{"id":"batch-000153","number":153,"revision":3,"date_start":"2026-08-27T05:21:51.450Z","date_end":"2026-08-27T19:11:18.046Z","total_messages":260,"summary_en":"Community discussion, batch 153 (Aug 27, 2026 – Aug 27, 2026), 260 messages, on the Guo Wengui / Miles Guo (Ho Wan Kwok) case. Batch 153 (Aug 27, 2026) centers on two disputes: who actually controlled key entities and funds, and how forfeiture amounts should be attributed. Participants argue over a “boss” label versus documented operational authority, with focus on Himalaya Exchange, G Club, and related projects. They dispute how Count 3, Rule 2004 subpoena timing, Dkt.940/2331, Dkt.803, Dkt.822, Dkt.826-1, GXZ26, and later judgments in 720 and 858 support allocation between identified transactions and broader gross-inflow totals around $5.17b and $8.89b. Community statements, not court findings.","guide_en":[{"title":"Rumor-driven anomaly narrative: exchange and token behavior is framed as hidden backend control","description":"Participants first argue from market anomaly speculation and then claim it supports a hidden-control narrative, but these are positioned as conjectural indicators rather than verified governance proof. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qf68fe790cc88cae26f1a","qbafcae7b6bbcf08fa60b","q3a7a902c261deaa8ba69"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qf68fe790cc88cae26f1a","summary_en":"A participant claims the nine-hour token listing delay looked suspicious and likely indicated internal manipulation. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qbafcae7b6bbcf08fa60b","summary_en":"Another participant argues the exchange was influenced by a state-backed backend insertion from the beginning. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q3a7a902c261deaa8ba69","summary_en":"A related participant contends that early exchange behavior proves deep early backend control by a political actor. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"'Who is the boss' debate reframed as a legal control inquiry","description":"Participants claim the leadership dispute has become a legal foundation issue, arguing that the boss label now drives analyses across alter ego, RICO, and forfeiture attribution. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q9f699467a9e7bcb5b42b","q9a6d885bb8c5f6049a95","q810a65340807308fafb8"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q9f699467a9e7bcb5b42b","summary_en":"A member asks whether the Guo/He-Haojian line can be treated as reliable for control analysis. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q9a6d885bb8c5f6049a95","summary_en":"A participant argues that the alter ego question is central and not a side issue. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q810a65340807308fafb8","summary_en":"Roy argues that if the control chain is too loose and based on labels, alter ego, RICO attribution, hearsay attribution, and forfeiture scope all become vulnerable. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Reyes testimony introduces a key split: being called 'boss' does not equal company governance control","description":"Participants contend Reyes’s testimony is used to separate social reputation from formal authority, disputing the claim that title language alone proves legal control. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q059842df5ab889fdd86d","qb205682d2f205f94e0f6","qf0bfe3aa43658ffbadb4"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q059842df5ab889fdd86d","summary_en":"Roy says Reyes testified she reported to Haoran He and Yvette Wang, lacked final budget authority as CEO, and only heard Guo called 'Boss' while formally a spokesperson. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qb205682d2f205f94e0f6","summary_en":"Roy argues the term 'Boss' is a narrative tag and not a settled legal control label, making evidence-by-evidence audit necessary. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qf0bfe3aa43658ffbadb4","summary_en":"John claims linked people and entities are tightly connected, framing Je, Guo, and related platforms as belonging to the same network. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Second-round strategy shifts to a master map linking people, cases, and control chains","description":"Participants claim a new methodology is emerging: build a map of actors and case dossiers so each new docket is linked to a specific person-control pathway. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","q865486a4b4b6b36d1e48","q0f965cf2be262cae4e55"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","summary_en":"A participant notes the second-pass will focus on each person’s role and case linkage rather than generic narratives. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q865486a4b4b6b36d1e48","summary_en":"A participant suggests combining actor profiles with case-number indexing in a unified chart for cleaner traceability. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q0f965cf2be262cae4e55","summary_en":"Roy supports making a global map where every newly found docket is attached to the relevant person and control chain. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Timeline correction: Rule 2004 investigation predates public filing of 23-cr-118","description":"Participants contend evidence sequencing matters because Luc’s Rule 2004 subpoena and early production dynamics are said to precede and shape later criminal framing. