--- type: court_doc id: "court_ctb_2032_3" court: "CTB" case_no: "22-50073" doc_number: 2032 doc_type: "EXHIBIT" filed_date: "2023-07-25" lang: "zh" url: "https://mubeitech.com/court/court_ctb_2032_3" json_url: "https://mubeitech.com/api/court/court_ctb_2032_3" --- # Exhibit 3 | 168
L4MKEAS1 > 原始法庭文件为英文；下方为英文全文，顶部为中文摘要。 ## **Exhibit 3** | 168
L4MKEAS1 | | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|----------------------------------| | UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
------------------------------x | | | EASTERN PROFIT CORPORATION
LIMITED, | | | Plaintiff, | | | v. | 18 CV 2185 (LJL) | | STRATEGIC VISION US LLC, | | | Defendant. | | | ------------------------------x | | | | New York, N.Y.
April 22, 2021 | | | 9:37 a.m. | | Before: | | | | HON. LEWIS J. LIMAN, | | | District Judge | | | APPEARANCES | | TROUTMAN PEPPER HAMILTON SANDERS LLP
Attorneys for Plaintiff
BY:
CHRISTOPHER B. CHUFF
JOANNA J. CLINE | | | GRAVES GARRETT LLC | | | Attorneys for Defendant
BY:
EDWARD DEAN GREIM | | | JENNIFER A. DONNELLI | | | ALSO PRESENT: | | | MELISSA FRANCIS, Eastern Profit Corporation Limited
J. MICHAEL WALLER, Strategic Vision US LLC | | | | | | UNA WILKINSON, Mandarin Interpreter
LENNY YANG, Check Mandarin Interpreter | | | JOSHUA KLEIN, Attorney for Mr. Guo
PETRILLO, KLEIN & BOXER, LLP | | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | (Trial resumed) | | 2 | THE COURT:
Good morning. | | 3 | A couple of preliminary items: | | 4 | First, I received an email -- actually, two emails | | 5 | last night from somebody informing the Court that the | | 6 | proceedings here were being rebroadcast.
First of all, I want | | 7 | to ask the two counsel whether they are aware of who's doing | | 8 | this.
Apparently, they were being rebroadcast on YouTube. | | 9 | Ms. Cline, do you know anything about that? | | 10 | MS. CLINE:
I do not, your Honor. | | 11 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim, do you know anything? | | 12 | MR. GREIM:
No, no, your Honor. | | 13 | THE COURT:
I'm issuing an order this morning that is | | 14 | reminding all parties and all participants in this proceeding, | | 15 | and all attendees, whether they are attending in person or are | | 16 | attending virtually, remotely, that any rebroadcast or | | 17 | retransmission of these proceedings is a violation of the court | | 18 | order.
It can be punished, and will be punished, by civil or | | 19 | criminal contempt.
That's a warning to anybody who might be | | 20 | listening to these proceedings.
It also will be placed on the | | 21 | Court's docket. | | 22 | Second, I've got an objection by the defense to PX 11. | | 23 | The objection is overruled, and the exhibit will be received, | | 24 | largely for the reasons stated by Ms. Cline in her letter.
The | | 25 | question of whether the document is authentic and whether | L4MKEAS1 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there's sufficient evidence, more particularly, the question of whether there is sufficient evidence for a finder of fact to determine that the document is authentic is different from the question of whether I, as the finder of fact, will determine that the document is authentic. 1 2 3 4 5 I find that the plaintiff has sufficiently established that the document is authentic for purposes of it being received into evidence. My ruling should not be understood to reflect a prejudgment as to whether the document is an authentic loan agreement or not; that is an issue that I presume I will address when it comes to the findings of fact. Anything else from the plaintiff before we get started? MS. CLINE: Yes, your Honor. I was just wondering if you might do a time check just for expectation setting purposes? THE COURT: I'll give you that information. Anything from defendant? MR. GREIM: Your Honor, just some housekeeping. Exhibit DX 48, the substitution of counsel document was used with Han Chunguang yesterday. We didn't move it in, but we just wanted to do that this morning. We've conferred with plaintiff's counsel and understand that there's no objection. THE COURT: Is that right? MS. CLINE: Yes, your Honor. |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | THE COURT:
DX 48 is received. | | 2 | (Defendant's Exhibit 48 received in evidence) | | 3 | THE COURT:
Anything else? | | 4 | MR. GREIM:
That's all, your Honor. | | 5 | THE COURT:
I'll give you the updated time amount. | | 6 | For Eastern, Eastern has used six hours and 49 | | 7 | minutes.
For Strategic, Strategic has used nine hours and 29 | | 8 | minutes.
It appears that we are coming to the end of the | | 9 | allotted time for each counsel.
When we approach the end, I'll | | 10 | hear counsel with respect to whether an extension is | | 11 | appropriate.
My intention is to run all day today.
I'll | | 12 | address the issue with respect to Ms. Wang after the testimony | | 13 | is over today, and also to finish today. | | 14 | Anything else? | | 15 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, I would just say we fully | | 16 | anticipate being able to finish today with hours to spare. | | 17 | THE COURT:
Good. | | 18 | Mr. Guo, good morning. | | 19 | THE WITNESS:
Good morning, your Honor. | | 20 | THE COURT:
You're reminded that you are still under | | 21 | oath, sir. | | 22 | THE WITNESS:
Yes, your Honor. | | 23 | THE COURT:
Counsel, you may inquire. | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | GUO WENGUI, | | 2 | CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED | | 3 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 4 | Mr. Guo, I'm going to show you what we've marked as
Q. | | 5 | Exhibit 41.
This is a Wall Street Journal article that was | | 6 | written on July 22nd, 2019, about this very case, and I'll tell | | 7 | you this is one of the articles that form the basis for your | | 8 | own lawsuit against Strategic Vision. | | 9 | Do you recall that? | | 10 | MS. CLINE:
Objection, your Honor.
At least the | | 11 | document that I'm seeing is in English.
I'm not certain that | | 12 | the witness can read it.
It's also been excluded, I believe. | | 13 | THE COURT:
Your objection is overruled.
It's not | | 14 | being offered, as far as I understand. | | 15 | Is that correct, Mr. Greim, you're not offering it at | | 16 | this time? | | 17 | MR. GREIM:
We are not, your Honor. | | 18 | THE COURT:
The objection is overruled. | | 19 | MR. GREIM:
If you could scroll down to -- | | 20 | MS. CLINE:
Your Honor, objection as to the language | | 21 | issue, though, as well.
It's in English. | | 22 | THE COURT:
I assume that Mr. Greim will figure out a | | 23 | way to show it to the witness either with him reading it in | | 24 | English or it being translated. | | 25 | MR. GREIM:
Yes, that's what we'll do.
We'll use our | | | | | | 168
L4MKEAS1
Guo - Cross | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | translator we have right here with us to do that. | | 2 | THE COURT:
Mr. Guo, do you read any English? | | 3 | THE WITNESS:
(In English) No. | | 4 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 5 | Q.
Did you have a lawyer named Daniel Podhaskie? | | 6 | A.
Yes. | | 7 | Q.
And he was also the general counsel for Golden Spring | | 8 | New York? | | 9 | A.
What I wanted to say, actually, is that he's | | 10 | Golden Spring's lawyer. | | 11 | Q.
And do you see -- and Golden Spring New York is your family | | 12 | office, correct? | | 13 | A.
So, I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 14 | Q.
Does Golden Spring's lawyer make statements on your behalf? | | 15 | A.
Yes. | | 16 | Q.
And do you recall Mr. Podhaskie stating on your behalf, in | | 17 | response to the lawsuit, "Mr. Guo is the most wanted dissident | | 18 | worldwide by the Chinese Communist Party and has been their | | 19 | most outspoken and vitriolic critic since his arrival in the | | 20 | United States"? | | 21 | Do you recall that? | | 22 | A.
Well, I don't know what is written in the article.
I only | | 23 | heard the interpreter interpreting, but I know what that says. | | 24 | Q.
My question is whether you recall that Mr. Podhaskie made | | 25 | that remark? | | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
I don't recall. | | 2 | Q.
Let's go up a few more paragraphs. | | 3 | MR. GREIM:
I would ask the interpreter to read the | | 4 | highlighted section, and I'm going to tell Mr. Guo that the | | 5 | interpreter is reading from this article.
She's going to read | | 6 | to you in your language. | | | | | 7 | THE INTERPRETER:
I can read? | | 8 | (Pause) | | 9 | MR. GREIM:
There is no pending question yet. | | 10 | THE INTERPRETER:
Hang on. | | 11 | (Pause) | | 12 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim, let me suggest to you, I | | 13 | appreciate the way you're trying to do it economically, but for | | 14 | the purposes of a record, you either will have to read that | | 15 | language out loud, or, alternatively, and assuming your | | 16 | adversary agrees, you can mark up the exhibit and just put an A | | 17 | next to it as what was read, and then that marked-up exhibit | | 18 | will be the exhibit you use. | | 19 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, I think I'll read it, just so | | 20 | we can read the transcript and understand it. | | 21 | THE COURT:
Okay. | | 22 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 23 | Q.
The section that the translator read is:
"Mr. Podhaskie | | 24 | said in his statement that 'Certain of Mr. Guo's assets in | | 25 | China, valued at approximately USD \$30 billion, have been sold | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | for pennies on the dollar' by Chinese Communist Party officials | | 2 | and that Mr. Guo 'has never taken a penny out of China or | | 3 | Hong Kong since he began speaking out' against them." | | 4 | Now, my question to you, Mr. Guo, is whether | | 5 | Mr. Podhaskie made that statement on your behalf? | | 6 | A.
I am invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 7 | Q.
Now, Mr. Guo, it's true, is it not, that you have alleged | | 8 | the CCP retaliated against you by freezing your assets in | | 9 | Hong Kong and on the Mainland? | | 10 | THE INTERPRETER:
So let me interpret first. | | 11 | MR. KLEIN:
Yes. | | 12 | THE WITNESS:
I am invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 13 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 14 | Q.
In fact, Mr. Guo, your claim that you have not taken a | | 15 | penny out of China or Hong Kong since you began speaking out is | | 16 | central to your claim for being a dissident, isn't it? | | 17 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 18 | Q.
And, further, you told Dr. Waller and Ms. Wallop, when you | | 19 | met with them in the fall of 2017, that you had not been able | | 20 | to take a penny out of China or Hong Kong since you began | | 21 | speaking out as a dissident, correct? | | 22 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 23 | MR. GREIM:
I'm now going to read the very last quote | | 24 | in this article, and after I read it for the record, I will ask | | 25 | the translator to translate what you view on this to the | L4MKEAS1 Guo - Cross 168 witness. Okay? THE COURT: No. I think the right way to do it is for the translator to translate what you're saying, Mr. Greim. So you'll have to take it in pieces, let the translator translate what you're saying, and then you'll lead up to the question. MR. GREIM: Well, your Honor, the only thing is I wanted to make a record that the translator was not necessarily saying what I'm saying, but she's actually reading what she sees on the page. THE COURT: You'll read what you see on the page, and then the translator will translate that. MR. GREIM: So we'll do it twice, she'll translate what I say, and then she'll also read off the page to the witness? Because it seems that the translation, if the -- if the question is what does the document say -- THE COURT: That's fine for you proceed the way you had intended. MR. GREIM: Okay. BY MR. GREIM: Q. The document says: "Mr. Podhaskie denied those allegations and said Messrs. Guo and Bannon 'have a joint mission in regards to China,' which is to 'get rid of the radical cadre inside the Communist Party.'" And you agree with what Mr. Podhaskie said, don't you? A. I don't recall. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | Q.
And was -- I'm asking today if he agrees with it. | | 2 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, can I be heard? | | 3 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 4 | MR. KLEIN:
To the extent that Mr. Guo is being asked | | 5 | whether he agrees with the comment that he and Mr. Bannon have | | 6 | a joint mission in regards to China, which is to get rid of the | | 7 | radical cadre inside the Communist Party, I don't have any | | 8 | issue with him responding to that.
To the extent the question | | 9 | is whether he agrees that Mr. Podhaskie denied those | | 10 | allegations, I'm not sure what that refers to. | | 11 | THE COURT:
Why don't you reask the question, counsel. | | 12 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 13 | Q.
Mr. Guo, do you agree with Mr. Podhaskie's statement that | | 14 | you and Mr. Bannon "have a joint mission in regards to China," | | 15 | which is to "get rid of the radical cadre inside the Communist | | 16 | Party"? | | 17 | THE COURT:
No, let me ask the question a somewhat | | 18 | different way. | | 19 | Mr. Guo, do you agree with the statement that you and | | 20 | Mr. Bannon have a joint mission in regard to China, which is to | | 21 | get rid of the radical cadre inside the Communist Party? | | 22 | THE WITNESS:
I don't altogether agree. | | 23 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 24 | Q.
Do you agree that Mr. Podhaskie was speaking on your behalf | | 25 | when he made those remarks to the Wall Street Journal? | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | THE COURT:
Do you want to consult, counsel? | | 2 | MR. KLEIN:
I just have a question as to whether the | | 3 | question being posed is whether he made the remarks, meaning | | 4 | specifically what's in quotations? | | 5 | MR. GREIM:
Yes.
I'll rephrase. | | 6 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 7 | Q.
Do you agree that Mr. Podhaskie was speaking on your behalf | | 8 | when he said that you and Mr. Bannon have a joint mission in | | 9 | regards to China, which is to get rid of the radical cadre | | 10 | inside the Communist Party? | | 11 | A.
I don't recall. | | 12 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you just testified yesterday, did you not, that | | 13 | over 99 percent of the Communist Party members are decent | | 14 | people? | | 15 | A.
Yes, I recall. | | 16 | Q.
In fact, I think you might have said 99.99 percent; is that | | 17 | right? | | 18 | A.
I actually don't recall whether I said 99 percent or | | 19 | 99.9 percent. | | 20 | Q.
Well, because we have so many people in that party, let me | | 21 | ask you:
Do you believe that 99.99 percent of the members of | | 22 | the Chinese Communist Party are decent people? | | 23 | A.
No. | | 24 | Q.
Okay.
So closer to 99 percent, then? | | 25 | I don't know.
A. | | | | L4MKEAS1 Guo - Cross 168 | 1 | Well, the thing is that I really cannot measure it | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------| | 2 | with mathematics.
Every day, our mantra was to take down the | | 3 | CCP and change the structure.
I just cannot quantify that. | | 4 | Q.
Mr. Guo, when were your Hong Kong assets frozen? | | 5 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, counsel. | | 6 | MR. GREIM:
I'm sorry. | | 7 | THE INTERPRETER:
Yes. | | 8 | THE WITNESS:
It is only an adjective that I use. | | 9 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 10 | Q.
Mr. Guo, when were your Hong Kong assets frozen? | | 11 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 12 | Q.
Were your Hong Kong assets frozen? | | 13 | THE INTERPRETER:
Pardon, counsel? | | 14 | Were your Hong Kong assets frozen?
Q. | | 15 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 16 | Q.
Mr. Guo, I'm going to show you two exhibits.
One is in | | 17 | English with some Chinese characters, and the other one is -- | | 18 | let's see, I thought we had it translated -- and the other one | | 19 | is translated. | | 20 | The first document we are displaying is D-126B, and | | 21 | then halfway through, the same document has been translated | | 22 | into Chinese characters. | | 23 | Now, Mr. Guo, I will represent to you that the first | | 24 | document, which was not translated, was filed in this case by | | 25 | counsel for Eastern Profit, and Eastern Profit stated, in this | | | | 6 7 8 9 10 13 25 ### L4MKEAS1 Guo - Cross 168 case, in the letter that it attached to this document, that the assets of Mr. Guo and Eastern Profit that had been frozen in Hong Kong were frozen not by the CCP or Mainland China, but by the High Court of Hong Kong (see Exhibit B). This is on Exhibit 126, the main document. 1 2 3 4 5 And we've also had that section that was read to you translated into Mandarin, and it's highlighted on the screen that you see before you, which is the second half of Exhibit 126. It's down at page 5 of the document, and it's the last two paragraphs. Could you take a moment to read that section to yourself, Mr. Guo. 11 12 ## (Pause) A. I finished reading it, but I actually don't quite understand, but I'm also invoking the Fifth Amendment. Q. Well, I don't have a pending question yet, but let me make a record and ask you: Do you agree with Eastern Profit's counsel that your assets were frozen in Hong Kong, not by the CCP or Mainland China, but by the High Court of Hong Kong? A. I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. Q. Now, Mr. Guo, do you understand that Eastern Profit's position in this case is actually being handled by Golden Spring New York under a power of attorney? 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. 24 Q. Do you exercise control over Golden Spring New York, |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | Mr. Guo? | | 2 | I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment.
A. | | 3 | Q.
Do you exercise control over Eastern Profit's conduct of | | 4 | this litigation, Mr. Guo? | | 5 | A.
I am invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 6 | Q.
Now, Mr. Guo, you've given many interviews to Mirror Media, | | 7 | also called Mingjing, before, haven't you? | | 8 | Yes.
A. | | 9 | Q.
On an interview in August of 2017, you told the Mirror | | 10 | Media host that your Hong Kong assets had been frozen, didn't | | 11 | you? | | 12 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 13 | Q.
Before we move on, let's go back to the very first page of | | 14 | the Chinese version of 126B, which is the order itself. | | 15 | There's a line for R1, Respondent 1.
Do you see your | | 16 | name there? | | 17 | A.
You mean Chinese version or English version? | | 18 | Q.
I'm asking you to look at the version you can understand, | | 19 | so I'm asking you -- I presume it's the Chinese version. | | 20 | A.
What's the question again, counsel? | | 21 | Q.
The question is:
Do you see your name in the first line as | | 22 | Respondent 1? | | 23 | Yes.
A. | | 24 | Q.
And do you recall being served with an order from the High | | 25 | Court of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region? | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 2 | Q.
Were you served with this order? | | 3 | MR. KLEIN:
Can I confer for a moment? | | 4 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 5 | (Pause) | | 6 | THE COURT:
I think the record should reflect that the | | 7 | witness is conferring with his personal counsel. | | 8 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, may I address the Court in a | | 9 | way that won't be translated by the interpreter while she's | | 10 | occupied? | | 11 | THE COURT:
Any objection to that? | | 12 | MS. CLINE:
Yes, actually.
I think the witness should | | 13 | be able to hear what's going to be said. | | 14 | THE COURT:
I could hear you up at sidebar, so why not | | 15 | hear you just within the safer way.
I'll hear you, counsel, | | 16 | and I'll determine, after I hear you, whether it's something | | 17 | that the witness should be informed of. | | 18 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, one thing we've considered | | 19 | with respect to this invocation of the Fifth Amendment, | | 20 | obviously, we didn't know exactly what topics would trigger it | | 21 | beforehand, but it's seemingly covering some core issues for us | | 22 | in this case.
And so in a civil case, we would be asking for | | 23 | an adverse inference.
Of course, the question is establishing | | 24 | agency for the opposing party, but even the questions that go | | 25 | to agency are also having the Fifth Amendment invoked. | L4MKEAS1 Guo - Cross 168 And so I just want to make sure I do everything I can here today, while we still have Mr. Guo, to lay that foundation. And I wonder if there could be some investigation of exactly what the proceeding is or what the threat is that is causing this, so that if the invocation of the Constitution can be tailored more precisely, we may be able to lay some more of that foundation. THE COURT: I'll think about that request, but, meanwhile, you should ask your questions, and we'll take it piece by piece. MR. GREIM: Thank you, your Honor. MS. CLINE: Your Honor, if I may? THE COURT: Yes. MS. CLINE: My understanding is that Strategic's time has just expired. THE COURT: Do you have an application to extend time? MR. GREIM: Your Honor, frankly, I thought the application would apply if we got to the end of the day, but I'm prepared to apply right here. I'm about a third of my way into my cross. We haven't been able to put on our case yet with our witness. We will have plenty of time to get done today. I don't think I've been wasting time. I've been trying to focus on the issues in the case. THE COURT: So, I'll grant the application to extend the time because I think you haven't been wasting time, for the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ### L4MKEAS1 Guo - Cross 168 most part, and you have been confronted by witnesses who have denied things that they said in their deposition, forcing you to confront them with their deposition testimony. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 21 25 So, you may proceed. MR. KLEIN: Your Honor, after conferring with Mr. Guo, my understanding is he's prepared to answer the last question regarding whether he was served with this document. THE COURT: Very well. Thank you, Mr. Klein. MR. GREIM: Okay. BY MR. GREIM: Q. Could I ask for an answer, then, to that question? A. Well, actually, I have never received any of such documents, certainly by the Hong Kong High Court, but, however, I have seen hundreds -- 150 different kinds of such documents online purportedly charging me of being rapist, being killer, and being gangster, but I have never seen an official paper from the High Court. Q. And, Mr. Guo, in fact, you told Dr. Waller and Ms. Wallop that your assets in Hong Kong had been frozen, didn't you? A. I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. 18 19 20 Q. Let's move forward here, Mr. Guo. Since 2017, since you've been in the U.S., have you been engaged in any kind of business or occupation for profit? A. I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. 22 23 24 MR. GREIM: I'm going to ask that we pull up |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Exhibit 51, which I believe has also been translated.
And | | 2 | let's go to the translated version. | | 3 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 4 | Actually, I'm going to first show you, Mr. Guo, the first
Q. | | 5 | half of this document, and you will see it's a two-page | | 6 | declaration. | | 7 | MR. GREIM:
And let's scroll to the bottom, if we | | 8 | could, to the signature. | | 9 | Q.
Is this your signature, Mr. Guo? | | 10 | A.
It looks like my signature. | | 11 | Q.
Okay. | | 12 | MR. GREIM:
Let's stick with the Chinese version, | | 13 | please.
Scroll to the top, if you could. | | 14 | Q.
