{"id":"qebb00e099459577fe9fd","batch_id":"batch-000149","seq":62,"speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-20T15:04:07.481Z","text":"马瓦这里又提到了最终没收， ［用户 roy***］ 这AI的幻觉比较严重啊，以后最好让它列出引用的源头，比如文件编号啥的，别让它给咱们洗脑了","text_en":null,"edited":true,"reply_to":"q940a91e859d816a7888e","reply_status":"available","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qebb00e099459577fe9fd","reply_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q940a91e859d816a7888e","reply_label":"查看被回复的发言（跨批次）","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000149","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000149","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qebb00e099459577fe9fd","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qebb00e099459577fe9fd/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/qebb00e099459577fe9fd","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q89d8cc2700838863fe42","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T14:57:50.337Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q89d8cc2700838863fe42"},{"id":"q57952647103252f3550a","speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-20T15:00:56.253Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q57952647103252f3550a"},{"id":"q60ab1df2583ff31fc977","speaker":"joh***","date":"2026-08-20T15:02:19.360Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q60ab1df2583ff31fc977"},{"id":"q1cdee11a6a8f808440b7","speaker":"ntp***","date":"2026-08-20T15:15:47.011Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q1cdee11a6a8f808440b7"},{"id":"q71d877c2c25eb8c0e437","speaker":"him***","date":"2026-08-20T15:16:48.861Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q71d877c2c25eb8c0e437"},{"id":"qedc7fc065c68abdd7e6b","speaker":"kir***","date":"2026-08-20T15:17:21.815Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qedc7fc065c68abdd7e6b"}],"parent_message":{"id":"q940a91e859d816a7888e","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-20T05:30:11.267Z","text":"当时政府不是说：\n\n“Mahwah已经通过最终forfeiture判决归美国政府所有，所以政府现在把它分给Luc。”\n\n而更像是：\n\n政府已经在刑事indictment中把Mahwah列为可没收目标，并主张它系犯罪所得；Luc则在破产案里独立主张郭才是Taurus和Mahwah的equitable owner。因此两边为了避免彼此争夺、重复诉讼和资产贬损，先通过settlement协调谁先控制、谁先卖、费用怎么付、最后销售款怎么分。\n\n这就是政府当时能够解释其权限的主要逻辑。\n\n真正值得你注意的是Taurus本身的产权问题。\n\n公开判决确认，title holder是 Taurus Fund LLC，而Luc必须通过adversary proceeding去证明：\n\n郭是Mahwah的beneficial/equitable owner → Taurus是郭的alter ego → 因而Mahwah属于郭的bankruptcy estate。\n\n也就是说，至少在Luc起诉之初：\n\n“Mahwah就是郭的财产”并不是已经裁判确定的事实。\n\nLuc自己还需要打官司证明。\n\n与此同时，政府又在刑事案里主张：\n\nMahwah是郭用fraud proceeds购买，因此未来应当forfeit。\n\n所以出现了一个很有意思的结构：\n\nTaurus拥有名义产权\n↓\nLuc说Taurus实际上是郭的alter ego，所以资产属于estate\n↓\n政府说郭用犯罪所得买了Mahwah，所以资产属于刑事forfeiture范围\n↓\nLuc和政府在这两个基础都还没有最终完成司法裁判时，就先达成协调协议。\n\n这并不意味着那个和解当然违法。Rule 9019本来就允许破产受托人为解决不确定性和诉讼风险而settle；政府也可以围绕已被刑事indictment列为forfeiture property的资产采取保全、协调立场。\n\n但是，从你们现在研究5739、26-1853以及第三方产权的角度，这个历史非常重要。\n\n因为它证明一件事：\n\nLuc—Government的资产合作并不是2026年最终forfeiture之后才开始。早在2023年，在产权、alter ego以及最终刑事forfeiture都尚未完成裁判时，两边已经开始协调同一批资产。\n\n而这就产生一个非常值得研究的问题：","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q940a91e859d816a7888e"}}