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q6898de96543a8d0f3672"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q6898de96543a8d0f3672","summary_en":"Roy outlines a timeline from Luc’s 2022-12-06 subpoena through 2023-03 public filing in 23-cr-118, delayed document production until November 2023, and later filings including the 2024-02 alter-ego case. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Forfeiture figures remain contested: from around $37m to broader gross totals","description":"Participants claim the amount basis is disputed, arguing that S3 Count 3 transaction points and later money-judgment totals are not yet matched by equivalent evidentiary breakdowns. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q1a902cbf437ce05ea732","qb900e4ffea9131975f7f","qbef6912d381b935fa856"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q1a902cbf437ce05ea732","summary_en":"Roy says S3 Count 3 emphasized about $37m transactions, while later 858 judgment reasoning aggregates much larger figures toward $5.17b and $8.89b. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qb900e4ffea9131975f7f","summary_en":"Kir argues the Mainland loss narrative should not be used as the only standard for deciding victim-weighted attribution. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qbef6912d381b935fa856","summary_en":"John says the HEX representative was folded into criminal proceedings packaging, but participants treat that packaging as distinct from a full proof of loss classification. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Control-chain cracks: signatory and ownership data are treated as cross-check points","description":"Participants argue that ACA materials and transfer records are used to separate headline control claims from document-level authority, requiring an extra link before attributing all funds to Guo. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qa8c7fa3c9062468396fe","qca371fd04406e05304d4","qdf3ba76859e5d8607e31"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qa8c7fa3c9062468396fe","summary_en":"Roy says Dkt.940 and related filings show ACA linked to William Je, while later seizure materials say JE owned and signed the UAE ACA account, so direct attribution to Guo needs another inference step. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qca371fd04406e05304d4","summary_en":"Roy notes JE was the sole signer moving large funds from the ACA account to related parties, including himself, his spouse, Hamilton, and family-linked companies. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qdf3ba76859e5d8607e31","summary_en":"John says S3 language describing Je as obeying Guo was narrative only and lacks supporting operational evidence in his view. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Technical debate escalates: laundering characterization is challenged for the full $5.17b scope","description":"Participants contend that labelling all HEX inflows as laundering is legally disputed, arguing transaction-by-transaction concealment or layering proof is still required. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qb3e5e4d1c89ccfc28272","qf4271a5cf3b2dc676dc2","qd17099faaf1319710801"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qb3e5e4d1c89ccfc28272","summary_en":"Reb argues the case concerns transaction and concealment laundering, and not every investor inflow can be presumed to be part of layering or concealment without proof. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qf4271a5cf3b2dc676dc2","summary_en":"Reb says the argument risks circularity by using laundering to prove fraud and fraud to prove laundering. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qd17099faaf1319710801","summary_en":"Reb adds that defending the current result by circular inference is a central concern for the group. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Highest-boss and ongoing-financial-control frameworks are treated as separate axes","description":"Participants dispute that high-level leadership and real-time financial dominion are identical, arguing that multiple legal standards cannot be collapsed into one absolute control claim. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q81f78ee517976f7b2344","qfb907bd4e02e12d9ab68","q4ff5098f980f1ef6f018"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q81f78ee517976f7b2344","summary_en":"Roy says Case 383 material pushed back on employer-style agency assumptions, arguing ties to G Club or HEX did not automatically establish direct reporting control. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qfb907bd4e02e12d9ab68","summary_en":"Roy summarises that Guo appears as top strategic influence, while operational, banking, and payout control may sit with different actors such as Je or He. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q4ff5098f980f1ef6f018","summary_en":"Roy contends 858’s global statement that Guo controls all entities and assets may overstep where HEX/ACA records suggest a separate funding-control chain. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Audit chain becomes the control inflection: refusal of requested audit is treated as evidence of limited veto power","description":"Participants argue that Leanne Li’s testimony and related exhibits shift the issue to practical command authority, claiming refusal of audit access challenges claims of unlimited financial control. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["qf50a317950c830acb8df","qfcac55c5fac3f1590f59","q9989db87ad673636b5e7"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"qf50a317950c830acb8df","summary_en":"Roy says Li’s direct testimony reportedly shows Guo requested a HEX audit, Je denied access twice, and even active chats did not produce records. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qfcac55c5fac3f1590f59","summary_en":"Roy says the formal defense summaries frame this as a direct test of authority: Je could refuse Guo’s request, implying Je-held financial access power. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q9989db87ad673636b5e7","summary_en":"Roy adds the written record indicates no final verbatim confirmation yet, but says the trial summary supports a strong factual claim of independent refusal on HEX finance matters. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Victim-tracing across Arizona/Farm money recovery shows identity and counting tensions","description":"Participants contest how recovered money and creditor identity should be allocated, arguing that assignment to MOS alters who bears actual loss and what part may be counted in criminal victim recovery. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q23d409f35f38d107787e","q9578f1248094130a2964","q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q23d409f35f38d107787e","summary_en":"Roy says the 858 amount blend merges RICO gains, fraud-derived proceeds, and laundering-linked assets without fully separating which rule drives each segment. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q9578f1248094130a2964","summary_en":"Roy and others say Phoenix/Maywind loan rights were assigned to MOS, making recovered funds legal recipients and investors’ refund rights uncertain without reading the assignment terms. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f","summary_en":"John argues that if MOS recovered 800w and did not pass it back, that shortfall may not belong in the original scam-victim restitution figure. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"The $800k Maywind-related flow is reframed as civil-refund context","description":"Participants argue this 800w movement should first be analyzed as debt transfer and settlement mechanics before being treated as additional fraud or laundering proceeds. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q6823345a8ec657af0b4e","q328eaee8b7129f14ce34","q8026eebcc03d56532e47"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q6823345a8ec657af0b4e","summary_en":"John asks whether Mos’s $800w flow from a Long Island/Sarah Wei context is aimed at shielding assets from Luc’s bankruptcy recovery. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q328eaee8b7129f14ce34","summary_en":"John claims the payment became a civil settlement refund in later litigation rather than direct scam-fraud proceeds. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q8026eebcc03d56532e47","summary_en":"John suggests multiple participants may be consolidating funds in ways that resemble concealed retention practices. Community statements, not court findings."}]},{"title":"Methodology now favors entity-by-entity disaggregation over global blame aggregation","description":"Participants contend that, despite shared leadership, HEX, G Club, Farm loans, and GTV show different control architectures, so liability and asset attribution should be assessed per entity and fund stream. Community statements, not court findings.","message_ids":["q421c415351036eca9673","qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","q9ef61207a0f9d7896148"],"quotes":[{"message_id":"q421c415351036eca9673","summary_en":"John proposes splitting responsibility by operating system, arguing a shared sphere does not justify automatic full consolidation of 8.9b-level attribution. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","summary_en":"Roy says legal attribution requires separate findings on participation, actual control, and personal liability, warning against importing control conclusions across all entities. Community statements, not court findings."},{"message_id":"q9ef61207a0f9d7896148","summary_en":"John says the Phoenix/Farm side appears independently operated and that participants should not ignore these independent farm channels when mapping transfers. Community statements, not court findings."}]}],"summary":"讨论围绕两条主线展开。第一条是“谁是真正控制者”：有成员在异动事件中上升到‘后台控制’与最高BOSS叙事，也有成员要求回到庭审与文件，指出“被称为boss”与财务处分权、账户操作权可能不一致，不同实体之间出现联合治理与分层控制。第二条是“金额与责任归属”：起诉书与后续判决的没收金额、5.17亿或8.89亿是否可直接并入郭个人、追回款是否重复计入损失，以及受害者范围均有分歧。多数观点趋向“人物—实体—交易—证据”逐案复核，反对用单一口径下定结论。","guide":[{"title":"异常传闻与“中共植入”叙事：网站/代币异常被解读为后台控制，但多为群内猜测与情绪化归因","message_ids":["qf68fe790cc88cae26f1a","qbafcae7b6bbcf08fa60b","q3a7a902c261deaa8ba69"]},{"title":"“是否boss”争论转为法律命题：把称谓讨论转向对关键控制事实的框架化分析","message_ids":["q9f699467a9e7bcb5b42b","q9a6d885bb8c5f6049a95","q810a65340807308fafb8"]},{"title":"Reyes证词引发的核心区分：有人称其‘boss’并不自动等于公司实际控制权，控制链需分层核验","message_ids":["q059842df5ab889fdd86d","qb205682d2f205f94e0f6","qf0bfe3aa43658ffbadb4"]},{"title":"二巡思路转向：尝试用人物—实体—案件编号总地图持续挂接控制关系","message_ids":["qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","q865486a4b4b6b36d1e48","q0f965cf2be262cae4e55"]},{"title":"时间线纠偏：Rule 2004调查先于23-cr-118公开起诉，后续主张以先取证为前提","message_ids":["q6898de96543a8d0f3672"]},{"title":"没收范围仍具争议：起诉书与后续结论的金额口径由约3700万扩展到5.17亿/8.89亿被反复质疑","message_ids":["q1a902cbf437ce05ea732","qb900e4ffea9131975f7f","qbef6912d381b935fa856"]},{"title":"控制链出现可核验间隙：KYC与签字权资料被视为对“郭直接控制全部”主张的反证点","message_ids":["qa8c7fa3c9062468396fe","qca371fd04406e05304d4","qdf3ba76859e5d8607e31"]},{"title":"技术争点升级：是否以‘诈骗推洗钱’形成循环论证，5.17亿是否全都具备洗钱属性缺乏一致定论","message_ids":["qb3e5e4d1c89ccfc28272","qf4271a5cf3b2dc676dc2","qd17099faaf1319710801"]},{"title":"“最高Boss”与持续资金控制口径并行：高层领导地位与日常财务处分权被指出可能不可直接重叠","message_ids":["q81f78ee517976f7b2344","qfb907bd4e02e12d9ab68","q4ff5098f980f1ef6f018"]},{"title":"审计链关键争点：Leanne