Now, do you recognize this as an affidavit or a declaration | | 15 | that you filed in a lawsuit against someone named Hongkuan Li? | | 16 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, did you sue Hongkuan Li in the U.S. District Court | | 18 | for the District of Maryland? | | 19 | Yes.
A. | | 20 | Q.
Did you file a declaration in support of your lawsuit? | | 21 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 22 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, I'm not entirely sure the | | 23 | Fifth Amendment protects anyone from testifying as to whether | | 24 | they made a public filing. | | 25 | THE COURT:
I will hear, at first, a proffer from | | | | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ### L4MKEAS1 Guo - Cross 168 Mr. Klein as to the good-faith basis for the exercise of the Fifth Amendment with respect to these questions, and then we'll decide whether to permit examination. MR. KLEIN: Your Honor, I think -- I don't have a comprehensive understanding of the circumstances surrounding the filing of documents in other lawsuits that I wasn't involved in. I don't know the precise involvement of my client, I don't know the full context, and to the extent that he's being asked whether he filed particular documents that are speaking documents, that could be construed potentially as an admission to certain things, it could be construed with regard to the extent of his participation or his intent. I just don't have enough information to understand the context surrounding these documents. If I had more information, or if the question were perhaps -- there are certain questions that I think he could answer, to the extent that he has personal knowledge, but I don't even know what he recollects about these documents, or what he knows about these documents, or the circumstances surrounding the creation and filing of those documents, and I have not had time to consider what potential implications there are, your Honor. THE COURT: Let me ask counsel a question. First, Mr. Greim are you simply trying to establish a foundation for admitting this document? 23 24 25 |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | MR. GREIM:
I am. | | 2 | THE COURT:
Is there any objection by Eastern as to | | | | | 3 | the admissibility of DX 51 as a statement of Mr. Guo? | | 4 | MS. CLINE:
May I consult with Mr. Klein?
I | | 5 | apologize, your Honor. | | 6 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 7 | (Pause) | | 8 | MS. CLINE:
So, on behalf of Eastern, I can say that | | 9 | we do not object to its admission. | | 10 | THE COURT:
Okay. | | 11 | Then DX 51 is received as a statement, prior | | 12 | statement, of Mr. Guo. | | 13 | (Defendant's Exhibit 51 received in evidence) | | 14 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 15 | Q.
Mr. Guo, did you accuse Hongkuan Li of defaming you? | | 16 | A.
Yes. | | 17 | Q.
What was the defamatory statement? | | 18 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, may I confer? | | 19 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 20 | (Pause) | | 21 | THE COURT:
Does the witness need the question back? | | 22 | THE WITNESS:
(In English)
Yes, your Honor. | | 23 | THE COURT:
Could the court reporter read back the | | 24 | question. | | 25 | (Record read) | | | | L4MKEAS1 Guo - Cross 168 THE WITNESS: (Through Interpreter) I don't need the readback. I can answer the question. 1 2 | 3 | Well, it is because Hongkuan, on YouTube, over the | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 4 | YouTube channel, over 600 times in his broadcasting talking | | 5 | about raping my wife, my daughter, my mother and insulting them | | 6 | with words, so that I don't want to go into that, but then I | | 7 | need to invoke the Fifth Amendment, but if you have questions, | | 8 | I'll answer them. | | 9 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 10 | Q.
And so your argument in that case, Mr. Guo, was that that | | 11 | cost you business in Hong Kong and on the Mainland, correct? | | 12 | A.
I'm invoking the protection of the Fifth Amendment. | | 13 | Q.
And you claim that you actually expected another year of | | 14 | work into the year 2019; is that correct? | | 15 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, I didn't get your question. | | 16 | Q.
And you argued that the conduct by Mr. Li cost you another | | 17 | year of work into 2019, correct? | | 18 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 19 | Q.
Who was the person at ACA who conferred with you about the | | 20 | Li posts? | | 21 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 22 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you, in fact, were receiving funds through China | | 23 | Golden Spring in 2017 and 2018 for work in Hong Kong and on the | | 24 | Mainland, correct? | | 25 | A.
I'm invoked the Fifth Amendment. | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
And you were hired by ACA in order to make introductions to | | 2 | numerous business executives in China and Hong Kong, correct? | | 3 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 4 | And you expected to keep doing that into 2019 without Li's
Q. | | 5 | defamatory posts? | | 6 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | | | | 7 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you testified, I think yesterday, that you had | | 8 | applied for asylum, and that the application is still pending; | | 9 | is that correct? | | 10 | A.
Yes. | | 11 | Q.
And Lianchao Han assisted you with this application, didn't | | 12 | he? | | 13 | A.
I don't quite understand what you mean that he helped me. | | 14 | Q.
Did he advise you in preparing the application? | | 15 | A.
I don't understand the standard of opinion.
What does it | | 16 | mean? | | 17 | Q.
Did he work on the application with you? | | 18 | A.
Well, it is hard to say whether he did help to fill out the | | 19 | application or not because he didn't do that in front of me, | | 20 | but the thing is that through counsel, through lawyers, perhaps | | 21 | they give him some advice that he helped. | | 22 | Q.
Is Mr. Lianchao Han -- let me ask you this:
Did he discuss | | 23 | your asylum application with you? | | 24 | MS. CLINE:
Objection; relevance. | | 25 | THE COURT:
Overruled. | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | THE WITNESS:
No. | | 2 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 3 | Q.
Mr. Guo, when is the last time you spoke with Lianchao Han? | | 4 | Around one and a half to two years ago.
A.
I can't quite | | 5 | recall. | | 6 | Q.
You texted him just before your deposition in this case, to | | 7 | get facts about the case, didn't you? | | 8 | A.
I have never spoken to him about this case.
I was very | | 9 | angry with him. | | 10 | Q.
He advised you on whether to file this lawsuit, didn't he? | | 11 | A.
He actually insisted against -- he was insisted of not to | | 12 | proceed with this lawsuit.
In fact, I suspected that he may be | | 13 | in league with these two liars. | | 14 | Q.
Mr. Guo, Sasha Gong introduced you to Bill Gertz, didn't | | 15 | she? | | 16 | A.
Well, I don't -- I'm not sure that it was she alone who | | 17 | introduced me to Bill Gertz.
A lot of people introduced Bill | | 18 | Gertz to me. | | 19 | Bill Gertz has many connections -- well, first of all, do
Q. | | 20 | you know Bill Gertz? | | 21 | A.
Well, many years.
In fact, that in China, we all read his | | 22 | articles, and we are all his fans. | | 23 | Q.
And you know that he has many connections in | | 24 | Washington, D.C., don't you? | | 25 | That, I don't know.
A. | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
You know him to be what's called a China hawk? | | 2 | A.
I know that he was called -- he has a name called anti-CCP | | 3 | hero.
I don't know what hawk he is. | | 4 | Gertz wrote a book about you, didn't he?
Q. | | 5 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, can you repeat? | | 6 | MR. GREIM:
Sure. | | 7 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 8 | Q.
Gertz wrote a book about you, didn't he? | | 9 | A.
I don't know. | | 10 | Q.
Did you know that Gertz wrote a book called "Deceiving the | | 11 | Sky"? | | 12 | A.
I know that he wrote a book that is about the anti-CCP.
In | | 13 | Chinese, the name was "Deceiving the Sky Crossing the Sea." | | 14 | That, I know. | | 15 | Q.
Mr. Gertz asked you for an advance on his royalties on that | | 16 | book, didn't he? | | 17 | A.
You mean I pay him the royalty? | | 18 | Q.
Yes. | | 19 | The question is:
He asked you for an advance on the | | 20 | royalties, didn't he? | | 21 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor -- | | 22 | MR. GREIM:
I'm just going to withdraw it, so we can | | 23 | move faster.
I'll just withdraw that question. | | 24 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 25 | Mr. Guo, you introduced Mr. Gertz to William Je, didn't
Q. | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | you? | | 2 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, did you say that he | | 3 | introduced? | | 4 | MR. GREIM:
Mr. Gertz to William Je. | | 5 | THE INTERPRETER:
Okay. | | 6 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, can I confer? | | 7 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 8 | (Pause) | | 9 | THE COURT:
Mr. Guo, do you need the question back? | | 10 | THE WITNESS:
No.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 11 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 12 | Q.
Mr. Guo, are you aware that William Je then advanced | | 13 | \$100,000 to Mr. Gertz? | | 14 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 15 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you told Dr. Waller and Ms. Wallop, in your | | 16 | December meetings, that you wanted to eliminate the CCP and Xi | | 17 | Jinping; is that right? | | 18 | A.
(In English) 100 percent. | | 19 | You also told them that Yvette Wang was still a member of
Q. | | 20 | the Communist Party, didn't you? | | 21 | A.
Yes. | | 22 | Q.
And was she still a member of the Communist Party, in fact, | | 23 | in December of 2017? | | 24 | A.
No. | | 25 | So, did you lie to them?
Q. | | | | L4MKEAS1 Guo - Cross 168 | 1 | A.
So, what I said to them was that she had been a member of | |----|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 2 | the CCP, but in December 2017 -- in December 2017, she was not | | 3 | a member of CCP, in fact, because if you are the member of CCP, | | 4 | you do need to pay the membership fee.
And, also, that she did | | 5 | not pay for the membership fee, and, also, that she was being | | 6 | with someone like me, who is anti-CCP, so she's no longer CCP | | 7 | member, your question is a deceiving question. | | 8 | Q.
Mr. Guo, do you remember giving a deposition in this case | | 9 | in August 2019? | | 10 | A.
Yes. | | 11 | Q.
I asked you questions, and you swore to the answers under | | 12 | oath, under penalty of perjury, correct? | | 13 | A.
Yes. | | 14 | MR. GREIM:
I'm going to ask the witness to take a | | 15 | look at a video of that deposition, which is Exhibit JX 4, and | | 16 | this is lines 30, 19 to 32, 2. | | 17 | (Video playback) | | 18 | THE INTERPRETER:
I can't hear.
Are there subtitles? | | 19 | MR. GREIM:
There are no subtitles.
You'll hear the | | 20 | question from me, his response, and then you'll hear the | | 21 | translation. | | 22 | (Video playback) | | 23 | (Continued on next page) | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | Q.
Mr. Guo, did you give that testimony? | | 2 | A.
Yes. | | 3 | Q.
And it was truthful? | | 4 | Yes.
A. | | 5 | Q.
And you intended to release the information from this | | 6 | project to people of China via the media; is that right? | | 7 | A.
I don't understand. | | 8 | Q.
If Strategic Vision had produced what it is you were | | 9 | looking for, would you have then released that information to | | 10 | the people of China via the media? | | 11 | A.
No. | | 12 | Q.
I'm going to -- once again we are going to go to JX4. | | 13 | THE DEFENDANT:
Your Honor, I would like to confer | | 14 | with my counsel, Joanna. | | 15 | THE COURT:
You can confer briefly.
Is it with | | 16 | Ms. Cline or just with Mr. Guo's personal counsel? | | 17 | THE WITNESS:
And Joanna. | | 18 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Do it briefly. | | 19 | (Pause) | | 20 | THE WITNESS:
So am I going to say something or am I | | 21 | going to answer something? | | 22 | THE COURT:
No. | | 23 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 24 | Q.
So we are now going to show for you, Mr. Guo, this is from | | 25 | JX4, your August deposition, lines 207:25 to 208:12.
Okay. | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | (Video being played) | | 2 | Mr. Guo, that was your testimony on August 2nd, 2019, | | 3 | wasn't it? | | 4 | Yes.
A. | | 5 | Q.
And it was truthful, wasn't it? | | 6 | A.
Yes. | | 7 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you never identified Eastern Profit to Strategic, | | 8 | did you? | | 9 | A.
Well, it was actually done by Yvette -- Wang Yan Ping and | | 10 | Han -- well, I didn't know, identify Eastern Profit or Han | | 11 | Chunguang to this company. | | 12 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you were an agent of Eastern for the purposes of | | 13 | negotiating the research agreement with Strategic, weren't you? | | 14 | A.
I am the agent? | | 15 | Q.
That's my question. | | 16 | A.
But I have never been an agent to Eastern Profit. | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you acted on behalf of Eastern in connection with | | 18 | the negotiation of the research agreement, and your | | 19 | representations to Strategic in that role are binding on | | 20 | Eastern; isn't that right? | | 21 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, would you mind if I repeat | | 22 | the interpreting? | | 23 | A.
Well, I did not participate into the -- very much into the | | 24 | discussion of the research agreement.
All the discussion was | | 25 | conducted by Wang Yan Ping and including Han Lianchao.
I never | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | told the company I was representing whoever. | | 2 | Q.
Mr. Guo, would it surprise you to learn that Eastern Profit | | 3 | has taken the opposite position in this case? | | 4 | Not surprised.
A. | | 5 | Q.
In fact, just a moment ago you referred to Eastern Profit's | | 6 | counsel as your attorney, correct? | | 7 | A.
Who is representing Eastern Profit? | | 8 | Q.
Well, the attorney sitting here to my left -- | | 9 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, can you -- | | 10 | MR. GREIM:
Can you translate what the witness just | | 11 | said? | | 12 | THE INTERPRETER:
I actually didn't hear exactly what | | 13 | he just said.
I was telling him not to speak.
Do you want me | | 14 | to ask him? | | 15 | MR. YANG:
He mentioned that it was misspoken. | | 16 | THE COURT:
Let me ask you a couple of questions, | | 17 | Mr. Guo. | | 18 | THE WITNESS:
(In English)
Yes, your Honor. | | 19 | THE COURT:
You see the lawyer, the female lawyer at | | 20 | the first table in the front of me?
Do you see her? | | 21 | THE WITNESS:
(In English)
Yes. | | 22 | (Through Interpreter)
Yes. | | 23 | THE COURT:
And you referred to her a moment ago, to | | 24 | me, by her first name, right? | | 25 | THE WITNESS:
Yes. | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | THE COURT:
And did you meet with her before your | | 2 | testimony today? | | 3 | THE WITNESS:
No. | | 4 | THE COURT:
Let me ask a better question.
Before you | | 5 | came here to testify, have you met with plaintiff's lawyers | | 6 | here? | | 7 | THE WITNESS:
No. | | 8 | THE COURT:
How do you know her name? | | 9 | THE WITNESS:
Well, if it's because prior to this, my | | 10 | internal lawyer told me who was going to be present today. | | 11 | THE COURT:
And he referred to her by her first name? | | 12 | THE WITNESS:
Yes. | | 13 | MS. CLINE:
Your Honor -- | | 14 | THE COURT:
No. | | 15 | You may inquire, counsel. | | 16 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, who is the internal lawyer you just referenced? | | 18 | A.
Our internal lawyer, and they are not here, and also that | | 19 | this is my lawyer. | | 20 | Q.
What is the name of the internal lawyer you just | | 21 | referenced? | | 22 | A.
It was Daniel before.
He was Golden Spring's lawyer. | | 23 | Daniel Podhaskie?
Q. | | 24 | A.
Yes. | | 25 | THE COURT:
He's the individual who told you about | | | SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. | (212) 805-0300 |----|---------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | | Ms. Cline? | | 2 | | THE WITNESS:
Yes. | | 3 | | BY MR. GREIM: | | 4 | Q. | I'm not going to ask beyond this question, but does | | 5 | | Mr. Podhaskie tell you things about this case, Mr. Guo? | | 6 | A. | It was, yes, Mr. Podhaskie and my lawyer here. | | 7 | Q. | And does he take instruction from you, Mr. Guo? | | 8 | A. | No. | | 9 | Q. | Does he do things that you ask him to do? | | 10 | A. | No. | | 11 | Q. | Do you know who he answers to? | | 12 | A. | Golden Springs. | | 13 | Q. | Who is his boss at Golden Spring? | | 14 | A. | I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 15 | Q. | Mr. Guo, do you know who the boss of Golden Spring is? | | 16 | A. | The Fifth Amendment. | | 17 | Q. | My question is whether only you know, Mr. Guo? | | 18 | A. | I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 19 | Q. | Mr. Guo, do you assert that your communications with | | 20 | | Mr. Podhaskie are privileged? | | 21 | A. | Yes. | | 22 | Q. | Does he provide legal advice to you? | | 23 | A. | Yes. | | 24 | Q. | And does he provide legal advice to you about this case? | | 25 | A. | Yes. | | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
Mr. Guo, I'm going to return to Lianchao for a moment.
Did | | 2 | Mr. Han discuss with you that the research from this contract | | 3 | would be shared with the media? | | 4 | We did have a discussion talking about that we will
A. | | 5 | investigate and then bringing charges against them in the | | 6 | United States if there was investigation results, but we did | | 7 | not talk about it in detail. | | 8 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you remain -- | | 9 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, you must -- | | 10 | MR. GREIM:
Oh, sorry. | | 11 | A.
And I also mentioned that after the investigation process, | | 12 | then we can share it with the media. | | 13 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you remained on good terms with Lianchao Han all | | 14 | the way up to your August 2019 deposition, right? | | 15 | A.
No, in fact, that ever since the incident with this July | | 16 | has happened, our relationship was not in good terms. | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Han kept working on your asylum application at least | | 18 | through March of 2018, didn't he? | | 19 | Well, ever since this happened, ever since this July, I'm
A. | | 20 | getting the USB with rubbish in there, that ever since that | | 21 | happened, we were not in good terms.
So I don't have the | | 22 | recollection at this moment that what he has done to help in | | 23 | the asylum case, I don't have recollection. | | 24 | Q.
But you did text with him right before your deposition | | 25 | for -- to get facts, didn't you? | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
I don't recall. | | 2 | Q.
For the record, we're going to be playing JX4, lines 65:11 | | 3 | to 65:17. | | 4 | (Video being played) | | 5 | That was your testimony, wasn't it, Mr. Guo?
And it | | 6 | was truthful? | | 7 | A.
Yes. | | 8 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you are the one who ordered the wires totaling \$1 | | 9 | million to be sent to Strategic Vision on or about | | 10 | December 29th, 2017, aren't you? | | 11 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, do you want to repeat the | | 12 | date for me? | | 13 | MR. GREIM:
December 29th, 2017. | | 14 | MR. KLEIN:
Can I confer, your Honor? | | 15 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 16 | (Pause) | | 17 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 18 | Q.
Mr. Guo, are you aware that that is Eastern Profit's | | 19 | position in this case? | | 20 | A.
Can I ask -- | | 21 | THE COURT:
Do you need to confer, Mr. Klein? | | 22 | MR. KLEIN:
Yes, your Honor, please. | | 23 | (Pause) | | 24 | THE COURT:
Do you need the question back? | | 25 | THE WITNESS:
No, I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | | | 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 25 L4MPEAS2 Kwok - Cross 168 MR. GREIM: Your Honor, we want to make a record here on what we think -- are starting to conclude is not a good-faith invocation of the Fifth Amendment, and I don't say that lightly, but I want to explain why. 1 2 3 4 Golden Spring New York's in-house counsel gives advice to Mr. Wengui, and he gives him advice about this case. Golden Spring New York's in-house counsel is sitting right at counsel table with Eastern Profit. Golden Spring New York is acting in this case as attorney under a power of attorney for Eastern Profit. All I'm asking is, is the witness aware of Eastern Profit doing this, and we got the Fifth Amendment. And it's just hard to conceive of what sort of criminal matter might be invoked by this, and as somebody who has looked at all the facts, I can't think of what it is. THE COURT: Let me ask you a couple of questions. First of all, is your objective to create a basis for me to draw an adverse inference against Eastern Profit the same as if Mr. Guo was himself a plaintiff in this case? MR. GREIM: Yes. THE COURT: All right. So let me ask you, Ms. Cline, do you dispute that I can draw an adverse inference against Eastern Profit from the invocation of the Fifth Amendment the same as if Mr. Guo was the plaintiff in this case? 21 22 23 24 I'm not saying that I will draw that inference, but 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ### L4MPEAS2 Kwok - Cross 168 just that I can equate the two of them for the purposes of deciding whether to draw an adverse inference? 1 2 MS. CLINE: So, your Honor, my understanding is that the imputation of the adverse inference is based on a number of factors, one of which is akin to agency, as I understand it. And if it helps, I can say that I believe my predecessor counsel in this case has already conceded that Mr. Guo was acting as an agent for Eastern Profit. So that, I wanted to concede. I don't want to concede that there are other factors in the analysis. I'm just standing here not certain that I'm prepared to concede those, but we certainly would concede agency. THE COURT: That is enough for you, Mr. Greim? MR. GREIM: I think the factors -- I think there are a few different ways to establish it, and there are a few factors. And I have a memo, which is not at my fingertips, but I would say I think it's not quite enough. The concession regarding agency went to the negotiations and the representations made in negotiating the contract. But some of the statements that Mr. Guo is not answering arguably aren't part of the negotiation of the contract. They go to things like the performance of the contract or things that establish Guo's control more generally over these parties, and so I'm not sure we're all the way 21 22 23 24 25 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 L4MPEAS2 Kwok - Cross 168 there. I think we're very far along the way there, but we might need more. 1 2 THE COURT: Well, I'll hear from you, but I had understood Ms. Cline to say not just that Mr. Guo was an agent for the purpose of negotiation of the underlying contract, but that with respect to that component of the analysis that I need to do in terms of deciding whether to draw an inference against Eastern by virtue of his testimony, she's conceded that that's been satisfied. But let me hear from you, Mr. Greim. MR. GREIM: The four factors are Guo's loyalty to Eastern Profit, a degree of control by Guo over Eastern Profit, the mutual interests in this litigation, and that Guo has a sufficiently prominent role in this litigation. And so I think Guo's loyalty to Eastern Profit is established. With respect to the fact that he admittedly negotiated this on its behalf and is clearly trying to aid it in this litigation -- THE COURT: Let me cut you off, Mr. Greim. MR. GREIM: Yes. THE COURT: So, Ms. Cline, based upon those four factors, are you agreeing that I can draw an adverse inference against Eastern Profit to the same extent as if Mr. Guo was himself a party to this litigation? 20 21 22 23 In other words, that all four of those factors have been satisfied for the purpose of the adverse inference 24 25 |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | analysis? | | 2 | MS. CLINE:
May I consult with my client? | | 3 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 4 | (Pause) | | 5 | MS. CLINE:
Your Honor, we're not prepared to concede | | 6 | anything other than the agency point that's already made. | | 7 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Let me ask you one more question, | | 8 | Ms. Cline, and then I'll turn back to Mr. Greim.
