{"id":"q8f8b482c42516bd8d559","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":17,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T11:33:28.586Z","text":"858就是用的流入即犯罪所得，由boss，不是陪审团定的boss，是王指任而已，承担全部责任。如果没有紧随858之后的补充初步没收令，然后帮政府和法院圆一下就是：王的第一部分是那几百万或者那一两百万，或者干脆就没有，第二部分与郭承担8.89亿的连带责任。既然都说是动态的，就把它动态到郭那边去。但是后面的补充没收令里，还是13亿，就说明，它们就是打算找人来背多出的4.11亿。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":"q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8f8b482c42516bd8d559","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8f8b482c42516bd8d559","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8f8b482c42516bd8d559/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q8f8b482c42516bd8d559","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q7d79720c1f3a8dd1668d","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:52:11.161Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q7d79720c1f3a8dd1668d"},{"id":"q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:52:28.228Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc"},{"id":"q11dec8c32ac78d3556d2","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T10:58:01.077Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q11dec8c32ac78d3556d2"},{"id":"qa6389c1d1dc3032b86b8","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T11:41:56.897Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa6389c1d1dc3032b86b8"},{"id":"qe45e261b6840646ac2ba","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-25T11:45:10.472Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe45e261b6840646ac2ba"},{"id":"q8251705f79f7377f6b00","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T11:45:49.688Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8251705f79f7377f6b00"}],"parent_message":{"id":"q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:52:28.228Z","text":"这对Robert一直说的“找一个boss背剩余金额”其实是反方向的。\n\n法律不是：\n\n“犯罪集团有个总数，就找谁能抓就让谁补。”\n\n而是：\n\n要先证明这个具体被告实际取得了哪部分proceeds；只有那部分后来找不到时，才谈他的substitute assets。\n\n所以Robert“不要替政府先假设对”这个态度值得保留，但Elias恰好说明‘再抓一个boss来背’并不是正确法律逻辑。\n\n真正强的攻击是：\n\n政府是否把enterprise-wide aggregate flows/GXZ26 gross inflows转化成Guo personally obtained proceeds，而没有做被告个人化的acquisition finding。\n\n这条和我们前面的ACA/Hinton问题已经彻底连上了：\n\nGXZ26：政府分类的aggregate flow\n\n→ Hinton：没有独立项目知识、没有transaction-level tracing\n\n→ ACA：存在commingled/other inflows\n\n→ Dkt.469：13亿资金实际流向多个不同实体/主体\n\n→ 720/858：却形成一个统一Money Judgment\n\n→ Elias：proceeds必须证明这个被告本人取得\n\n这一条我现在会提升为 ★★★★★ 的forfeiture appellate issue。\n\n而且这可能比王14亿本身更直接帮助郭26-1853，因为Elias是二巡自己的新判例，且正好发生在26-1853审理期间可以直接引用。\n\n我现在认为下一步最值得继续打穿的是：858究竟用哪些事实把Farm/G Club/HEX的8.89亿从“流入G Enterprise账户”进一步变成“Guo personally obtained proceeds”。 只要那一步主要靠“control / boss / enterprise”而不是具体取得、支配、受益证据，Elias的价值会进一步上升。","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q83e6d7dbb2bb95c510bc"}}