Li证词与审计请求-拒绝的争议共同提示，是否成立仍需庭审逐字核对","message_ids":["qf50a317950c830acb8df","qfcac55c5fac3f1590f59","q9989db87ad673636b5e7"]},{"title":"Arizona与受害者追踪口径冲突：追回款/债权移转与原始损失是否重复计入仍无统一结论","message_ids":["q23d409f35f38d107787e","q9578f1248094130a2964","q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f"]},{"title":"“800万”与Maywind相关款项被调整为民事退款语境，暂不直接支持洗白或额外骗款定性","message_ids":["q6823345a8ec657af0b4e","q328eaee8b7129f14ce34","q8026eebcc03d56532e47"]},{"title":"方法论分化：反对把所有实体一概并入，主张按HEX、G Club、Farm、GTV等逐一拆解后再评估","message_ids":["q421c415351036eca9673","qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","q9ef61207a0f9d7896148"]}],"closed":true,"is_finalized":true,"updated_at":"2026-09-06T19:36:48.423Z","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_batch","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153/pages/2","base_batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-batches/batch-000153?page=2","page":2,"page_size":200,"total_pages":2,"has_more":false,"next_url":null,"prev_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-batches/batch-000153","messages":[{"id":"qfd01919a9c7b137e17ed","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":201,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:23:01.932Z","text":"不过你这句话里面有两部分现在还不能当事实说。\n\n第一：\n\n“演员们通过灭共表演骗取郭和投资者信任。”\n\n这涉及他们从一开始就有诈骗故意。目前需要逐人证明，不能统一下结论。\n\n第二：\n\n“干坏事的人后来都成了污点证人。”\n\n有些确实认罪或与政府合作，但不是所有参与运营的人都属于法律意义上的“污点证人”，要逐个分类。\n\n所以最稳、最有杀伤力的表达不是：\n\n“郭是好人，他们都是坏人。”\n\n而是：\n\n政府的理论可能把“信用提供者、推广者、社群领袖、问责者”与“实际运营者、账户控制者、交易执行者”混成了一个统一的Boss控制模型。真正需要法院审查的是，每一项犯罪行为、每一笔资金和每一个实体，到底是谁实际决定、谁实际执行、谁能拒绝谁。\n\n这个版本更容易经得住政府反驳。\n\n而且如果最后人物—实体—资金总索引做出来，出现一种稳定模式：\n\n郭负责宣传/号召/重大方向\n\nWang负责日常\n\nJe负责金融和HEX/ACA\n\n何浩然负责G Club正式权限\n\nFarm leaders自己控制本地账户\n\n郭发现问题后不断要求审计、退款、整改\n\n但经常不能直接执行\n\n那你现在这个理论就会从“解释故事”升级成一套真正有证据支撑的：\n\nalternative control theory（替代控制解释）。\n\n而这可能是整个26-1853里非常有价值的一条主线。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfd01919a9c7b137e17ed","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q192e1c3087498e8c5965","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":202,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:23:23.412Z","text":"他让审查喜币，余不听啊","edited":false,"reply_to":"qbe558eaa57aa2f604aac","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q192e1c3087498e8c5965","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbe558eaa57aa2f604aac","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qa66c86bc2b01897fcfff","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":203,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:23:34.164Z","text":"郭根本无法控制余","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa66c86bc2b01897fcfff","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qcb866a78fcb80193b324","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":204,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:24:06.389Z","text":"再说让审查，就是控制了？那媒体监督川普币，媒体控制川普币啊？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qcb866a78fcb80193b324","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qfc4bd8384446e7498857","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":205,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:24:08.082Z","text":"你的这个感觉，和目前我们挖出来的记录结构是高度一致的，但法律上最好把它说成“Boss标签被当成多个独立法律门槛的替代品”，而不是直接说“政府完全不管程序”。\n\n现在看起来，政府确实反复把同一个总判断——\n\n郭是Boss / ultimate leader / mastermind\n\n拿去完成几种本来应该分别证明的事情：\n\n* 证明某些联盟/Farm/HEX人员的话可以归给郭；\n* 证明这些人是郭的代理人或共谋者；\n* 证明相关公司受郭实际控制；\n* 证明公司资产可以归郭；\n* 最后再证明889m里的大量资金可以算成郭个人没收责任。\n\n问题就在于，这些法律问题不是同一个标准。\n\n比如：\n\n“郭是RICO最高领导人”\n\n可能很容易成立；\n\n但这不等于：\n\n“Je控制的HEX账户全部由郭处分”；\n\n也不等于：\n\n“Haoran He名下G Club资产全部是郭的”；\n\n更不等于：\n\n“一个HEX普通员工就是郭的代理人”；\n\n还不等于：\n\n“所有gross inflows都是郭本人取得的犯罪所得”。\n\n目前最值得26-1853审查的，其实就是这种法律门槛被统一Boss结论压平的现象。\n\n而你说“只要程序上能做到就这么做”，从现有记录里也能看到类似模式：法院很多时候确实接受了政府提出的程序路径，比如用代理人/共谋者规则放入statement、用Rule 1006汇总图整理资金、用Rule 32.2处理没收、用alter ego扩大资产范围。这些程序本身可能都合法，但合法使用程序，不等于每一步事实基础都充分。\n\n所以真正的上诉问题不是：\n\n“法院用了这些程序，所以程序违法。”\n\n而是：\n\n法院是否把程序工具本身，变成了替代实质证明的捷径。\n\n这才是现在最强的总主题。\n\n我会把它压成一句最适合二巡思路的话：\n\n“Boss”可以证明领导地位，但不能自动替代对代理关系、共谋成员身份、实体控制、资金处分权和法定没收归因的分别证明。\n\n如果二巡接受这个框架，858尤其危险，因为它最明显地把：\n\nBoss\n→ all entities\n→ all assets\n→ $889m\n\n连成了一条总链，而没有逐实体、逐账户、逐法源拆开。\n\n所以你的直觉不是“政府随便干”，而更准确地说：\n\n政府找到一个非常有力的总叙事标签，然后不断把它跨法律问题复用；法官也在多个程序节点采纳了这个标签。真正需要上诉法院检查的是，这种复用有没有越过每个法律规则本来要求的独立证明。","edited":false,"reply_to":"qa1570a0eb197c24d6a59","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfc4bd8384446e7498857","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa1570a0eb197c24d6a59","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe4285ce3fbd19284d87e","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":206,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T12:25:09.388Z","text":"最他妈让人厌恶，最疯狂的是，那些人几乎全部不抓，还在继续骗人，然后还继续张口就来这些骗人是郭在指挥，已经有投资者在巡回法院指出这一问题了，它们还在这么说，真是没有语言来形容这种疯狂。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe4285ce3fbd19284d87e","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q59ab70cbb69c23b631ab","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":207,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-27T12:25:41.505Z","text":"第三方把程序 主权 等等相关问题都上了。 