{"id":"q73a0206c4af7e60fb0d5","batch_id":"batch-000148","seq":116,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T05:46:45.755Z","text":"同时政府又明确说，它最终“intends to forfeit”郭企业的criminal proceeds，不过资产争议原则上要等刑事审判以后根据Rule 32.2和§853(n)处理。\n\n这就出现了你所说的那个非常值得关注的结构：\n\n2023年：产权没有最终裁判\n→ 刑事责任没有最终裁判\n→ final forfeiture当然也不存在\n→ 但政府已经和Luc安排Mahwah控制/出售，并约定以后谈销售款分配。\n\n而且郭方当时就明确向Torres提出过这个问题。2023年10月5日的刑事文件ECF 152直接概括政府的立场：因为在陪审团定罪以前政府自己不能完成forfeiture，所以政府选择帮助不受这一刑事定罪前提约束的Trustee处理Mahwah。这个说法当时就是郭方在攻击这种安排。\n\n所以你现在问：\n\n是不是说明Luc介入刑事资产处置是一开始就设计好的？\n\n我会分成两个层次。\n\n第一层，可以相当有把握地说：存在早期、有意识的跨程序协调。\n\n这已经不是猜测。至少2023年7月以后，Government和Luc已经有正式Mahwah Settlement，政府提供刑事调查取得的照片，政府承诺不反对Luc控制/出售，双方还预留了以后谈销售收益分配的机制。\n\n这足以支持：\n\nLuc—Government cooperation over Mahwah was not an accidental development that arose only after final forfeiture. It was structured while the criminal case and ownership litigation were still pending.\n\n这个命题我认为记录支撑很强。\n\n但是第二层：\n\n“从刑事案一开始，检方就秘密设计好让Luc替刑事案先拿资产”\n\n目前我还不会写成已经证明的事实。\n\n要证明“predetermined scheme / prearranged plan”，最好再找到更早的communications，例如：\n\n* 2023年3月起诉之前或刚起诉后，检方与Luc之间的email；\n* 谁先提出Mahwah Settlement；\n* 为什么政府会把FBI照片主动交给Luc；\n* 双方第一次讨论“销售收益最终怎么分”是什么时候；\n* 有没有内部文件写着先由bankruptcy Trustee取得控制，之后再通过criminal forfeiture/restitution接走资产；\n* Torres和Manning当时分别被告知了多少。\n\n如果这些communications显示：\n\n“政府目前不能直接forfeit → 所以先让Trustee取得资产 → 以后政府再取得销售款/分配权”\n\n那你说的“先上车，再补票”就不再只是一个形象比喻，而可能成为一个有证据支撑的程序完整性论点。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q73a0206c4af7e60fb0d5","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000148","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000148","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q73a0206c4af7e60fb0d5","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q73a0206c4af7e60fb0d5/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q73a0206c4af7e60fb0d5","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q56f0d4528a273729ca2d","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T05:32:59.837Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q56f0d4528a273729ca2d"},{"id":"q3ea471253f6025ff2ec6","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T05:45:03.718Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3ea471253f6025ff2ec6"},{"id":"q652cb81f4029c6535c3c","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T05:46:24.403Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q652cb81f4029c6535c3c"},{"id":"qa130eb4fa58f3697eed5","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T05:47:01.102Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa130eb4fa58f3697eed5"},{"id":"qa1445742450fba20a8b7","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T05:50:58.472Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa1445742450fba20a8b7"},{"id":"q67dcbe892a0ee223ac5a","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T05:52:07.606Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q67dcbe892a0ee223ac5a"}],"parent_message":null}