{"id":"q218bc646996c7576593b","batch_id":"batch-000146","seq":583,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-18T03:40:48.900Z","text":"对，你这个理解基本对。这段话是在解释为什么即便把某部分 GTV inflows 从某个更窄的没收计算里排除，Torres 仍认为 GTV 资金与“定罪的 racketeering conspiracy”存在足够联系，因此不能简单理解成“GTV那部分已经彻底排除、以后不能再碰”。\n\n这段最关键的是两句：\n\n“this exclusion is conservative because GTV inflows are part of the racketeering conspiracy crime of conviction.”\n\n和：\n\n“inflows to GTV are connected to the racketeering enterprise as a whole and to other fraudulent schemes.”\n\n它的逻辑是：GTV不是一个孤立、已经被切掉的项目。 即使某个具体GTV证券欺诈或某种计算方式存在问题，只要法院认为GTV资金仍然属于郭被定罪的RICO/racketeering conspiracy整体企业活动的一部分，而且与其他已认定的欺诈项目存在交叉连接，那么法院就会认为这些资金仍可能进入没收分析。\n\n你贴的 Le Zhou 证词就是Torres拿来做这个“连接”的例子：据法院的表述，Le Zhou说加入 G|CLUB 之前要先购买 GTV stock。于是Torres据此推导，GTV和G|CLUB不是完全独立的两个池子，而是整个racketeering enterprise中的互相关联系统。公开材料里，政府此前也一直主张GTV、G|CLUBS、Farm Loan、Himalaya Exchange等是同一个racketeering enterprise中相互连接的schemes。\n\n所以这里的 “conservative” 很重要。Torres的意思不是“我认定GTV不能没收”，反而更接近：\n\n“我现在把某部分GTV inflows排出去，已经是在采取一个偏谨慎、对郭更有利的算法；严格来说，因为GTV本身属于已经定罪的racketeering conspiracy，而且与其他scheme相连，我甚至有理由把更多GTV inflows考虑进去。”\n\n这就解释了为什么你说这是她继续保留GTV没收依据，这个判断是有道理的。\n\n但这里还有一个非常重要的上诉点：“connected to the enterprise” 和 “legally forfeitable property”不是完全同一个问题。\n\n法院仍然需要回答具体法律链条，例如这些钱究竟是：\n\n犯罪所得 proceeds？郭本人取得的 proceeds？racketeering interest？还是可替代资产 substitute property？\n\n不能只因为“GTV和整个enterprise有关”就自动推出“所有流入GTV的钱都可以没收”。郭方此前也正是在争这一点，例如认为政府把大量 gross inflows 直接当成loss/proceeds，而没有进行充分 tracing，并且混入了并非由欺诈造成的资金。公开的辩方量刑材料也明确提出过这种质疑。\n\n所以如果你把它放到 26-1853 里，我认为真正值得盯的不是“Torres有没有一句话说GTV connected”，而是二巡会不会接受下面这个跳跃：\n\nGTV与RICO enterprise有关\n→ 因此GTV全部/大量inflows属于可没收财产。\n\n这两步之间其实还有法律桥梁要证明。\n\n而且这正好与你之前一直关心的第三方问题接上：如果某笔GTV账户里的钱事实上属于第三方投资人、退款权利人、独立产权人，或者资金来源本身不能证明是郭取得的racketeering proceeds，那么“enterprise connection”并不会自动消灭第三方产权。 这也是为什么 §853(n) 的ownership问题和郭本人的direct appeal虽然程序不同，却可能在事实层面发生碰撞。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":"qfecdff712e81865abab2","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q218bc646996c7576593b","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfecdff712e81865abab2","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000146/pages/3","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000146/pages/3","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q218bc646996c7576593b","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q218bc646996c7576593b/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q218bc646996c7576593b","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qeabf5dade88d6308b438","speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-18T03:14:11.151Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qeabf5dade88d6308b438"},{"id":"q69da98ce527fdaeded9d","speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-18T03:19:20.107Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q69da98ce527fdaeded9d"},{"id":"q513ef4b99194de13b836","speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-18T03:24:10.463Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q513ef4b99194de13b836"},{"id":"qa739b9b1cc29e2f51758","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-18T03:43:15.024Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa739b9b1cc29e2f51758"},{"id":"q7390450a9a9191704718","speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-18T03:49:04.673Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7390450a9a9191704718"},{"id":"q33e815227d4d797fa9bb","speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-18T03:49:34.044Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q33e815227d4d797fa9bb"}],"parent_message":{"id":"qfecdff712e81865abab2","speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-18T02:12:43.467Z","text":"I note that this exclusion is conservative because GTV\ninflows are part of the racketeering conspiracy crime of\nconviction. For example, one witness, Le Zhou, testified that\nto join G|Club, individuals were first required to purchase GTV\nstock. See Trial Transcript page 232, and pages 1376 and 4478.\nIn other words, inflows to GTV are connected to the\nracketeering enterprise as a whole and to other fraudulent\nschemes.\n这是托雷斯还要继续没收gtv的依据。","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfecdff712e81865abab2"}}