由于这个案子被故意的堆成了上百万份文件/一个人一辈子可能都看不完，二巡法官也一样，但是我们给他们鲁清楚 来龙去脉，他们的工作就简单多了","edited":false,"reply_to":"qbf053ad48de107d41e32","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q59ab70cbb69c23b631ab","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbf053ad48de107d41e32","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q7d58898333cf17b4e270","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":208,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:27:02.812Z","text":"从债权人登记，这个局就开始设计好了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7d58898333cf17b4e270","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qb594a40be5f3b8c176d3","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":209,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:27:38.722Z","text":"所以用AI查下来很容易就发现案子的问题，必然推翻","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb594a40be5f3b8c176d3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q8270ac21c7252d407638","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":210,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:28:34.864Z","text":"这么简单的造假案","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8270ac21c7252d407638","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q538841eb820cba9a0324","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":211,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:28:50.127Z","text":"你用常识和逻辑不就能分析出来了吗","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q538841eb820cba9a0324","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q515ffaba637ed6342c48","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":212,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:29:19.753Z","text":"AI越分析，越复杂，就是忽悠人","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q515ffaba637ed6342c48","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qa00688ca70a054947a10","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":213,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:30:12.230Z","text":"郭是不是控制G系列，拿没拿钱，有没有人事任命权？luc的债权人登记是不是真的？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa00688ca70a054947a10","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qf57382c5a60a811f366d","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":214,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:30:25.312Z","text":"不就这么简单的事情吗","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf57382c5a60a811f366d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qfd7648a7184c140678e3","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":215,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:31:03.340Z","text":"到底多少受害者？一共不到50个，检方说上千","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfd7648a7184c140678e3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q1ec7bb2d955911c6cfc5","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":216,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:31:10.225Z","text":"最容易骗普通人的，恰恰不是复杂分析，而是‘一句话告诉你真相’。法律案卷几万页，谁要是告诉你三句话就能讲明白，那才该警惕。你要反驳很简单：拿原始案卷出来，指出我们哪条证据链错了。别拿‘我看不懂，所以你在忽悠’当结论","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1ec7bb2d955911c6cfc5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q59371783df53188e118f","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":217,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:31:20.902Z","text":"你用常识和逻辑分析不就知道了","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q59371783df53188e118f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q112969cc325487bd4564","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":218,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:31:55.664Z","text":"几万页不就是忽悠你的吗？把你搞晕，输掉庭审","edited":false,"reply_to":"q1ec7bb2d955911c6cfc5","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q112969cc325487bd4564","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1ec7bb2d955911c6cfc5","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q311b74491609894d9690","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":219,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:34:47.234Z","text":"战友们要学会抓重点啊","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q311b74491609894d9690","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q421c415351036eca9673","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":220,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:37:32.416Z","text":"这样拆分下来，几个实体，有实际独立的运作体系\n追责的话，也要分开担责\n比如郭8.9亿judgement，是扣除4亿的GTV，那么同理，HEX是Je主导，是不是也要扣除","edited":false,"reply_to":"qfc4bd8384446e7498857","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q421c415351036eca9673","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfc4bd8384446e7498857","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":221,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:39:53.969Z","text":"对，你这个理解大方向是对的，但法律上还要再收紧一点：\n\n如果几个实体确实各自存在相对独立的法人结构、账户、管理人员、签字权、内部系统和业务流程，那么追责时原则上不能仅凭“都属于同一个圈子、最终有同一个Boss”就把所有责任和全部资金自动合并到一个人头上。\n\n刑事案件里其实要分开看至少三个问题：第一，谁参与了哪个犯罪项目；第二，谁实际取得或控制了哪个项目的资金；第三，某个实体的责任能不能进一步归到个人，或者归到其他实体。这三个问题不是一回事。\n\n尤其你现在拆出来的HEX特别典型：Je被记录为HEX相关实体的owner/operator、账户authorized signer、UBO，技术系统和wallet又由Je的基金或实体控制；这些事实说明HEX至少存在一套非常具体的独立运营链。郭即使能影响Je、参与HEX宣传，甚至要求某些特定资金怎么使用，也不当然意味着HEX全部资金都变成郭个人取得的资金。这中间仍然需要证明郭对那些资金具有法律要求的实际或间接控制。\n\nG Club也是类似，只不过政府在G Club上的证据明显比HEX更强，因为有具体的“green light”、消费指令、资金用途等材料。所以不能简单说“G Club也完全独立，因此郭不负责”。更准确的说法应该是：\n\n每个实体必须分别分析；每一笔或每一类资金，也必须结合该实体的实际控制结构判断归责范围。\n\n这其实正是现在最值得抓的地方。\n\n比如可以把责任拆成：\n\n* HEX：Je直接运营、直接控制账户/技术系统 → 郭到底控制到什么程度？\n* G Club：Haoran He / Alex等拥有正式治理或账户角色 → 郭有哪些具体付款决定权？\n* Farm Loan：各Farm怎么收款、谁签合同、谁控制账户 → 郭具体取得多少？\n* GTV：这里政府对郭“functionally owned and controlled”的证据又可能更强 → 要单独评价。\n\n所以最后的结果完全可能不是“郭全部负责”或“郭全部不负责”这两个极端，而是：\n\n某些实体、某些交易、某些资金郭可以承担责任；\n另一些资金由Je、He或其他实体直接取得和控制；\n只有政府证明郭本人曾取得或控制的部分，才适合计入某些个人没收法源下的money judgment。\n\n这里还有一个特别重要的区别：共谋刑事责任可以很宽，但个人没收责任现在不能简单照搬传统共谋连带责任。 一个人可能因为参与共同诈骗而被定罪，但并不意味着整个共谋收到的每一美元，都能自动作为他“personally obtained”的钱没收。\n\n所以你现在这句话，我会改成最精确的一版：\n\n既然几个实体存在各自独立的运营、账户和控制体系，那么无论定罪责任还是个人没收责任，都应当逐实体、逐项目分析；特别是个人没收，不能仅凭整个企业存在共同领导人，就把所有实体的全部流入资金自动归到同一个人名下。