{"id":"qba63091b05a5d8d7b736","batch_id":"batch-000148","seq":185,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T10:15:10.576Z","text":"按“独立诉讼/程序”数：目前至少7单已经在alter ego / beneficial ownership核心问题上判Luc胜。\n\n按“被法院实际判成alter ego或郭beneficially owned的公司实体”数：明显超过7家，保守算至少十家左右。\n\n但是，这和Luc提的260多件avoidance adversaries完全不是一个概念。法院2025年自己写得很清楚：Luc已经提了260多件追回诉讼，而那些案件大量只是把“某些付款公司是郭的alter ego/beneficially owned”作为诉状里的连接理论。法院在驳回dismiss motion时说的是Luc已经plausibly alleged这些关系，并不是说260多件都已经经过实体审判认定alter ego成立。\n\n所以你截图里的争论，真正应该这样回答：\n\n“Luc起诉了260多单” ≠ “法院已经260多次认定alter ego”。目前真正有明确judgment支持alter ego/beneficial ownership的，是少数基础性实体案件；大量后续avoidance suits是在引用、依赖或者试图扩展这些基础判决。\n\n而且还有一个很重要的细节：这些“Luc胜诉”里面有不少是default judgment，而不是双方完整举证以后法院作出的merits trial judgment。 HCHK、Golden Spring、Lamp最初的判决就存在这个区别；HK USA、Greenwich、Taurus、Hudson Diamond/Leading Shine则有summary judgment层面的实体审查。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qba63091b05a5d8d7b736","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000148","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000148","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qba63091b05a5d8d7b736","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qba63091b05a5d8d7b736/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/qba63091b05a5d8d7b736","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qbd84d2733c55b0277d35","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T10:03:40.275Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbd84d2733c55b0277d35"},{"id":"q992d8dfeb2465cec4dc9","speaker":"hel***","date":"2026-08-20T10:12:45.559Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q992d8dfeb2465cec4dc9"},{"id":"q4017f98c1b0267f65de2","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T10:14:45.706Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4017f98c1b0267f65de2"},{"id":"q5eaff47fa15dd6ac2227","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T10:15:26.447Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q5eaff47fa15dd6ac2227"},{"id":"q147d93e5834d5969886f","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T10:17:36.345Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q147d93e5834d5969886f"},{"id":"qbb738d9a7f5922a9f6de","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T10:20:18.603Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbb738d9a7f5922a9f6de"}],"parent_message":null}