{"id":"q6bbed20cefd2cc5310b9","batch_id":"batch-000151","seq":202,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T09:17:59.646Z","text":"Preliminary Forfeiture of Specific Property\n\n政府先主张具体资产可没收。\n\n↓\n\n§853(n) Ancillary Proceedings\n\n第三方出来证明：\n\n这钱/资产其实有我的right/title/interest。\n\n↓\n\nFinal Order of Forfeiture\n\n第三方产权处理完以后，剩下真正属于被告并依法可没收的部分才最终归美国。\n\n↓\n\nCredit against Money Judgment\n\n最终没收的Specific Property再去冲抵8.89亿美元。\n\n所以“859写进去”绝对不等于“美国已经最终拥有全部这些钱”。\n\n859第4–7段自己就明确保留了§853(n)。\n\n⸻\n\n还有一个非常重要的细节\n\n859第1段写的是：\n\n“all of the Defendant’s right, title, and interest in the Additional Specific Property”\n\n被没收。\n\n它不是说：\n\n整个账户里的所有钱，无论是谁的，都已经最终属于美国。\n\n这就是为什么后面必须有§853(n)。\n\n如果一个账户有第三方合法产权，理论上第三方就是来证明：\n\n这一部分不是Defendant’s right, title and interest。\n\n这个措辞对你们现在一直研究的第三方产权非常重要。\n\n⸻\n\n所以现在我们可以把整个结构画得很清楚\n\n720（2025/8/11）\n\n原Preliminary Order：\n\n~$1.3B money judgment\n\n* 原Specific Property。\n\n↓\n\n858（2026/6/29）\n\n重新处理money judgment：\n\n减掉约$411m GTV → ~$889m。\n\n↓\n\n859（2026/6/30）\n\n不是重新增加郭的money judgment。\n\n而是：\n\n追加5组Additional Specific Property\n\n依据：\n\nCounts 1、2、4、7–11\n\n* Count 3 laundering。\n\n↓\n\n第三方：\n\n§853(n)\n\n↓\n\n最后：\n\nFinal Order of Forfeiture\n\n↓\n\n真正归美国的Specific Property：\n\n冲抵$889m Money Judgment。\n\n这一次Robert指出的核心区别，我认为应该接受。\n\n但同样需要纠正群里另一种容易走偏的说法：\n\n859不是“为了8.89亿不够，所以随便抓几个账户来填”。\n\n859仍然要求这些Additional Specific Property本身具有法定没收基础——郭本人取得的有罪counts proceeds，或者Count 3涉及/可追溯的laundering property。\n\n这恰恰是以后可以攻击859的地方：不是争“总数够不够”，而是逐个账户问政府有没有证明这个nexus。\n\n而你刚上传的859原件已经让我们确认一个非常重要的事实：\n\n859没有把郭已经无罪的GTV Counts 5/6作为新增Specific Property的没收基础。\n\n所以以后再讨论“王认罪是不是替郭把GTV塞回859”，我们就可以直接拿859原文说：至少这份命令表面上不是这么干的。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6bbed20cefd2cc5310b9","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000151/pages/2","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000151/pages/2","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6bbed20cefd2cc5310b9","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6bbed20cefd2cc5310b9/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q6bbed20cefd2cc5310b9","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q681458b3479ca061c6ea","speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T09:16:37.293Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q681458b3479ca061c6ea"},{"id":"q247a7ba7cee3334d8db8","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T09:16:46.023Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q247a7ba7cee3334d8db8"},{"id":"q4742576abb72517d4859","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T09:17:22.190Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4742576abb72517d4859"},{"id":"q4a64cb2ed73860b096e7","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T09:22:41.968Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4a64cb2ed73860b096e7"},{"id":"qc1c42e2f2874f9c15938","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T09:24:38.187Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc1c42e2f2874f9c15938"},{"id":"q7c0690efb7ff5b4b001a","speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T09:25:10.947Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7c0690efb7ff5b4b001a"}],"parent_message":null}