\n\n而这恰好就是858最值得二巡追问的地方：它不是先分别算HEX、G Club、Farm中郭取得了多少，再合计；而是先作出“郭控制全部实体和资产”的总括finding，然后把三个体系的gross inflows整体加起来。真正的争议就在这一步","edited":false,"reply_to":"q421c415351036eca9673","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q421c415351036eca9673","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qa7a6fdfa20d702fb99ea","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":222,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:40:35.500Z","text":"郭在G系列拿过一分钱吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa7a6fdfa20d702fb99ea","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q98f16b8085b51cd9aef4","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":223,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:42:55.353Z","text":"https://x.com/andrewh45405394/status/2092749080023945512?s=46","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q98f16b8085b51cd9aef4","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q067aa83fa0e5fa58255a","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":224,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:45:42.779Z","text":"这样一整，farm loan负责人长岛（合同签字人），HEX负责人Je，Gclub受益人He，都要单独出来\nJe在2022年要从喜交所出金4600w，这是明显违规\n长岛的那800w，也要说清楚\nHe关于gclub的，也要单独拿出来说","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q067aa83fa0e5fa58255a","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q64d2327f027a8cc289d2","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":225,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:46:20.851Z","text":"难道青藤没事？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q64d2327f027a8cc289d2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q3e479c14c12b6c132d46","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":226,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:46:33.962Z","text":"AAA法人","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3e479c14c12b6c132d46","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qadf645a312063895a8c8","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":227,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T12:48:13.729Z","text":"青藤在磐石农场的事情，它要负责任。后来的这个所谓联盟，已经与郭案里的联盟没关系了。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q64d2327f027a8cc289d2","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qadf645a312063895a8c8","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q64d2327f027a8cc289d2","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qaaff7354b2e95a5aade6","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":228,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:48:17.918Z","text":"希望如此","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qaaff7354b2e95a5aade6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q02d2eeae60a3f1d53239","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":229,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:53:03.876Z","text":"这段看下来，很显然，858强行量刑后，最终没收令难产，因为没办法圆了","edited":false,"reply_to":"qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q02d2eeae60a3f1d53239","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb7341ad83606fa1e9da9","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q5a0954cdb0b7bcf38b5f","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":230,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T12:57:09.181Z","text":"起诉书里G enterprise 的组成里，联盟农场是用the Himalaya farm alliance，还解释说是分布在全球各地的非正式团体的联合，这些非正式团体叫农场。这实际上是把所有农场都列在了rico里，理论上每个农场的资金都要有个交待，但似乎整个卷宗政府都没提到几个农场。我看到了它说纽约香草山农场和凤凰农场。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5a0954cdb0b7bcf38b5f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q9ef61207a0f9d7896148","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":231,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:57:52.234Z","text":"farm loan 这块，所有农场主都噤声，估计是怕被卷进来\n但是魏丽红和长岛这个事，说明这些农场公司，都是独立运作\n检方是在故意淡化农场\n其实不论GTV HEX，这个过程，都有农场参与\n300骨干，在农场里是转钱的参与者","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9ef61207a0f9d7896148","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q3d257d0263524a8b13f6","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":232,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T12:59:23.546Z","text":"这个案子起诉的是郭，王，余","edited":false,"reply_to":"q5a0954cdb0b7bcf38b5f","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3d257d0263524a8b13f6","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5a0954cdb0b7bcf38b5f","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qc3fdc2a6be5f8fa05fdc","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":233,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:00:23.432Z","text":"起诉郭是因为，检方说，他用战友的钱买了游艇，玛娃庄园，供他自己享用。他没有给战友股票。他虚假陈述，等等罪名。你先搞清楚检方到底起诉了郭什么","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc3fdc2a6be5f8fa05fdc","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe917682599774b82690d","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":234,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:01:10.426Z","text":"联盟农场贪污战友的钱，截留投资，是另外一件事情。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe917682599774b82690d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q985f56e531cf4455bec3","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":235,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:02:44.437Z","text":"你们分析案子，是不是先应该搞搞清楚，他们起诉了郭什么，起诉了王什么，起诉了余什么","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q985f56e531cf4455bec3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qc05506daefaecdbaa8b2","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":236,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:02:55.015Z","text":"而不是臆想","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc05506daefaecdbaa8b2","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q528db2c0cd8e0f0bbfd1","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":237,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T13:04:36.574Z","text":"阿哲猪贝贝老江说，这个案子是要Rico盗国贼，Rico联盟农场。