{"id":"qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","batch_id":"batch-000152","seq":10,"speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:48:59.353Z","text":"继续往下挖，这一轮我觉得真正出现了一个比前面“14亿→13亿→8.89亿”更像二巡法律问题的连接点：Second Circuit 对“personally obtained proceeds”和joint-and-several forfeiture本身有非常明确的限制，而王488、郭720/858偏偏把不同法律性质的金额混在一个总数里，却没有公开量化各自组成。\n\n先看王自己的Dkt.469。她律师已经正式指出：王认罪时同意约 $1.4B forfeiture，但郭庭审时政府专家只核算出约 $1.3B总流入到GTV、Farm Loans、G Clubs、HEX。律师明确说这约1亿美元差额会对王产生真实影响；还指出Je控制公司净流入约 $550M，郭family offices/family约 $100M，而王本人只是拿数十万美元级薪资，却可能最后面对巨额substitute-assets执行。\n\n这已经把一个关键事实钉死：\n\nGXZ26的13亿是enterprise-level aggregate inflows；它不是“Wang personally obtained $1.3B”的证明。\n\n而王488的法律文字却把她14亿中的第一部分定义成：\n\nCount One proceeds that Wang personally obtained\n\n另一部分才是：\n\nCount Two money-laundering property，与Guo在一定范围内joint and several。\n\n所以现在出现了一个非常实质的问题：14亿中到底有多少属于“Wang personally obtained”？\n\n⸻\n\n更关键的是，Second Circuit自己的判例让这个问题不能随便糊过去。\n\n2019年的 United States v. Tanner 里，二巡解释 Honeycutt：共同被告可以对同一笔犯罪所得承担没收责任，前提是每个人实际上都曾经取得/控制过那笔钱；不能因为只是共谋者，就让一个从未取得那笔钱的人替别人承担全部proceeds。二巡强调，如果两个共谋者都实际acquired full proceeds，则可以各自承担相应没收责任。\n\n更重要的是，二巡2025年的 United States v. Elias 又把 Honeycutt 的逻辑明确扩展到 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(1)(C)：对于“proceeds”型没收，被告不能因为别的共谋者拿到了钱，就自动被要求没收自己从未取得的那部分；法院必须关注这个被告自己到底“obtained/acquired”了什么。\n\n这对郭720特别重要，因为720的第一部分正是依据：\n\nCounts 1、2、4、7–11的proceeds that Guo personally obtained\n\n来组成money judgment。 gov.uscourts.nysd.595325.720.0.pdf\n\n所以如果政府只是拿：\n\nGXZ26显示整个G Enterprise账户网络流入13亿\n\n然后跳到：\n\n郭personally obtained这13亿中的全部相关proceeds，\n\n这个跳跃在二巡法下不是自动成立的。","text_en":null,"edited":false,"reply_to":null,"reply_status":"none","has_attachment":false,"url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","reply_url":null,"reply_label":"","batch_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","batch_canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/batches/batch-000152","notice":"围绕郭文贵案的社区讨论与观点交锋。发言仅代表讨论者观点，不等同于法院认定。","content_type":"discussion_message","canonical_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","markdown_url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710/markdown","json_url":"https://mubeitech.com/api/discussion-messages/qf89b9bd4ae622cbde710","surrounding_messages":[{"id":"q509e388c34aca351ea2b","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:43:40.773Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q509e388c34aca351ea2b"},{"id":"qa06ca3ff3be113d82820","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:46:17.990Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qa06ca3ff3be113d82820"},{"id":"qecf9db2881a0ac29af62","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:46:40.904Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qecf9db2881a0ac29af62"},{"id":"q01aee57f5e613a922809","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:49:23.166Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/q01aee57f5e613a922809"},{"id":"qc635b055cd82019d118c","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:50:34.312Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qc635b055cd82019d118c"},{"id":"qd9a817f9d0e908d6d16a","speaker":"roy***","date":"2026-08-25T10:50:47.975Z","url":"https://mubeitech.com/discussions/messages/qd9a817f9d0e908d6d16a"}],"parent_message":null}