{"id":"qb09eb08c17705511ca9b","batch_id":"batch-000148","seq":176,"speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-20T09:46:16.379Z","text":"刑事案这边，不是引用破产案结论，而是把luc的主张和操作，包装成了破产法院的结论进行呈现。我一直强调，所谓的追回欺诈转移的前提不成立，这些叙事不能用证人证词，证据的方式呈现给陪审团，用来作为其它刑事程序的证据。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":"qe900efb308e93c13255e","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb09eb08c17705511ca9b","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe900efb308e93c13255e","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000148","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000148","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb09eb08c17705511ca9b","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb09eb08c17705511ca9b/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/qb09eb08c17705511ca9b","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qdcc01f5ba96faedad983","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T09:39:17.297Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qdcc01f5ba96faedad983"},{"id":"q2cc252ef897fcb3e5304","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T09:39:36.150Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q2cc252ef897fcb3e5304"},{"id":"qb592f0cec285a8201865","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T09:43:04.972Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb592f0cec285a8201865"},{"id":"q360137eef4f01472955f","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T09:48:11.403Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q360137eef4f01472955f"},{"id":"q21ebe02becce208ebcd6","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T09:48:18.076Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q21ebe02becce208ebcd6"},{"id":"q5f0824fe3d3c538e84ee","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T09:48:43.120Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5f0824fe3d3c538e84ee"}],"parent_message":{"id":"qe900efb308e93c13255e","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T09:38:37.960Z","text":"更关键的是，她还允许政府使用“shell company / figurehead executives / straw owners / alter ego”这一类词，只要求政府在使用前建立足够的factual predicate。\n\n所以你现在提出的审查问题可以变得非常具体：\n\nTorres嘴上设了一道防火墙：\n\n破产案的结论不能直接当刑事事实。\n\n但实际刑事案推进过程中，政府有没有通过另一种方式把同样的破产叙事事实化了？\n\n这个问题非常值得查。\n\n我已经找到至少四个节点。\n\n第一个：S3起诉书。\n\nS3一开头不是说“政府怀疑存在很多受害者”，而是直接向大陪审团陈述：\n\ndefendants conspired to defraud thousands of victims of more than approximately $1 billion.\n\n随后直接把大量实体定义成 G Enterprise，并说这些实体是被告创建、维持、控制，用于获取fraud proceeds、洗钱、为郭及家人购买资产。S3还专门把郭2022年的bankruptcy写进 “Concealment of Ownership and Control”，并直接声称这些实体实际上由郭、Je、Wang等拥有和/或控制。\n\n也就是说，在起诉阶段，“thousands of victims”“fraud proceeds”“G Enterprise ownership/control”已经作为政府的刑事事实理论完整出现。","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe900efb308e93c13255e"}}