":143,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T09:28:39.367Z","text":"就是要让luc进到刑事案","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdca7c4b96492f05ba5d5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q12c610545b7d4a71cf70","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":144,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T09:28:52.557Z","text":"不然逮捕令就不成立了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q12c610545b7d4a71cf70","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2b5104125b8035ed61de","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":145,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T09:29:09.797Z","text":"从根上就垮了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2b5104125b8035ed61de","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qaefd32b31aef401fd5e4","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":146,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T10:24:46.102Z","text":"这两个难兄难弟，怕是互相伤害，先进去的，举报另一个","edited":false,"reply_to":"q126d251364276ffed70f","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qaefd32b31aef401fd5e4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q44c65661ef315a7122ac","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":147,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T10:27:33.544Z","text":"两地国宝沟通后一看，买一赠一的买卖，不要白不要","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q44c65661ef315a7122ac","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q959475842409291b9ee3","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":148,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T10:51:32.078Z","text":"政府和luc这样玩儿，估计会合伙，找其他人接锅，给没收平帐","edited":false,"reply_to":"q3de8f9245a051f26dc69","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q959475842409291b9ee3","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3de8f9245a051f26dc69","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qce901e5a516400279dc4","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":149,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T10:52:44.810Z","text":"候选范围，也只能限于余建民，长岛，和青联盟300骨干了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qce901e5a516400279dc4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q58e52d5723da140ace50","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":150,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T12:35:57.680Z","text":"她可是公开露脸上过直播的，小红书不禁她，这不是很明显了嘛🤣","edited":false,"reply_to":"q813c14f269c3031c2e93","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q58e52d5723da140ace50","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q0cb61a25c86885305ca0","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":151,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T12:37:11.823Z","text":"她现在，是不是还在青联盟的，某个统里有职位？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0cb61a25c86885305ca0","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q163f5832425b0e9d1612","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":152,"speaker":"_ki***","date":"2026-08-26T12:45:07.893Z","text":"群主都进去了 你们还在搞什么飞机","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q163f5832425b0e9d1612","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q566dde160ffeaf928b57","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":153,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-26T12:46:42.398Z","text":"确实是这样，公平基金找张永兵代理退款的，大多数是墙内投资，没有美元账户\n这部分钱退给了张，他也没办法退给墙内投资者。这些钱，要么张自己闷，要么就是扯理由，重新投进青联盟的新项目，然后这些人，又一次被骗。\n至于张，愿不愿意把钱回投给青联盟，估计又是凤凰农场的魏-长岛模式，合伙分钱55开\nhttps://x.com/ddivul8m3g82864/status/2091441553034375630?s=46","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q566dde160ffeaf928b57","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qdf94cb17ea160498684d","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":154,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:32:28.245Z","text":"[删节：成员身份] 和[删节：成员身份] 在NY弄了一个录音棚 接各种商演活动","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdf94cb17ea160498684d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qc272ff9bc21933bcce09","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":155,"speaker":"aiz***","date":"2026-08-26T13:34:04.674Z","text":"一个战友信魔女[屏蔽词]灭共卡，赔了60万美金。","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc272ff9bc21933bcce09","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q9de74cd10598a1c04d5e","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":156,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:34:50.198Z","text":"被封了好多次账号 现在找不到了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9de74cd10598a1c04d5e","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q58d1c3750760621d94cd","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":157,"speaker":"aiz***","date":"2026-08-26T13:36:15.852Z","text":"魔女人渣给日本侵华洗地，转发南京大屠杀是假的。