{"id":"q9cf0bef1f8be6177ea34","batch_id":"batch-000150","seq":238,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-23T03:59:03.138Z","text":"可以。最通俗地说，群友这句话有一半说对了，一半说反了。\n\n你先把它想成三个人在抢同一批财产：\n\n* 政府说：这些财产是刑事犯罪所得，我要没收。\n* Luc说：这些财产属于破产财产，我要拿去破产分配。\n* 第三方投资人说：等等，这里面有些钱本来就是我的。\n\n858号文件做的事情，主要是确认：\n\n政府确实可以没收720号初步没收令里列出来的那些财产。\n\n但858并没有说：\n\n政府现在必须立刻去Luc那里把东西强行搬走。\n\n恰恰相反，858写得很清楚：政府有权去拿，但不是必须马上拿；什么时候拿、怎么拿，规则没有强制规定。法院甚至说，它自己也不能命令政府“你现在必须去Luc那里把资产拿回来”。 gov.uscourts.nysd.595325.858.0.pdf\n\n所以群友说：\n\n“政府没有何时、怎样执行的裁量权。”\n\n这一句是不对的。858正好说的是相反意思。\n\n另外，858也确实说了：\n\n如果第三方说“这些财产其实是我的”，要通过 §853(n)附属程序解决。\n\n也就是说，政府先说“这些资产可以没收”，不等于第三方产权已经被消灭。第三方还可以出来证明：\n\n“虽然法院说这笔资产和郭的犯罪有关，但法律上我对其中某项财产有更优先的所有权。”\n\n858明确说，这些第三方产权问题要另外处理，而且当时法院没有判断这些第三方谁输谁赢。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9cf0bef1f8be6177ea34","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000150/pages/2","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000150/pages/2","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9cf0bef1f8be6177ea34","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9cf0bef1f8be6177ea34/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/q9cf0bef1f8be6177ea34","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q8b79757ef1b8dfaed8e4","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-23T03:55:28.413Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8b79757ef1b8dfaed8e4"},{"id":"qbf38011342c6e2971d84","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-23T03:56:42.310Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbf38011342c6e2971d84"},{"id":"qf09b6638cfadae7b2799","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-23T03:56:53.947Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf09b6638cfadae7b2799"},{"id":"qbcdbb6afdfb00ed437e2","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-23T03:59:23.608Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbcdbb6afdfb00ed437e2"},{"id":"q9e6aa67697c7bc8293c4","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-23T04:14:34.657Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9e6aa67697c7bc8293c4"},{"id":"q82c6c2f90c9a050e302a","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-23T04:15:49.989Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q82c6c2f90c9a050e302a"}],"parent_message":null}