{"id":"batch-000153","number":153,"revision":3,"date_start":"2026-08-27T05:21:51.450Z","date_end":"2026-08-27T19:11:18.046Z","total_messages":260,"summary_en":"Community discussion, batch 153 (Aug 27, 2026 – Aug 27, 2026), 260 messages, on the Guo Wengui / Miles Guo (Ho Wan Kwok) case. Discussions centered on two main threads: establishing true organizational control and allocating financial liability. Participants debated whether being labeled the ultimate boss equated to actual financial disposition and transactional authority across distinct corporate entities. Regarding forfeiture and restitution, participants disputed whether amounts expanding from the indictment toward $517 million or $889 million could be attributed personally, and whether recovered funds were double-counted. Most favored auditing transactions individually rather than adopting blanket conclusions.","guide_en":[{"title":"Anomaly Rumors and CCP Infiltration Narratives: Token Delays Attributed to Backend Control","description":"Participants discuss whether token listing delays stemmed from backend tampering and speculate about external infiltration.","message_ids":["qf68fe790cc88cae26f1a","qbafcae7b6bbcf08fa60b","q3a7a902c261deaa8ba69"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qf68fe790cc88cae26f1a","summary_en":"wan*** contends that the nine-hour delay in listing Himalaya Coin indicates suspicious manipulation."},{"message_id":"qbafcae7b6bbcf08fa60b","summary_en":"wan*** argues that the Chinese Communist Party likely planted backend access in the system."},{"message_id":"q3a7a902c261deaa8ba69","summary_en":"wan*** asserts this demonstrates that the Himalaya Exchange was deeply controlled by the Chinese Communist Party from its inception."}]},{"title":"Shift from 'Boss' Monikers to Legal Analysis: Structuring Factual Control Arguments","description":"Participants evaluate the legal significance of informal leadership labels and their impact on alter-ego liability.","message_ids":["q9f699467a9e7bcb5b42b","q9a6d885bb8c5f6049a95","q810a65340807308fafb8"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q9f699467a9e7bcb5b42b","summary_en":"kir*** asks whether information regarding Qiang Guo and Haoran He remains credible."},{"message_id":"q9a6d885bb8c5f6049a95","summary_en":"beg*** contends that investigating alliance personnel and identifying who served as boss is pivotal to the alter-ego analysis."},{"message_id":"q810a65340807308fafb8","summary_en":"roy*** argues that determining the true boss is the central factual nexus impacting alter-ego findings, RICO attribution, hearsay rulings, and forfeiture calculations."}]},{"title":"Core Distinction from Reyes's Testimony: Informal Monikers Versus Corporate Governance Control","description":"Participants analyze Limarie Reyes's testimony to contrast informal titles with formal corporate governance and reporting chains.","message_ids":["q059842df5ab889fdd86d","qb205682d2f205f94e0f6","qf0bfe3aa43658ffbadb4"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q059842df5ab889fdd86d","summary_en":"roy*** examines testimony showing G Club nominal CEO Limarie Reyes reported to Haoran He and Yvette Wang rather than Guo, arguing that informal monikers do not establish formal corporate control."},{"message_id":"qb205682d2f205f94e0f6","summary_en":"roy*** argues that the label 'boss' was a prosecutorial narrative device rather than a corporate office, requiring strict evidentiary scrutiny."},{"message_id":"qf0bfe3aa43658ffbadb4","summary_en":"joh*** asserts that William Je, the Himalaya Exchange, Gair, Changdao, and the Alliance operated in close coordination."}]},{"title":"Second Circuit Strategy: Mapping Personnel, Entities, and Docket Numbers Across Control Chains","description":"Participants propose structuring an overarching analytical map linking case dockets, personnel, and corporate entities for appellate review.","message_ids":["qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","q865486a4b4b6b36d1e48","q0f965cf2be262cae4e55"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","summary_en":"beg*** contends that the Second Circuit will focus heavily on the specific roles of individual figures in the case."},{"message_id":"q865486a4b4b6b36d1e48","summary_en":"beg*** suggests creating an overview chart with personnel profiles and indexed docket numbers."},{"message_id":"q0f965cf2be262cae4e55","summary_en":"roy*** agrees to construct a master map to link each emerging docket entry directly to corresponding individuals and control chains."}]},{"title":"Timeline Clarification: Rule 2004 Discovery Preceded Public Indictment in 23-cr-118","description":"A participant reconstructs the chronology showing bankruptcy discovery under Rule 2004 preceded the public unsealing of the criminal case.","message_ids":["q6898de96543a8d0f3672"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q6898de96543a8d0f3672","summary_en":"roy*** recounts that the bankruptcy trustee issued a Rule 2004 subpoena on Dec 6, 2022 before 23-cr-118 was unsealed in Mar 2023, obtaining substantial records before filing alter-ego claims in Feb 2024."