{"id":"qc188987b90e72df3972f","batch_id":"batch-000153","seq":190,"speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-27T12:15:16.267Z","text":"858的没收 8.9m money judgement，到底proceeds和joint 怎么分，检方也[屏蔽词]了现在","text_en":null,"edited":true,"reply_to":"q406e9232127b916a817b","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc188987b90e72df3972f","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q406e9232127b916a817b","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000153","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc188987b90e72df3972f","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc188987b90e72df3972f/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/qc188987b90e72df3972f","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qfe98f5e0d8f043a8e9d4","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:13:16.944Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qfe98f5e0d8f043a8e9d4"},{"id":"q4d569697dea8c1dfbed6","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:13:39.928Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q4d569697dea8c1dfbed6"},{"id":"qa607dfdedfa4b86a7c9f","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:13:59.367Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa607dfdedfa4b86a7c9f"},{"id":"q23d409f35f38d107787e","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:16:42.527Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q23d409f35f38d107787e"},{"id":"q9db16dd56ce3ab7bd882","speaker":"beg***","date":"2026-08-27T12:18:56.185Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q9db16dd56ce3ab7bd882"},{"id":"qbf053ad48de107d41e32","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T12:20:16.361Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qbf053ad48de107d41e32"}],"parent_message":{"id":"q406e9232127b916a817b","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-27T11:52:00.581Z","text":"为什么这次比以前发现更重要。 Dkt.803（2026年2月17日）政府自己把控制标准写成：资金必须在某时点处于被告 control 之下；Rajaratnam之所以算“obtained”，是因为他有 “authority over disbursements”；Peters也是因为公司收到的钱实际上由个人控制。 但政府接下来证明郭“Boss controlling all entities/assets”的脚注，对HEX只拿出：郭说自己设计H Coin、Brown这个CEO没有控制，以及HEX的钱曾经贷给郭；它没有拿出郭是HEX银行authorized signer、UBO、100% shareholder，或者郭能直接发wire的证据。相反，政府自己2022年的银行证据恰好把这些最接近“authority over disbursements”的指标全部放在Je身上。\n    这就形成一个比“Je运营HEX”更精准的冲突：\n    803要求证明：谁对disbursement有authority。\n    716银行证据回答：HEX核心账户的authorized signer / UBO / 100% owner = Je。\n    858却最终把HEX约$517m gross inflows整体归入郭个人$889m forfeiture。\n    更醒目的是，同一份716-5对 G Club 也没有把郭列成Mercantile账户签字人——Target Account-1的authorized signer是Financial Controller Alex。 所以现在至少从账户层来看，政府自己的原始证据并不支持一个简单的“郭本人签字控制所有实体银行账户”的模型。\n* 涉及哪一层。 对 Count 11（HEX wire fraud conviction），这个材料并不能证明郭没有参与诈骗；promotional statements、H Coin设计、37m yacht transaction和共谋证据仍然存在，所以我只给 ★★★☆☆。对 Count One RICO同理，“ultimate leader”不要求本人逐笔签wire。可是对 858个人money judgment、特别是HEX约$517m是否属于郭“obtained/control”，我给 ★★★★★。它直接打的是Honeycutt/Contorinis/Peters意义上的个人取得，而不是第三方产权。对 HEX/ACA alter ego和derivative orders也是 ★★★★★，因为银行KYC、正式UBO和签字权是比Boss称呼更具体的法人/财务控制证据。","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q406e9232127b916a817b"}}