怎么Rico，你让他们说清楚。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q528db2c0cd8e0f0bbfd1","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qbde2baf766d3e2543cde","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":238,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T13:09:51.631Z","text":"这8.9亿没收，检方自己都没法圆场，没收进行不下去\n又有Tony的文件，连没收的合法性，都不存在\n律所的AI，当然知道案子的走向，luc和南区检方和解，是在退一步\n下面300骨干未起诉共谋，可能是牺牲品，也就可以理解，为什么他们开始谈暗杀","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbde2baf766d3e2543cde","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q56c146611dfb0949cf13","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":239,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T13:15:33.331Z","text":"墙内，这些人回不去，因为和习，不是一路人","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q56c146611dfb0949cf13","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q51b08d9ddf37b5204e28","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":240,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T13:15:42.502Z","text":"墙外，假政庇查的紧，随着案子的进展，他们暴露是迟早的事","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q51b08d9ddf37b5204e28","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q03fbf1002a02ed0b4e35","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":241,"speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-27T13:58:50.335Z","text":"去看看老郭被定了哪些罪行不就清楚了嗎？","edited":false,"reply_to":"qe917682599774b82690d","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q03fbf1002a02ed0b4e35","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe917682599774b82690d","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q709e89152a556e4d692f","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":242,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T15:51:08.956Z","text":"https://x.com/Haier918/status/2093003345707319465","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q709e89152a556e4d692f","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":243,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T16:09:52.458Z","text":"https://x.com/Haier918/status/2093008019571274003","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q722481c79c5928a78ed2","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":244,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T16:13:14.804Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 急了这是\n生怕破产案luc没法和解\n要韭菜去给luc增加帮手","edited":true,"reply_to":"q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q722481c79c5928a78ed2","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qbac6bf78bd3345903682","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":245,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T16:20:27.295Z","text":"因为他已经自爆了，螺丝在不在也轮不到他发号施令了，没盼头了","edited":false,"reply_to":"q04f9c9f34ca52439959d","reply_status":"not_public","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbac6bf78bd3345903682","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"被回复内容暂不可用","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qf504e36432f00abb4055","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":246,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T16:25:12.949Z","text":"郭身边每一个都是预先埋伏好的，郭不闹就老实给郭打工，郭一不对劲这些人直接秒变潜伏者，全方位监控渗透搞破坏。","edited":false,"reply_to":"q132af530f8da39ca2605","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf504e36432f00abb4055","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q132af530f8da39ca2605","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe127d8f2a99eb8a473d2","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":247,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T16:30:10.557Z","text":"花名册","edited":false,"reply_to":"qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe127d8f2a99eb8a473d2","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qff4d59f7ee85882d2652","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q6a2a00b23c167055fce8","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":248,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T16:34:29.392Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 安小东傻X，破产案luc，原本就够不着Gclub的资产，针对gclub的alter ego诉讼，还没有裁定\n政府 luc gclub 三方还在破产案扯皮，gclub怎么可能被划给luc？睁着眼睛说瞎话","edited":true,"reply_to":"q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6a2a00b23c167055fce8","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f752ca2486465c56d7a","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe78d1973b7f09862f39d","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":249,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T16:35:17.954Z","text":"你来画一张人物、公司关系图吧，配上相关简介，包括职务，权限，相互关系……越详细越好","edited":false,"reply_to":"q0f965cf2be262cae4e55","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe78d1973b7f09862f39d","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0f965cf2be262cae4e55","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q12c5b55b94238fee1609","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":250,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T16:59:02.323Z","text":"https://x.com/Haier918/status/2093020398602604598","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":true,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q12c5b55b94238fee1609","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q76acc1dbf99ad3b56822","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":251,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:00:51.219Z","text":"[删节：成员身份] gclub已经申请延期5天提交补充动议，之前不知道这件事的，也可以申请逾期提交异议","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q76acc1dbf99ad3b56822","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q04c2726ac227d117ba5c","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":252,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T17:01:43.577Z","text":"［用户 