}]},{"title":"Disputed Forfeiture Scope: Questioning the Expansion from $37 Million to $517 Million and $889 Million","description":"Participants dispute the evidentiary basis for expanding forfeiture from specific transactions in the indictment to total gross inflows.","message_ids":["q1a902cbf437ce05ea732","qb900e4ffea9131975f7f","qbef6912d381b935fa856"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q1a902cbf437ce05ea732","summary_en":"roy*** argues that while the S3 indictment specified a $37 million yacht loan under Count 3, Dkt. 858 improperly incorporated roughly $517 million in Himalaya Exchange gross inflows into an $889 million judgment without specific laundering findings."},{"message_id":"qb900e4ffea9131975f7f","summary_en":"kir*** dismisses concerns regarding defrauded mainland investors."},{"message_id":"qbef6912d381b935fa856","summary_en":"joh*** contends that legal representation of exchange users was framed under forfeiture rules without challenging the asset seizures."}]},{"title":"Verifiable Gaps in Control Chain: Bank Signatory Authority Countering Blanket Control Claims","description":"Participants assess bank signatory records demonstrating that William Je exercised direct control over relevant accounts.","message_ids":["qa8c7fa3c9062468396fe","qca371fd04406e05304d4","qdf3ba76859e5d8607e31"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qa8c7fa3c9062468396fe","summary_en":"roy*** notes that government filings identify William Je as the sole signatory of the UAE ACA Capital Account, showing direct operational control rested with Je rather than Guo."},{"message_id":"qca371fd04406e05304d4","summary_en":"roy*** emphasizes that William Je personally transferred substantial funds from the ACA account to family members, third parties, and Guo family entities."},{"message_id":"qdf3ba76859e5d8607e31","summary_en":"joh*** argues that the prosecution failed to provide factual evidence in the S3 indictment proving that William Je took orders from Guo."}]},{"title":"Technical Legal Contention: Circular Reasoning Between Fraud and Money Laundering Classifications","description":"Participants debate whether characterizing ordinary operational transactions as money laundering involves circular reasoning.","message_ids":["qb3e5e4d1c89ccfc28272","qf4271a5cf3b2dc676dc2","qd17099faaf1319710801"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qb3e5e4d1c89ccfc28272","summary_en":"reb*** questions whether the entire $517 million underwent layered concealment transfers or whether legitimate business transfers were reclassified as money laundering after being labeled fraudulent."},{"message_id":"qf4271a5cf3b2dc676dc2","summary_en":"reb*** contends that using fraud to prove laundering and laundering to prove fraud constitutes circular reasoning."},{"message_id":"qd17099faaf1319710801","summary_en":"reb*** argues that justifying the $517 million exchange forfeiture inevitably relies on circular logic without separate evidence."}]},{"title":"Parallel Standards of 'Ultimate Boss' and Financial Dominion: Distinguishing Leadership from Fund Control","description":"Participants distinguish overall organizational status from continuous, legally required dominion over entity bank accounts.","message_ids":["q81f78ee517976f7b2344","qfb907bd4e02e12d9ab68","q4ff5098f980f1ef6f018"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q81f78ee517976f7b2344","summary_en":"roy*** argues that Dkt. 383 showed organizational status cannot substitute for proving actual agency or financial dominion under Rule 801 and Dkt. 858."},{"message_id":"qfb907bd4e02e12d9ab68","summary_en":"roy*** asserts that operational and banking control over the exchange rested with William Je, challenging Dkt. 858's conclusion that Guo controlled all assets."},{"message_id":"q4ff5098f980f1ef6f018","summary_en":"roy*** contends that the strongest point for appeal 26-1853 is challenging the $517 million exchange inclusion given William Je's direct control and the lack of specific fund-control findings."}]},{"title":"Audit Chain Discrepancy: Leanne Li's Testimony on Denied Audit Access and Independent Authority","description":"Participants analyze trial testimony regarding William Je's refusal to permit an audit ordered by Guo as evidence of operational independence.","message_ids":["qf50a317950c830acb8df","qfcac55c5fac3f1590f59","q9989db87ad673636b5e7"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qf50a317950c830acb8df","summary_en":"roy*** recounts trial testimony from Leanne Li stating that William Je denied her access to exchange financial records on consecutive days despite Guo's instructions and an active group chat."},{"message_id":"qfcac55c5fac3f1590f59","summary_en":"roy*** highlights defense filing Dkt. 822 citing testimony that William Je refused audit access even after Guo intervened, indicating operational veto authority."},{"message_id":"q9989db87ad673636b5e7","summary_en":"roy*** argues that while Je's refusal does not negate Guo's overall leadership, it directly rebuts Dkt. 858's claim that Guo possessed unconstrained control over all entities."}]},{"title":"Restitution and Victim Tracking Conflicts: Debt Assignment and Potential Double Recovery","description":"Participants examine whether assigning investor loan claims to Mountains of Spices LLC complicates victim loss calculations.","message_ids":["q23d409f35f38d107787e","q9578f1248094130a2964","q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q23d409f35f38d107787e","summary_en":"roy*** contends that Dkt. 858 blended RICO proceeds, fraud proceeds, and laundering-involved property into an $889 million total without separating the legal bases."