\n天天穿着日本和服，骂同胞。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q58d1c3750760621d94cd","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2be6894aab77bd78d96f","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":158,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:37:22.477Z","text":"但是她就是不要脸 要流量","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2be6894aab77bd78d96f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q40117a59c044a9c1fcb2","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":159,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:37:36.124Z","text":"什么有争议 有流量 她做什么","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q40117a59c044a9c1fcb2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q8bdf8369ddd3d38c65c5","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":160,"speaker":"aiz***","date":"2026-08-26T13:38:04.125Z","text":"她给郭文贵邮寄剧毒保健品。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8bdf8369ddd3d38c65c5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qef6272bb8df76888f664","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":161,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:39:14.571Z","text":"魔女背后一定有水军","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qef6272bb8df76888f664","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q12e6c6c8a98938cb5939","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":162,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:47:22.229Z","text":"惨的不行 都住在监狱了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q12e6c6c8a98938cb5939","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q914a96726b0004cea2ad","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":163,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:48:04.079Z","text":"你和青藤 魔女 唯一的区别就是你在中共国","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q914a96726b0004cea2ad","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q9e1459d53f7d8bdbc2a1","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":164,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:51:57.841Z","text":"你们三个是 郭文贵灭共的基石","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9e1459d53f7d8bdbc2a1","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2d87a37a528c35989633","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":165,"speaker":"mon***","date":"2026-08-26T13:54:16.225Z","text":"回报每天的灭共新闻和工作部署","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2d87a37a528c35989633","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q72f523a8608720cbc0c2","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":166,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T14:42:24.342Z","text":"https://x.com/dDiVul8m3g82864/status/1992825262795563446/video/1?s=46","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q72f523a8608720cbc0c2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q096fc9895b2631a03d31","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":167,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-26T17:36:22.442Z","text":"https://youtu.be/ayGx8mJXaGw?si=3aiaWutm_IyydQVN","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q096fc9895b2631a03d31","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa6c34003062da760924f","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":168,"speaker":"Sap***","date":"2026-08-26T17:39:50.031Z","text":"很遗憾，用户 [删节：隐私信息] 离开了 **郭文贵法庭文件，不禁言不删帖**。希望他一路好走。","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa6c34003062da760924f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2031decd812fd3da49d2","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":169,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T21:01:49.855Z","text":"某人强制令","edited":false,"reply_to":"qa165932497feb67bfa42","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2031decd812fd3da49d2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q07810c183305f5121bf6","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":170,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-26T21:22:08.969Z","text":"請問是否每遞交一份強制令都必須同時交上$600美元？","edited":false,"reply_to":"q2031decd812fd3da49d2","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q07810c183305f5121bf6","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2031decd812fd3da49d2","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qe79082beddbfb05789b3","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":171,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T21:22:24.143Z","text":"新立案要交","edited":false,"reply_to":"q07810c183305f5121bf6","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe79082beddbfb05789b3","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q07810c183305f5121bf6","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q5ad377adb787b90f6429","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":172,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-26T21:23:27.118Z","text":"現在這個案件屬於新案還是舊案？