{"id":"q3f42ee3f2c380a92e81b","batch_id":"batch-000149","seq":123,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T21:38:01.542Z","text":"这次我挖到一个非常值得26-1853直接研究的二巡新先例连接：2025年的 United States v. Elias。\n\n它的重要性在于：**Elias是二巡自己在2025年、Honeycutt之后，重新梳理“obtained / acquired / proceeds”到底怎么理解的precedential意见。**而Torres在Dkt. 858里处理郭的$889M forfeiture时，核心争议恰好就是这个。\n\nTorres在858里明确写，郭主张自己只能被要求没收“他本人取得过”的tainted proceeds；Torres拒绝这个主张，理由是财产不需要直接在郭手里，只要曾经处于郭的control之下即可，并据此认定郭作为“Boss”控制G Enterprise实体及其资产。\n\n但是二巡在 Elias 里强调得更细：\n\ncriminal forfeiture的典型衡量是defendant’s actual gain；\nHoneycutt的核心不是形式上的joint-and-several标签，而是：不能让一个被告没收他本人从未actually acquired的犯罪收益。\n\nElias甚至明确说，对§981(a)(1)(C)这种在刑事程序中使用的forfeiture，只有“tainted property acquired or used by the defendant”才能作为该被告的没收基础；而且“personal acquisition”是proceeds概念的核心。\n\n这就让858里的“control”分析变得非常值得细查。\n\n注意，我不是说Elias自动推翻858。因为二巡旧案 Contorinis / Tanner / Rajaratnam 的确允许在某些情况下把“实际控制”视为“acquisition”，尤其被告真的掌握了资金调度权时。Contorinis本身说过，如果钱曾经在被告或其共同参与者控制之下，可能算acquired；反过来，如果只是做投资决策却不能控制利润分配，就不够。\n\n所以现在真正的26-1853问题不是一句：\n\n“郭没把889M装自己口袋，所以forfeiture错了。”\n\n那太简单。\n\n真正应该问的是：\n\n政府有没有逐项证明郭本人对Farm、G|CLUBS、HEX那889M gross inflows具有足够实际、可支配的control，从而在Elias/Honeycutt意义上构成“obtained/acquired”？\n\n这和“郭是Boss”并不完全是同一句话。\n\n因为858的关键文字是：\n\n郭控制G Enterprise所有实体及其资产；\n所以这些钱曾在郭control之下。\n\n但Elias提醒二巡，criminal forfeiture必须保持defendant-specific，不能仅仅因为共谋体系里别人拿到了钱，就把整个收益归给一个被告。\n\n所以你们现在最值得查的是：858引用的每一条trial evidence，到底证明的是哪一种“control”：\n\n郭可以建议钱怎么花；\n郭偶尔批准某笔支出；\n郭能命令实体转钱；\n郭具有网银/签字权；\n郭能随时把整个账户资金调走；\n还是只是周围人称他“Boss”。\n\n这几个证据等级差很多。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3f42ee3f2c380a92e81b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000149","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000149","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3f42ee3f2c380a92e81b","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3f42ee3f2c380a92e81b/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q3f42ee3f2c380a92e81b","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q0670f45e863913439969","speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-20T20:55:22.509Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0670f45e863913439969"},{"id":"qebb603cd9aa9bfe791c3","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T20:57:53.944Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qebb603cd9aa9bfe791c3"},{"id":"q71c51d95df28af582b45","speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-20T21:08:46.473Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q71c51d95df28af582b45"},{"id":"q29713dda849256bf08ce","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T21:39:51.961Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q29713dda849256bf08ce"},{"id":"q1269aca89396bab19fda","speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-20T22:07:18.277Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1269aca89396bab19fda"},{"id":"q96bd9b56f12add340aed","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T22:49:17.363Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q96bd9b56f12add340aed"}],"parent_message":null}