{"id":"q5464b0a10eeb7dc78437","batch_id":"batch-000147","seq":146,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-19T20:47:50.315Z","text":"还有一个更老但同样有用的二巡案：United States v. Shellef, 507 F.3d 82 (2d Cir. 2007)。二巡明确说，如果 jury 被给予多个 conviction theories，其中一个法律上无效，而且无法知道 jury 究竟依靠哪个理论定罪，verdict 可能需要推翻。那个案子本身因为 misjoinder vacated，但二巡也讨论了 wire-fraud theory 的法律充分性。\n\n这对夜神月特别有用，因为如果最终能证明郭案 jury 面前存在一个：\n\n“这些投入美国体系的钱当然都是普通私人受害者财产”\n\n这样的基础假设，而 Tony 的证据显示这个 premise 并没有真正被验证，那么下一步就可以问：\n\n政府是不是给 jury 了一个法律上或事实基础上不完整的 fraud theory？\n\n再往前，还有第二条完全不同的线：跨境案件的美国 nexus。\n\n这里二巡 United States v. Yousef, 750 F.3d 254 (2d Cir. 2014) 很关键。它一方面对夜神月不利：二巡明确说，territorial nexus 通常不是 subject-matter jurisdiction，所以不能简单说“有跨主权冲突，Torres 就没有权审”。\n\n但另一方面，它也留下了 due-process 路径：高度境外化的刑事行为适用美国刑法时，仍然存在 constitutional nexus / fairness 问题，只不过属于 merits / due process，而不是 §3231 jurisdiction。\n\n而且二巡2025年的 United States v. Lopez, No. 23-7183 又再次谈到跨国 wire/mail fraud：为了避免只是偶然经过美国的 wire 把一个本质外国的 fraud 全部拉进美国法院，国内 wire 使用必须是 essential，而不是 merely incidental。\n\n所以夜神月现在其实可以搭成两条平行路线：\n\n* 路线A：property / fraud premise。 从 Tony 的材料往前倒，看美国政府从 indictment / trial 开始有没有正确证明 victim、property、deprivation、proceeds。这条用 Chastain + Ciminelli/Aiello + Hild。\n* 路线B：cross-border constitutional reach。 如果相关交易和法律身份高度境外化，看美国刑法适用有没有充分 nexus。这条用 Yousef + Lopez/Napout 系列。\n\n而 Tony 现有 record 确实已经给路线A留了接口：renewed mandamus 说这些 unresolved matters 涉及 victim identity、ownership、tracing、forfeiture scope 和 loss framework，并且指出源资金高度混同、经过中介。 Tony renewed Mandamus.pdf","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5464b0a10eeb7dc78437","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000147","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000147","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5464b0a10eeb7dc78437","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5464b0a10eeb7dc78437/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q5464b0a10eeb7dc78437","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qa81c32085444daa0fa95","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-19T20:43:43.751Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa81c32085444daa0fa95"},{"id":"qe006b8b5bec9c982ce9a","speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-19T20:45:41.485Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe006b8b5bec9c982ce9a"},{"id":"q6fc15d07ac95e5a82f46","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-19T20:47:33.023Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6fc15d07ac95e5a82f46"},{"id":"qcd69e5e114587013b865","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-19T20:48:04.996Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qcd69e5e114587013b865"},{"id":"q1e54a28ba8588cee776f","speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-19T20:55:22.990Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1e54a28ba8588cee776f"},{"id":"q5598f47118514f8aa676","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-19T20:57:07.013Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5598f47118514f8aa676"}],"parent_message":null}