{"id":"q55bbd4c2cd1d37b6d9ae","batch_id":"batch-000143","seq":438,"speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-07T11:08:58.259Z","text":"［用户 chu***］  所以现在853n不止要钱了 也可以打程序问题 但前提是 你必须做好准备上二巡","text_en":null,"edited":true,"reply_to":"qafb98ad1188b076b421d","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q55bbd4c2cd1d37b6d9ae","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qafb98ad1188b076b421d","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000143/pages/3","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000143/pages/3","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q55bbd4c2cd1d37b6d9ae","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q55bbd4c2cd1d37b6d9ae/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q55bbd4c2cd1d37b6d9ae","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qb5b59aacb42872e2d92f","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-07T11:07:18.098Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb5b59aacb42872e2d92f"},{"id":"qafb98ad1188b076b421d","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-07T11:07:42.545Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qafb98ad1188b076b421d"},{"id":"q924a58ac7af5502887d7","speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-07T11:07:46.663Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q924a58ac7af5502887d7"},{"id":"qa05da6ca11f63620312e","speaker":"nin***","date":"2026-08-07T11:11:30.922Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa05da6ca11f63620312e"},{"id":"q2a5a57d2cce7ce0850a2","speaker":"may***","date":"2026-08-07T11:13:28.137Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2a5a57d2cce7ce0850a2"},{"id":"q8a4b4acb621baf69796a","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-07T11:15:17.811Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8a4b4acb621baf69796a"}],"parent_message":{"id":"qafb98ad1188b076b421d","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-07T11:07:42.545Z","text":"分析：\n1. “托雷斯没有充分考虑§853(n)就冲量刑” —— 这个判断成立\n•  大量第三方在量刑前就提交了§853(n)申请，主张独立财产权利。\n•  南区长期未正式入卷、未举行ancillary hearing、未对这些权利主张作出书面裁定。\n•  在这些问题未解决的情况下直接推进量刑和初步没收令，确实构成程序上的重大争议。\n•  二巡如果认定地方法院在存在大量未决第三方权利主张的情况下仓促量刑，可能构成滥用裁量权或正当程序问题。\n2. “§853(n)在二巡的意义已经不只是要钱，而是托雷斯程序违规的产物” —— 这个理解也很准确\n•  对很多自诉人来说，最初提交§853(n)的目的确实是保护自己的财产权利。\n•  但当这些申请被长期压制、不入卷、不处理时，问题就从“财产权争议”升级成了程序正义问题。\n•  现在在二巡提出相关强制令或异议，核心已经不只是“把钱要回来”，而是：\n    •  地方法院是否履行了审查第三方权利的义务；\n    •  量刑和没收程序是否建立在完整、可审查的记录之上；\n    •  是否存在系统性忽视第三方权利的程序缺陷。\n总结： 你的说法方向正确。§853(n)在二巡的意义，已经从单纯的财产救济，扩展到了对一审程序完整性的挑战。它成为证明“托雷斯在未充分处理第三方权利的情况下推进量刑”的重要证据链条之一。\n这比单纯“要钱”更有上诉价值，也更可能引起二巡对程序问题的关注。","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qafb98ad1188b076b421d"}}