{"id":"q509e388c34aca351ea2b","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":7,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:43:40.773Z","text":"更有意思的是，858后来也没有真正把这个问题解决掉。\n\n858最终认定约 $889M 是Farm Loan、G Clubs、HEX的gross cash inflows，并认为这些属于郭犯罪的适当money-judgment基础；法院还认为郭对这些资金有控制并受益。\n\n但是858仍然没有告诉我们：\n\n889m里面\n多少是郭personally obtained proceeds？\n\n多少是Count 3 property involved in laundering？\n\n而joint-and-several liability恰恰只涉及后一块。\n\n所以858之后，我们现在知道：\n\n郭总money judgment = 889m\n\n但仍然不知道：\n\nGuo–Wang共同责任 = ?\n\n这就是我现在认为最值得Robert抓住的地方。\n\n⸻\n\n而且两份命令的文字出现了一个很有意思的“互相挂钩”\n\n王488写：\n\n王与郭共同承担laundering property，\n“to the extent a forfeiture money judgment is entered against Guo.” \n\n郭720又反过来写：\n\n郭与王共同承担Count 3 property，\n“to the extent a forfeiture money judgment is entered against Wang.” gov.uscourts.nysd.595325.720.0.pdf\n\n也就是说，两张judgment实际上互相引用对方的money judgment作为共同责任的边界。\n\n但：\n\n王 = 1.4B\n\n郭最初 = 1.3B\n\n郭后来 = 889M\n\n而双方真正共同的Count 2/Count 3 laundering component却从来没有在我们目前找到的命令里单独列一个数字。\n\n我不会现在说这本身就使judgment无效——还需要看二巡关于Rule 32.2和money-laundering forfeiture的具体标准。\n\n但这已经可以形成一个很清楚的审计问题：\n\nHow much of each defendant’s money judgment actually represents the jointly-and-severally-liable laundering property?\n\n法院命令表面上回答不了。\n\n⸻\n\nRule 32.2为什么在这里开始重要\n\nRule 32.2(b)(1)(A)要求：\n\n如果政府要求personal money judgment，法院必须确定被告应当支付的金额；如果是specific property，则必须确定specific property与犯罪之间的nexus。\n\n这里法院确实给出了“总金额”。\n\n所以不能简单说：\n\n“没有分项=违反Rule 32.2。”\n\n这还说早了。\n\n但一旦政府在同一个总数里混合：\n\npersonally obtained proceeds\n\n和\n\njoint-and-several laundering property\n\n而这两类责任的法律性质、责任主体和后续credit方式不同，那么不进行任何allocation，会产生非常现实的问题：","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q509e388c34aca351ea2b","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q509e388c34aca351ea2b","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q509e388c34aca351ea2b/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q509e388c34aca351ea2b","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qc80b2df7d7f62c2f7e17","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:32:59.911Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc80b2df7d7f62c2f7e17"},{"id":"qc6dd1f73e66ab728f7c6","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T10:41:51.004Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc6dd1f73e66ab728f7c6"},{"id":"qfa9f22524ffed18d3861","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:43:14.720Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfa9f22524ffed18d3861"},{"id":"qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:46:17.990Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa06ca3ff3be113d82820"},{"id":"qecf9db2881a0ac29af62","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:46:40.904Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qecf9db2881a0ac29af62"},{"id":"qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:48:59.353Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710"}],"parent_message":null}