{"id":"q34fc7cad8916e4597b01","batch_id":"batch-000147","seq":87,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-19T16:15:19.083Z","text":"所以，从luc退出的条件就证明了破产庭和刑事庭就是一伙的，它们就是要保证这些钱不能再退回去","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":"q29d723d4d0320ef1ecca","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q34fc7cad8916e4597b01","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q29d723d4d0320ef1ecca","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000147","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000147","notice":"这里汇集爆料革命参与者围绕郭文贵案的持续讨论，包括长期深度参与者及自述投入真金白银的投资者。他们分享亲历过程、资金投入与后续遭遇，并结合案卷展开追问、核对和观点交锋。这些来自事件内部的经验与细节，为理解事件经过和投资者处境提供了外部报道之外的重要视角。请结合具体发言判断其经历与依据，引用时保留发言者、时间和上下文。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q34fc7cad8916e4597b01","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q34fc7cad8916e4597b01/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q34fc7cad8916e4597b01","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q589d33e444f05719ee65","speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-19T16:13:27.084Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q589d33e444f05719ee65"},{"id":"qe067874cc59014b7a1c2","speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-19T16:13:49.628Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe067874cc59014b7a1c2"},{"id":"qf26aa5524bdfbfc33906","speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-19T16:14:33.808Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf26aa5524bdfbfc33906"},{"id":"q6a80702eddf85860d4b6","speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-19T16:16:06.558Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6a80702eddf85860d4b6"},{"id":"q8f2afb05d60631b36432","speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-19T16:16:44.050Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8f2afb05d60631b36432"},{"id":"q16a1604f6504a3405edd","speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-19T16:17:18.375Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q16a1604f6504a3405edd"}],"parent_message":{"id":"q29d723d4d0320ef1ecca","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-19T11:56:39.175Z","text":"而5739更值得你抓的是另外一个看起来很“矛盾”、但法律上其实是精心设计的条款：\n\n现在Luc说：\n\n只要这些资产最终并持续受到final forfeiture order约束，我不再争。\n\n但同时又说：\n\n如果某项forfeiture以后被vacated、voided，或者challenge后不再有效，我可以重新主张它属于bankruptcy estate。 5739.pdf\n\n所以这不是严格意义上的“自己骗自己”。更准确地说，是一种条件性撤退：\n\n政府赢forfeiture → Luc不争；\n政府以后因为26-1853或其他挑战失去forfeiture → Luc立即恢复estate claim。\n\n这恰恰说明Luc并没有在实体上承认：\n\n“这些钱肯定不是bankruptcy estate的。”\n\n他只是同意在政府的forfeiture保持有效时不打这场产权官司。\n\n而这对你们现在的思路反而特别重要。因为二巡可以问一个很尖的问题：\n\n既然Trustee至今都没有真正放弃其底层ownership theory，只是通过settlement停止诉讼，那么Torres原来在刑事forfeiture和sentencing中把有关资产当成郭的犯罪所得时，这个底层ownership conflict究竟有没有被事实裁判过？\n\n5739自己的答案很可能是：\n\n没有裁判到底——settled。\n\n所以我会把你这条思路稍微改成一句更硬、更能进法院的话：\n\nThe Trustee did not litigate and lose his asserted superior ownership interests. He withdrew those challenges through a conditional settlement, while expressly preserving his right to reassert estate ownership if the criminal forfeiture is vacated or voided.\n\n这个事实很重要。\n\n因为它说明：\n\n“Luc现在不争” ≠ “Torres当初关于ownership的事实判断已经被Luc验证过。”\n\n恰恰相反，最深的产权冲突从来没有经过完整的§853(n)证据审理。\n\n如果你们真要把5739往“vacate all”的层层论证里放，我觉得这一点比“Luc害怕出庭”更强，也更难被政府一句话反驳。","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q29d723d4d0320ef1ecca"}}