{"id":"q1f91c8ad53c28de4450d","batch_id":"batch-000145","seq":17,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-12T02:43:00.083Z","text":"5. 真正可能对 Guo 特别有利的是这种情况\n假设大量 § 853(n) petition 最终经过证据审理，法院不是简单说：\n“这些人有优先财产权。”\n而是反复作出这样的事实认定：\n“政府所称由 Guo 获得或拥有的资产，事实上由独立投资人直接拥有；”\n或者：\n“Guo 从未取得政府用来计算 forfeiture amount 的相应财产权益；”\n甚至：\n“政府用于计算 $889 million proceeds 的某一类资金实际上并不符合相关 forfeiture statute 所要求的 defendant-obtained proceeds。”\n这种结果才有可能真正碰到原 forfeiture determination 的核心前提。\n但即使如此，也还不能简单说“§ 853(n) 胜诉 → Guo 的刑期无效”。§ 853(n) ancillary proceeding原则上是为了解决第三方财产权，而且第三方通常不能借这个程序重新诉讼第一阶段已经确定的 property-offense nexus。政府在 Watts 相关诉讼中概括的 Second Circuit 法理也明确区分这两个阶段。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1f91c8ad53c28de4450d","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000145","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000145","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1f91c8ad53c28de4450d","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1f91c8ad53c28de4450d/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q1f91c8ad53c28de4450d","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qc8ad9578b2a4d0944f07","speaker":"Sap***","date":"2026-08-12T02:01:46.181Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc8ad9578b2a4d0944f07"},{"id":"q385aea475b36bb9d05a7","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-12T02:40:03.985Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q385aea475b36bb9d05a7"},{"id":"q0d8e09e3ce05384df5bd","speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-12T02:42:42.318Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0d8e09e3ce05384df5bd"},{"id":"qfe62adc42251430b6678","speaker":"wan***","date":"2026-08-12T02:47:17.637Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfe62adc42251430b6678"},{"id":"q8d97c9d5b8f279511bbb","speaker":"wan***","date":"2026-08-12T02:48:12.168Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8d97c9d5b8f279511bbb"},{"id":"q07d3460f762e23d2934b","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-12T02:48:39.071Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q07d3460f762e23d2934b"}],"parent_message":null}