{"id":"q96fa8fd28248b2c2d6c6","batch_id":"batch-000149","seq":172,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-21T19:20:51.571Z","text":"5739这里尤其值得注意\n\n你们现在可以把刑事案和破产案画成这样：\n\n同一投资人 / 同一资金\n→ 刑事案：\nvictim？§853(n) claimant？forfeiture property？\n\n同时\n\n→ 破产案：\ncreditor？property owner？estate property？\n\n然后5739：\n\nGovernment + Luc试图决定这批重叠资产以后在哪个体系处理。\n\n这就是为什么第三方不应该缺席5739。\n\n因为Luc和美国政府可以解决他们彼此之间的争议，但理论上不能仅靠二方settlement消灭真正第三方独立存在的产权。\n\n而且本案过去的settlement approval record也显示，法院会关心是否有人提出written objection；此前一份9019 settlement hearing里，法院就特别提到“无人提出written objection”作为批准背景。\n\n现在5739已经不是这种状态——已经有第三方反对。\n\n所以8月25日听证会的record会非常重要。\n\n⸻\n\n一句话总结\n\n刑事案里的“自诉第三方”到了破产案，不能靠刑事案身份自动进场；但只要他同时是债权人、投资人、具体财产权主张人，或者5739直接影响他的经济权利，就完全可能以creditor、property claimant、party in interest或intervenor身份参加破产案。\n\n而且对你们这批投资人来说，最值得研究的不是“能不能去说话”，而是：\n\n同一笔钱，在刑事案里主张§853(n)，在破产案里同时主张不是§541 estate property。\n\n如果事实和产权证据一致，这两条线是可以互相强化的。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q96fa8fd28248b2c2d6c6","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000149","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000149","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q96fa8fd28248b2c2d6c6","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q96fa8fd28248b2c2d6c6/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q96fa8fd28248b2c2d6c6","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q90d0fea82e873ea0b946","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-21T19:19:00.110Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q90d0fea82e873ea0b946"},{"id":"q09509c588364761fb9ae","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-21T19:19:37.047Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q09509c588364761fb9ae"},{"id":"q6f3a248c0ec14eb29795","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-21T19:20:19.780Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6f3a248c0ec14eb29795"},{"id":"q6bdbaaf9c2273661aef5","speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-21T20:00:40.159Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q6bdbaaf9c2273661aef5"},{"id":"qd29e47bfb9184693a150","speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-21T20:16:05.564Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd29e47bfb9184693a150"},{"id":"qeab91238eaeeecc6e04d","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-21T20:37:05.991Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qeab91238eaeeecc6e04d"}],"parent_message":null}