A moment ago | | 9 | in my courtroom, you conferred with Mr. Guo and his personal | | 10 | lawyer.
Are you claiming a privilege with respect to that | | 11 | conference? | | 12 | MS. CLINE:
Yes. | | 13 | THE COURT:
On what basis?
Put another way, isn't it | | 14 | fair for me to assume that the basis is that he's got a common | | 15 | interest between Eastern Profit and Mr. Guo? | | 16 | MS. CLINE:
Yes, your Honor, and so he's a -- for | | 17 | purposes of this litigation, we are aligned and we have | | 18 | consulted about the litigation. | | 19 | THE COURT:
For purposes of this litigation, you are | | 20 | aligned, is that what you said? | | 21 | MS. CLINE:
Yes, sir. | | 22 | THE COURT:
And so you've got a common interest with | | 23 | respect to this litigation; is that correct? | | 24 | MS. CLINE:
I will agree with that, yes. | | 25 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim, what more do you need?
And | | | | 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ### L4MPEAS2 Kwok - Cross 168 then I'll consider the question of what questions you want to challenge the good-faith basis for the assertion of the privilege. 1 2 3 MR. GREIM: Well, your Honor, if they've got a common interest in the outcome of the litigation, I think that's stronger than the mutual interest that the test requires. The witness has a prominent role in the litigation. THE COURT: Again, let me cut you off. I don't want to right now make the decision as to whether I can draw an adverse inference and, frankly, whether an adverse inference is appropriate. That will turn upon the questions and what inferences I draw from the questions, and whether Guo is the same as Eastern Profit for the purpose of drawing an inference will depend upon the analysis of the case law. I don't have the case law in front of me. All I'm trying to do at the moment is to see whether we need to challenge the good-faith assertion of the privilege. I'm trying to avoid having to do that because I think this Court's understandably expressed reluctance, but if you need to establish more of a record, then tell me what you think you need to do and I'll determine whether you can do it. MR. GREIM: Your Honor, I think -- let me do this. I think the best thing to do is to simply forge ahead with the questioning and see where this comes up again. I'm just afraid I'll take too long on this topic and I won't get done. 22 23 24 25 |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | THE COURT:
Go ahead.
We'll leave that open. | | 2 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 3 | Q.
Mr. Guo, when -- did you recall hearing from Yvette Wang in | | 4 | late January of 2018 that, in her opinion, Strategic had not | | 5 | found sufficient information on the 15 subjects? | | 6 | A.
Well, I know that after I met with these two guys, that I | | 7 | did not get any information at all.
I don't recall what time | | 8 | that was. | | 9 | Q.
Do you recall being asked for new names by Strategic | | 10 | because there were problems with the first set of 15 names? | | 11 | A.
Well, I vaguely recall some such thing happened, but then | | 12 | the first time or second time, the names I provided basically | | 13 | were Wang Qishan and people related to him.
I don't recall | | 14 | anyone else. | | 15 | Q.
Do you recall, however, that Strategic Vision asked for new | | 16 | names to replace some of the names in the original list? | | 17 | A.
I don't recall. | | 18 | Q.
Do you recall refusing to provide new names to Strategic | | 19 | Vision? | | 20 | A.
I don't recall. | | 21 | Q.
Mr. Guo, I just want to make sure I understand.
When you | | 22 | say "I don't recall," do you mean you may have and can't | | 23 | remember, or that you didn't do it? | | 24 | A.
Well, I don't really remember, and just like the two videos | | 25 | before you show me, I don't recall, but the thing is I thought | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | that was okay and that was what happened, and but I don't | | 2 | recall. | | 3 | Q.
Do you know who Han Chunguang is? | | 4 | Yes.
A. | | 5 | Q.
Who is he? | | 6 | A.
He's the boss of Eastern Profit. | | 7 | Q.
How do you know he's the boss of Eastern Profit? | | 8 | A.
Well, that family was very successful in China, had a lot | | 9 | of business; so they build this company. | | 10 | Q.
Your daughter is the sole director of Eastern Profit, | | 11 | though, isn't she? | | 12 | A.
I don't know. | | 13 | Q.
When did you last see Han Chunguang, Mr. Guo? | | 14 | A.
Well, yesterday when I was on the road here that I saw him, | | 15 | and then I think several days ago I saw him too. | | 16 | Q.
You see him frequently, don't you? | | 17 | A.
I don't understand what the definition of frequency means, | | 18 | but when I need to see him, I can see him. | | 19 | When do you need to see him?
Q. | | 20 | A.
Well, there were a lot of things asked about taking down | | 21 | the CCP; so when I need to see him, I'll see him. | | 22 | Q.
Do you request meetings with him? | | 23 | A.
I don't understand what that means. | | 24 | Q.
Do you ask him to meet with you? | | 25 | Well, it's quite normal and among us all that who are the
A. | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | people supporting the taking down of the CCP that if we need to | | | | | 2 | discuss or we'll just meet.
There is nothing about who is | | 3 | requesting who or who is inviting whom.
We have common | | 4 | mission. | | 5 | Q.
He comes to your apartment very frequently, doesn't he? | | 6 | A.
I believe, in the last two years, that he did not come to | | 7 | my place more than ten times or no more than five times. | | 8 | Q.
I took your deposition in August of 2019, remember? | | 9 | A.
Yes. | | 10 | Q.
And you remember you said you had seen him just that | | 11 | morning of your deposition? | | 12 | A.
I really cannot recall what happened in that deposition.
I | | 13 | don't remember. | | 14 | Q.
We're playing JX4, page 115, 19 to 22. | | 15 | (Video being played) | | 16 | That was your testimony, wasn't it, Mr. Guo? | | 17 | A.
Yes. | | 18 | Q.
And it was truthful? | | 19 | Yes.
A. | | 20 | Q.
But then you testified that you didn't know why Han | | 21 | Chunguang came to your building, didn't you? | | 22 | A.
I just don't recall what I -- I just don't recall what I | | 23 | said at the time.
I may have said that.
I just don't recall | | 24 | that now, at this point.
When I'm in court now, I'm just | | 25 | telling you what I feel.
At this moment, I don't recall. | 168 | | L4MPEAS2
Kwok - Cross | |----|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
And in August 2019, you said you didn't know who Han | | 2 | Chunguang worked for or who assigned him work, remember? | | 3 | A.
Well, I just don't recall what I said at that time because, | | 4 | like, I have 50 cases.
I don't recall what day and saying what | | 5 | and when.
Only I can tell you at this moment I'm in court, I | | 6 | don't recall. | | 7 | Q.
Okay.
Let's just -- we'll keep pressing ahead. | | 8 | Let me ask you this, Mr. Guo.
When did you learn that | | 9 | Han Chunguang was the boss of Eastern Profit? | | 10 | A.
I don't recall the specific time. | | 11 | Q.
Do you recall that I asked you at your deposition whether | | 12 | Han Chunguang attended a meeting with Strategic to discuss the | | 13 | contract and you laughed?
Do you recall that? | | 14 | A.
Well, perhaps I thought, you know, just like before, maybe | | 15 | I did say I recalled but that, we can base my answer on that | | 16 | one, but at this moment, I don't recall. | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, we're going to play from JX4, line -- I'm sorry, | | 18 | page 158, lines five to 15. | | 19 | (Video being played) | | 20 | Do you recall that testimony, Mr. Guo? | | 21 | A.
Yes.
After I watch the video now, that my memory is | | 22 | refreshed, now that I recall. | | 23 | Q.
And were you being completely truthful and honest to your | | 24 | answers to me in that deposition, Mr. Guo? | | 25 | A.
Yes. | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
Mr. Guo, Han Chunguang is actually your man servant, isn't | | 2 | he? | | 3 | A.
Who says that? | | 4 | That's my question.
Q. | | 5 | A.
No. | | 6 | Q.
He cooks for you?
Does he cook for you? | | 7 | A.
Several times.
Well, several times, but the thing is that | | 8 | in the Chinese tradition, men cooking was a virtue, and so we | | 9 | cook for each other sometimes as friends and family.
I | | 10 | actually cooked on the broadcasting too. | | 11 | Q.
And he runs errands for you, doesn't he? | | 12 | A.
No. | | 13 | Q.
And he has cooked for you when you had guests over and | | 14 | served that food to the guests, hasn't he? | | 15 | A.
No. | | 16 | Q.
Mr. Guo, if you're so sure that Han Chunguang is the boss | | 17 | of Eastern -- let me ask you this -- strike that. | | 18 | Have you ever talked to your daughter about Eastern | | 19 | Profit? | | 20 | A.
No. | | 21 | Q.
Does she live in the area? | | 22 | A.
No. | | 23 | Q.
Do you see her very often? | | 24 | A.
Very rarely. | | 25 | She's in the U.S. though, correct?
Q. | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
Yes. | | 2 | Q.
So if Han Chunguang is the boss of Eastern Profit, why is | | 3 | he not sitting here with counsel for this lawsuit; do you know? | | 4 | MS. CLINE:
Objection.
Foundation. | | 5 | THE COURT:
Overruled.
I take it he's not at counsel | | 6 | table, right?
He's not in the courtroom with counsel? | | 7 | MS. CLINE:
That's correct, your Honor. | | 8 | THE COURT:
All right.
There's a foundation. | | 9 | Objection is overruled. | | 10 | A.
I don't know. | | 11 | Q.
Well, you said you saw him frequently.
Do you ever talk to | | 12 | him about this case? | | 13 | A.
No. | | 14 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, do you mind if I clarify | | 15 | one thing with the witness? | | 16 | A.
Okay.
So I emphasized by the end of 2019 to the present | | 17 | time, Han Chunguang did not come to my 18th floor apartment | | 18 | more than five times. | | 19 | I see.
Q.
So after your deposition, he stopped coming to your | | 20 | apartment so frequently; is that right? | | 21 | A.
No.
I'm just referring to the question that you asked | | 22 | before.
I'm just saying that I don't really talk to him every | | 23 | day. | | 24 | Q.
Who is William Je? | | 25 | The Fifth Amendment.
A. | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you testified in this case that William Je was a | | 2 | friend of yours, right? | | 3 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, can I confer for a moment? | | 4 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 5 | (Pause) | | 6 | THE COURT:
All right.
Do you need the question, | | 7 | Mr. Guo? | | 8 | A.
Well, William Je probably is a director of ACA. | | 9 | Q.
Okay.
And my question is whether he's a friend of yours | | 10 | also? | | 11 | A.
Yes. | | 12 | Q.
And you've known him for a long time, haven't you? | | 13 | A.
Well, I don't know what you mean by "long time." | | 14 | Q.
Ten years? | | 15 | A.
Yes. | | 16 | Q.
Fifteen years? | | 17 | A.
I don't recall quite clearly now. | | 18 | Q.
And you trust him, yes? | | 19 | Yes.
A. | | 20 | Q.
And you believe he's anti-CCP, correct? | | 21 | A.
Of course. | | 22 | Q.
He's told you that, right? | | 23 | A.
Yes. | | 24 | Q.
And he sends money to places when you ask him to do so, | | 25 | doesn't he? | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
The Fifth Amendment.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | | | | 2 | Q.
Do you recall earlier we looked at an affidavit that you | | 3 | filed in your Hongkuan Li lawsuit; do you remember that? | | 4 | Yes.
A. | | 5 | Q.
Was the person from ACA who told you about the defamatory | | 6 | posts William Je? | | 7 | A.
Yes. | | 8 | Q.
And was William Je the person that you were working to | | 9 | introduce to executives in Hong Kong and on the mainland? | | 10 | A.
I don't quite understand. | | 11 | Q.
Well, do you recall that you declared to the Court in | | 12 | Maryland that the purpose of your deal with ACA was for you to | | 13 | introduce them to executives and business opportunities in Hong | | 14 | Kong and on the mainland? | | 15 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 16 | Q.
Now, you know that William Je already has many contacts on | | 17 | the mainland, doesn't he? | | 18 | A.
Yes. | | 19 | And he developed those over many years writing the Greater
Q. | | 20 | China Desk for Macquarie, correct? | | 21 | A.
Perhaps. | | 22 | Q.
And do you know that he was -- | | 23 | THE INTERPRETER:
Stop.
It should be "should be." | | 24 | Q.
And you know that he was economic advisor to several | | 25 | municipalities on the mainland, correct? | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
I don't know. | | | | | 2 | Q.
Has he ever mentioned that to you? | | 3 | A.
I don't recall. | | 4 | Q.
How much do you -- let me ask you this. | | 5 | Do you know about any connection that William Je has | | 6 | to the City of Chongqing? | | 7 | A.
Now, perhaps that he mentioned something like that, but | | 8 | then, you know, in Hong Kong a lot of people talking about | | 9 | that, about being Chinese Communist Party member.
But, you | | 10 | know -- not communist party member, but then lots of people | | 11 | saying they are relative -- | | 12 | THE INTERPRETER:
I'm sorry, I'm rambling. | | 13 | A.
So I -- perhaps he said that, but I don't recall and I | | 14 | won't take responsibility of that and -- | | 15 | (Pause) | | 16 | But then he might have said that he is a member of | | 17 | CPPCC, but lots of people in Hong Kong claim that.
And so he | | 18 | might have said that, but I don't take responsibility for that. | | 19 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim, are you near a breaking point? | | 20 | MR. GREIM:
I actually am, yes. | | 21 | THE COURT:
Why don't you bring it to a close, and | | 22 | then we'll take our mid-morning break. | | 23 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 24 | Q.
So, Mr. Guo, have you done any background research into | | 25 | William Je? | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | A.
No. | | 2 | Q.
But you're the one who ordered ACA to pay the million | | 3 | dollars to Strategic Vision, correct? | | 4 | The Fifth Amendment.
A. | | 5 | Q.
And you introduced William Je to close associates as your | | 6 | money man, haven't you? | | 7 | A.
The Fifth Amendment. | | 8 | Q.
Aren't you concerned with Mr. William Je being your money | | 9 | man if he is associated with the CPPCC? | | 10 | A.
The Fifth Amendment. | | 11 | Q.
Mr. Guo, are you -- | | 12 | MR. GREIM:
Yes, we'll stop there.
Thank you, your | | 13 | Honor. | | 14 | THE COURT:
Okay.
It's now 11:44.
We'll break until | | 15 | noon.
One thing counsel should focus on during the break is a | | 16 | question raised by Mr. Greim with respect to the imputation of | | 17 | the assertion of the Fifth and whether there's a good-faith | | 18 | basis to challenge the assertion of the Fifth. | | 19 | My understanding of the law, and I'm directing myself | | 20 | to Ms. Cline on this as well, is that if there is a challenge | | 21 | to the assertion of the Fifth, it really should proceed | | 22 | question by question.
And it's for me, in the first instance, | | 23 | to determine whether there's sufficient basis to question | | 24 | good-faith assertion of the Fifth. | | 25 | And so, Mr. Greim, you should be thinking about, if | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | you do intend to challenge it, which particular question. | | 2 | All right.
We're adjourned. | | 3 | (Recess) | | 4 | THE COURT:
You may be seated.
Before we get | | 5 | started -- I want this to be translated. | | 6 | This morning I gave an order that retransmission and | | 7 | rebroadcasting of this proceeding is a violation of a Court | | 8 | order. | | 9 | Would the interpreter please interpret that so that | | 10 | the people who are listening on the phone can hear it. | | 11 | That order applies to people who are in the courtroom | | 12 | and people who are listening over the telephone. | | 13 | My order has been violated.
I know that for a fact | | 14 | because I have heard a transmission through YouTube of a | | 15 | portion of the proceedings this morning. | | 16 | In a moment, I will ask counsel if they know anything | | 17 | about this.
For now, I am ordering the US Marshals to | | 18 | investigate.
If this took place and we find out who did it, it | | 19 | may constitute and will constitute civil contempt and may | | 20 | constitute criminal contempt. | | 21 | Anybody who retransmits or rebroadcasts the proceeding | | 22 | going forward will subject themselves to civil or criminal | | 23 | contempt. | | 24 | Just so the record is clear, I have had a Chinese | | 25 | interpreter speak loudly so that those over the phone will hear | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | what I have said both in English and in Chinese. | | 2 | Ms. Cline, do you know anything about this? | | 3 | MS. CLINE:
I do not, your Honor. | | 4 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim, do you know anything about | | 5 | this? | | 6 | MR. GREIM:
I do not, your Honor. | | 7 | THE COURT:
All right.
Mr. Klein, I've been informed | | 8 | that you wish to address the Court. | | 9 | MR. KLEIN:
I do, your Honor.
May I? | | 10 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 11 | MR. KLEIN:
There were some questions that were asked | | 12 | of my client concerning meetings with Ms. Cline, Eastern's | | 13 | counsel.
He has not met with Ms. Cline since the trial began, | | 14 | but I think there was some confusion in how the dialogue | | 15 | transpired, or at least the way his statements came out on the | | 16 | record. | | 17 | They should reflect that there were no meetings since | | 18 | the trial began, but my understanding is that there were | | 19 | meetings previously.
I've explained to my client that while | | 20 | his discussions with counsel are privileged, that the facts of | | 21 | his meeting with counsel or the fact that he had a discussion | | 22 | with counsel is not privileged. | | 23 | And if the Court or counsel wishes to inquire as to | | 24 | the fact of meetings that occurred with Ms. Cline prior to the | | 25 | trial, I wanted to -- certainly to the extent that the Court | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 L4MPEAS2 Kwok - Cross 168 directs that they can do so, that's fine with us, he'll answer those questions. And I just wanted to make sure that I clarified that for the Court, and I thank the Court for indulging me. THE COURT: Is there anything that plaintiff's counsel wishes to raise with the Court before we begin the examination again? MS. CLINE: I consulted counsel about the Court's request regarding imputation of the invocation and the adverse inference exercise. My understanding is that there are four factors, and we are willing to stipulate to two of them if the Court -- THE COURT: I'll hear you, but you've already agreed that there's a common interest between you and Eastern Profit and the witness. But I'll hear you with respect to the other stipulations, and then we'll hear from defendant's counsel. MS. CLINE: Yes, so my understanding is that that's one of the four factors, and the second one to which we're willing to stipulate is the role of the non-party witness in the litigation. So we're willing to stipulate that Mr. Guo is a key witness in this litigation. 22 23 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Greim? MR. GREIM: Your Honor, I think we're very close to establishing the other two. I would probably have a few more questions to develop that. As we go along, I'd like to kind of 24 25 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 L4MPEAS2 Kwok - Cross 168 fold them into my examination so I can do several things at once. 1 2 THE COURT: Why don't you ask the questions, and then if it turns out that there are specific questions as to which you wish to challenge the good faith of the assertion of the privilege, we can address those at the conclusion of the examination. MR. GREIM: And, your Honor, one other point. Our understanding is that challenging the good faith basis is the first point, something we'd really need to do here because then we'd have to maybe go back and get an answer, I suppose, based on your ruling. But then designating the statements for which we think there should be adverse inference taken may not have to happen right this moment. THE COURT: That's correct, and I should have made it clear, if it wasn't clear before, that the question of whether I should draw an adverse inference and which questions I should draw an adverse inference with respect to and, frankly, whether the factors are satisfied, are all things that I would expect counsel to argue after we're done taking the evidence in this case. So each side should establish whatever evidence they think they can establish and need to establish, and then we'll answer what it all means. 23 24 25 |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | MR. GREIM:
May I continue the examination, your | | 2 | Honor? | | 3 | THE COURT:
Yes, you may. | | 4 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 5 | Q.
Mr. Guo, how frequently did you meet with Ms. Cline before | | 6 | this trial? | | 7 | A.
Who is Ms. Cline? | | 8 | Q.
Joanna, Joanna Cline sitting here. | | 9 | A.
So I did not meet Ms. Cline in person even once, but we met | | 10 | over online twice or three times. | | 11 | Q.
And did you play a role in the decision on whether to hire | | 12 | Ms. Cline as replacement counsel in this litigation? | | 13 | A.
No. | | 14 | Q.
Do you know who did? | | 15 | A.
I don't know. | | 16 | Q.
Did you meet with Ms. Cline or Mr. Chuff before your second | | 17 | deposition in this case, in December of 2019? | | 18 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, did you say before | | 19 | December 2019? | | 20 | MR. GREIM:
Yes. | | 21 | A.
No. | | 22 | Q.
You didn't meet with Ms. Cline during breaks at that | | 23 | deposition or Mr. Chuff? | | 24 | A.
You told me about the second time in 2019, right? | | 25 | Yes.
Q. | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | A.
No. | | 2 | Q.
You conferred with Mr. Podhaskie about information that he | | 3 | passes on for Ms. Cline? | | 4 | I don't know whether it is a privileged information because
A. | | 5 | it is between lawyer and client.
Well, and also because I came | | 6 | from China; so I don't know when or what to use these kind of a | | 7 | law.
What is protected, I'm not sure. | | 8 | THE COURT:
I think you can answer that question. | | 9 | You're not being asked for the contents of the conversation. | | 10 | You're just being asked for the subject. | | 11 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, do you mind to repeat your | | 12 | question?
I forget. | | 13 | THE COURT:
Let me ask the court reporter to repeat | | 14 | the question, please. | | 15 | (Record read) | | 16 | A.
Do you mean Joanna? | | 17 | Q.
Yes. | | 18 | A.
Yes. | | 19 | Now, you were represented by counsel when you were a party
Q. | | 20 | in this case, correct, Mr. Guo? | | 21 | A.
Yes. | | 22 | Q.