},{"message_id":"q9578f1248094130a2964","summary_en":"roy*** describes how Phoenix Farm investors assigned loan rights to Mountains of Spices LLC, which recovered over $8.13 million, raising issues regarding victim loss definitions."},{"message_id":"q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f","summary_en":"joh*** contends that if Mountains of Spices LLC kept the recovered $8 million without distributing it to investors, that sum should not be counted as fraud loss in the criminal case."}]},{"title":"The $8 Million Maywind Settlement: Contextualizing Farm Funds as Civil Restitution","description":"Participants evaluate whether the $8 million settlement involving Sara Wei constituted illicit laundering or a civil refund.","message_ids":["q6823345a8ec657af0b4e","q328eaee8b7129f14ce34","q8026eebcc03d56532e47"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q6823345a8ec657af0b4e","summary_en":"joh*** asks about Mountains of Spices' role in bankruptcy settlements after receiving an $8 million settlement from Sara Wei."},{"message_id":"q328eaee8b7129f14ce34","summary_en":"joh*** asserts that litigation converted the $8 million from investment funds into settlement refunds, arguing it functioned as covert laundering."},{"message_id":"q8026eebcc03d56532e47","summary_en":"joh*** suggests that such settlement arrangements were used by factions to quietly withhold funds."}]},{"title":"Methodological Division: Advocating Entity-by-Entity Assessment Over Wholesale Consolidation","description":"Participants argue against consolidating all affiliated programs, advocating for individualized assessments of each corporate structure.","message_ids":["q421c415351036eca9673","qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","q9ef61207a0f9d7896148"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q421c415351036eca9673","summary_en":"joh*** argues that because individual entities maintained independent operations, criminal liabilities and forfeiture amounts should be assessed separately."},{"message_id":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","summary_en":"roy*** contends that appellate scrutiny under Dkt. 858 must distinguish operational control across programs like the exchange, G Club, and Farm loans rather than pooling all inflows."},{"message_id":"q9ef61207a0f9d7896148","summary_en":"joh*** argues that farm entities operated independently despite prosecutors downplaying their distinct role in moving funds."}]}],"summary":"讨论围绕两条主线展开。第一条是“谁是真正控制者”：有成员在异动事件中上升到‘后台控制’与最高BOSS叙事，也有成员要求回到庭审与文件，指出“被称为boss”与财务处分权、账户操作权可能不一致，不同实体之间出现联合治理与分层控制。第二条是“金额与责任归属”：起诉书与后续判决的没收金额、5.17亿或8.89亿是否可直接并入郭个人、追回款是否重复计入损失，以及受害者范围均有分歧。多数观点趋向“人物—实体—交易—证据”逐案复核，反对用单一口径下定结论。","guide":[{"title":"异常传闻与“中共植入”叙事：网站/代币异常被解读为后台控制，但多为群内猜测与情绪化归因","message_ids":["qf68fe790cc88cae26f1a","qbafcae7b6bbcf08fa60b","q3a7a902c261deaa8ba69"]},{"title":"“是否boss”争论转为法律命题：把称谓讨论转向对关键控制事实的框架化分析","message_ids":["q9f699467a9e7bcb5b42b","q9a6d885bb8c5f6049a95","q810a65340807308fafb8"]},{"title":"Reyes证词引发的核心区分：有人称其‘boss’并不自动等于公司实际控制权，控制链需分层核验","message_ids":["q059842df5ab889fdd86d","qb205682d2f205f94e0f6","qf0bfe3aa43658ffbadb4"]},{"title":"二巡思路转向：尝试用人物—实体—案件编号总地图持续挂接控制关系","message_ids":["qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","q865486a4b4b6b36d1e48","q0f965cf2be262cae4e55"]},{"title":"时间线纠偏：Rule 2004调查先于23-cr-118公开起诉，后续主张以先取证为前提","message_ids":["q6898de96543a8d0f3672"]},{"title":"没收范围仍具争议：起诉书与后续结论的金额口径由约3700万扩展到5.17亿/8.89亿被反复质疑","message_ids":["q1a902cbf437ce05ea732","qb900e4ffea9131975f7f","qbef6912d381b935fa856"]},{"title":"控制链出现可核验间隙：KYC与签字权资料被视为对“郭直接控制全部”主张的反证点","message_ids":["qa8c7fa3c9062468396fe","qca371fd04406e05304d4","qdf3ba76859e5d8607e31"]},{"title":"技术争点升级：是否以‘诈骗推洗钱’形成循环论证，5.17亿是否全都具备洗钱属性缺乏一致定论","message_ids":["qb3e5e4d1c89ccfc28272","qf4271a5cf3b2dc676dc2","qd17099faaf1319710801"]},{"title":"“最高Boss”与持续资金控制口径并行：高层领导地位与日常财务处分权被指出可能不可直接重叠","message_ids":["q81f78ee517976f7b2344","qfb907bd4e02e12d9ab68","q4ff5098f980f1ef6f018"]},{"title":"审计链关键争点：Leanne Li证词与审计请求-拒绝的争议共同提示，是否成立仍需庭审逐字核对","message_ids":["qf50a317950c830acb8df","qfcac55c5fac3f1590f59","q9989db87ad673636b5e7"]},{"title":"Arizona与受害者追踪口径冲突：追回款/债权移转与原始损失是否重复计入仍无统一结论","message_ids":["q23d409f35f38d107787e","q9578f1248094130a2964","q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f"]},{"title":"“800万”与Maywind相关款项被调整为民事退款语境，暂不直接支持洗白或额外骗款定性","message_ids":["q6823345a8ec657af0b4e","q328eaee8b7129f14ce34","q8026eebcc03d56532e47"]},{"title":"方法论分化：反对把所有实体一概并入，主张按HEX、G Club、Farm、GTV等逐一拆解后再评估","message_ids":["q421c415351036eca9673","qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","q9ef61207a0f9d7896148"]}],"closed":true,"is_finalized":true,"updated_at":"2026-09-06T19:36:48.423Z","notice":"这里汇集爆料革命参与者围绕郭文贵案的持续讨论，包括长期深度参与者及自述投入真金白银的投资者。他们分享亲历过程、资金投入与后续遭遇，并结合案卷展开追问、核对和观点交锋。这些来自事件内部的经验与细节，为理解事件经过和投资者处境提供了外部报道之外的重要视角。