{"id":"qc61288edfa3a3b25d949","batch_id":"batch-000151","seq":197,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T09:11:47.643Z","text":"所以我现在把Robert的话重新整理成一个不会混淆的中文版本：\n\n858解决的是郭个人最终应承担多少money judgment——约8.89亿美元。\n\nSpecific Property清单解决的是政府目前具体扣到/识别了哪些资产，并主张这些资产属于郭有罪counts的proceeds或Count 3 laundering property。\n\n具体财产最终没收以后用于冲抵这8.89亿美元。\n\n如果依法应没收的钱追不回来，在§853(p)条件满足时，政府还可以追郭本人的substitute assets。\n\n王的情况也要分开：她的具体个人财产权益到底有多少，和她所签署的整个forfeiture order/money judgment范围不是同一个数字。\n\n这一点Robert批评得有道理：以后我会始终用“金钱判决（money judgment）”“列明具体财产（specific property）”“最终没收（final forfeiture）”“替代资产（substitute assets）”四个词分开说，不再笼统叫‘个人资产没收令’。\n\n至于他说“859里specific property一共只有六亿多”，这个数字现在值得我们下一步直接核原始清单，我不想靠印象答。只要把859原件拿出来，我们可以把每个账户逐项相加，看看究竟是6亿多还是别的数字，并同时区分哪些是郭的right/title/interest、哪些还受第三方§853(n)约束。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":"q58d641fd23c753b25148","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc61288edfa3a3b25d949","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q58d641fd23c753b25148","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000151","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000151","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc61288edfa3a3b25d949","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc61288edfa3a3b25d949/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/qc61288edfa3a3b25d949","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"qb11c5759cbcb80f045c3","speaker":"ken***","date":"2026-08-25T09:06:05.360Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb11c5759cbcb80f045c3"},{"id":"q58d641fd23c753b25148","speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T09:08:41.174Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q58d641fd23c753b25148"},{"id":"q20cec6427c7be93980ce","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T09:09:35.582Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q20cec6427c7be93980ce"},{"id":"qb5ecac4e5a5df53cabe5","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T09:16:07.299Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qb5ecac4e5a5df53cabe5"},{"id":"q681458b3479ca061c6ea","speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T09:16:37.293Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q681458b3479ca061c6ea"},{"id":"q247a7ba7cee3334d8db8","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T09:16:46.023Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q247a7ba7cee3334d8db8"}],"parent_message":{"id":"q58d641fd23c753b25148","speaker":"reb***","date":"2026-08-25T09:08:41.174Z","text":"是你不准确。你们ai自己有时也会把没收清单里列明的财产，可没收性，金钱判决，等概念没有用汉语说清楚。对王的个人资产没收就是只有几百万且应该是政府拿到了这几百万。对郭的个人资产没收令是8.89亿，如果犯罪所得在尽最大努力后没有追缴回来，可以用郭本人的其它本来的个人资产来填充，对郭的个人资产没收令是文件858，对G enterprise 的补充初步没收令，是859，具体没收清单里的财产，是列在859里，一共只有6个多亿。","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q58d641fd23c753b25148"}}