And those attorneys continued to represent you in | | 23 | discovery, right? | | 24 | A.
Yes. | | 25 | And those attorneys were Mark Harmon and Erin Teske from
Q. | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | the Hodgson Russ law firm? | | 2 | THE INTERPRETER:
And? | | 3 | MR. GREIM:
Erin Teske. | | 4 | Well, the thing is, I know that there were two lawyers, but
A. | | 5 | if you were talking about their names, I really cannot be sure | | 6 | about the names. | | 7 | Q.
Do you recall that your -- let me strike that. | | 8 | Do you recall during breaks in the deposition, having | | 9 | meetings with your lawyers and the lawyer for Eastern Profit? | | 10 | A.
Well, what lawyers for Eastern Profit?
I don't know what | | 11 | lawyers for Eastern Profit.
I only met with my lawyer. | | 12 | Q.
Do you recall a lawyer for Eastern Profit named Zachary | | 13 | Grendi, or Zack? | | 14 | A.
Well, you see, I only met with -- you're talking about | | 15 | Joanna, right?
The thing is, I only saw Joanna, but I didn't | | 16 | meet her.
I only talked with my lawyer. | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, Joanna Cline and her firm are the fourth set of | | 18 | lawyers for Eastern Profit in this case, correct? | | 19 | I don't know about this.
A. | | 20 | Q.
The lawyer before Joanna Cline was Zack Grendi, wasn't he? | | 21 | A.
I don't recall clearly.
I really don't recall. | | 22 | Q.
By the way, Mr. Podhaskie from Golden Spring was at your | | 23 | first deposition, wasn't he? | | 24 | A.
It seems so, but I cannot be sure. | | 25 | And you certainly conferred with him during breaks, didn't
Q. | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | you? | | 2 | A.
When was the break? | | 3 | Q.
In your deposition. | | 4 | I suppose so, but then I cannot recall it's such a long
A. | | 5 | time ago. | | 6 | Q.
You claim that those meetings were privileged? | | 7 | A.
Yes. | | 8 | Q.
Mr. Guo, have you invoked the privilege, the Fifth | | 9 | Amendment privilege, here to harm Eastern Profit's interests in | | 10 | this litigation? | | 11 | THE INTERPRETER:
To harm or to hide, sorry? | | 12 | MR. GREIM:
Harm, harm. | | 13 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, Mr. Guo was invoking on advice | | 14 | of counsel. | | 15 | THE COURT:
So I think he can answer the question.
I | | 16 | don't think that there's anything improper about that question. | | 17 | MR. KLEIN:
Okay. | | 18 | A.
Of course not. | | 19 | Because you want Eastern Profit to win this case, don't
Q. | | 20 | you? | | 21 | A.
Of course not, and I hope that Eastern Profit will win this | | 22 | case.
Whether to win the case or not is decided by the judge. | | 23 | I'm only here to be the witness. | | 24 | THE COURT:
Mr. Guo, do you hope that Eastern Profit | | 25 | wins this case? | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | THE WITNESS:
Very much hope so. | | | | | 2 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 3 | Q.
Mr. Guo, is Golden Spring New York paying for your | | 4 | attorney, Mr. Klein, with a K? | | 5 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 6 | Q.
Mr. Guo, who is paying for Eastern Profit's attorneys in | | 7 | this case? | | 8 | A.
The Fifth Amendment. | | 9 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you spoke with Mr. Je about repayment of a | | 10 | supposed loan from ACA to Eastern Profit; is that right? | | 11 | A.
Fifth Amendment. | | 12 | Q.
Mr. Je -- you claim Mr. Je told you that he wanted that | | 13 | loan repaid, right? | | 14 | A.
The Fifth Amendment. | | 15 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you want to do everything you can for Eastern | | 16 | Profit to win this case, don't you? | | 17 | THE INTERPRETER:
Do you mind if I repeat the | | 18 | interpreting? | | 19 | Well, I'm only doing what I'm supposed to do as a witness.
A. | | 20 | I don't think about other things. | | 21 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you have attempted to influence the outcome of | | 22 | this case, have you not? | | 23 | A.
No, I'm only here because I want to prove that I'm not a | | 24 | double agent. | | 25 | Mr. Guo, have you threatened other witnesses in this case?
Q. | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | A.
Absolutely not. | | 2 | Q.
Mr. Guo, have you paid any individual to stand outside the | | 3 | courthouse and protest? | | 4 | Fifth Amendment.
A. | | 5 | Q.
Have you paid any individual to come into this courtroom | | 6 | and sit during the trial? | | 7 | A.
The Fifth Amendment. | | 8 | Q.
Have you threatened any witness that you will sue them if | | 9 | they testify? | | 10 | A.
No, never.
You see, the reason that I'm sitting here is | | 11 | because that the -- because it is the result of a threat, the | | 12 | threat caused me by the CCP.
Why should I do other things to | | 13 | other people? | | 14 | Q.
You're not here under subpoena, are you, sir? | | 15 | A.
What do you mean by "subpoena"? | | 16 | Q.
Did you receive an order from a Court requiring you to | | 17 | appear? | | 18 | A.
Well, I suppose I must have received a notice from the | | 19 | Court, right? | | 20 | Q.
That's my question to the witness.
Do you know? | | 21 | A.
I think so. | | 22 | Q.
Well, you were called in this case by Eastern Profit, | | 23 | weren't you? | | 24 | A.
Yes. | | 25 | You didn't ask Eastern Profit to produce a subpoena before
Q. | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | you appeared, did you? | | 2 | A.
Well, I would tell you that, in Chinese, right, and the | | 3 | subpoena, if it is translated to Chinese, it is called | | 4 | Chuanpiao, then I received some notice.
I do receive a notice | | 5 | to tell me to be here, but whether it was a subpoena or not, | | 6 | I'm not sure.
I don't know. | | 7 | Q.
When Eastern asked you to appear as a witness, did you | | 8 | agree to do so? | | 9 | A.
Yes. | | 10 | Q.
Mr. Guo, since coming to the U.S., you have claimed to have | | 11 | access "at any time" to high-level CCP communications, correct? | | 12 | A.
Yes. | | 13 | Q.
And if you receive such information, you would certainly | | 14 | provide it to the FBI or CIA, wouldn't you? | | 15 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, can we confer? | | 16 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 17 | (Pause) | | 18 | THE COURT:
Do you need the question back? | | 19 | THE WITNESS:
(In English)
No, your Honor.
I have | | 20 | the answer. | | 21 | THE INTERPRETER:
No, your Honor, I have the answer. | | 22 | A.
We, myself, provided some to the FBI, DOJ or CIA, but | | 23 | probably not all. | | 24 | Q.
And my question is, when you received such information, you | | 25 | provide it to the FBI or CIA or DOJ, correct? | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | A.
Yes. | | 2 | Q.
And you provide all of the information you receive to the | | 3 | FBI, CIA or DOJ, don't you? | | 4 | No.
A. | | 5 | Q.
I'm sorry, was that an answer "no" to my question, or was | | 6 | that an invocation of the privilege? | | 7 | A.
I did not provide all the information. | | 8 | Q.
As I was sitting here, I may have misheard, but I thought I | | 9 | saw Mr. Klein say no to Mr. -- | | 10 | THE COURT:
No, no, no.
We're not getting into | | 11 | communications between Mr. Klein and his client.
If you want | | 12 | the answer read back, you can have an answer read back, but | | 13 | you're not going into what communications they had. | | 14 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you had the opportunity to receive high-level CCP | | 15 | communications, as you said, at least through 2019, didn't you? | | 16 | A.
I can't say that I have all the information, some. | | 17 | Q.
But by the time of your deposition in August of 2019, you | | 18 | had never met with the FBI or CIA to share information, had | | 19 | you? | | 20 | THE INTERPRETER:
The witness ask that you repeat the | | 21 | time. | | 22 | Q.
August 2019. | | 23 | A.
I don't -- I cannot be certain which month that we have met | | 24 | or which month we have not met.
And also, that I was requested | | 25 | by the FBI and CIA that any time that we met, that we cannot | L4MPEAS2 Kwok - Cross 168 actually say that we met. And they also told me that if I say that I met them, it was actually a bad thing to my family in China. 1 2 3 In the fact that I'm sitting here, I wish I don't need to answer this kind of question because it is very bad for my family, friends in China. It is because in China, if you are having any connection with the partnership with the FBI or CIA, it is actually a crime of betrayal, traitor; so it can be sentenced to death. 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. However, you freely testified to that yesterday, didn't you? 10 11 A. Well, actually, even yesterday I felt about that. I wanted to say that yesterday. It's just that, you know, I just cannot be doing the right thing, perfect thing all the time; so that is why I want to mention it here today. 12 13 14 15 Q. Mr. Guo, we're going to show you from JX4 your first deposition, page 152, line 13 to 25 and 153, line 3 to 7. 18 21 16 17 (Video being played) Mr. Guo, that was your testimony in your August 2019 deposition, correct? 19 20 A. Yes. Q. And it was truthful, right? 22 A. Well, it was at the request that the CIA and FBI told me that I should not have said that. Well, on the one hand, because the deposition, after we had finished the deposition, 23 24 25 |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | all the proceeding have been uploaded to the internet.
It can | | | | | 2 | be viewed; so for the safety, I need to say that.
And also, I | | 3 | made a promise to the FBI and CIA; so I have to say that. | | 4 | Mr. Guo, did you -- were you less than truthful in your
Q. | | 5 | deposition because the deposition was uploaded to the internet? | | 6 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, can I confer? | | 7 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 8 | (Pause) | | 9 | Why don't I ask you to stay apart from one another a | | 10 | little more, counsel, staying away. | | 11 | MR. KLEIN:
Understood. | | 12 | (Pause) | | 13 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim, while they're conferring, how | | 14 | much longer do you think you have? | | 15 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, I'm sorry to say I think I've | | 16 | got another hour.
I've got to go through some other clips. | | 17 | THE COURT:
Since it's 12:58, we're going to reconvene | | 18 | at 1:55, and that way, Mr. Klein can confer with his client | | 19 | socially distanced.
And we'll see you a little before 2:00. | | 20 | Make sure you're all ready to go at 1:55. | | 21 | MR. KLEIN:
Thank you, your Honor. | | 22 | (Luncheon recess) | | 23 | | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | | | As an initial matter, I'd like to ask the interpreter | |----------------------------------------------------------------| | to interpret in Chinese, and in a way that can be heard over | | | | I'd like to remind every participant in this | | proceeding, both those in court in front of me and those | | listening over the telephone, of one important point:
It is | | illegal for anybody to rebroadcast, or retransmit, or record | | I have issued an order to that | | Anybody who violates it will be subject to penalties | | I have ordered the marshals to | | investigate those who were retransmitting and recording the | | | | Does plaintiff's counsel have anything for the Court | | | | | | Mr. Greim, anything for the Court? | | | | | | Mr. Guo, you're reminded that you are under oath. | | Yes, your Honor. | | Mr. Greim, you may inquire. | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | the privilege.
I was just letting the Court know. | | 2 | THE COURT:
It's up to the witness whether to assert | | 3 | the privilege. | | 4 | THE WITNESS:
Yes, your Honor. | | 5 | THE COURT:
What's your answer to the question? | | 6 | THE WITNESS:
Okay.
I am asserting my privilege. | | 7 | MR. GREIM:
Thank you, your Honor. | | 8 | | | 9 | | | 10 | | | 11 | | | 12 | | | 13 | | | 14 | | | 15 | | | 16 | | | 17 | | | 18 | | | 19 | | | 20 | | | 21 | | | 22 | | | 23 | | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | GUO WENGUI, | | 2 | CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED | | 3 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 4 | Mr. Guo, have you had -- first of all, is your apartment at
Q. | | 5 | the Sherry-Netherland Hotel? | | 6 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 7 | Q.
Mr. Guo, do you live on Fifth Avenue? | | 8 | A.
I invoke the Fifth Amendment. | | 9 | Q.
Okay.
I'm not going to ask you what you own or anything | | 10 | about the ownership.
I'm just asking, do you live in an | | 11 | apartment at the Sherry-Netherland? | | 12 | A.
Yes. | | 13 | Q.
Have you had cameras and microphones installed in that | | 14 | apartment? | | 15 | A.
Well, it's installed in the entire hotel building.
It's | | 16 | their own facility. | | 17 | Q.
So you have the capability to record audio and visual in | | 18 | your apartment, don't you? | | 19 | No.
A. | | 20 | Q.
You've never had the capability of recording audio and | | 21 | video in your apartment at the Sherry-Netherland? | | 22 | A.
I don't quite understand what you mean, "capability."
What | | 23 | does it mean? | | 24 | Q.
Have you been able to make video and audio recordings? | | 25 | Well, it really depends on under what kind of circumstances
A. | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | and also what kind of equipment, so I really can't answer that | | 2 | question. | | 3 | Q.
T&M Security installed the microphones and cameras in your | | 4 | apartment, didn't they? | | 5 | A.
What company? | | 6 | Q.
T&M Security. | | 7 | A.
Where is this company?
Where is this company? | | 8 | Q.
The question -- Mr. Guo, I'm asking you a question.
My | | 9 | question is:
Is T&M Security the company that installed | | 10 | cameras and microphones in your apartment? | | 11 | A.
Well, I don't know about the name of the company; however, | | 12 | I do know that it was before the true owner of this | | 13 | apartment -- prior to the true owner of this apartment, they | | 14 | have already installed the microphone and the camera.
I myself | | 15 | did not. | | 16 | Q.
Have you had audio and video recordings made in your | | 17 | apartment? | | 18 | A.
You mean I myself? | | 19 | Have you caused them to be made, either by yourself or by
Q. | | 20 | someone else? | | 21 | A.
I did not myself, and I did not cause -- I did not ask | | 22 | other people to do that either. | | 23 | Q.
Did you fortuitously find that recordings, video and audio | | 24 | recordings, had been made of meetings in your apartment? | | 25 | THE INTERPRETER:
I'm sorry, counsel, I -- | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | MR. GREIM:
I'll just rephrase. | | 2 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 3 | Q.
Did you find that video and audio recordings had been made | | 4 | of meetings in your apartment at sometime? | | 5 | A.
Yes. | | 6 | Q.
And were these recordings of your meetings with Liu | | 7 | Yanping? | | 8 | A.
Yes. | | 9 | Q.
And you actually shared the video and audio recordings with | | 10 | some journalists at the Wall Street Journal, didn't you? | | 11 | A.
I actually found it from online, and then I shared them | | 12 | with the journalists. | | 13 | Q.
So, the video and audio recordings you did not make in your | | 14 | own apartment appeared online; is that correct? | | 15 | A.
Well, it was at the beginning, actually.
At the very | | 16 | beginning, they appeared on some Twitter that's from the CCP or | | 17 | some of the videos in China. | | 18 | Q.
And so you then discussed those videos and showed them to | | 19 | journalists at the Wall Street Journal, right? | | 20 | A.
I showed them the portion, a small portion of it, that | | 21 | downloaded from online. | | 22 | MR. GREIM:
Let's pull up Exhibit 34. | | 23 | Q.
I'm showing what's been marked as Exhibit 34. | | 24 | MR. GREIM:
Could you enlarge it even further to show | | 25 | that picture? | | | | L4MKEAS3 Guo - Cross 168 | 1 | I'm going to ask the interpreter to please read to the | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 2 | witness the caption to the picture that I am about to read. | | 3 | "Chinese Businessman Guo Wengui, at his apartment at | | 4 | the Sherry-Netherland Hotel in Manhattan, where he says he was | | 5 | visited by officials from Chinese Ministry of State Security." | | 6 | Then there is a photo credit from the Wall Street Journal. | | 7 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 8 | Q.
My question is:
Mr. Guo, do you recall meeting with the | | 9 | journalist? | | 10 | A.
Yes. | | 11 | Q.
And is this a picture of you at your meeting with the | | 12 | journalist? | | 13 | A.
Yes. | | 14 | MR. GREIM:
Let's go to the next picture. | | 15 | Please enlarge it a little bit.
That's about as good | | 16 | as it can get.
There we go. | | 17 | Once again, I'm going to read the caption, and I am | | 18 | going to ask the translator to interpret it. | | 19 | "Mr. Guo shows a video he says he made of the visit to | | 20 | his home by Chinese state security officials."
That's the | | 21 | caption, and then the photo is credited to the Wall Street | | 22 | Journal. | | 23 | THE WITNESS:
So, you were saying that I show a video | | 24 | to whom? | | 25 | | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 2 | Q.
Mr. Guo, I was reading the caption, and I asked the | | 3 | interpreter just to read it back to you.
That's all that's | | 4 | happened so far. | | 5 | Mr. Guo, my question is:
Is this a picture of you | | 6 | showing a video to the journalists? | | 7 | A.
Yes, that is the video I downloaded from online. | | 8 | Q.
Well, Mr. Guo, the caption says that you said you made this | | 9 | video of the visit.
Do you deny that? | | 10 | A.
I'm not denying that now.
The video that I was showing | | 11 | here, I downloaded it from online, and that video was made in | | 12 | my apartment. | | 13 | Q.
Mr. Guo, where is the video now? | | 14 | A.
I don't know.
I actually have never seen the entire video. | | 15 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you received a subpoena, didn't you, for every | | 16 | audio or video recording you had of meetings with Chinese | | 17 | officials?
Do you recall that? | | 18 | A.
Yes. | | 19 | And you produced nothing in response to that subpoena,
Q. | | 20 | correct? | | 21 | A.
I believe that we have provided everything. | | 22 | Q.
I guess, I take it, you did not keep a copy of the video, | | 23 | did you? | | 24 | A.
No. | | 25 | This was a pretty important meeting that you wanted to
Q. | L4MKEAS3 Guo - Cross 168 publicize, though, wasn't it? 1 A. Well, I did not want to publicize it, and, in fact, I did not know that there was such a video. That day, we had a meeting several hours all day, and I did not know that -- why that it would appear on the internet, I did not know why it was actually the CCP would have it, and, even today, I did not see the entire video. That's all I know. 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. Mr. Guo, is this the meeting in which you say that Chinese officials tried to kidnap you and take you back to China? A. Well, you know, that day, we had the meeting for many hours. What you said is really just a little bit of what happened. They have mentioned many times during that meeting that they have a lot of resources in the United States, and they have a lot of business, a lot of organizations, and a lot of businesses that can have me kidnapped and have me killed, so that I need to work with them. And during that meeting, they had me sign a lot of blank paper and guarantee letter, and, also, that I need to make sure that my wife and daughter return to China at the end of August. So, many things happened during that meeting. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. Well, Mr. Guo, do you deny now that they actually tried to take you out of the building? 21 22 A. I don't quite understand what you mean. 23 Q. Mr. Guo, isn't it true that, in this meeting, your wife made dumplings for the officials. 24 25 |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | A.
Yes. | | 2 | Q.
And then you walked the group out of the building, correct? | | 3 | A.
Yes. | | 4 | Now, you testified yesterday that a transcription of what
Q. | | 5 | we called -- well, first of all, a document that we've called | | 6 | video 8 was an accurate recording of part of the meeting, and | | 7 | then you walked through the transcript of video 8, which was | | 8 | Exhibit 114B, starting at page 1362, with Eastern Profit's | | 9 | counsel. | | 10 | Do you recall that? | | 11 | A.
Yes. | | 12 | Q.
And just to refresh your memory, I'm going to bring up at | | 13 | least the first page.
This is a bit of a long transcription. | | 14 | Here we go. | | 15 | As you can see, it started right here.
It comes from | | 16 | a YouTube link that you had actually viewed at your deposition. | | 17 | Do you recall that? | | 18 | A.
Yes. | | 19 | At your deposition, you also viewed a second clip, which
Q. | | 20 | was video 9, and it was also transcribed.
It starts at page | | 21 | 1377. | | 22 | MR. GREIM:
Can you go there, Becka. | | 23 | Q.
Do you recall that? | | 24 | A.
Yes. | | 25 | So, Mr. Guo, I'm going to ask you a few questions both
Q. | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | about video 8 and also about video 9, the transcription of | | 2 | which starts at SVUS 1377. | | 3 | And you will see, Mr. Guo, the very beginning remarks | | 4 | that were recorded in this clip, at least, come from Liu | | 5 | Yanping, and he begins the conversation by talking about the | | 6 | 19th National Congress. | | 7 | Do you see that? | | 8 | A.
Yes. | | 9 | Q.
And then he says, "Let's get this thing over with.
Why | | 10 | have many cases?
Besides, it's not a big issue.
I calculated | | 11 | your assets.
After you pay the debts, you'll still have some | | 12 | assets left." | | 13 | Did I read that right? | | 14 | THE INTERPRETER:
Counsel, where is it?
I actually | | 15 | don't -- | | 16 | MR. GREIM:
Okay.
Let me back up and be a little more | | 17 | careful here. | | 18 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 19 | So, do you see, Mr. Guo, on the far left-hand column, there
Q. | | 20 | is a timestamp that tells you the section of the video that the | | 21 | transcriber and interpreter is quoting from?
Do you see that? | | 22 | A.
Yes. | | 23 | Q.
The next column has the speaker? | | 24 | A.
Yes. | | 25 | The third column has just a transcription of what was said
Q. | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | in Chinese, correct? | | 2 | A.
Yes. | | 3 | Q.
And then the fourth column has the English translation, | | | | | 4 | right? | | 5 | A.
Yes. | | 6 | Q.
And yesterday, you spoke with Eastern Profit's attorney | | 7 | using this transcription, right? | | 8 | A.
Yes. | | 9 | MR. GREIM:
So I would just ask the interpreter to | | 10 | just interpret what I say from English into Chinese. | | 11 | Q.
So, Mr. Liu Yanping, at the 30-second mark, says, "The | | 12 | conditions of your capital and asset are still very good.
Your | | 13 | company is one of the private enterprises.