请结合具体发言判断其经历与依据，引用时保留发言者、时间和上下文。","content_type":"discussion_batch","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153/pages/2","base_batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-batches/batch-000153?page=2","page":2,"page_size":200,"total_pages":2,"has_more":false,"next_url":null,"prev_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-batches/batch-000153","messages":[{"id":"qfd01919a9c7b137e17ed","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":201,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:23:01.932Z","text":"不过你这句话里面有两部分现在还不能当事实说。\n\n第一：\n\n“演员们通过灭共表演骗取郭和投资者信任。”\n\n这涉及他们从一开始就有诈骗故意。目前需要逐人证明，不能统一下结论。\n\n第二：\n\n“干坏事的人后来都成了污点证人。”\n\n有些确实认罪或与政府合作，但不是所有参与运营的人都属于法律意义上的“污点证人”，要逐个分类。\n\n所以最稳、最有杀伤力的表达不是：\n\n“郭是好人，他们都是坏人。”\n\n而是：\n\n政府的理论可能把“信用提供者、推广者、社群领袖、问责者”与“实际运营者、账户控制者、交易执行者”混成了一个统一的Boss控制模型。真正需要法院审查的是，每一项犯罪行为、每一笔资金和每一个实体，到底是谁实际决定、谁实际执行、谁能拒绝谁。\n\n这个版本更容易经得住政府反驳。\n\n而且如果最后人物—实体—资金总索引做出来，出现一种稳定模式：\n\n郭负责宣传/号召/重大方向\n\nWang负责日常\n\nJe负责金融和HEX/ACA\n\n何浩然负责G Club正式权限\n\nFarm leaders自己控制本地账户\n\n郭发现问题后不断要求审计、退款、整改\n\n但经常不能直接执行\n\n那你现在这个理论就会从“解释故事”升级成一套真正有证据支撑的：\n\nalternative control theory（替代控制解释）。\n\n而这可能是整个26-1853里非常有价值的一条主线。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfd01919a9c7b137e17ed","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q192e1c3087498e8c5965","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":202,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:23:23.412Z","text":"他让审查喜币，余不听啊","edited":false,"reply_to":"qbe558eaa57aa2f604aac","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q192e1c3087498e8c5965","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbe558eaa57aa2f604aac","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qa66c86bc2b01897fcfff","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":203,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:23:34.164Z","text":"郭根本无法控制余","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa66c86bc2b01897fcfff","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qcb866a78fcb80193b324","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":204,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:24:06.389Z","text":"再说让审查，就是控制了？那媒体监督川普币，媒体控制川普币啊？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qcb866a78fcb80193b324","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qfc4bd8384446e7498857","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":205,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:24:08.082Z","text":"你的这个感觉，和目前我们挖出来的记录结构是高度一致的，但法律上最好把它说成“Boss标签被当成多个独立法律门槛的替代品”，而不是直接说“政府完全不管程序”。\n\n现在看起来，政府确实反复把同一个总判断——\n\n郭是Boss / ultimate leader / mastermind\n\n拿去完成几种本来应该分别证明的事情：\n\n* 证明某些联盟/Farm/HEX人员的话可以归给郭；\n* 证明这些人是郭的代理人或共谋者；\n* 证明相关公司受郭实际控制；\n* 证明公司资产可以归郭；\n* 最后再证明889m里的大量资金可以算成郭个人没收责任。\n\n问题就在于，这些法律问题不是同一个标准。\n\n比如：\n\n“郭是RICO最高领导人”\n\n可能很容易成立；\n\n但这不等于：\n\n“Je控制的HEX账户全部由郭处分”；\n\n也不等于：\n\n“Haoran He名下G Club资产全部是郭的”；\n\n更不等于：\n\n“一个HEX普通员工就是郭的代理人”；\n\n还不等于：\n\n“所有gross inflows都是郭本人取得的犯罪所得”。\n\n目前最值得26-1853审查的，其实就是这种法律门槛被统一Boss结论压平的现象。\n\n而你说“只要程序上能做到就这么做”，从现有记录里也能看到类似模式：法院很多时候确实接受了政府提出的程序路径，比如用代理人/共谋者规则放入statement、用Rule 1006汇总图整理资金、用Rule 32.2处理没收、用alter ego扩大资产范围。这些程序本身可能都合法，但合法使用程序，不等于每一步事实基础都充分。\n\n所以真正的上诉问题不是：\n\n“法院用了这些程序，所以程序违法。”\n\n而是：\n\n法院是否把程序工具本身，变成了替代实质证明的捷径。\n\n这才是现在最强的总主题。\n\n我会把它压成一句最适合二巡思路的话：\n\n“Boss”可以证明领导地位，但不能自动替代对代理关系、共谋成员身份、实体控制、资金处分权和法定没收归因的分别证明。\n\n如果二巡接受这个框架，858尤其危险，因为它最明显地把：\n\nBoss\n→ all entities\n→ all assets\n→ $889m\n\n连成了一条总链，而没有逐实体、逐账户、逐法源拆开。\n\n所以你的直觉不是“政府随便干”，而更准确地说：\n\n政府找到一个非常有力的总叙事标签，然后不断把它跨法律问题复用；法官也在多个程序节点采纳了这个标签。真正需要上诉法院检查的是，这种复用有没有越过每个法律规则本来要求的独立证明。","edited":false,"reply_to":"qa1570a0eb197c24d6a59","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfc4bd8384446e7498857","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa1570a0eb197c24d6a59","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe4285ce3fbd19284d87e","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":206,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T12:25:09.388Z","text":"最他妈让人厌恶，最疯狂的是，那些人几乎全部不抓，还在继续骗人，然后还继续张口就来这些骗人是郭在指挥，已经有投资者在巡回法院指出这一问题了，它们还在这么说，真是没有语言来形容这种疯狂。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe4285ce3fbd19284d87e","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q59ab70cbb69c23b631ab","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":207,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-27T12:25:41.505Z","text":"第三方把程序 主权 等等相关问题都上了。 由于这个案子被故意的堆成了上百万份文件/一个人一辈子可能都看不完，二巡法官也一样，但是我们给他们鲁清楚 来龙去脉，他们的工作就简单多了","edited":false,"reply_to":"qbf053ad48de107d41e32","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q59ab70cbb69c23b631ab","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbf053ad48de107d41e32","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q7d58898333cf17b4e270","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":208,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:27:02.812Z","text":"从债权人登记，这个局就开始设计好了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7d58898333cf17b4e270","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qb594a40be5f3b8c176d3","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":209,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:27:38.722Z","text":"所以用AI查下来很容易就发现案子的问题，必然推翻","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb594a40be5f3b8c176d3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q8270ac21c7252d407638","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":210,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:28:34.864Z","text":"这么简单的造假案","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