{"id":"q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":154,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T10:49:06.639Z","text":"简单说就是，Mos LLC收到这800W，未返给投资者\n这部分loss，不应该还算在这个诈骗案里","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":"q9578f1248094130a2964","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9578f1248094130a2964","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q64fb1fc0f14590230d6f","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qc4a9576b6ba3e9732d48","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T10:41:17.689Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc4a9576b6ba3e9732d48"},{"id":"q9ed11a3fd23f0057f4fa","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T10:42:48.676Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9ed11a3fd23f0057f4fa"},{"id":"q9578f1248094130a2964","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T10:42:55.217Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9578f1248094130a2964"},{"id":"q83a274de31a77f6c4821","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T10:55:29.963Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q83a274de31a77f6c4821"},{"id":"q0fd5c70caedd5e136c70","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T10:55:41.582Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q0fd5c70caedd5e136c70"},{"id":"q8e37ca35bd9711a7f291","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T10:55:43.423Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8e37ca35bd9711a7f291"}],"parent_message":{"id":"q9578f1248094130a2964","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T10:42:55.217Z","text":"*底层投资人**\n→ Phoenix / Maywind Farm Loan\n→ 权利转让给MOS\n→ MOS成为法律上的受让人\n→ MOS起诉Maywind/Sara体系\n→ MOS追回813.6万\n→ **底层投资人是否得到退款？未知/至少有人说没有**\n\n这就说明你前面说的“资金法律身份转换”其实比想象中更复杂。\n\n不是简单：\n\n> 投资款 → 和解退款 → 洗白。\n\n而是：\n\n> **个人投资人的债权**\n>\n> → **被转让给Farm实体MOS**\n>\n> → **MOS以自己名义成为民事权利人**\n>\n> → **MOS取得追回款**\n>\n> → **原个人投资人与追回款之间的法律关系需要重新判断。**\n\n---\n\n这对刑事案可能产生一个非常大的问题：\n\n假设某投资人原始损失4万美元。\n\n后来：\n\n> 她把Phoenix债权转让给MOS。\n\n那么从法律上必须问：\n\n**她是否已经把对这4万美元的完整债权转让给MOS？**\n\n如果是，那么：\n\n> 谁是刑事restitution/victim claim的真正权利人？\n\n又或者转让协议只是允许MOS代收、代诉，最终钱还应该返给投资人？\n\n这个必须看具体 **Assignment and Assumption Agreement**。\n\n而Dkt.838里现在已经公开出现了这类协议。协议明确说，原贷款人把对Phoenix/Maywind贷款的 **right, title and interest** 转给 Mountains of Spices LLC；同时后续Addendum又把MOS写成新的Borrower，并允许资金用于经营、政治活动、再放贷、投资等用途。([墓碑科技 MUBEITECH][3])\n\n这个值得高度重视。\n\n因为这可能意味着：\n\n> **原投资人的权利并不是简单“委托MOS代为追回”，而是发生了真正的债权转让/合同重构。**\n\n如果这样，刑事案以后仍然把原投资人按原始Farm本金完整计算为victim loss，就需要解释：\n\n> 转让后她还保留什么法律损失？\n\n反过来，如果MOS只是受托追回并必须返还，那么MOS拿回813.6万却未返还，又会产生另一个问题：\n\n> **真正损失究竟发生在郭原始Farm诈骗，还是后来MOS没有向投资人分配追回款？**\n\n这两个因果链不能混为一个。\n\n---\n\n所以这轮比“有没有扣813万”更重要的发现是：\n\n> **Phoenix投资人的债权后来通过正式Assignment转到Mountains of Spices LLC；MOS再以自己的法律身份追回资金。至少有投资人后来向刑事法院主张，MOS追回后没有把钱返还给她。**\n\n这直接影响：\n\n**victim identity**\n＋ **actual loss**\n＋ **restitution/remission**\n＋ **double recovery**\n＋ **MOS现在到底是在保护自己的钱，还是底层投资人的钱。**\n\n而且这也使你最开始那个问题——\n\n> “MOS参加5739到底想保护什么？”\n\n变得更值得追。\n\n因为MOS可能不只是保护“自己800万”，而是在保护一大批**已经被正式转让给MOS的Phoenix Farm债权/追回权利**。这和普通Farm投资人的身份完全不一样。\n\n目前我会把这条升级到 **★★★★★**。\n\n最值得下一步核的不是再看总金额，而是：\n\n> **Phoenix → MOS 的Assignment合同到底把什么权利转走了；原投资人是否仍保留退款权；MOS追回813.6万以后合同要求怎么分。**\n\n这个一旦弄清楚，才能真正回答你说的：\n\n> **“800万后来到底是谁的钱？”**","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9578f1248094130a2964"}}