To write it this | | 14 | way, to be honest, it's rare in China they do that." | | 15 | Do you see that? | | 16 | A.
Yes, I see that. | | 17 | Q.
And then you responded, "That's too little.
See, how is it | | 18 | possible my debt is only making up 20 percent of my assets." | | 19 | Correct? | | 20 | A.
I don't understand.
Are you asking me a question? | | 21 | Q.
Yes.
I'm asking you whether you said that. | | 22 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 23 | MR. GREIM:
Now, yesterday, this witness answered | | 24 | questions off of this exhibit.
I don't understand -- well, let | | 25 | me state that differently.
I think I do have to object to the | L4MKEAS3 Guo - Cross 168 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 20 21 22 25 good-faith basis here, because, otherwise, we can't do anything else with this exhibit. 1 2 THE COURT: Mr. Klein, what's the basis? He did answer questions about this precise transcript and this precise meeting. MR. KLEIN: I believe, your Honor, he indicated that he sees his initials there. He was asked whether he saw his name on the first page; I think he said he did. I think the original question that was asked, I think, do you see this. I don't have any problem with him answering that he sees that, that he sees his initials there. The document is what it is, it speaks for itself, and he can certainly confirm what he sees on the document. I think if he's being asked today to affirm whether he did or didn't say something that is in the document, I think he has a right to invoke if he doesn't want to make that affirmation in court, but I understand that, certainly, if he's asked about whether certain things appear on the document next to his name, he can certainly answer that. 14 15 16 17 18 19 THE COURT: Do you have the testimony from yesterday? MS. DONNELLI: Yes. MR. GREIM: We do. THE COURT: If somebody can tell me where it is, I'll pull it up. 23 24 MR. GREIM: Your Honor, it seems to be on page 630. THE COURT: Okay. My law clerk is helping me find it. MR. GREIM: He does seem to have answered whether those things were said to him. 1 2 3 THE COURT: Just give me a moment. (Pause) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Mr. Klein, he was asked, at page 629 of this transcript, whether it reflects a conversation back and forth between Mr. Liu and then the witness, is that his understanding. He answered that question yes. So he didn't just subscribe to his name being on it, but he said it was the conversation. And then on page 630, after being read a portion of the transcript, he was asked the question did he, referring to Mr. Liu, say those things to you, and he answered yes. I don't see how this is anything other than a selective invocation and impermissible invocation of the Fifth, but why don't you explain it to me, how he can agree that a portion of the conversation -- actually, the whole -- that whole segment was a conversation he had, but then when Strategic's counsel asks the question, refuse to answer the question. MR. KLEIN: Your Honor, I think we've been -- I don't have the transcript in front of me, I don't see exactly what the portion is that he was asked about, but I believe that - can I just -- I'm not clear on -- when someone is asked about a transcript and says, you know, I see that my name appears 168 L4MKEAS3 Guo - Cross there, I'm not denying my name is there, or that this was a conversation between us, and then answers a question to indicate that the transcript reflects that something was said -- maybe I'm splitting a hair too finely -- THE COURT: No, I understand the distinction. MR. KLEIN: Yes. THE COURT: And I will have somebody give you the transcript, but when the question is did he say those things to you, full stop, he's not being asked the question, do you see your name on the document; he's being asked an historical question, did he say those things to you. He was represented by counsel, by you, he invoked a whole bunch of times; he did not invoke to that question and the preceding question. MR. KLEIN: Right. THE COURT: So I'll ask the transcript be given to you, I'll let you confer with your client -- MR. KLEIN: Okay. THE COURT: -- but you're going to have a tough burden to explain to me why there's a good-faith invocation. MR. KLEIN: Understood, your Honor. THE COURT: Can somebody give Mr. Klein pages 629 to 630? (Pause) MR. KLEIN: I took a look at those pages, your Honor. I understand -- your Honor's correct, he was 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 L4MKEAS3 Guo - Cross 168 recollecting a portion of the conversation. It's a portion of the conversation that related to a totally different topical area. It related to questions or a discussion about safety-related issues. I think the portion of the transcript that they're asking about now is a portion -- it's a different topical area, and it's a question about his assets. That's something that we have been invoking on across the board. I understand what the Court is saying, that this is the same conversation that he had with a particular individual, but it touched upon many topics, and we're invoking with respect to certain topical areas. And even with respect to those topical areas, I don't have a problem with him confirming that it's obviously on the page, but the invocation is -- I don't view it as selective because I view it as tethering consistently to certain topical areas that we've been invoking on. THE COURT: Let me see the limits of your invocation. Will he invoke as to questions about whether he, in fact, said the things that the transcript reflects that he said? MR. KLEIN: I think with respect to certain select areas, the intention is for him to invoke across the board with regard to those select areas. And I'm leery of starting to try to slice the bread thinly, and maybe I'm mistaken, your Honor, but to the extent that he starts answering any questions about ### L4MKEAS3 Guo - Cross 168 those topical areas, we now veer towards a scenario where an argument can be made that we're creeping towards waiver, and I think it's cleaner to stay away from that. To the extent that there are questions about topics that we're not invoking, I'm letting him answer freely. And we're not denying that the page says what it says, but I think we're in a little bit -- I understand what the Court is saying, which is that the text is obviously on the page, but from my perspective, it's on the page, it's there, no one is denying it's there, and the witness has certain constitutional rights that I'm seeking to protect. 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Greim, here's what I'm going to do: You're going to have to ask the questions, the witness will invoke as to what the witness invokes, and if you ask me to at the end of his testimony, I will leave his testimony open to address whether there's a good-faith invocation of the Fifth. If there's not a good-faith invocation, we'll come back, and he will answer the questions that you've posed to him as to which he's invoked, and if there is, and I determine that there is a good-faith invocation, then that will be it. But this is too delicate a matter for me to resolve right here. Mr. Klein is right, to the extent that he says that when you run the risk of trenching on constitutional rights, you have to proceed with care. |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 2 | Q.
Now, Mr. Guo, yesterday, you testified to a portion of | | 3 | this -- a small portion of this meeting in which your family | | 4 | was discussed, correct? | | 5 | A.
Yes. | | 6 | Q.
But most of your conversation with Liu Yanping was about | | 7 | your assets, correct? | | 8 | A.
No.
So I need to -- no, I need to clarify one thing here. | | 9 | You know, from that conversation that we had, there was a term | | 10 | here, it says, "write like this."
I want to point out to you | | 11 | where it is. | | 12 | So, there was a term here, it says, "write like this." | | 13 | That is to say that he had me writing multiple guarantee | | 14 | letters according to his thought. | | 15 | And, also, I want to tell you that there is this | | 16 | transcript recording the audio that we've seen, but the thing | | 17 | is that there is a large portion of time during the interview | | 18 | that he took me out to the restroom, to the elevator, and had | | 19 | conversation over there, and those conversations were actually | | 20 | not being recorded. | | 21 | Q.
Mr. Guo, let's turn to page 1363.
If you look down at | | 22 | minute 3:30, you'll see Liu Yanping says, "It comes after | | 23 | solving the matters.
After solving the problems, I can here to | | 24 | assure you that first resolve the problems.
Second, after the | | 25 | problem is solved, if you are still willing to make | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | contributions to our nation." | | 2 | Is that what he said to you? | | 3 | A.
Yes. | | 4 | And then you responded, "Of course, I'm very willing to do
Q. | | 5 | it, if conditions allow me to do so," didn't you? | | 6 | A.
But I did not see this in the Chinese. | | 7 | Q.
You have to go to the next page. | | 8 | A.
Well, yes, I said that, but the thing is that it's also | | 9 | said if the conditions allowed.
The condition I mention here, | | 10 | I always insisted, was that CCP does not equal to China.
The | | 11 | China, the nation that I recognize, is a China that has one | | 12 | person, one vote, and that is a China -- my nation. | | 13 | THE COURT:
Mr. Guo, I'm going to direct you to just | | 14 | answer the questions that are asked.
You'll have an | | 15 | opportunity, when Eastern's counsel asks you questions, to | | 16 | clarify or add anything that you want to. | | 17 | Go ahead, Mr. Greim. | | 18 | THE WITNESS:
(In English)
Yes, your Honor. | | 19 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 20 | Q.
Now, Mr. Guo, by this time, your whole family was back in | | 21 | New York, weren't they? | | 22 | A.
When you're talking about the whole family, what does it | | 23 | mean?
Who does it include? | | 24 | Q.
Okay.
Let me be more specific.
Your wife, your son, and | | 25 | your daughter were all back in New York by this time, weren't | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | they? | | 2 | A.
No.
My son wasn't here. | | 3 | Q.
He wasn't in China, though, was he? | | 4 | That's correct.
A. | | 5 | Q.
He was in London, wasn't he? | | 6 | A.
Yes. | | 7 | Q.
Mr. Guo, please turn to page 1387. | | 8 | MR. GREIM:
Now, I'm going to read a long comment from | | 9 | Mr. Guo, so I am going to break it in half, and I'm going to | | 10 | ask Mr. Guo each time whether he said it. | | 11 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you said, did you not, "He said, but Wengui, don't | | 12 | go to extremes.
He was trying to persuade me not to go against | | 13 | the Communist Party and Xi yesterday.
He asked me to admit | | 14 | publicly that I'm not against the party.
I said I have never | | 15 | said I'm against the party, neither have I said that I love the | | 16 | party, but I hope I will be given a reason in the future not to | | 17 | go against the party.
I hope one day I can close my Twitter | | 18 | account and go back to my normal life without speaking up in | | 19 | videos.
I will not make any decisions before the 19th National | | 20 | Congress.
I want to see if after the 19th National Congress, | | 21 | Meng Jianzhu and Wang Qishan have any positions.
If so, it's | | 22 | impossible that they will let me off.
I know this too well." | | 23 | That's what you said to Liu Yanping, isn't it, | | 24 | Mr. Guo? | | 25 | THE INTERPRETER:
So, I read it. | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | THE WITNESS:
Yes. | | 2 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 3 | Q.
That's what you said, isn't it, Mr. Guo? | | 4 | It was I repeating someone's phone call to me, and I was
A. | | 5 | actually repeating what he said over the phone to someone, so | | 6 | that is why I said here "he said." | | 7 | Q.
Mr. Guo, this is a statement you made to Liu Yanping, isn't | | 8 | it? | | 9 | A.
I was repeating to someone what we said -- I said to Liu | | 10 | Yanping. | | 11 | Q.
And you say, Mr. Guo, in here that you told someone else, | | 12 | "I have never said I'm against the party, neither have I said | | 13 | that I love the party," right? | | 14 | A.
But it's quite different from what you just said.
I said | | 15 | I -- they want me to publicly admit that I don't go against the | | 16 | Chinese Communist Party, so I said that I now did not say that | | 17 | I am anti the CCP, but I did not say that I love the CCP | | 18 | either.
That's what is said here. | | 19 | And, Mr. Guo, you also said that if Meng Jianzhu and Wang
Q. | | 20 | Qishan have any positions after that 19th National Congress, | | 21 | it's impossible they will let you off.
That's what you said, | | 22 | right? | | 23 | THE INTERPRETER:
The interpreter was corrected. | | 24 | A.
That's correct. | | 25 | And then you went on:
Q.
"To be frank, I don't want to waste | L4MKEAS3 Guo - Cross 168 your time. If they're gone, and this generation comes into power, people like you can still survive. I will definitely announce that I'm not against the party, President Xi, the state, and the nation. I will add that I'm not against the Communist Party. Then I will close my Twitter account, and everything will turn around for the better, I'm sure. I will lead a normal life. I'm happy about this." 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 You said that, didn't you? A. Well, you see, the thing is that I was on the phone with someone else, so that is why it's mentioned here, if you are here, and those people were no longer here, you, meaning the person who's over the phone talking with me, and he's actually someone of a high official in China. So if he was here, and those people were gone, that I will be willing to say I am not against the Chinese Communist Party. So I was repeating a conversation I had with someone else. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 168 L4MPEAS4 Kwok - Cross | 1 | Q.
And, Mr. Guo, your concern was -- your ultimate concern was | |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 2 | whether Wang Qishan and his faction retained power after the | | 3 | 19th National Congress, correct? | | 4 | A.
Yes, because over the phone, I said that those were the | | 5 | people who were the dictators, and those were the people that | | 6 | who were -- so they should not be our leader and that also they | | 7 | were the corruption; so they should not be our leaders. | | 8 | Q.
Now, Mr. Guo, you then told the Liu Yanping that if he | | 9 | wanted to keep your son in custody, he could go ahead and do | | 10 | it, didn't you? | | 11 | I don't see it here.
A. | | 12 | Q.
I'm sorry.
Let's go to page 1388.
Do you see at the top? | | 13 | A.
So in here, I continue the conversation with the other | | 14 | person over the phone, and it was actually talking about that | | 15 | it was during May that my daughter and my wife came to | | 16 | New York.
Liu Yanping took them to New York, my wife and my | | 17 | daughter, in May, and he asked me to write this guaranteed | | 18 | letter that my wife and my daughter will return to China in | | 19 | August 27th, in fact, August 27th.
And so otherwise, they are | | 20 | going to have my son detained.
And so I said, well, if my wife | | 21 | and daughter, if they want to go back to China, let them go | | 22 | back to China.
If they want to detain my son, let them do | | 23 | that.
I would not compromise. | | 24 | Q.
Mr. Guo, let's go to page 1394.
I want to direct your | | 25 | attention to minute 31:30, and do you see, you say:
"They now | 168 | | L4MPEAS4
Kwok - Cross | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | say that description was wrong.
If I have gotten into the | | 2 | blind alley, I would not still be alive today.
I want to be | | 3 | honest.
Today, I meet with you.
Let's not talk about grand | | 4 | theories but just something practical.
Let's get down to | | 5 | business."
Is that what you told Liu Yanping? | | 6 | A.
What -- I did say something like that, but again, it was in | | 7 | context with what I had said before.
It was -- I was repeating | | 8 | something that was said. | | 9 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you were bargaining with him over your assets, | | 10 | though, weren't you? | | 11 | A.
I am invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | 12 | Well, Mr. Guo -- okay.
Q.
Let's just forge ahead.
Let's go | | 13 | to page 1425.
As we're going there, let me just ask you a | | 14 | couple of questions to clear up for the record.
Liu Yanping is | | 15 | the Deputy Minister of State Security; is that correct? | | 16 | A.
He is the Deputy Minister and then also the Secretary of -- | | 17 | THE INTERPRETER:
The Ministry? | | 18 | (Pause) | | 19 | A.
And then he is also the Secretary of the Disciplinary | | 20 | Committee and also the Secretary of Law and Political | | 21 | Committee. | | 22 | Q.
Who was on the telephone with you at the same time as this | | 23 | conversation? | | 24 | A.
It was a general in the military in China who was arrested | | 25 | already. | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
What was his name? | | 2 | A.
Are you asking his name? | | 3 | Q.
Yes. | | | | | 4 | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, can I confer with him? | | 5 | THE COURT:
Yes. | | 6 | (Pause) | | 7 | How much more, Mr. Grimes? | | 8 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, I think I have another half | | 9 | hour.
I'm just going to withdraw the question to move on. | | 10 | THE COURT:
Mr. Klein, your conference is done.
He's | | 11 | withdrawing the question. | | 12 | MR. KLEIN:
I'm sorry? | | 13 | THE COURT:
Your conference is done.
The question has | | 14 | been withdrawn. | | 15 | MR. KLEIN:
Okay. | | 16 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, on page 1425 now, I want to direct you to hour | | 18 | one, minute 18 in the middle of the page, and do you see that | | 19 | you -- or did you tell Liu Yanping:
"The first I have evidence | | 20 | of Comrade Wang Qishan and his family holding huge amounts of | | 21 | illegal acquired HNA shares, overseas real estate and also | | 22 | evidence of his illicit relationships with women.
I will | | 23 | report it to the party central committee."
You said that, | | 24 | right? | | 25 | Yes.
A. | | | | L4MPEAS4 Kwok - Cross 168 | 1 | Q.
And we'll skip down a few lines.
You say:
"Secondly, | |----|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 2 | besides Comrade Wang Qishan, I also have information about a | | 3 | few people in the Politburo and the former standing committee | | 4 | who hold large amounts of assets and illegal funds in sands | | 5 | deposits overseas."
Did you say that to Liu Yanping? | | 6 | A.
Yes. | | 7 | Q.
And you go on to say:
"They also have illicit sexual | | 8 | relations with woman and illegitimate children.
I want to | | 9 | report to the central committee in the spirit of supporting | | 10 | President Xi's anticorruption campaign.
If President Xi | | 11 | promotes them to the standing committee, I know two of them who | | 12 | will enter the standing committee together.
Then President | | 13 | Xi's life might be in danger."
Did you tell that to Liu | | 14 | Yanping? | | 15 | A.
Yes. | | 16 | Q.
Isn't this the same type of information you asked Strategic | | 17 | Vision to find a few months after this? | | 18 | A.
Related. | | 19 | Q.
And you wanted to use that information to oust Wang Qishan, | | 20 | correct? | | 21 | A.
No. | | 22 | Q.
You wanted to oust his clique from within the CCP, didn't | | 23 | you? | | 24 | A.
No. | | 25 | Let's pull up -- now we're going to switch gears, and let's
Q. | | | | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 21 ### L4MPEAS4 Kwok - Cross 168 go to videos one and four. We'll start video four. For the record, let's see, let's start with DX76A. Frankly, you should start with this. MR. GREIM: And, your Honor, this is DX76A, a declaration by Xiaoping Chen, Sam Chen, executed on January 17th, 2020. That's the declaration for this Court, to establish that two different YouTube links are true and correct recordings of interviews that Mingjing, or Mirror Media, took and kept in the course of its business as a TV station. And so it's the very first of those items, the very first YouTube link that he identifies on this August 31, 2017, interview that we're going to be moving to next. So I wanted to begin with this declaration and move the declaration itself into evidence. THE COURT: I'll take it subject to a motion to strike, but what's the evidentiary basis for my receipt of this? MR. GREIM: Well, your Honor, this is the custodial affidavit to -- it's one of the ways to authenticate this video which we're about to show the witness. 18 19 20 THE COURT: Okay. (Defendant's Exhibit DX76A received in evidence) BY MR. GREIM: Q. Okay. Let's now go ahead and pull up video four. We're going to put a video up that is transcribed at DX114B. Don't 22 23 24 25 |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | hit play just yet.
And the transcription begins at page 1320, | | | | | 2 | SBUS1320, of this video four, which is in Exhibit 114B.
I'm | | 3 | not going to -- obviously, this is a 31-minute video. | | 4 | Mr. Guo, you were shown this video at your deposition, | | 5 | were you not? | | 6 | A.
Yes. | | 7 | Q.
And why don't we just play the first 30 seconds. | | 8 | (Video being played) | | 9 | Now, I had to find a good place to stop. | | 10 | Mr. Guo, do you recognize this as the first page of a | | 11 | letter that you wrote to Secretary Liu Yanping | | 12 | A.
I must clarify one thing with you.
Some such letters I | | 13 | have signed many times of the different versions of it, and | | 14 | also, for the video that just played, there were many versions | | 15 | of such video repeated online.
So I don't know whether this is | | 16 | the real version, but anyway, this letter, it was I who | | 17 | initiated it during the interview with Mirror Media. | | 18 | Q.
So you came to Mirror to discuss the letter; is that | | 19 | correct? | | 20 | A.
No, not discuss this letter.
It was that because they | | 21 | ask -- because my wife and my daughter, they want my wife and | | 22 | daughter returned to China in three months, and I don't want my | | 23 | wife and daughter returned.
So there was this letter, a | | 24 | guarantee letter to exchange that. | | 25 | And the premise of this letter that I show in Mirror | L4MPEAS4 Kwok - Cross 168 | 1 | TV is also because before that time, there were many versions | |----|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 2 | of similar letters circulated around.
But if you were looking | | 3 | at this clearly, more carefully, the content of those letters | | 4 | were different.
Each page was different.
Some were saying | | 5 | this and some were saying that.
So I went to Mirror and showed | | 6 | them this is the letter. | | 7 | Q.
So, in other words, the letter that you brought to Mirror | | 8 | was the authentic letter, correct? | | 9 | A.
Well, the letter I brought to Mirror was the authentic one, | | 10 | but I don't know the one that you're showing now, this one was | | 11 | that one or not.
And I tell you that from March, April, all | | 12 | the way to 27th of August, all together I have been made to | | 13 | sign five different versions of such letter. | | 14 | THE COURT:
Mr. Guo, please confine yourself to | | 15 | answering the questions being asked. | | 16 | THE WITNESS:
(In English)
Yes, sir, your Honor. | | 17 | MR. GREIM:
Why don't we try to save a little time | | 18 | here, and let's pull up -- rather than going through the video | | 19 | version of this -- actually, let's go to the five-and-a-half | | 20 | minute mark. | | 21 | THE COURT:
Is there a transcript of this, Mr. Greim? | | 22 | MR. GREIM:
There is.
This is the Exhibit 114B.
We | | 23 | started on page 13:20 and now I'm flipping to page 13:21. | | 24 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 25 | Q.
So, Mr. Guo, we're going to look at a transcript as you | | | | 168 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. L4MPEAS4 Kwok - Cross walk through a letter page by page. We'll try not to go through your entire discussion to save time, but I want to start at the very beginning of where you began to pick through the letter. So let's go to minute five-and-a-half. (Video being played) Okay. We're going to have to pause because I'm afraid we can't get it to go to a certain spot. This is the only way to do it. I'm afraid we're going to have to go back to second 30. And, Mr. Guo, the program actually does show each page of the letter so that everyone can view it. So we're just going to have to go back and play it. First of all, Mr. Guo, is this -- we paused it at, it looks like, at about actually the 30-second mark is really what that is. Do you recognize your signature in the bottom right-hand corner? A. Yes. Q. And is that the date, 8-26? A. Yes. Q. And let's go to the second page. Just fast forward until we get there. (Video being played) Okay. This is the second page? A. Yes. Q. And does this appear to be the second page of the real 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (212) 805-0300 |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | letter? | | 2 | A.