8270ac21c7252d407638","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q538841eb820cba9a0324","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":211,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:28:50.127Z","text":"你用常识和逻辑不就能分析出来了吗","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q538841eb820cba9a0324","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q515ffaba637ed6342c48","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":212,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:29:19.753Z","text":"AI越分析，越复杂，就是忽悠人","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q515ffaba637ed6342c48","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qa00688ca70a054947a10","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":213,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:30:12.230Z","text":"郭是不是控制G系列，拿没拿钱，有没有人事任命权？luc的债权人登记是不是真的？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa00688ca70a054947a10","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qf57382c5a60a811f366d","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":214,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:30:25.312Z","text":"不就这么简单的事情吗","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf57382c5a60a811f366d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qfd7648a7184c140678e3","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":215,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:31:03.340Z","text":"到底多少受害者？一共不到50个，检方说上千","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfd7648a7184c140678e3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q1ec7bb2d955911c6cfc5","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":216,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:31:10.225Z","text":"最容易骗普通人的，恰恰不是复杂分析，而是‘一句话告诉你真相’。法律案卷几万页，谁要是告诉你三句话就能讲明白，那才该警惕。你要反驳很简单：拿原始案卷出来，指出我们哪条证据链错了。别拿‘我看不懂，所以你在忽悠’当结论","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1ec7bb2d955911c6cfc5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q59371783df53188e118f","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":217,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:31:20.902Z","text":"你用常识和逻辑分析不就知道了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q59371783df53188e118f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q112969cc325487bd4564","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":218,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:31:55.664Z","text":"几万页不就是忽悠你的吗？把你搞晕，输掉庭审","edited":false,"reply_to":"q1ec7bb2d955911c6cfc5","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q112969cc325487bd4564","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1ec7bb2d955911c6cfc5","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q311b74491609894d9690","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":219,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:34:47.234Z","text":"战友们要学会抓重点啊","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q311b74491609894d9690","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q421c415351036eca9673","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":220,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:37:32.416Z","text":"这样拆分下来，几个实体，有实际独立的运作体系\n追责的话，也要分开担责\n比如郭8.9亿judgement，是扣除4亿的GTV，那么同理，HEX是Je主导，是不是也要扣除","edited":false,"reply_to":"qfc4bd8384446e7498857","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q421c415351036eca9673","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfc4bd8384446e7498857","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":221,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:39:53.969Z","text":"对，你这个理解大方向是对的，但法律上还要再收紧一点：\n\n如果几个实体确实各自存在相对独立的法人结构、账户、管理人员、签字权、内部系统和业务流程，那么追责时原则上不能仅凭“都属于同一个圈子、最终有同一个Boss”就把所有责任和全部资金自动合并到一个人头上。\n\n刑事案件里其实要分开看至少三个问题：第一，谁参与了哪个犯罪项目；第二，谁实际取得或控制了哪个项目的资金；第三，某个实体的责任能不能进一步归到个人，或者归到其他实体。这三个问题不是一回事。\n\n尤其你现在拆出来的HEX特别典型：Je被记录为HEX相关实体的owner/operator、账户authorized signer、UBO，技术系统和wallet又由Je的基金或实体控制；这些事实说明HEX至少存在一套非常具体的独立运营链。郭即使能影响Je、参与HEX宣传，甚至要求某些特定资金怎么使用，也不当然意味着HEX全部资金都变成郭个人取得的资金。这中间仍然需要证明郭对那些资金具有法律要求的实际或间接控制。\n\nG Club也是类似，只不过政府在G Club上的证据明显比HEX更强，因为有具体的“green light”、消费指令、资金用途等材料。所以不能简单说“G Club也完全独立，因此郭不负责”。更准确的说法应该是：\n\n每个实体必须分别分析；每一笔或每一类资金，也必须结合该实体的实际控制结构判断归责范围。\n\n这其实正是现在最值得抓的地方。\n\n比如可以把责任拆成：\n\n* HEX：Je直接运营、直接控制账户/技术系统 → 郭到底控制到什么程度？\n* G Club：Haoran He / Alex等拥有正式治理或账户角色 → 郭有哪些具体付款决定权？\n* Farm Loan：各Farm怎么收款、谁签合同、谁控制账户 → 郭具体取得多少？\n* GTV：这里政府对郭“functionally owned and controlled”的证据又可能更强 → 要单独评价。\n\n所以最后的结果完全可能不是“郭全部负责”或“郭全部不负责”这两个极端，而是：\n\n某些实体、某些交易、某些资金郭可以承担责任；\n另一些资金由Je、He或其他实体直接取得和控制；\n只有政府证明郭本人曾取得或控制的部分，才适合计入某些个人没收法源下的money judgment。\n\n这里还有一个特别重要的区别：共谋刑事责任可以很宽，但个人没收责任现在不能简单照搬传统共谋连带责任。 一个人可能因为参与共同诈骗而被定罪，但并不意味着整个共谋收到的每一美元，都能自动作为他“personally obtained”的钱没收。\n\n所以你现在这句话，我会改成最精确的一版：\n\n既然几个实体存在各自独立的运营、账户和控制体系，那么无论定罪责任还是个人没收责任，都应当逐实体、逐项目分析；特别是个人没收，不能仅凭整个企业存在共同领导人，就把所有实体的全部流入资金自动归到同一个人名下。\n\n而这恰好就是858最值得二巡追问的地方：它不是先分别算HEX、G Club、Farm中郭取得了多少，再合计；而是先作出“郭控制全部实体和资产”的总括finding，然后把三个体系的gross inflows整体加起来。