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5ad377adb787b90f6429","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q2bf640c674efab737d7c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":173,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-26T21:24:16.966Z","text":"已經上二巡，是否算是新案？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2bf640c674efab737d7c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb86fd252063bae1c397b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":174,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-26T21:26:10.441Z","text":"看案件的編號871號，應該是算舊案吧？😉","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb86fd252063bae1c397b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q202eda5cd312202252f0","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":175,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T21:26:18.833Z","text":"一个docket number 等于 新案","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q202eda5cd312202252f0","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qdf7fba5736a12b0d0663","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":176,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T21:30:37.775Z","text":"现在还有人上强制令，不会又是灭爆安排的吧","edited":false,"reply_to":"q2031decd812fd3da49d2","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdf7fba5736a12b0d0663","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2031decd812fd3da49d2","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q997f750a7399f9a547d1","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":177,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T21:31:11.477Z","text":"灭爆只要有水平 上强制令我们应当欢迎","edited":false,"reply_to":"qdf7fba5736a12b0d0663","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q997f750a7399f9a547d1","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdf7fba5736a12b0d0663","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q1482daa7682eb09018a5","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":178,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T21:31:27.861Z","text":"我们一群人在二巡混战 才好玩","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1482daa7682eb09018a5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q7a74e36fa07555ba7ef6","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":179,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-26T21:31:32.632Z","text":"否则多没意思","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7a74e36fa07555ba7ef6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q0c5b5696bd8be1b2d8b8","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":180,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T21:32:21.562Z","text":"上诉律师也没动静，那个什么联邦机构也不回复","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0c5b5696bd8be1b2d8b8","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q3f1f9930c87efaf98353","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":181,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T21:32:47.824Z","text":"耗到什么时候","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3f1f9930c87efaf98353","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q35b5333a5709e8ec2730","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":182,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-26T21:33:35.820Z","text":"破产案一直紧锣密鼓的折腾，刑事案愣住不动了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q35b5333a5709e8ec2730","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa7454e0193c45f6dd3d1","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":183,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-26T21:34:51.648Z","text":"Dkt. 5782，2026年8月26日：主破产案 docket 记录 “Hearing Held. Order Granting to enter”，针对的是 Dkt. 5698——Luc 的第八次 Omnibus Rule 9019 和解动议。也就是说，法院已经举行听证，并决定批准这组与 Amazon Web Services, Inc.（AWS）和 Amazon.com, Inc. 的和解，正式批准令将进入相应 adversary proceedings。\n\nDkt. 5698涉及两个诉讼：Adv. 24-05006，Despins v. Amazon Web Services, Inc.，以及 Adv. 24-05057，Despins v. Amazon.com, Inc.。Luc原本主张，经所谓郭的 alter ego 实体向AWS发生的pre-/post-petition transfers累计约 $22.095 million；AWS否认责任。Amazon.com这一边，修改后的complaint主张相关transfers为 $657,510.83。双方后来经过法院主持的mediation达成和解。\n\n但有个重要限制：真正的和解付款金额和核心经济条款目前仍然密封。拟议批准令规定，完整和解协议和未删节材料至少在批准令进入后 180天 才会解封；批准后Luc可以立即实施和解。