Yes. | | 3 | Q.
And that's your signature at the bottom, or your signature | | 4 | at the bottom right-hand corner? | | 5 | A.
Yes. | | 6 | Q.
Let's go to the third page. | | 7 | (Video being played) | | 8 | Mr. Guo, please review that and let us know if this | | 9 | appears to be the third page of the letter. | | 10 | A.
Well, you see the top of this page is quite similar to some | | 11 | of the versions circulated online, and so I don't quite | | | | | 12 | remember those several lines in the authentic letter right now. | | 13 | So I cannot be so certain about the authenticity of this page | | 14 | 3. | | 15 | Q.
Okay.
Let's go to page 4.
And do you recognize this page? | | 16 | A.
I believe this is. | | 17 | Q.
Okay.
Next page.
And do you recognize your signature on | | 18 | this, the final page? | | 19 | This signature, it should be mine.
A. | | 20 | Q.
And, Mr. Guo, we didn't play it to save time, but while | | 21 | each page showed on the program, you spoke about it and | | 22 | discussed the contents, correct? | | 23 | A.
We took most of it. | | 24 | Q.
And in this letter you asked President Xi to assign you | | 25 | tasks, didn't you? | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
No, it wasn't what I wrote.
This is actually pre-written | | 2 | by Liu Yanping. | | | | | 3 | Q.
Is it your testimony you did not say that in this letter? | | 4 | Well, the whole reason I went on to that program was to
A. | | 5 | tell that this is not a letter that I wrote, and what's inside | | 6 | this letter was not my thought or my opinion. | | 7 | You see, the thing is that it was pre-written, and so | | 8 | I was asked to sign this letter under duress.
And as you can | | 9 | also see, that at the end of this letter saying that Guo Wengui | | 10 | submitted with reference -- with reverence. | | 11 | The thing is, first of all, I couldn't have typed | | 12 | those words.
I don't know how to type.
And also, that I had | | 13 | already been applying for asylum; so this is just at the | | 14 | juncture of the 19th of the Congress.
They asked me to sign | | 15 | this letter they had written to show Xi Jinping faith. | | 16 | Q.
I have no -- that was to be a "yes" or "no" question. | | 17 | MR. GREIM:
Check interpreter, you can go ahead and | | 18 | speak for the record so we can hear it. | | 19 | MR. YANG:
I believe what the witness had said was the | | 20 | asylum application was submitted on September the 9th -- I'm | | 21 | sorry, September the 6th. | | 22 | THE INTERPRETER:
The witness also says:
My asylum | | 23 | case was submitted on September the 6th. | | 24 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 25 | Mr. Guo, you told President Xi that you never crossed the
Q. | | | | |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | red line in this letter, didn't you? | | MR. KLEIN:
Your Honor, may I confer with my client? | | THE COURT:
Yes. | | (Pause) | | Mr. Guo, do you need the question back? | | THE WITNESS:
You mean the question just now? | | THE COURT:
Yes. | | THE WITNESS:
(In English)
Yes, your Honor. | | THE COURT:
Would the court reporter read back the | | question, please? | | (Record read) | | A.
No, because it was not written by me. | | Q.
All right.
Let me rephrase the question. | | On the third page of the letter that you signed, the | | letter says:
"I didn't cross the red line," correct? | | A.
I didn't write them. | | THE COURT:
Mr. Guo, let me ask you a question.
Did | | you sign a letter to President Xi saying "I didn't cross the | | red line"? | | THE WITNESS:
Yes, I did sign such a letter. | | BY MR. GREIM: | | Q.
And, Mr. Guo, "red line" meant that you didn't put out | | videos and leak the national intelligence network, correct? | | A.
No, that wasn't what I meant, and also, it wasn't my | | meaning at all.
And none of these words were written by me. | | | L4MPEAS4 Kwok - Cross 168 Q. But you explained, Mr. Guo, to the host exactly what that meant, didn't you? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. So you see the thing is that I was exactly explaining the opposite to the host. You see, I -- this is the letter prepared by Liu Yanping. I could not have possibly written a letter to Xi Jinping. I was explaining to the host of the program that I was forced to sign this letter, and then my -- what I thought is completely the opposite of what is purported in this letter. You see, I was forced to sign this letter because they want my wife and my daughter returned to China after three months, and also, at the time, I had already filed for asylum. In China, if I go back after I apply for the asylum, I would be sentenced to death. Q. Okay. So, Mr. Guo, is it your testimony that if we go through this entire video, we have to find the place in here where you tell Mr. Chen that you signed this letter under duress? You would have been very clear about that, right? THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, I'm not sure I understand. You said where it's called and to find the place? I didn't get that. Q. Mr. Guo, we ought to be able to read through this entire video, and we ought to be able to see somewhere in here where you tell Mr. Chen that you signed this letter under duress, correct? |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--|--|--| | 1 | A.
But I don't recall. | | | | | 2 | Q.
And so you would never have praised President Xi and say | | | | | 3 | that you wanted to have the opportunity to serve President Xi | | | | | 4 | in this interview, would you? | | | | | 5 | A.
Well, not necessarily because I may say that just to seek | | | | | 6 | to protect my family, and also, at the time, I was seeking | | | | | 7 | political asylum.
I was aware of the great danger that I was | | | | | 8 | in. | | | | | 9 | Q.
Now, you didn't actually apply for political asylum until | | | | | 10 | September.
You testified to that a few minutes ago, didn't | | | | | 11 | you? | | | | | 12 | A.
It was several days after I read this letter.
I saw this | | | | | 13 | letter, then I applied for asylum. | | | | | 14 | Q.
And because you signed this under duress, and you were | | | | | 15 | under such severe duress, you certainly would have shown this | | | | | 16 | letter -- you would have included this letter in your asylum | | | | | 17 | application, correct? | | | | | 18 | A.
Not necessarily because I have a lot of documents.
So it | | | | | 19 | may not have been included. | | | | | 20 | Q.
This maybe wasn't important enough to tell the U.S. | | | | | 21 | government about? | | | | | 22 | A.
Well, the thing is that I have provided a lot of documents | | | | | 23 | to the immigration lawyer; so whatever documents should be | | | | | 24 | submitted to the government, it was decided by the lawyer. | | | | | 25 | Including Lianchao Han, right?
Q. | | | | | | | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--|--| | 1 | A.
I don't quite understand what you mean by including | | | | 2 | Lianchao Han. | | | | 3 | Q.
We'll just move on. | | | | 4 | Mr. Guo, when you -- you testified that you first | | | | 5 | stayed in the U.S. permanently in early 2017; is that right? | | | | 6 | A.
Yes. | | | | 7 | Q.
I'm going to play a video for you.
This video is | | | | 8 | transcribed at DX114B.
It's video one, and the transcription | | | | 9 | goes from page 13:14 to 13:15.
I want you to listen carefully, | | | | 10 | Mr. Guo.
Then I'll have a few questions for you about it. | | | | 11 | (Video being played) | | | | 12 | Now, for the record, there was a transcription playing | | | | 13 | on the video because it came from YouTube.
Transcription of | | | | 14 | the defendants, however, is done by the same -- by Jessica Chu, | | | | 15 | who's transcribed everything.
That is what that 114B, page | | | | 16 | 13:14 to 13:15. | | | | 17 | My first question to you, Mr. Guo, is:
Is that your | | | | 18 | voice? | | | | 19 | I really cannot confirm that that is my voice because on
A. | | | | 20 | the internet there were a lot of imitations and then copy of my | | | | 21 | voice. | | | | 22 | Q.
Well, there were some very strong statements in that video, | | | | 23 | don't you agree? | | | | 24 | A.
So I can tell you a hundred percent what has been said | | | | 25 | there was all fabricated.
They are all untrue, and even at the | | | | | | | | L4MPEAS4 Kwok - Cross of 168 | 1 | end, he said the times three, times ten.
If such is true, then | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------|--|--|--| | 2 | why can't they say it out loud?
So it's all fabricated. | | | | | 3 | Q.
Mr. Guo, are you able to deny to us on the record, under | | | | | 4 | oath, that that is your voice in that recording? | | | | | 5 | A.
Well, first of all, whether that was my voice or not, | | | | | 6 | whether that was genuinely my voice or not is one problem. | | | | | 7 | Another thing is that it could be my true voice; however, they | | | | | 8 | could just have linked up different words of my voice and edit | | | | | 9 | it into this video. | | | | | 10 | Q.
Okay.
Let me ask a different -- | | | | | 11 | THE COURT:
Mr. Guo, was that your voice on the video? | | | | | 12 | THE WITNESS:
Well, it's hard for me to identify | | | | | 13 | because there were so many of those things in circulation | | | | | 14 | online made like that.
I can't identify whether it was my | | | | | 15 | voice or not. | | | | | 16 | BY MR. GREIM: | | | | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you have many times attacked someone named Xi Nuo | | | | | 18 | online, correct? | | | | | 19 | A.
Well, I don't quite understood what you mean by attack. | | | | | 20 | Well, in fact, I was the one who had been attacked the most by | | | | | 21 | this Xi Nuo person.
But I don't know what you are saying when | | | | | 22 | you say attack.
What do you mean? | | | | | 23 | Q.
Do you have a nickname for this person, Xi Nuo? | | | | | 24 | A.
But it wasn't a nickname I gave him.
He was named Xi Nuo. | | | | | 25 | Q.
So that's what you call him? | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
Yes. | | 2 | Q.
Did you ever call him "Shit Nuo"? | | 3 | A.
I am just a follower of what other people online called | | 4 | him, but he called me something -- I'm not going into that | | 5 | here. | | 6 | Q.
Okay.
Is it fair to say you have a long-running dispute | | 7 | with this man? | | 8 | A.
He always -- he has been threatening me all along. | | 9 | Starting from 2015, four years, five years now.
He always been | | 10 | talking about it online, saying that having me killed, having | | 11 | me captured to China.
He's been saying that. | | 12 | Q.
Mr. Guo, you testified yesterday that you've done thousands | | 13 | of online videos, correct? | | 14 | A.
Yes. | | 15 | Q.
Isn't one of your main activities attacking other Chinese | | 16 | in the U.S.? | | 17 | A.
But I have never initiated any attack to any Chinese | | 18 | person.
Always it was that they who attacked me, then I | | 19 | retaliate. | | 20 | Q.
You have attacked many Chinese dissidents online, haven't | | 21 | you? | | 22 | A.
Well, the persons that I attacked, the persons they do | | 23 | attack me, and the persons I have retaliation against, the | | 24 | ratio in between these two numbers are very, very different. | | 25 | Mr. Guo, you also used Guo Media to attack Chinese in the
Q. | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--|--| | 1 | United States? | | | | 2 | A.
I have never attacked.
I was always on the side of | | | | 3 | retaliation. | | | | 4 | Do you own Guo Media?
Q. | | | | 5 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | | | 6 | Q.
Do you know who does own it? | | | | 7 | A.
I'm invoking the Fifth Amendment. | | | | 8 | Q.
Have you attacked Bob Fu online? | | | | 9 | A.
I have never taken -- I have never initiated any attacks on | | | | 10 | any person, only under attack under the natural protection do I | | | | 11 | retaliate.
And also, there were millions of people or up to | | | | 12 | million people online who were attacking me, and I wrote -- | | | | 13 | it's not possible that I would retaliate against every one of | | | | 14 | them either.
So it is really the strategy of the Chinese | | | | 15 | Communist Party, that unrestricted warfare; so it's containing | | | | 16 | all of the government's reports. | | | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, have you encouraged your followers to harass Bob | | | | 18 | Fu at his home? | | | | 19 | Impossible.
A. | | | | 20 | Q.
Have you encouraged your followers to harass Sasha Gong? | | | | 21 | A.
Absolutely impossible. | | | | 22 | Q.
Have you accused Sasha Gong of being a communist spy? | | | | 23 | A.
It was after she called me a spy, then I retaliate. | | | | 24 | Q.
What about Bob Fu, he's a pastor, isn't he? | | | | 25 | Absolutely not a pastor.
A.
He's a communist party member. | | | | | | | | | L4MPEAS4 | Kwok - Cross | | |----------|--------------|--| | | | | Q. Mr. Guo, isn't it a large portion of your activity since that recording we saw in April 2017, to attack dissidents in this country? 1 2 3 A. It is purely lies. So it is a complete lie because, as you can see, that from April 19th that 99 percent of my activities was engaged in activities against the communist party, exposing them of the deeds that they have done in Hong Kong, Xin Jiang, and Tibet. I'm exposing the truth about the virus. I would not have time to engage in any of such activities on attacking the dissidents or overseas dissidents. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. Mr. Guo, in that recording we just listened to a few moments ago, you said you wanted to go back to China after showing merit, right? 11 12 13 A. I don't recall that. 14 25 Q. And, Mr. Guo, you wanted to get research in evidence in order to take out the Wang Qishan faction of the CCP, correct? A. No. 15 16 17 Q. And you wanted to do that so you could return to China and resume your former way of life; isn't that right? 18 19 A. Absolutely impossible. If that is the case, CCP would not have threatened or arrest my family. So as long as CCP and Xi Jinping exist, it's impossible for me to return to China. Q. And you've never stopped working with the MSS, have you, 20 21 22 sir? 23 24 A. I don't really know what you're talking about. It's |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | absolutely rubbish. | | 2 | MR. GREIM:
I have no further questions. | | 3 | THE COURT:
Okay.
We'll take our afternoon break for | | 4 | ten minutes.
How long do you expect to have, Ms. Cline, on | | 5 | your redirect examination? | | 6 | MS. CLINE:
Probably about 15 minutes. | | 7 | THE COURT:
Okay.
And then we'll move to the last | | 8 | witness. | | 9 | Why don't you wipe off the podium. | | 10 | We're adjourned. | | 11 | (Recess) | | 12 | | | 13 | | | 14 | | | 15 | | | 16 | | | 17 | | | 18 | | | 19 | | | 20 | | | 21 | | | 22 | | | 23 | | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | | of 168 L4MKEAS5 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 25 THE COURT: Before we get started with testimony again, I've got a warning that I want the Chinese interpreter to repeat in Chinese out loud. 1 2 3 I have issued an order prohibiting any rebroadcast or recording of these proceedings. Anybody who violates that order is subjecting themselves to the risk of penalties for civil or criminal contempt. Thank you. Mr. Greim, you're standing up. You have something for the Court? MR. GREIM: Yes. I just wanted to briefly say, before I closed, I figured I better do it right this minute. I failed to move the entry of DX 114, video 9, translation and the translation for videos 1 and 4; DX 37, which is actually videos 1 and 4; and DX 35, which is a translation of the letter. I understand that Eastern Profit's counsel reserves all objections, including to authenticity. THE COURT: Okay. Those will be received subject to a motion to strike. 18 19 (Defendant's Exhibits 35, 37, and 114 received in evidence) 20 21 THE COURT: Mr. Greim, are you leaving open any questions with respect to the invocation of the Fifth, or are we beyond that issue? 22 23 24 MR. GREIM: Your Honor, we're not going to raise any |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | issues with the good-faith nature of the objections.
I think | | 2 | we probably will want to argue for an adverse inference on | | 3 | certain of those questions. | | 4 | THE COURT:
Very well. | | 5 | Ms. Cline, you may inquire. | | | | | 6 | REDIRECT EXAMINATION | | 7 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 8 | Q.
Mr. Guo, Mr. Greim asked you some questions about | | 9 | statements you allegedly made in support of the CCP in 2017. | | 10 | Did you, in fact, speak out publicly against the CCP | | 11 | in 2017 and 2018? | | 12 | A.
Yes. | | 13 | Q.
Were there videos of your statements published on social | | 14 | media? | | 15 | A.
Yes. | | 16 | Q.
I would like to show you a compilation of video clips in an | | 17 | exhibit that we've marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 52.
Before I | | 18 | do so, I'd like to know whether you had an opportunity to | | 19 | review the video compilation in advance of your testimony | | 20 | today? | | 21 | A.
Yes, I did. | | 22 | Q.
Does the compilation contain accurate excerpts of the | | 23 | videos actually posted on social media in 2017 and 2018? | | 24 | A.
Yes. | | 25 | MS. CLINE:
Can we please play PX 52. | |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | (Video playback) | | 2 | MS. CLINE:
Can we look now at PX 53, please. | | 3 | THE COURT:
Are you offering PX 52? | | 4 | MS. CLINE:
I was just going to tie it together with | | 5 | 53, if I may, your Honor? | | 6 | THE COURT:
Okay. | | 7 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 8 | Q.
And, Mr. Guo, as to PX 53, are the YouTube links for this | | 9 | Exhibit 53 reflective of where the full-length videos shown in | | 10 | the clip were actually posted? | | 11 | A.
Yes. | | 12 | MS. CLINE:
Your Honor, plaintiffs offer PX 52 and 53. | | 13 | MR. GREIM:
No objection, your Honor. | | 14 | THE COURT:
Okay.
Received. | | 15 | (Plaintiff's Exhibits 52 and 53 received in evidence) | | 16 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 17 | Q.
Mr. Guo, I have one more video to show, and it's shorter. | | 18 | This is a video of you.
It's a single video, but it's an | | 19 | excerpt from a video you made in July of 2018 in an exhibit | | 20 | we've called Exhibit 70A. | | 21 | Did you have an opportunity to review that in advance | | 22 | of your testimony today? | | 23 | A.
Yes. | | 24 | Q.
Other than being shortened, so that we could play it in | | 25 | court, is it an accurate reflection of a video that was posted | | | | |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | on YouTube? | | 2 | A.
Yes.
My answer is yes. | | 3 | MS. CLINE:
Can we please play Exhibit 70A. | | 4 | (Video playback) | | 5 | MS. CLINE:
Your Honor, plaintiffs offer | | 6 | Exhibit P 70A. | | 7 | THE COURT:
That's received subject to the motion to | | 8 | strike. | | 9 | (Plaintiff's Exhibit 70A received in evidence) | | 10 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 11 | Q.
Mr. Guo, what do you think of the implication that you're | | 12 | really a supporter of the Chinese Communist Party posing as a | | 13 | dissident? | | 14 | A.
Well, if I were truly the supporter of the Chinese | | 15 | Communist Party, then the registered spy in the United States, | | 16 | Elliott Broidy and Bruno Wu, they did not need to spend so much | | 17 | money and then to lobby a president or like Higginbotham from | | 18 | the DOJ to send me back into China. | | 19 | MS. CLINE:
No further questions. | | 20 | THE COURT:
Anything further? | | 21 | MR. GREIM:
No, your Honor. | | 22 | THE COURT:
Okay. | | 23 | You are excused, Mr. Guo. | | 24 | THE WITNESS:
So I don't need to say anything more? | | 25 | THE COURT:
No. | |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | L4MKEAS5 | | 1 | Thank you, Mr. Klein. | | 2 | MR. KLEIN:
Thank you, your Honor. | | 3 | THE WITNESS:
Thank you, your Honor.
Thank you, | | 4 | everybody. | | 5 | (Witness excused) | | 6 | THE COURT:
Next witness? | | 7 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, I think the next witness is | | 8 | the only witness being called by -- I know the next witness is | | 9 | the only witness being called by Strategic Vision.
We've made | | 10 | special arrangements for her, and so they are bringing her in | | 11 | as we speak. | | 12 | THE COURT:
Very well. | | 13 | Mr. Greim, for planning purposes, how long is your | | 14 | direct of her? | | 15 | MR. GREIM:
I will tell you I've radically pared it | | 16 | back, and so I think it may be about 30 minutes.
That's my | | 17 | goal.
There should be few, if any, exhibits. | | 18 | THE COURT:
We're going to finish her today. | | 19 | And, Mr. Greim, that will be the last witness; is that | | 20 | right? | | 21 | MR. GREIM:
That's right, your Honor. | | 22 | THE COURT:
And, Ms. Cline, I take it, you don't have | | 23 | any further witnesses? | | 24 | MS. CLINE:
Correct. | | 25 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, I discussed one thing with | | | | |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Ms. Cline during a break.
I wonder if we could use this quiet | | 2 | time to cover that issue about the 8:00 o'clock? | | 3 | THE COURT:
Sure. | | 4 | MR. GREIM:
We wanted to know whether the Court would | | 5 | maybe extend tonight's 8:00 o'clock deadline to a time | | 6 | tomorrow? | | 7 | THE COURT:
That's fine.
What time would you suggest | | 8 | tomorrow?
Did the two of you talk about it? | | 9 | MR. GREIM:
Actually, it may need to be a bit later | | 10 | tomorrow because we will be in the air on the way to Missouri. | | 11 | Maybe -- | | 12 | THE COURT:
Do you want to make it 8:00 o'clock | | 13 | tomorrow?
Does that work for you? | | 14 | MR. GREIM:
That would be great. | | 15 | THE COURT:
Does that work for plaintiff? | | 16 | MS. CLINE:
Yes.
Thank you, your Honor. | | 17 | THE COURT:
Has the witness entered the courtroom? | | 18 | THE WITNESS:
Yes. | | 19 | THE COURT:
Ma'am, you can step forward, please. | | 20 | THE WITNESS:
Sure. | | 21 | THE COURT:
You'll have a seat in the jury box. | | 22 | That's what we're using as the witness box. | | 23 | THE WITNESS:
Thank you. | | 24 | THE COURT:
You'll keep your mask on; you'll sit | | 25 | there.
Keep your mask on. | |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | THE WITNESS:
Question:
Do I need to keep a double | | 2 | mask or just one? | | 3 | THE COURT:
Is it a KN95? | | 4 | THE WITNESS:
It's not. | | 5 | THE COURT:
I think you need to keep both masks on. | | 6 | THE WITNESS:
Okay.
Thank you. | | 7 | MS. CLINE:
Your Honor, I'm sorry, may I correct | | 8 | something I said?