真正的争议就在这一步","edited":false,"reply_to":"q421c415351036eca9673","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q421c415351036eca9673","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qa7a6fdfa20d702fb99ea","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":222,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:40:35.500Z","text":"郭在G系列拿过一分钱吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa7a6fdfa20d702fb99ea","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q98f16b8085b51cd9aef4","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":223,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:42:55.353Z","text":"https://x.com/andrewh45405394/status/2092749080023945512?s=46","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q98f16b8085b51cd9aef4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q067aa83fa0e5fa58255a","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":224,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:45:42.779Z","text":"这样一整，farm loan负责人长岛（合同签字人），HEX负责人Je，Gclub受益人He，都要单独出来\nJe在2022年要从喜交所出金4600w，这是明显违规\n长岛的那800w，也要说清楚\nHe关于gclub的，也要单独拿出来说","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q067aa83fa0e5fa58255a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q64d2327f027a8cc289d2","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":225,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:46:20.851Z","text":"难道青藤没事？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q64d2327f027a8cc289d2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q3e479c14c12b6c132d46","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":226,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:46:33.962Z","text":"AAA法人","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3e479c14c12b6c132d46","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qadf645a312063895a8c8","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":227,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T12:48:13.729Z","text":"青藤在磐石农场的事情，它要负责任。后来的这个所谓联盟，已经与郭案里的联盟没关系了。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q64d2327f027a8cc289d2","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qadf645a312063895a8c8","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q64d2327f027a8cc289d2","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qaaff7354b2e95a5aade6","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":228,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:48:17.918Z","text":"希望如此","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qaaff7354b2e95a5aade6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q02d2eeae60a3f1d53239","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":229,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:53:03.876Z","text":"这段看下来，很显然，858强行量刑后，最终没收令难产，因为没办法圆了","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q02d2eeae60a3f1d53239","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q5a0954cdb0b7bcf38b5f","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":230,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T12:57:09.181Z","text":"起诉书里G enterprise 的组成里，联盟农场是用the Himalaya farm alliance，还解释说是分布在全球各地的非正式团体的联合，这些非正式团体叫农场。这实际上是把所有农场都列在了rico里，理论上每个农场的资金都要有个交待，但似乎整个卷宗政府都没提到几个农场。我看到了它说纽约香草山农场和凤凰农场。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5a0954cdb0b7bcf38b5f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q9ef61207a0f9d7896148","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":231,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:57:52.234Z","text":"farm loan 这块，所有农场主都噤声，估计是怕被卷进来\n但是魏丽红和长岛这个事，说明这些农场公司，都是独立运作\n检方是在故意淡化农场\n其实不论GTV HEX，这个过程，都有农场参与\n300骨干，在农场里是转钱的参与者","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9ef61207a0f9d7896148","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q3d257d0263524a8b13f6","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":232,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:59:23.546Z","text":"这个案子起诉的是郭，王，余","edited":false,"reply_to":"q5a0954cdb0b7bcf38b5f","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3d257d0263524a8b13f6","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5a0954cdb0b7bcf38b5f","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qc3fdc2a6be5f8fa05fdc","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":233,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:00:23.432Z","text":"起诉郭是因为，检方说，他用战友的钱买了游艇，玛娃庄园，供他自己享用。他没有给战友股票。他虚假陈述，等等罪名。你先搞清楚检方到底起诉了郭什么","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc3fdc2a6be5f8fa05fdc","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe917682599774b82690d","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":234,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:01:10.426Z","text":"联盟农场贪污战友的钱，截留投资，是另外一件事情。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe917682599774b82690d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q985f56e531cf4455bec3","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":235,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:02:44.437Z","text":"你们分析案子，是不是先应该搞搞清楚，他们起诉了郭什么，起诉了王什么，起诉了余什么","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q985f56e531cf4455bec3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qc05506daefaecdbaa8b2","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":236,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:02:55.015Z","text":"而不是臆想","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc05506daefaecdbaa8b2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q528db2c0cd8e0f0bbfd1","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":237,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:04:36.574Z","text":"阿哲猪贝贝老江说，这个案子是要Rico盗国贼，Rico联盟农场。