\n\nAmazon.com这一部分还有一点值得记住：和解没有解决Luc对 Hing Chi Ngok、Alex Hadjicharalambous、Chunguang Han和Mei Guo 的claims。Luc称其中某些Amazon付款是为了这些“Beneficiary Defendants”的利益，因此针对他们的追偿仍然继续。\n\n对你一直追的主线来说，这次5782主要意味着：Luc又把两宗大型avoidance诉讼转化成了estate recovery，减少了继续诉讼的成本和不确定性。但目前没有证据显示这组Amazon和解本身涉及 Dkt.5739的Estate Assets/Forfeiture Assets划分、§853(n)第三方产权或者SDNY刑事没收，所以它对 26-1853 暂时没有直接影响。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa7454e0193c45f6dd3d1","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qd7258a06699a6b4399bc","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":184,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-26T21:50:07.757Z","text":"先把人救出来再说。\n就算是一个落水老人我们都要救呀。何况人家在里面受到了这么多的冤屈和伤害。几千万的房子被烧，还被说成是自己烧的、毁灭证据。\n这种事发生在美国，是地球人的耻辱","edited":false,"reply_to":"q475f89ec76323da6e6d7","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd7258a06699a6b4399bc","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qfafc37525ca34e921dfc","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":185,"speaker":"sar***","date":"2026-08-26T21:55:21.773Z","text":"要把这种事做成，就必须象螺丝哥一样单纯，否则就会被人利用，象[删节：成员身份]一样当个犹大。😂","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfafc37525ca34e921dfc","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qd2dc6f817139d22c10bd","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":186,"speaker":"_ki***","date":"2026-08-27T00:23:15.687Z","text":"神 在吗 把螺丝哥捞出来啊 你不是神吗 这点事情 也不帮？","edited":false,"reply_to":"q7a74e36fa07555ba7ef6","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd2dc6f817139d22c10bd","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7a74e36fa07555ba7ef6","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qb95f6c306193465f9e04","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":187,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T00:24:00.099Z","text":"螺丝哥这货想制造主权司法冲突 捞他出来干什么？","edited":false,"reply_to":"qd2dc6f817139d22c10bd","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb95f6c306193465f9e04","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd2dc6f817139d22c10bd","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa9b5eb03060050a628bc","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":188,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-27T00:37:35.246Z","text":"但公安不可能給他定他想拿到的投資郭而想推翻共政權罪。只會隨便以一個罪給他，（如強奸，偷盜⋯⋯ ）之類的罪行。\n再這麼玩就不好了，隨時可能小命不保⋯⋯","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb95f6c306193465f9e04","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa9b5eb03060050a628bc","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb95f6c306193465f9e04","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qe027a05941d90b9a6311","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":189,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-27T00:40:15.532Z","text":"所以，為何他們要給老郭扣實詐騙罪。（之前的強奸罪沒有辦成）","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe027a05941d90b9a6311","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q9fb093a519094a87b5c6","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":190,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-27T00:41:34.460Z","text":"個人認為各位還是保護好自己及家人為首要。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9fb093a519094a87b5c6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qc0568f309dcd4f03961c","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":191,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T02:48:46.241Z","text":"我们之前讨论到了圆没收账的细节，特别是涉及个人取得没收和洗钱没收要分开列出各占多少这一点。对于以下分析，您怎么看？\n你问到了这个案子里最核心、也最容易被混淆的一点。我把它拆成两个独立的问题:标准是什么,和标准是否被正确适用。\n\n**第一步:先分清楚没收依据的是哪个罪名——这决定了\"obtained\"要件是否适用**\n\nHoneycutt限制的是 21 U.S.C. §853(a)(1)/(2) 里\"obtained, directly or indirectly\"这个文字,这个条款是通过 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(1)(C) + 28 U.S.C. §2461(c) 适用于**电信诈骗(wire fraud)这类罪名的\"收益\"没收**。但郭案的没收令如果同时锚定在**洗钱共谋**罪名上(18 U.S.C. §982(a)(1)),标准文字是\"property **involved in** the transaction\"(涉案财产),而不是\"obtained\"(取得的收益)。这是两套不同的法律语言:\n\n- \"obtained\"型没收 → Honeycutt的限制直接适用:必须证明被告本人取得(直接或间接)。\n- \"involved in\"型没收(洗钱)→ 门槛更宽:只要证明该笔资金是洗钱交易的一部分,**不需要证明最终受益人是被告本人**,哪怕钱最后进了家人口袋、进了第三方账户,只要这笔钱是被告参与设计/操作的洗钱交易链条上的资金,就可以没收。\n\n所以你说的\"投资者的钱进入某实体,实体的钱又进入郭的家人\"——如果法官是**用洗钱共谋这个定罪来锚定这部分没收**,那么政府确实不需要证明郭本人直接指示了这笔转账,只需要证明这个资金流转本身构成洗钱交易、且郭是该洗钱交易的共谋参与者即可。这在法律上是站得住的,Honeycutt管不到这一块。\n\n**第二步:货币判决(money judgment)本身也不要求逐笔追踪**\n\n即便是纯粹的欺诈收益没收,第二巡回区和其他巡回区普遍认为,针对被告的**个人货币没收判决**(in personam money judgment)不要求政府把每一笔钱像洗钱案里那样逐笔溯源到具体交易,只要求政府用优势证据证明**总额**是被告通过该欺诈计划取得的收益——可以用你提到的Z-26这类汇总性资金流水证据来估算总额。所以\"没有一份文件写着郭把这笔钱转给他女儿\"这一点本身,并不构成对没收令的致命打击——法律不要求这种逐笔证据。\n\n**第三步:但真正的破绽仍然在\"取得(obtained by Guo本人)\"这个归属环节,而不在\"逐笔追踪\"**\n\n这里回到你原来提的问题的本质。