{"id":"qb3455f123a1daadac459","batch_id":"batch-000154","seq":11,"speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T22:35:43.259Z","text":"破产案luc到现在都没有证明G系列是郭的alter ego","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":"qf8b5bd39d5760a423b2b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb3455f123a1daadac459","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf8b5bd39d5760a423b2b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000154","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000154","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb3455f123a1daadac459","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb3455f123a1daadac459/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/qb3455f123a1daadac459","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q188c32bf5468ff52ecb1","speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-27T21:34:15.304Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q188c32bf5468ff52ecb1"},{"id":"q658ec9865e0bb5d2e430","speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-27T21:35:27.516Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q658ec9865e0bb5d2e430"},{"id":"qb842b92d521fcef55821","speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-27T22:19:28.026Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb842b92d521fcef55821"},{"id":"q3a662966aa0ea809d8df","speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T22:36:31.031Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q3a662966aa0ea809d8df"},{"id":"q8c809be1c8cb9c08c2ef","speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T22:38:06.800Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q8c809be1c8cb9c08c2ef"},{"id":"qe8698ff45621f5652778","speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-27T22:39:20.489Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qe8698ff45621f5652778"}],"parent_message":{"id":"qf8b5bd39d5760a423b2b","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T20:35:20.531Z","text":"“郭是不是Boss”不是没价值，但它现在更像是辅助拆解858没收归因、agency、alter ego的工具；如果把它当26-1853的总主轴，确实容易被政府一句“陪审团已经认定整个enterprise、法院也作了leadership finding”拖回事实争议。你说的“打地基”更值得优先：政府和法院在作出定罪、量刑、没收之前，是否掌握了会改变资金性质、受害者身份、归属结构或法院裁量判断的重要事实，却用一个过度简化的模型呈现给陪审团和法院。\n\n而你对 716-4 的提醒是对的。我刚刚重新把原件核了。这里甚至不应该再说“要证明检方知道716-4”。716-4本身就是政府于2025年7月28日提交的附件，而里面的核心FBI affidavit反映的是执法机关早期调查所得；所以真正的问题不是knowledge存在不存在，而是knowledge的时间、范围和后续呈现方式。\n\n更重要的是，716-4确实留下了几处可以往你说的“大陆投资人资金方式”继续打的政府自身记录。\n\n它明确说，FBI/SEC不仅仅看到一个简单的“投资人 → G Club/HEX账户”模型。Agent写的是，执法机关已经识别出至少80多个银行账户用于处理相关资金，其中包括约19个G Club账户、16个Crane账户、28个Farm账户、8个G Fashion账户、14个Hamilton账户以及至少3个Himalaya实体账户。也就是说，政府自己的调查模型从一开始就是多实体、多账户、多金融机构，而不是一个平面的收款池。\n\n更直接的是716-4第57页。政府自己写：\n\n2022年1月24日至4月4日，大约 $73.8 million 进入Hamilton Opportunity Fund账户；这些incoming transfers主要是来自 Chinese individuals 的wire，单笔大约从$1,100到$3m不等，而且有些个人多次汇款。\n\n然后Agent不是说这些人直接把钱汇到所谓“正确投资主体”，而是自己解释：资金可能被导向**“an entity other than the intended investment vehicle”**，也就是投资人意图购买G Club或Himalaya Exchange，但钱进入另一个实体账户。\n\n这一点很关键。","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf8b5bd39d5760a423b2b"}}