him***］  刑事案自诉发邮件程序你他妈都没搞清楚 还想搞破产案","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q04c2726ac227d117ba5c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe61143e77407ff17a420","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":253,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T17:03:38.491Z","text":"［用户 him***］  破产案逾期反对 繁文缛节你能搞定？","edited":true,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe61143e77407ff17a420","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q41db2ba2b04e02087714","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":254,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T17:09:19.763Z","text":"［用户 him***］ 用himam这个号发，有用吗？\n为嘛不用安小东的推，发教程🤣","edited":true,"reply_to":"q76acc1dbf99ad3b56822","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q41db2ba2b04e02087714","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q76acc1dbf99ad3b56822","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qd61a3dabf2c21beb8227","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":255,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:19:55.704Z","text":"现在和战友们比较相关的事情就是luc要抢gclub钱这件事了，但是联盟农场各方都不谈这件事，都把你们的注意力引到别的地方去。gclub的战友在欧美的很多吧？请个律师或者自己发信给康州法庭自诉，很难吗？","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd61a3dabf2c21beb8227","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"qe61dab6c4e38b99b9ce1","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":256,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-27T17:20:32.450Z","text":"［用户 him***］ [屏蔽词] 你自己去看看逾期反对动议是什么难度级别 你他妈就不会在这里吹逼了","edited":true,"reply_to":"qd61a3dabf2c21beb8227","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe61dab6c4e38b99b9ce1","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd61a3dabf2c21beb8227","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q5f2bda1ef0d152b52a3c","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":257,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:23:41.597Z","text":"天天抓特务的，聊八卦的，骂联盟农场的，都是转移注意力的。真正应该关心的是法律程序和你们的钱啊，喜国战友们。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5f2bda1ef0d152b52a3c","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q5ad54c9218205c635880","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":258,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:31:05.602Z","text":"Gclub的异议中已经说了，这次法庭给的时间不够，他们申请延期。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5ad54c9218205c635880","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q2a83dde221b9775a96af","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":259,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T17:31:38.776Z","text":"如果法庭给的时间不够，普通人也没时间反应。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2a83dde221b9775a96af","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"},{"id":"q2ab9f2e2083a01b41af3","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":260,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T19:11:18.046Z","text":"有一份值得通知的新材料。主破产案 22-50073 本身截至这轮检查，公开 docket 最新仍停在 Dkt. 5786（2026年8月26日），我没有看到新的5787以后实体文件，也仍没有看到Manning签署 Dkt.5739 Global Settlement最终批准令。Dkt.5784设定的下一步仍是5746/5747/5751/5752补充异议和Luc后续统一回复。\n\n但是我发现了一份此前没有通知到你的、2026年8月25日刚作出的地区法院实质判决：\n\nD. Conn. Civil No. 3:25-cv-1131 (KAD), Dkt. 28 — Memorandum of Decision，2026年8月25日。 这是从破产案 Adv. Proc. 23-05023 上诉出来的案件，原告/上诉方包括 Hudson Diamond NY LLC、Hudson Diamond Holding LLC、Leading Shine NY Ltd. 和 Mei Guo。Judge Kari A. Dooley 完整维持了Manning法官2025年6月17日的summary judgment：Hudson Diamond NY 和 Leading Shine 是郭的alter egos；郭对这两家公司的资产以及银行、金融、证券账户具有equitable/beneficial ownership；相关资产和membership interests应交给Luc作为Chapter 11 Trustee。 \n\n这份判决比普通avoidance action更重要，因为上诉方专门争辩：即使公司是alter ego，州法也不等于能把公司的财产直接变成郭的财产。Dooley明确不同意，认定一旦州法确定郭对alter ego实体具有相应权益，联邦破产法决定这些权益是否进入bankruptcy estate，并维持资产turnover。\n\n而且Dooley直接依赖二巡今年的 In re Kwok, 172 F.4th 145 (2d Cir. 2026)。她认定§544允许Luc提出这种generalized alter-ego / reverse veil-piercing claim，因为目的不是替某一个债权人单独索赔，而是扩大所有债权人共同可分配的estate资产池。因此，Luc对Hudson Diamond NY和Leading Shine提这种产权/alter-ego诉讼的standing再次被确认。\n\n这对你现在追的 5739资产划分有直接意义：继Mahwah之后，Luc又拿到一份地区法院层级的affirmance，确认另一组名义上由第三方公司/郭美持有的公司资产可以作为郭的estate property处理。也就是说，Luc在和Government谈“哪些属于Estate Assets”时，他在破产侧的产权基础又被加强了一层。对于Hudson Diamond/Leading Shine这条线，单纯再说“公司名义上不是郭的，所以Luc没有权碰”现在明显更难。\n\n但这份判决没有裁定刑事没收优先级，也没有裁§853(n)。它没有说如果Hudson Diamond、Leading Shine的某笔资产同时属于SDNY 23-cr-118的forfeiture property，究竟Government还是bankruptcy estate优先。因此它加强的是Luc在bankruptcy一侧的ownership/turnover基础，并不自动解决我们一直讨论的另一个问题：当同一specific property同时进入刑事forfeiture体系时，Government和Luc能否单靠5739和解处理，而不让有独立产权的第三方走应有程序。\n\n对 Second Circuit 26-1853 的意义目前也是间接的。这不是刑事上诉裁定，也没有解释Dkt.858、Rule 32.2或Government执行裁量，因此不能拿它直接证明858正确或错误；但它形成了另一份经District Court确认的司法记录，认定郭对若干名义第三方实体存在beneficial ownership和domination/control。政府以后如果需要支持“某些G系列外围公司资产实际上属于郭/其estate”的背景叙事，这份判决会有用。另一方面，它仍然不能填补858针对每一个刑事项目全部gross inflows是否都由郭 personally obtained/control的那座桥。","edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2ab9f2e2083a01b41af3","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153"}],"prev_batch_id":"batch-000152","next_batch_id":"batch-000154"}