I just wanted to remind the Court, we still | | 9 | have the outstanding issue of Ms. Wang's testimony. | | 10 | THE COURT:
Yes, that's correct.
I forgot about that. | | 11 | Mr. Greim, I think, for the record, you should | | 12 | formally indicate the name of the witness you're calling, and | | 13 | then call the witness, and then we'll swear her in. | | 14 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, the defendants call Sasha | | 15 | Gong, G-o-n-g. | | 16 | THE COURT:
Good afternoon, Ms. Gong. | | 17 | Matt, would you please swear the witness. | | 18 | THE WITNESS:
Good afternoon. | | 19 | SASHA GONG, | | 20 | called as a witness by the Defendant, | | 21 | having been duly sworn, testified as follows: | | 22 | THE WITNESS:
Sasha Gong, Dr. Sasha Gong, last name | | 23 | G-o-n-g, first name S-a-s-h-a. | | 24 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim, you may inquire. | | 25 | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | DIRECT EXAMINATION | | 2 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 3 | Q.
Ms. Gong, what is your profession? | | 4 | I'm a journalist, a scholar, and a writer, now a filmmaker.
A. | | 5 | Q.
How long have you been a journalist? | | 6 | A.
Twenty-five years. | | 7 | Q.
And you said you were a scholar.
How long have you been a | | 8 | scholar? | | 9 | A.
For decades. | | 10 | Q.
Do you know Guo Wengui? | | 11 | A.
Yes. | | 12 | Q.
How do you know him? | | 13 | A.
I interviewed him on April 17 -- April 17, 2017. | | 14 | Q.
And you also conducted an interview of him before the | | 15 | formal interview, correct? | | 16 | A.
The 17th was the formal interview, it's about a day and a | | 17 | half, and I formally interviewed him on TV on April 19, 2017. | | 18 | Q.
We'll come to that in a moment.
We'll get into the details | | 19 | later. | | 20 | Have you also been an intermediary introducing Guo to | | 21 | other people? | | 22 | A.
Yes, to other journalists. | | 23 | Q.
And did you eventually join the board of an entity promoted | | 24 | by Guo? | | 25 | Yes, I did.
A. | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
What was that entity? | | 2 | A.
Rule of Law Society. | | 3 | Q.
Did you become an acquaintance of Guo's after your Voice of | | 4 | America interview in the spring of 2017? | | 5 | A.
Yes. | | 6 | Q.
Let's talk a little bit about your background, and we'll | | 7 | take just a few minutes here. | | 8 | Where were you born? | | 9 | A.
Beijing, China. | | 10 | Q.
When? | | 11 | A.
1956. | | 12 | Q.
Just as a youth growing up in China, what was your | | 13 | relationship with the government? | | 14 | A.
My family was persecuted.
In fact, I'm fourth generation | | 15 | of American.
I have two great grandfathers who came to this | | 16 | country as railway workers, and later they were sent back to | | 17 | the States.
And my grandfather also used to be American | | 18 | citizen and came back to China, stayed 20 years -- 20 years in | | 19 | jail as accused of being an American agent. | | 20 | Q.
Ms. Gong, were you yourself ever imprisoned? | | 21 | A.
Yes. | | 22 | Q.
When was that? | | 23 | A.
1977 to 1978. | | 24 | Q.
What for? | | 25 | For antigovernment speech.
A. | | | | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | of 168
L4MKEAS5
Gong - Direct | | 1 | Q.
Did you have any higher education in China? | | 2 | A.
In China, it's a little difficult to explain.
I have three | | 3 | years of education before -- from '62 to '65, my family got | | 4 | into political trouble.
We were sent to countryside.
I worked | | 5 | as a peasant, a farm laborer, and later I worked as a worker, a | | 6 | factory worker. | | 7 | Q.
Dr. Gong, I want to fast forward and focus.
Did you go to | | 8 | university in China? | | 9 | A.
Yes.
I went to -- I took an exam after I was released from | | 10 | jail.
The political situation change, and I took exam, and I | | 11 | got to picking university, the top university, in China.
I got | | 12 | two degrees there, a Master's and a B.A. | | 13 | Q.
Did you immigrate to the U.S. at some point? | | 14 | A.
Yes.
In 1987.
I came here first as a visiting scholar, | | 15 | and then I enter the Ph.D. program at Harvard University. | | 16 | Q.
Did you end up getting your Doctorate at Harvard? | | 17 | A.
Yes.
I got my Doctorate degree in 1995. | | 18 | In what?
Q. | | 19 | A.
Sociology. | | 20 | Q.
Did you ever become a U.S. citizen? | | 21 | A.
Yes.
2001, March 29.
And that day, I was lucky.
I was in | | 22 | a big dinner with President Bush with TV journalists.
I got | | 23 | the personal congratulations from President Bush, which is on | | 24 | C-SPAN. | | 25 | Q.
Dr. Gong, after graduating from Harvard, just if you could | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | very briefly walk us through your career? | | 2 | A.
Yeah.
I taught a few years at UCLA, and after that, I took | | 3 | a job.
I entered journalism, I took a job at Radio Free Asia. | | 4 | And after that, I actually work as -- work for AFL-CIO as a | | 5 | China expert, and quickly after a few years at AFL-CIO, I took | | 6 | some time off and campaigned for Hillary Clinton for her | | 7 | presidential campaign.
And after that, I joined Voice of | | 8 | America as its China director. | | 9 | Q.
What is Voice of America's mission? | | 10 | A.
Voice of America is a federal agency established in 1942 to | | 11 | promote truth, news, freedom, and democracy around the world. | | 12 | Now, do you still work there?
Q. | | 13 | A.
No.
I was terminated. | | 14 | Q.
And why was that? | | 15 | A.
Because I conducted the Guo interview live, and the | | 16 | interview was interrupted by Voice of America.
They thought I | | 17 | should not have that interview, and so they thought that was | | 18 | insubordination.
Also, that interview was approved by my | | 19 | supervisors. | | 20 | Q.
Dr. Gong, are you still in litigation with Voice of | | 21 | America? | | 22 | A.
Yes. | | 23 | Q.
So, aside from your -- well, so you're no longer there. | | 24 | What are you doing professionally today? | | 25 | A.
I'm making films.
I'm making -- I'm finishing one film, | L4MKEAS5 Gong - Direct of 168 | 1 | which is five episodes, almost five hours' story, of dissident | |----|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 2 | movements around -- under communism.
So I interviewed people | | 3 | like Lech Walesa, Landsbergis was the first president of free | | 4 | Lithuania, and other founders of movements. | | 5 | Q.
Dr. Gong, are you involved in any policy organizations | | 6 | relating to China? | | 7 | A.
Yes.
I'm a founding member of the committee for present | | 8 | danger — China, which is a policy group in -- based mostly in | | 9 | Washington. | | 10 | Q.
I'm sorry, a partisan group? | | 11 | A.
No, a policy group. | | 12 | Q.
Oh, policy group? | | 13 | A.
Policy. | | 14 | Q.
What is the goal of that group? | | 15 | A.
To warn the United States of America the danger of China, | | 16 | of Communist China intervening with our -- well, economy, | | 17 | politics, and everywhere. | | 18 | Q.
Dr. Gong, have you stayed in contact with dissidents in the | | 19 | U.S. since immigrating and becoming a citizen? | | 20 | A.
Oh, yes, a lot.
And although I have to say I participate | | 21 | in fewer -- I rarely participate in dissident movement events | | 22 | because as a journalist, I kept a little distance, but I know | | 23 | most people.
They know me. | | 24 | Q.
Do you know Chen Guangcheng? | | 25 | A.
He's a very dear friend. | | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
Is he a dissident? | | 2 | A.
Yes.
And he was, what people called him, the blind lawyer. | | 3 | He spent years while helping people to fight the one-child | | 4 | policy and force abortion policy, and he was imprisoned more | | 5 | than once for a few years, and they tortured him.
And later, | | 6 | he escaped to the United States, and the Time Magazine put him | | 7 | on the cover page. | | 8 | Q.
How about Bob Fu, do you know him? | | 9 | A.
Bob Fu is also a good friend.
And Bob Fu escaped from | | 10 | China as a Christian, and he became a pastor in the United | | 11 | States, and he also got a Doctorate degree, and he started an | | 12 | organization called China Aid, which helps Christians to escape | | 13 | dictatorship. | | 14 | Q.
Dr. Gong, have you done anything to help dissidents when | | 15 | they first come to the U.S.? | | 16 | A.
Oh, a lot. | | 17 | Q.
What do you do? | | 18 | A.
Well, besides helping them to tell their stories in the | | 19 | press and help to -- well, driving, translating, helping them | | 20 | to get college application or whatever, all sort of things. | | 21 | Q.
Have you observed that many dissidents, once they get here, | | 22 | stay in contact with each other? | | 23 | A.
Yes. | | 24 | Q.
Over the decades, have you observed that there is any such | | 25 | thing as a dissident -- Chinese dissident community in the | | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | United States? | | 2 | A.
Yes. | | 3 | Q.
In your line of work, do you continue to closely follow | | 4 | events in China? | | 5 | A.
Yes, very much. | | 6 | Q.
And let me ask you about communication with China for a | | 7 | moment. | | 8 | Do you still have communication electronic | | 9 | communications over email or phone with anyone on Mainland | | 10 | China? | | 11 | A.
I'm trying to do as little as possible because -- as little | | 12 | as possible. | | 13 | Q.
Why is that? | | 14 | A.
Because the Chinese government monitor everything.
This is | | 15 | what happened:
When the -- | | 16 | Q.
Dr. Gong, I just want to -- we'll try to do more of a | | 17 | Q&A -- | | 18 | A.
Sure. | | 19 | -- as we move into some more details, okay?
Q. | | 20 | A.
Sure. | | 21 | Q.
By the way, what's the country code for China? | | 22 | A.
86. | | 23 | Q.
And let me ask you about the email address with qq.com. | | 24 | Are you familiar with that? | | 25 | Very much.
A. | | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
Is that a particular email provider? | | 2 | QQ is owned by Tencent the biggest telecommunication
A. | | 3 | company in China, which have already reach the monopoly status. | | 4 | And Tencent is the company, you know, totally controlled by the | | 5 | Chinese government, with a lot of Chinese internet police stage | | 6 | on there.
This is not my imagination, this is the press China | | 7 | proudly announce they have ordered internet police stage there. | | 8 | Q.
Dr. Gong, do you know anyone in China who would dare to use | | 9 | open phone lines and QQ email addresses to administrate web | | 10 | pages for true dissidents? | | 11 | A.
No, unless they want to commit suicide. | | 12 | Q.
Okay.
Let's just move on. | | 13 | Dr. Gong, in your line of work, do you have to make | | 14 | your own personal judgments about which Chinese living in the | | 15 | U.S. are reliable dissidents and which have some degree of | | 16 | loyalty to Beijing? | | 17 | Yes.
A. | | 18 | Q.
Okay.
Why? | | 19 | A.
Dissidents usually -- all the dissidents have a track | | 20 | record.
The track record's that what you have done in China, | | 21 | what make you a dissident in China.
You can't suddenly become | | 22 | a dissident without any track record, without incidents, stuff | | 23 | like that.
I can quickly make, you know, China -- I always | | 24 | joke, China is like a small country, everybody knows everybody | | 25 | else; if you graduate from certain school, like which school, | L4MKEAS5 Gong - Direct and you have schoolmates, and people can vouch for you, and you have done something. Mostly, dissidents are helped in the States; they have done a lot within China. So I say, which county, which city, what you have done? We have a record, the press report, people report, court cases. It's not that difficult to trace. 2 3 4 5 6 Q. Dr. Gong -- 1 7 8 9 10 11 12 17 18 19 20 THE COURT: Ms. Cline? MS. CLINE: Your Honor, objection. To the extent I think part of the answer was based on personal knowledge and part sounded like expert testimony on what a dissident is, we just object; Ms. Gong was not offered as an expert witness. THE COURT: Yes, I will receive that subject to a motion to strike. 13 14 I don't know how much more you have on the line that trenches into expert testimony. 15 16 MR. GREIM: No, we're not offering her as an expert. We don't offer any expert. We're offering -- to the extent she has a lay opinion, it is intended to be based on her personal experience and not on any special method or expertise. THE COURT: That, I think, will be the question if there's a motion to strike. 21 22 BY MR. GREIM: 23 Q. Dr. Gong, when did you first become aware of Guo Wengui? A. February 2017. 24 25 |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
There were a series of interactions.
Did he come to | | 2 | request an interview with VOA? | | 3 | A.
Yes.
My senior correspondent came to me asking me for | | 4 | approval to interview Guo. | | 5 | Q.
And, ultimately, did you grant approval? | | 6 | A.
I told him I need to do some study, and it took me a couple | | 7 | of weeks to study and gave him my approval. | | 8 | Q.
And so did Mr. Guo have any requests for the interview? | | 9 | A.
Yes.
Mr. Guo came back and told the senior correspondent | | 10 | that he wanted me to interview him in person. | | 11 | Q.
And so what did you do to prepare for that interview? | | 12 | A.
I spent days to read the news reports and the various | | 13 | reports, and to listen to his previous interviews, and to ask | | 14 | around of that.
So I thought I understood the situation before | | 15 | I went to interview him. | | 16 | Q.
Did you then first interview Mr. Guo off the record? | | 17 | A.
Yes.
I gave him the precondition if he wants to be on my | | 18 | live interview, I have to preinterview him for a lengthy time. | | 19 | How long did that go?
Q. | | 20 | A.
Altogether, it's between 16 to 18 hours, I believe. | | 21 | Q.
Where did you do that? | | 22 | A.
In Guo's apartment. | | 23 | Q.
And where is that? | | 24 | A.
Sherry-Netherland Hotel. | | 25 | Did you meet Yvette Wang there?
Q. | | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | A.
Yes. | | 2 | Q.
How did Guo -- or did Guo introduce her? | | 3 | A.
Guo introduce her as his assistant. | | 4 | Did you meet Chunguang Han there?
Q. | | 5 | A.
Yes. | | 6 | Q.
How did Guo introduce him? | | 7 | A.
He introduce me as his cook. | | 8 | Q.
Did you see him cooking? | | 9 | A.
He cook us some noodles, yes. | | 10 | Q.
Did Guo use any nickname to refer to Chunguang Han? | | 11 | A.
Not a nickname; that's a Chinese way to addresses to young | | 12 | person, is that Little Han. | | 13 | Q.
Did the interview -- did the live interview ultimately | | 14 | occur? | | 15 | A.
Yes. | | 16 | Q.
And did the Chinese government do anything that was | | 17 | significant to you leading into that interview? | | 18 | A.
Yes, several.
First, on April 17, two days before the | | 19 | interview, the Chinese Foreign Ministry summoned VOA Beijing | | 20 | correspondent and talk them blanket, if you do the interview -- | | 21 | we have two people there, and some of them, he said, you | | 22 | should -- you cannot do the interview, if you do this, it will | | 23 | severely harm the relationship between VOA and the Chinese | | 24 | government. | | 25 | THE COURT:
I'm sorry, they summoned you and somebody | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | else? | | 2 | THE WITNESS:
Not me.
Actually, my Beijing | | 3 | correspondent.
So that's the Chinese Foreign Ministry, two | | 4 | officials, came to our Beijing office. | | 5 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 6 | Q.
Dr. Gong, what impact did that have on you? | | 7 | A.
Oh, yeah, in that case, if a Communist government wants you | | 8 | not to do something, perhaps you should do it.
And the next | | 9 | day, on the 18th, April 18th, the Chinese embassy in Washington | | 10 | called my home office, VOA, for perhaps two or three dozens of | | 11 | times, every several minutes, demanding us to stop the | | 12 | interview.
And on that evening, April 18th, on the evening -- | | 13 | the Interpol Beijing office issued a red notice against | | 14 | Mr. Guo. | | 15 | Q.
And this certainly made it appear to you -- well, let me | | 16 | strike that. | | 17 | So, Dr. Gong, the interview happened.
Did it go to | | 18 | its full completion? | | 19 | No.
A.
It was supposed to be one hour formal interview and | | 20 | two hours of internet chat, which is very popular format, | | 21 | internet chat.
So it was supposed to have a chat happen in two | | 22 | hours.
But when the interview entered its second hour, on | | 23 | minute 15, and I got a call from Washington, I got a text | | 24 | message from Washington, ordering me to immediately stop it. | | 25 | Meanwhile, my producer in Washington, the remote producer in | | | | |---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Washington, was ordered to pull the plug so we could not | | broadcast. | | Q.
Dr. Gong -- | | THE COURT:
Hold on for a second. | | Ms. Gong, when you're answering questions, please try | | to slow down a little bit just so the court reporter can get | | your words down.
It's very important for us. | | THE WITNESS:
No problem.
I apologize.
And I -- | | also, English is my third language, so I will try to be more -- | | THE COURT:
No need to apologize.
Just take your | | time. | | THE WITNESS:
Sure. | | MR. GREIM:
I'll try to be fast; you take your time. | | I'm afraid my own hurriedness is bleeding over a little bit. | | BY MR. GREIM: | | Q.
Dr. Gong, what did Guo do immediately after the interview | | was cut short? | | A.
Immediately when it's cut, Guo clapped his hands like this, | | great, great, great.
And he said, well, the interview may not | | be the news but the shortcut of the interview is the great | | news.
He was very happy with it. | | Q.
What did you see him do next? | | A.
And then he took off his phone and made a long phone call. | | Q.
Did he come back to you after the phone call? | | About an hour later, yes.
A. | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
What did he say? | | 2 | A.
He said someone -- someone inside the intelligence service | | 3 | in Beijing, his friend, told him the shortcut was caused by an | | 4 | agent in -- within the Voice of America who has a name and -- | | 5 | should I disclose that name? | | 6 | Q.
No, we're not asking for that Dr. Gong. | | 7 | A.
No.
So he came back to tell that's the name, that's the | | 8 | person.
I was sitting with my -- five of my reporters; we have | | 9 | six people there together.
Immediately, I did this:
I said, | | 10 | no, let's not talk about it because I know my duty; my duty was | | 11 | to report back to the federal government. | | 12 | Q.
Dr. Gong, remember, my question is just simply what Guo | | 13 | did.
So, I understand you have a lot, but just to move through | | 14 | quickly, though, try to just answer my question, if you could. | | 15 | A.
Yes. | | 16 | Q.
Did Guo, when he came back from the long phone call, did he | | 17 | appear happy, distraught?
What was his appearance? | | 18 | A.
He appeared quite happy. | | 19 | Did he indicate to you he had just spoken to his parents at
Q. | | 20 | all? | | 21 | A.
No, he said he spoke to someone who's high-ranking official | | 22 | in the intelligence -- in the Chinese intelligence. | | 23 | Q.
Did he say that he had just heard from his parents while | | 24 | someone was holding a gun to their heads? | | 25 | No, not at all.
A.
I had five other reporters with me. | |----|-------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q. | Did he appear shaken? | | 2 | A. | No. | | 3 | Q. | Let's talk about your interactions with Guo after the | | 4 | | interview. | | 5 | | Did you introduce him to anyone else? | | 6 | A. | Yes.
A bunch of reporters from time to time. | | 7 | Q. | Did you introduce him to Bill Gertz? | | 8 | A. | Yes, I did. | | 9 | Q. | How many times after the interview have you spoken with him | | 10 | | in person? | | 11 | A. | You mean face to face? | | 12 | Q. | Yes. | | 13 | A. | Well, more than ten, less than twenty. | | 14 | Q. | How often did you speak with him just either way, in person | | 15 | | or over the phone? | | 16 | A. | Well, I would say a few times a month. | | 17 | Q. | Do you feel you developed a friendship with him? | | 18 | A. | Yes, I did. | | 19 | Q. | In fact, did he give you anything, any materials from this | | 20 | case? | | | 21 | A. | Yes. | | 22 | Q. | What did he give you? | | 23 | A. | He gave me a very thick folder.
It's like -- like four | | 24 | | inches thick, materials, and give me several copies and asking | | 25 | | me to pass that to General Spalding and to Michael Pillsbury in | | | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | Hudson. | | 2 | Q.
Did he explain what it was he was giving you? | | 3 | A.
He said some case.
I had no idea at that time.
At the | | 4 | time, it's about somewhere in early or mid-2019. | | 5 | Q.
Dr. Gong, has Mr. Guo ever paid you for any of your work? | | 6 | A.
No. | | 7 | Q.
Have you asked him to pay you money for any of your work? | | 8 | A.
No. | | 9 | Q.
Do you have any running dispute with Mr. Guo about whether | | 10 | he would pay you for something? | | 11 | A.
No. | | 12 | Q.
Do you have any running dispute with Mr. Guo about whether | | 13 | he would help finance any of your projects? | | 14 | A.
No. | | 15 | (Continued on next page) | | 16 | | | 17 | | | 18 | | | 19 | | | 20 | | | 21 | | | 22 | | | 23 | | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | | | Q.
Did Mr. Guo ever introduce you to a man named William Je? | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | A.
Yes. | | Q.
When was that? | | November 20, 2018.
A. | | Q.
What was the occasion? | | A.
In that morning, Mr. Guo and Mr. Bannon have the joint | | press conference.
In that press conference, they announced | | that they were up a Rule of Law Foundation.
So they announce | | that at lunchtime.
I got a phone call from that one.
He said | | Mr. Guo invite you and Lianchao Han and Bill Gertz, the three | | of us, to go to his apartment for lunch. | | Q.
Okay.
And so did you -- | | THE COURT:
Again, let me caution you.
Please slow | | down because we've got to make sure the court reporters get it | | down, and I understand that English is not your first language; | | so just take it slowly. | | THE WITNESS:
Okay.
In case they have problem, just | | interrupt me.
I'm fine.
My student does that all the time. | | Okay.
Q.
So who else -- I take it you then attended the lunch | | at Mr. Guo's apartment? | | A.
