{"id":"q01aee57f5e613a922809","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":11,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:49:23.166Z","text":"它必须证明郭本人直接或间接取得、控制、处分了相应proceeds，而不是只证明Je、Wang、Hamilton、Farm、HEX实体收到了钱。\n\n⸻\n\n但是Count 3 money laundering又不一样\n\n这也是为什么王488/郭720不分项特别麻烦。\n\nCount 3是 18 U.S.C. §1956(h)，没收依据主要是 18 U.S.C. §982(a)(1)，它写的是：\n\nproperty “involved in” money laundering，\n\n而不是“proceeds personally obtained”。\n\n二巡Tanner也明确指出，对money laundering，§982(a)(1)的范围可以比单纯proceeds forfeiture更宽；一个实际参与并转移过laundered funds的人，即使后来钱不在手上，也可能被要求没收相应数额。\n\n所以这里现在形成了一个非常重要的二分：\n\nA. Counts 1/2/4/7–11 proceeds\n\n→ 必须问郭本人到底取得了多少。\n\nB. Count 3 laundering property\n\n→ 要问哪些具体property involved in laundering，以及郭/王各自实际参与、控制和处理到什么程度。\n\n这两个法律标准并不一样。\n\n而720却把两块直接合成：\n\n总数$1.3B\n\n后来858又变成：\n\n$889M\n\n但没有公开告诉我们：\n\nproceeds component = ?\nlaundering component = ?\n\n这就不只是“账看着不好看”了。\n\n⸻\n\n这会产生一个真正的Rule 32.2问题\n\n我现在不会说“没分项就一定违法”，因为Rule 32.2要求法院确定money judgment amount，但没有一句明确规定每一种法定理论必须做成单独表格。\n\n可是这里有一个非常现实的问题：\n\n如果两部分适用不同的法律标准：\n\npersonally obtained\n\nvs.\n\nproperty involved in laundering\n\n而且只有第二部分涉及Wang/Guo的joint-and-several overlap，\n\n那法院如果只给一个aggregate总数，二巡怎么审查：\n\n这个889m到底有多少是合法的personally obtained proceeds？\n\n又有多少是laundering property？\n\n如果其中一类理论发生错误：\n\n还能不能知道错误影响了多少钱？\n\n这直接碰到 appellate review + harmless error。\n\n如果法院没有allocation，政府以后说：\n\n“就算proceeds部分有问题，laundering部分也能撑住889m”，\n\n二巡反过来就可以问：\n\n记录里哪里告诉我们laundering部分究竟是多少？\n\n如果答案是“没有”，harmless分析反而会更困难。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q01aee57f5e613a922809","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q01aee57f5e613a922809","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q01aee57f5e613a922809/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q01aee57f5e613a922809","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:46:17.990Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa06ca3ff3be113d82820"},{"id":"qecf9db2881a0ac29af62","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:46:40.904Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qecf9db2881a0ac29af62"},{"id":"qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:48:59.353Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710"},{"id":"qc635b055cd82019d118c","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:50:34.312Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc635b055cd82019d118c"},{"id":"qd9a817f9d0e908d6d16a","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:50:47.975Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd9a817f9d0e908d6d16a"},{"id":"q7d79720c1f3a8dd1668d","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:52:11.161Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7d79720c1f3a8dd1668d"}],"parent_message":null}