怎么Rico，你让他们说清楚。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q528db2c0cd8e0f0bbfd1","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qbde2baf766d3e2543cde","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":238,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T13:09:51.631Z","text":"这8.9亿没收，检方自己都没法圆场，没收进行不下去\n又有Tony的文件，连没收的合法性，都不存在\n律所的AI，当然知道案子的走向，luc和南区检方和解，是在退一步\n下面300骨干未起诉共谋，可能是牺牲品，也就可以理解，为什么他们开始谈暗杀","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbde2baf766d3e2543cde","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q56c146611dfb0949cf13","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":239,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T13:15:33.331Z","text":"墙内，这些人回不去，因为和习，不是一路人","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q56c146611dfb0949cf13","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q51b08d9ddf37b5204e28","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":240,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T13:15:42.502Z","text":"墙外，假政庇查的紧，随着案子的进展，他们暴露是迟早的事","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q51b08d9ddf37b5204e28","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q03fbf1002a02ed0b4e35","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":241,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-27T13:58:50.335Z","text":"去看看老郭被定了哪些罪行不就清楚了嗎？","edited":false,"reply_to":"qe917682599774b82690d","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q03fbf1002a02ed0b4e35","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe917682599774b82690d","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q709e89152a556e4d692f","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":242,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T15:51:08.956Z","text":"https://x.com/Haier918/status/2093003345707319465","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q709e89152a556e4d692f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":243,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T16:09:52.458Z","text":"https://x.com/Haier918/status/2093008019571274003","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q722481c79c5928a78ed2","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":244,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T16:13:14.804Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 急了这是\n生怕破产案luc没法和解\n要韭菜去给luc增加帮手","edited":true,"reply_to":"q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q722481c79c5928a78ed2","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qbac6bf78bd3345903682","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":245,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T16:20:27.295Z","text":"因为他已经自爆了，螺丝在不在也轮不到他发号施令了，没盼头了","edited":false,"reply_to":"q04f9c9f34ca52439959d","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbac6bf78bd3345903682","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qf504e36432f00abb4055","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":246,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T16:25:12.949Z","text":"郭身边每一个都是预先埋伏好的，郭不闹就老实给郭打工，郭一不对劲这些人直接秒变潜伏者，全方位监控渗透搞破坏。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q132af530f8da39ca2605","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf504e36432f00abb4055","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q132af530f8da39ca2605","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe127d8f2a99eb8a473d2","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":247,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T16:30:10.557Z","text":"花名册","edited":false,"reply_to":"qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe127d8f2a99eb8a473d2","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q6a2a00b23c167055fce8","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":248,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T16:34:29.392Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 安小东傻X，破产案luc，原本就够不着Gclub的资产，针对gclub的alter ego诉讼，还没有裁定\n政府 luc gclub 三方还在破产案扯皮，gclub怎么可能被划给luc？睁着眼睛说瞎话","edited":true,"reply_to":"q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6a2a00b23c167055fce8","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe78d1973b7f09862f39d","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":249,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T16:35:17.954Z","text":"你来画一张人物、公司关系图吧，配上相关简介，包括职务，权限，相互关系……越详细越好","edited":false,"reply_to":"q0f965cf2be262cae4e55","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe78d1973b7f09862f39d","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f965cf2be262cae4e55","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q12c5b55b94238fee1609","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":250,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T16:59:02.323Z","text":"https://x.com/Haier918/status/2093020398602604598","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q12c5b55b94238fee1609","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q76acc1dbf99ad3b56822","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":251,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:00:51.219Z","text":"[删节：成员身份] gclub已经申请延期5天提交补充动议，之前不知道这件事的，也可以申请逾期提交异议","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q76acc1dbf99ad3b56822","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q04c2726ac227d117ba5c","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":252,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T17:01:43.577Z","text":"［用户 