{"id":"q3ae37f40a243712c3338","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":175,"speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-27T11:56:39.621Z","text":"农场借款的投资者的钱是转给了夏凄东，夏转给了Maywind。maywind 被银行冻结。投资人委托夏把钱要回来。夏以MOS的名义要的： 夏拒绝Arizona 法官提供投资人名单的要求，夏通过两个不同的法院，共获得8.13百万美元。其中4.5百万美元属于投资人，另外是9指给的多余的。夏有欺诈行为在这里","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":"q9578f1248094130a2964","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3ae37f40a243712c3338","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9578f1248094130a2964","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3ae37f40a243712c3338","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3ae37f40a243712c3338/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q3ae37f40a243712c3338","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q88158b6b1b328e0e4d9d","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T11:51:41.968Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q88158b6b1b328e0e4d9d"},{"id":"q406e9232127b916a817b","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T11:52:00.581Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q406e9232127b916a817b"},{"id":"qe35c8ed33605de60870c","speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-27T11:55:38.320Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe35c8ed33605de60870c"},{"id":"qf8dd0f3ef65758050f49","speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T11:57:53.993Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf8dd0f3ef65758050f49"},{"id":"qa0057c60cbafb1c02043","speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T11:58:07.175Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa0057c60cbafb1c02043"},{"id":"q1dc7256aca99d3655e02","speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T11:58:17.169Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1dc7256aca99d3655e02"}],"parent_message":{"id":"q9578f1248094130a2964","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T10:42:55.217Z","text":"*底层投资人**\n→ Phoenix / Maywind Farm Loan\n→ 权利转让给MOS\n→ MOS成为法律上的受让人\n→ MOS起诉Maywind/Sara体系\n→ MOS追回813.6万\n→ **底层投资人是否得到退款？未知/至少有人说没有**\n\n这就说明你前面说的“资金法律身份转换”其实比想象中更复杂。\n\n不是简单：\n\n> 投资款 → 和解退款 → 洗白。\n\n而是：\n\n> **个人投资人的债权**\n>\n> → **被转让给Farm实体MOS**\n>\n> → **MOS以自己名义成为民事权利人**\n>\n> → **MOS取得追回款**\n>\n> → **原个人投资人与追回款之间的法律关系需要重新判断。**\n\n---\n\n这对刑事案可能产生一个非常大的问题：\n\n假设某投资人原始损失4万美元。\n\n后来：\n\n> 她把Phoenix债权转让给MOS。\n\n那么从法律上必须问：\n\n**她是否已经把对这4万美元的完整债权转让给MOS？**\n\n如果是，那么：\n\n> 谁是刑事restitution/victim claim的真正权利人？\n\n又或者转让协议只是允许MOS代收、代诉，最终钱还应该返给投资人？\n\n这个必须看具体 **Assignment and Assumption Agreement**。\n\n而Dkt.838里现在已经公开出现了这类协议。协议明确说，原贷款人把对Phoenix/Maywind贷款的 **right, title and interest** 转给 Mountains of Spices LLC；同时后续Addendum又把MOS写成新的Borrower，并允许资金用于经营、政治活动、再放贷、投资等用途。([墓碑科技 MUBEITECH][3])\n\n这个值得高度重视。\n\n因为这可能意味着：\n\n> **原投资人的权利并不是简单“委托MOS代为追回”，而是发生了真正的债权转让/合同重构。**\n\n如果这样，刑事案以后仍然把原投资人按原始Farm本金完整计算为victim loss，就需要解释：\n\n> 转让后她还保留什么法律损失？\n\n反过来，如果MOS只是受托追回并必须返还，那么MOS拿回813.6万却未返还，又会产生另一个问题：\n\n> **真正损失究竟发生在郭原始Farm诈骗，还是后来MOS没有向投资人分配追回款？**\n\n这两个因果链不能混为一个。\n\n---\n\n所以这轮比“有没有扣813万”更重要的发现是：\n\n> **Phoenix投资人的债权后来通过正式Assignment转到Mountains of Spices LLC；MOS再以自己的法律身份追回资金。至少有投资人后来向刑事法院主张，MOS追回后没有把钱返还给她。**\n\n这直接影响：\n\n**victim identity**\n＋ **actual loss**\n＋ **restitution/remission**\n＋ **double recovery**\n＋ **MOS现在到底是在保护自己的钱，还是底层投资人的钱。**\n\n而且这也使你最开始那个问题——\n\n> “MOS参加5739到底想保护什么？”\n\n变得更值得追。\n\n因为MOS可能不只是保护“自己800万”，而是在保护一大批**已经被正式转让给MOS的Phoenix Farm债权/追回权利**。这和普通Farm投资人的身份完全不一样。\n\n目前我会把这条升级到 **★★★★★**。\n\n最值得下一步核的不是再看总金额，而是：\n\n> **Phoenix → MOS 的Assignment合同到底把什么权利转走了；原投资人是否仍保留退款权；MOS追回813.6万以后合同要求怎么分。**\n\n这个一旦弄清楚，才能真正回答你说的：\n\n> **“800万后来到底是谁的钱？”**","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9578f1248094130a2964"}}