即使不需要逐笔追踪,政府仍然必须证明:**这笔从投资者流入实体、又流向家人的钱,是郭\"取得\"的**(至少是间接取得,即他对该资金流拥有支配权),而不是这些实体或家人自己独立取得、郭只是\"被证明控制着这条业务线的人事\"。\n\n如果政府证明\"郭控制该实体\"的证据,来源仅仅是:\n- 其他实体证人说\"一切都是郭在指挥控制\"(泛化的组织控制证言),\n- 而没有任何证据具体触及\"这个特定实体的资金去向是郭本人决定/知情/享有支配权的\"——\n\n那么即使洗钱共谋的\"involved in\"标准比\"obtained\"宽,政府依然需要证明**这笔具体资金流转确实是共谋链条的一部分、且郭是该链条的共谋人**,而不能仅凭\"郭是黑老大\"的泛化定罪结论,直接把所有具体实体的具体资金流都算作\"涉案\"或\"郭取得\"。这仍然是同一个\"组织身份证据≠具体财产/交易关联证据\"的问题,只是换了个罪名外壳。\n\n**对你策略的具体提示**\n\n建议在你的论证里把没收总额**按罪名拆开**逐项审查:\n1. 哪部分金额是单纯锚定在电信诈骗/GTV/G-Clubs/农场贷款欺诈的\"proceeds obtained\"理论上——这部分Honeycutt的\"必须是郭本人取得\"限制最强,也是你最容易攻击\"组织证据≠取得证据\"这个断层的地方。\n2. 哪部分金额是锚定在洗钱共谋的\"property involved in\"理论上——这部分Honeycutt保护弱,但你仍可以主张政府必须证明**具体资金流**构成洗钱交易且郭是该交易的共谋人,不能只用\"他是老大\"一笔带过。\n3. 如果法官的没收令(或政府的没收动议)没有做这种按罪名分项归因,而是笼统地把\"总收益\"一次性判给郭,这本身可能是一个可上诉的方法论错误——把不同证明标准的不同罪名的没收依据混为一谈。\n\n这些是一般法律框架分析,不构成法律意见,具体到你案件的没收令文本和政府的没收动议里到底是怎么归因、分项的,需要你逐条核对判决书和政府提交的forfeiture bill of particulars(如果有的话)。","edited":false,"reply_to":"qa7454e0193c45f6dd3d1","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc0568f309dcd4f03961c","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa7454e0193c45f6dd3d1","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q55db29c9a1845547cdab","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":192,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T02:49:31.822Z","text":"太复杂看不懂🤣","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q55db29c9a1845547cdab","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qeeb41aba78f9bc12d039","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":193,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T02:50:14.089Z","text":"［用户 reb***］  货币判决不需要逐笔追逐 没错。 但是这是在受害人框架稳定 损失金额没有争议的情况下","edited":true,"reply_to":"qc0568f309dcd4f03961c","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qeeb41aba78f9bc12d039","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc0568f309dcd4f03961c","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qa1378c9957c2643761e9","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":194,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T02:50:38.687Z","text":"让agent 分析","edited":false,"reply_to":"q55db29c9a1845547cdab","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa1378c9957c2643761e9","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q55db29c9a1845547cdab","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qe1e46a8edb0dab29daf6","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":195,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T02:50:43.972Z","text":"［用户 reb***］  现在 检方自己打螺丝哥的文件把自己的受害者框架彻底干爆了","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe1e46a8edb0dab29daf6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q85fcab2fee2233be2093","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":196,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T02:51:39.034Z","text":"［用户 reb***］ tony 主权 身份冲突 同一笔钱 你是诈骗罪 还是国安罪 有多少这样的情况 如果多了 托雷斯裁量权有没有衡量过 这些都不清楚 你说你不需要逐笔追逐 这不是笑话吗","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q85fcab2fee2233be2093","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q95c4fa1ad3749352363e","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":197,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T02:51:58.526Z","text":"［用户 kir***］ 检方自己说CVRA是郭的支持者","edited":true,"reply_to":"qe1e46a8edb0dab29daf6","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q95c4fa1ad3749352363e","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe1e46a8edb0dab29daf6","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"qaffee1e0afd1ba874d86","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":198,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T02:52:10.083Z","text":"然后问题就来了 谁是受害者","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qaffee1e0afd1ba874d86","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q499590f6c31ebf9ea3c5","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":199,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T02:52:14.204Z","text":"对的 所以 检方自己打自己脸","edited":false,"reply_to":"q95c4fa1ad3749352363e","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q499590f6c31ebf9ea3c5","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q95c4fa1ad3749352363e","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"},{"id":"q6ea5542bf825750ab219","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":200,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T02:52:37.880Z","text":"受害者框架崩溃 这个情况下  不需要逐笔追逐 这就是伪命题","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6ea5542bf825750ab219","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152"}],"prev_batch_id":"batch-000151","next_batch_id":"batch-000153"}