him***］  刑事案自诉发邮件程序你他妈都没搞清楚 还想搞破产案","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q04c2726ac227d117ba5c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe61143e77407ff17a420","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":253,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T17:03:38.491Z","text":"［用户 him***］  破产案逾期反对 繁文缛节你能搞定？","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe61143e77407ff17a420","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q41db2ba2b04e02087714","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":254,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T17:09:19.763Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 用himam这个号发，有用吗？\n为嘛不用安小东的推，发教程🤣","edited":true,"reply_to":"q76acc1dbf99ad3b56822","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q41db2ba2b04e02087714","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q76acc1dbf99ad3b56822","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qd61a3dabf2c21beb8227","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":255,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:19:55.704Z","text":"现在和战友们比较相关的事情就是luc要抢gclub钱这件事了，但是联盟农场各方都不谈这件事，都把你们的注意力引到别的地方去。gclub的战友在欧美的很多吧？请个律师或者自己发信给康州法庭自诉，很难吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd61a3dabf2c21beb8227","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe61dab6c4e38b99b9ce1","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":256,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T17:20:32.450Z","text":"［用户 him***］ [屏蔽词] 你自己去看看逾期反对动议是什么难度级别 你他妈就不会在这里吹逼了","edited":true,"reply_to":"qd61a3dabf2c21beb8227","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe61dab6c4e38b99b9ce1","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd61a3dabf2c21beb8227","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q5f2bda1ef0d152b52a3c","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":257,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:23:41.597Z","text":"天天抓特务的，聊八卦的，骂联盟农场的，都是转移注意力的。真正应该关心的是法律程序和你们的钱啊，喜国战友们。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5f2bda1ef0d152b52a3c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q5ad54c9218205c635880","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":258,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:31:05.602Z","text":"Gclub的异议中已经说了，这次法庭给的时间不够，他们申请延期。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5ad54c9218205c635880","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q2a83dde221b9775a96af","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":259,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:31:38.776Z","text":"如果法庭给的时间不够，普通人也没时间反应。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2a83dde221b9775a96af","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q2ab9f2e2083a01b41af3","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":260,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T19:11:18.046Z","text":"有一份值得通知的新材料。主破产案 22-50073 本身截至这轮检查，公开 docket 最新仍停在 Dkt. 5786（2026年8月26日），我没有看到新的5787以后实体文件，也仍没有看到Manning签署 Dkt.5739 Global Settlement最终批准令。Dkt.5784设定的下一步仍是5746/5747/5751/5752补充异议和Luc后续统一回复。\n\n但是我发现了一份此前没有通知到你的、2026年8月25日刚作出的地区法院实质判决：\n\nD. Conn. Civil No. 3:25-cv-1131 (KAD), Dkt. 28 — Memorandum of Decision，2026年8月25日。 这是从破产案 Adv. Proc. 23-05023 上诉出来的案件，原告/上诉方包括 Hudson Diamond NY LLC、Hudson Diamond Holding LLC、Leading Shine NY Ltd. 和 Mei Guo。Judge Kari A. Dooley 完整维持了Manning法官2025年6月17日的summary judgment：Hudson Diamond NY 和 Leading Shine 是郭的alter egos；郭对这两家公司的资产以及银行、金融、证券账户具有equitable/beneficial ownership；相关资产和membership interests应交给Luc作为Chapter 11 Trustee。 \n\n这份判决比普通avoidance action更重要，因为上诉方专门争辩：即使公司是alter ego，州法也不等于能把公司的财产直接变成郭的财产。Dooley明确不同意，认定一旦州法确定郭对alter ego实体具有相应权益，联邦破产法决定这些权益是否进入bankruptcy estate，并维持资产turnover。\n\n而且Dooley直接依赖二巡今年的 In re Kwok, 172 F.4th 145 (2d Cir. 2026)。她认定§544允许Luc提出这种generalized alter-ego / reverse veil-piercing claim，因为目的不是替某一个债权人单独索赔，而是扩大所有债权人共同可分配的estate资产池。因此，Luc对Hudson Diamond NY和Leading Shine提这种产权/alter-ego诉讼的standing再次被确认。\n\n这对你现在追的 5739资产划分有直接意义：继Mahwah之后，Luc又拿到一份地区法院层级的affirmance，确认另一组名义上由第三方公司/郭美持有的公司资产可以作为郭的estate property处理。也就是说，Luc在和Government谈“哪些属于Estate Assets”时，他在破产侧的产权基础又被加强了一层。对于Hudson Diamond/Leading Shine这条线，单纯再说“公司名义上不是郭的，所以Luc没有权碰”现在明显更难。\n\n但这份判决没有裁定刑事没收优先级，也没有裁§853(n)。它没有说如果Hudson Diamond、Leading Shine的某笔资产同时属于SDNY 23-cr-118的forfeiture property，究竟Government还是bankruptcy estate优先。因此它加强的是Luc在bankruptcy一侧的ownership/turnover基础，并不自动解决我们一直讨论的另一个问题：当同一specific property同时进入刑事forfeiture体系时，Government和Luc能否单靠5739和解处理，而不让有独立产权的第三方走应有程序。\n\n对 Second Circuit 26-1853 的意义目前也是间接的。这不是刑事上诉裁定，也没有解释Dkt.858、Rule 32.2或Government执行裁量，因此不能拿它直接证明858正确或错误；但它形成了另一份经District Court确认的司法记录，认定郭对若干名义第三方实体存在beneficial ownership和domination/control。政府以后如果需要支持“某些G系列外围公司资产实际上属于郭/其estate”的背景叙事，这份判决会有用。另一方面，它仍然不能填补858针对每一个刑事项目全部gross inflows是否都由郭 personally obtained/control的那座桥。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2ab9f2e2083a01b41af3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"}],"prev_batch_id":"batch-000152","next_batch_id":"batch-000154"}