Yes. | | Q.
Who else was there? | | A.
Mr. Bannon and Mr. William Je. | | Q.
Was he formally introduced to you? | | | | | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | "He's my money man.
Anything ask him about money." | | 2 | Q.
So did Mr. Je have any reaction to this? | | 3 | A.
He smiled. | | 4 | Did you then speak to Mr. Je?
Q. | | 5 | A.
Yes.
I spoke with Mr. Je.
Because I listened to him, in | | 6 | one sentence I recognized his Cantonese accent.
So I spoke to | | 7 | him in Cantonese.
I am Cantonese and that's my first language, | | 8 | my mother tongue.
So, you know, when you speak your mother | | 9 | tongue to someone, you disclose information usually.
That | | 10 | happens. | | 11 | Q.
What did Mr. Je tell you about himself? | | 12 | A.
Mr. Je told me that he been in the investment banking | | 13 | industry, and he also he works with a lot of Chinese government | | 14 | at provincial level. | | 15 | MS. CLINE:
Objection, move to strike as hearsay. | | 16 | THE COURT:
Let me ask the question.
Actually, is | | 17 | there any further testimony to support the admissibility of | | 18 | this testimony? | | 19 | MR. GREIM:
I would ask for how it affected a decision | | 20 | that she made later, but that will happen a little bit later. | | 21 | THE COURT:
I'm going to strike the testimony. | | 22 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 23 | Q.
Dr. Gong, did you ever speak with Mr. Guo -- and I'm not | | 24 | asking for any research or reporting that you did, writing, but | | 25 | did you ever speak to him about his work for the MSS? | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
Yes. | | 2 | Q.
And what did he tell you about that? | | 3 | A.
He told me when he was in China, he worked closely and for | | 4 | the MSS, which is the Chinese version of KGB.
And he said he | | 5 | paid up -- he's a rich man.
He paid their personnel.
He let | | 6 | them use their office space and that he paid for vehicles, the | | 7 | cars that they use, and also in his most prestigious hotel, The | | 8 | Beijing Tongzhou.
That's the name of the hotel. | | 9 | Q.
Did he say why he did that? | | 10 | A.
I haven't finished the other part. | | 11 | Q.
I see. | | 12 | A.
He said the space he gave them, the MSS, occupied a whole | | 13 | floor in his hotel, work with him all the time. | | 14 | Q.
Did he say why he did that? | | 15 | A.
Why? | | 16 | Q.
Yes.
Why would he make those resources available to the | | 17 | MSS? | | 18 | A.
Oh, yes.
He said the MSS, in turn, helping him to fight | | 19 | his -- help him to fight his business rivalry, and to the | | 20 | extent that they would write letters for him.
They would help | | 21 | him to, you know, fight back and to gain business.
So he work | | 22 | with him -- he work with MSS for business reasons.
He had a | | 23 | specific agency who he worked, which he worked with, which is | | 24 | No. 17 Bureau -- oh, no.
No. 17 Bureau of the MSS. | | 25 | What does that bureau do?
Q. | | | | 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 L4MPEAS6 Gong - Direct of 168 A. The bureau specifically, my understanding is that the bureau specifically works with large businesses. 1 2 Q. Was there any particular person at the MSS that Guo said he was close to? 3 4 A. Several, yes. Three names come to my mind specifically. First is last name Ma, M-a, first name, J-i-a-n. The last name M-a. And Mr. Ma was the executive minister of -- the secretary minister of the MSS, minister of public security. And Mr. Ma, from my understanding from Mr. Guo, was in charge of international espionage and investing -- no, investigating corruption. That's the first one. And second one Mr. Guo told me is person named, first name, Y-u-e, last name D-z-h-a-n-g. And he's a very high-ranking official in MSS. And he was Guo's business associate. What he did was he was in charge of hunting down the Chinese dissidents, and there are several people right here in New York City who were arrested or interrogated or tortured by Mr. Dzhang right here -- 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q. That's not -- before we go off on a new area, can you tell us the third person? 19 20 A. The third person's name is Hui Gao. Last name -- first name H-u-i, last name Gao, G-a-o. and that was a borough chief of the MSS investigative -- bureau of investigation, something like that. 21 22 23 24 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 25 |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
And Mr. Guo told me he was very close to Mr. Gao, and | | 2 | Mr. Gao follows Mr. Guo around like his little brother.
And | | 3 | Mr. Gao was later -- | | 4 | THE COURT:
No, no.
You're just being asked about the | | 5 | conversation with Mr. Guo.
If you just try to limit your | | 6 | answers to exactly what is asked. | | 7 | THE WITNESS:
That was my conversation with -- | | 8 | THE COURT:
And try to keep your answers short and let | | 9 | counsel ask follow-up questions. | | 10 | THE WITNESS:
Okay.
Thank you. | | 11 | BY MR. GREIM: | | 12 | Q.
Dr. Gong, I know there's probably much more you could say, | | 13 | but I want to move on to another topic.
Okay? | | 14 | A.
Yes. | | 15 | Q.
Did Mr. Guo tell you whether he kept ties with anyone in | | 16 | MSS after he came to the U.S.? | | 17 | A.
Yes, he did. | | 18 | Q.
And who did he keep ties with? | | 19 | He said lots of high-ranking officials, but he did not give
A. | | 20 | me names. | | 21 | Q.
And did he tell you whether those high-ranking officials | | 22 | were giving him information so that he could whistle blow with | | 23 | it? | | 24 | A.
Yes, he did. | | 25 | Did you observe him actually whistle blow with any of the
Q. | | | | |----|---------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | | information he received from those officials? | | 2 | A. | I observed him whistleblowing, but whether or not from | | 3 | | those officials, I cannot testify. | | 4 | Q. | Did Guo ever criticize dissidents when he was speaking with | | 5 | you? | | | 6 | A. | At that time, not much.
Some, but not a lot.
Not like | | 7 | | today. | | 8 | Q. | Okay.
And you say "at that time."
Is this, when, in 2017? | | 9 | A. | 2017. | | 10 | Q. | And so did his criticism of dissidents increase over time? | | 11 | A. | Yes. | | 12 | Q. | What did he typically claim about these dissidents when he | | 13 | | would criticize them to you? | | 14 | A. | They work for the Chinese Communist Party, CCP. | | 15 | Q. | Now, did you, yourself, believe that he could be correct? | | 16 | A. | I doubt it. | | 17 | Q. | Dr. Gong, did Mr. Guo eventually begin to criticize you? | | 18 | A. | Yes. | | 19 | Q. | When was that? | | 20 | A. | After I resigned from the board of the Rule of Law Society, | | 21 | | which is on August or September 2019. | | 22 | Q. | Now, you had just joined the Rule of Law Society a few | | 23 | | months before you resigned; is that right? | | 24 | A. | Yes, I did. | | 25 | Q. | And when you resigned, what did Mr. Guo begin to do? | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
He began to attack me on the Rule of Law Foundation and | | 2 | Rule of Law Society YouTube channels. | | 3 | Q.
What did he say about you? | | 4 | A.
He did not attack me as CCP in the beginning.
He attacked | | 5 | me that I slept with a lot of men, and he attacked me by | | 6 | calling me all sort of names, and later he attacked me for | | 7 | saying I took lots of money from the Chinese intelligence to | | 8 | separate him from Mr. Bannon.
Specific amount is \$10 million. | | 9 | Q.
Did you, in fact, take \$10 million from the Chinese to | | 10 | separate Mr. Guo from Mr. Bannon? | | 11 | A.
No. | | 12 | Q.
Dr. Gong, have you ever received physical threats from | | 13 | Mr. Guo? | | 14 | A.
Yes. | | 15 | Q.
What did he say? | | 16 | He publicized lists in his social media, in his
A. | | 17 | broadcasting, on his own social media platform.
He | | 18 | specifically list names, dozens of names.
I thought, I | | 19 | believe, I was No. 8.
He asked people to attack -- to wipe us | | 20 | out from the face of earth. | | 21 | Q.
Now, did you take him as just joking?
Is this just a slang | | 22 | term for a joke? | | 23 | A.
No.
I took it seriously. | | 24 | Q.
And are you aware of anyone on the list actually receiving | | 25 | harassment from other individuals? | |----|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
Did he do the same thing with Bob Fu? | | 2 | A lot.
A.
He said Bob Fu was CCP spy and work for the Chinese | | 3 | government a lot, and he deserve to be wiped out.
So | | 4 | consequently, dozens of Guo's followers, who are paid, | | 5 | according to themself, to demonstrate for like six weeks in | | 6 | front of Bob Fu's house.
So Bob Fu has to move out of -- move | | 7 | out of the house. | | 8 | Dr. Gong, let's move along.
Q.
One final question.
Has he | | 9 | made any threats against you regarding your testimony this | | 10 | week? | A. Yes. On Monday, when the court case start, he broadcast for a whole hour, and on his on GGB platform. He personally made me -- not only call me names and call me CCP spy and all sorts of very, you know, dirty words, and said I was uneducated, I was low-life and something, something like that, and also basically nick-named me like a whore, something like that. And so on Monday, one of Guo's followers, who -- 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 THE COURT: I mean, how do you know that the person was a Guo follower? I'm going to let you testify to what you observed Mr. Guo do over social media, if you actually saw him, but not beyond that. 18 19 20 21 THE WITNESS: The follower is because Guo took a picture with him yesterday that you are doing great, and that he's perhaps now right in front of the courthouse. BY MR. GREIM: 22 23 24 25 |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | Q.
Dr. Gong, if Mr. Guo did not himself make the threat to | | 2 | you -- | | 3 | A.
Yes, he did. | | 4 | Then I only want -- then, please, only testify as to the
Q. | | 5 | threat Mr. Guo made and not this other person. | | 6 | A.
Okay.
Mr. Guo spent a whole hour on his social media | | 7 | platform attacking me Monday, on Monday, the day the court case | | 8 | began.
And since I've become a witness of this case, I have | | 9 | received so much harassment. | | 10 | Q.
Dr. Gong, have Mr. Guo's threats made you more or less | | 11 | likely to speak out about him? | | 12 | A.
A lot less. | | 13 | Q.
Why? | | 14 | A.
Any normal person would not want that much trouble. | | 15 | Q.
What effect have his threats had on the Chinese -- have had | | 16 | on the Chinese dissident community? | | 17 | MS. CLINE:
Objection. | | 18 | THE COURT:
Sustained. | | 19 | MR. GREIM:
No further questions. | | 20 | THE COURT:
Any cross? | | 21 | MS. CLINE:
Yes, your Honor. | | 22 | CROSS-EXAMINATION | | 23 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 24 | Q.
Dr. Gong, you understand that this trial relates to a | | 25 | dispute between two companies, Eastern Profit and Strategic | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--| | | | | | 1 | Vision, right? | | | 2 | A.
Yes. | | | 3 | Q.
You don't know anything about Eastern Profit, do you? | | | 4 | No, nothing.
A. | | | 5 | Q.
You don't know a thing about Strategic Vision, do you? | | | 6 | A.
I know the owner. | | | 7 | Q.
Do you know anything about the contract between Eastern | | | 8 | Profit and Strategic Vision? | | | 9 | A.
No.
I have nothing to do with it. | | | 10 | Q.
You would agree that Chinese politics are complicated, | | | 11 | right? | | | 12 | A.
Yes, all politics are complicated. | | | 13 | Q.
And I think you said if the communist government wants you | | | 14 | to do something, you should do it, right? | | | 15 | A.
When did I say? | | | 16 | Q.
I thought you said it earlier this afternoon. | | | 17 | A.
I said the Chinese government want me to do something, I do | | | 18 | it?
No, I did not do it.
Please refer to the record.
That's | | | 19 | not what I said. | | | 20 | Q.
You did say you still have some communications with | | | 21 | mainland China, right? | | | 22 | A.
Yes.
My mom is 91 years old.
I have to call her from time | | | 23 | to time. | | | 24 | Q.
Does that mean you're a communist? | | | 25 | What do you mean?
A.
I call my mom from time to time.
That's | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | all.
I never said whoever call their mom and father and the | | 2 | relatives is a communist. | | 3 | Q.
You first met Mr. Guo in April of 2017, right? | | 4 | Yes.
A. | | 5 | Q.
And from that point until sometime in 2019, you were on | | 6 | good terms with him, right? | | 7 | A.
Yes. | | 8 | Q.
In fact, you considered him your friend? | | 9 | A.
It's a yes or no question.
Yes, before November 18th -- | | 10 | November 20, 2018.
After November 20, 2018, I developed my | | 11 | doubts. | | 12 | Q.
And did there come a time, and I think it was 2019, the | | 13 | fall of 2019, that Mr. Guo made some statements about you in | | 14 | the media that you felt were untrue? | | 15 | A.
He made a lot of statements that were untrue. | | 16 | Q.
And he discredited a movie you were trying to make, right? | | 17 | A.
He did not.
He did not even know what movie I was making. | | 18 | Q.
As to the Voice of America interview you describe in your | | 19 | testimony, you wrote some articles on that subject, right? | | 20 | A.
Yes, I did. | | 21 | Q.
All right.
Let's bring up PX44, please. | | 22 | THE COURT:
Ms. Cline, what binder is this in? | | 23 | MS. CLINE:
You should have a separate bound binder, | | 24 | your Honor. | | 25 | THE COURT:
Okay. | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 2 | Q.
Can you scroll to the top, please.
Sorry.
We have to | | 3 | scroll for you but, Dr. Gong, you can see an exhibit we've | | 4 | marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 44.
Is this a copy of an article | | 5 | or an opinion piece that you wrote for the Wall Street Journal? | | 6 | A.
Yes. | | 7 | Q.
And the date of this is May 23rd, 2017, right? | | 8 | A.
Yes. | | 9 | Q.
Can you turn the page, please.
I direct your attention to | | 10 | the first full paragraph, I guess, the first sentence -- the | | 11 | second sentence.
There's a name there, Mr. Chen.
Is that the | | 12 | lawyer you referred to earlier in your testimony? | | 13 | A.
Yes. | | 14 | Q.
Okay.
And what you've written here says -- you refer to | | 15 | Mr. Chen, and you say:
"The blind lawyer and human rights | | 16 | activist who escaped to the U.S. a few years ago estimates that | | 17 | the Chinese government spent 10.5 million spying on Mr. Guo | | 18 | alone."
Do you see that? | | 19 | Not Mr. Guo.
A.
On Mr. Chen alone.
On him, that's Mr. Chen. | | 20 | Q.
Okay.
Got it.
Next paragraph down it says -- the | | 21 | paragraph that starts: "In the preinterview"? | | 22 | A.
Yes. | | 23 | Q.
And the sentence says:
"Mr. Guo explained that he paid for | | 24 | office rentals, private jets, surveillance systems, personnel, | | 25 | and many other expenses."
Did I read that correctly? | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | A.
Yes. | | 2 | Q.
And that was paying for expenses for whom? | | 3 | A.
For the MSS. | | 4 | Okay.
Q.
And you reported this in May of 2017, right? | | 5 | A.
Yes. | | 6 | Q.
Can you turn to PX46, please.
And PX46 is another article | | 7 | that you've written, correct? | | 8 | A.
Yes. | | 9 | Q.
And this one was published in the Washington Times in April | | 10 | of 2018? | | 11 | A.
Yes. | | 12 | Q.
And let's turn to PX47, please.
And this is another | | 13 | article that you wrote, and this one was published, I believe, | | 14 | in something called the Daily Caller, and this was in May of | | 15 | 2018; is that right? | | 16 | A.
Yes. | | 17 | Q.
And can we turn to the third page of this article, please. | | 18 | I direct your attention to the paragraph that starts with | | 19 | "Meanwhile;" do you see that? | | 20 | A.
Mmm, hmm. | | 21 | Q.
You have to answer orally.
Do you see it? | | 22 | A.
Yes, I do. | | 23 | Q.
The second sentence says:
"Ma Jian, the former Deputy of | | 24 | Minister of China's State Security, who was arrested for | | 25 | corruption, admitted that he took millions from Guo."
Do you | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | see that? | | 2 | A.
Yes. | | 3 | Q.
At the time of the Voice of America interview, you mention | | 4 | that Guo had already made a name for himself exposing massive | | 5 | corruption among top Chinese communist leaders, right? | | 6 | A.
Yes. | | 7 | Q.
You can take that down.
In late 2018, you became aware of | | 8 | the fact that Elliott Broidy was working with the Chinese | | 9 | government to extradite Mr. Guo from the United States, | | 10 | correct? | | 11 | A.
I was told by Guo, yes. | | 12 | Q.
Let's pull up Exhibit PX50, please. | | 13 | Exhibit PX50 is an article you wrote in December of | | 14 | 2018, or an opinion piece? | | 15 | A.
Yes. | | 16 | Q.
Is that right? | | 17 | A.
Yes. | | 18 | Q.
And in it you describe e-mails written by Elliott Broidy | | 19 | that you reviewed yourself, correct? | | 20 | A.
Yes. | | 21 | Q.
And you personally reviewed these e-mails, and then you | | 22 | reported a description of the fact that with the elections | | 23 | coming up, the Chinese government wanted to silence Mr. Guo's | | 24 | criticisms of Xi Jinping, correct? | | 25 | MR. GREIM:
Objection to the foundation, unless she's | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | just asking whether she said those words. | | 2 | THE COURT:
Overruled. | | 3 | A.
Please refer the paragraph to me. | | 4 | I'd be happy to.
Q.
Let's go to the second page. | | 5 | So at the bottom of page 2 of PX50, you're quoting an | | 6 | e-mail that you read that Mr. Broidy wrote, correct? | | 7 | A.
Yes. | | 8 | MR. GREIM:
Objection, foundation. | | 9 | THE COURT:
Overruled. | | 10 | Q.
And I'll just read it, and then I'll ask you if I've read | | 11 | it correctly.
So there's an italicized, bolded quote that | | 12 | starts at the bottom of page 2:
"The country involved has good | | 13 | relations with China and the United States and offered a | | 14 | lucrative opportunity.
China wants to extradite from the | | 15 | United States Guo Wengui, who is very critical of President Xi | | 16 | Jinping and now living as a fugitive in New York City.
Guo | | 17 | defrauded many investors, including Abu Dhabi for \$3 billion. | | 18 | We elections coming up in China this fall, the Chinese want him | | 19 | to be kept quiet.
I believe a negotiation can take place, | | 20 | which includes Abu Dhabi receiving its \$3 billion back and Abu | | 21 | Dhabi extraditing Guo from the United States to Abu Dhabi. | | 22 | Later, Abu Dhabi would allow extradition to China.
I was told | | 23 | that China would pay us, and if the facts are indeed correct, I | | 24 | assume Abu Dhabi would feel obligated to pay a fee as well." | | 25 | Did I read that correctly? | |----|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | of 168
L4MPEAS6
Gong - Cross | | 1 | A.
You read that correctly, but those are not my words. | | 2 | THE COURT:
With respect to the prior objection, I'm | | 3 | not receiving the statement about what Broidy wrote for the | | 4 | truth, it's just to impeach the witness. | | 5 | Q.
That's a quote from you that you reported in December of | | 6 | 2018, based on your review of Mr. Broidy's e-mails, correct? | | 7 | A.
Yes.
That's a quote from me, but I did not wrote that | | 8 | sentence, as you said before. | | 9 | Q.
If you can turn the page to page 5 of PX50.
Keep scrolling | | 10 | down to the bottom, please.
And on page 5 you report the | | 11 | following:
"In the following month, the Chinese government | | 12 | made some crucial moves to extradite Guo, who applied for | | 13 | political asylum as a resident of Hong Kong."
That's a | | 14 | sentence you wrote, correct? | | 15 | A.
That's a sentence I wrote. | | 16 | Q.
And your article also talks about officials from the | | 17 | Chinese government who came to visit Mr. Guo in the United | | 18 | States, right? | | 19 | A.
Yes, that's the minister level, the head, one of the top | | 20 | officials in MSS.
It's like No. 2 in KGB, something like that. | | 21 | Q.
And you're aware that Mr. Broidy was later indicted in | Q. And you're aware that Mr. Broidy was later indicted in connection with a scheme to extradite Mr. Guo, right? A. Yes. MR. GREIM: Objection, foundation. THE COURT: Sustained. 22 23 24 25 |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | L4MPEAS6
Gong - Cross | | 1 | THE WITNESS:
Okay.
So should I -- I'm sorry.
I | | 2 | missed that. | | 3 | THE COURT:
So when I sustain as to an objection, that | | 4 | means that you don't have to answer the question. | | 5 | THE WITNESS:
Yes. | | 6 | THE COURT:
When I say "overruled," it means you | | 7 | should go ahead and answer. | | 8 | THE WITNESS:
I understand.
I just did not -- you | | 9 | know, I was paying attention -- sorry about that, your Honor. | | 10 | THE COURT:
Oh, that's okay.
Go ahead. | | 11 | MS. CLINE:
Apologies if I misstated, your Honor.
I | | 12 | was trying to lay a foundation. | | 13 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 14 | Q.
So the question is:
Are you aware, in the course of your | | 15 | work as a journalist who is steeped in Chinese politics, that | | 16 | Mr. Broidy was essentially indicted for his role in a scheme to | | 17 | deport Mr. Guo? | | 18 | A.
That, I was not aware.
I thought he was indicted for not | | 19 | register as a foreign agent. | | 20 | Q.
Did you ever read his indictment? | | 21 | A.
I don't remember.
I don't recall I did. | | 22 | Q.
Did you ever read his guilty plea? | | 23 | A.
For failing to register an agent, I read the news.
I did | | 24 | not read his plea. | | 25 | And so your testimony under oath is that you never read his
Q. | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | plea agreement? | | 2 | A.
No. | | 3 | Q.
Even though you're a reporter who's very interested in | | 4 | Chinese American politics? | | 5 | A.
That's Malaysian politics. | | 6 | Q.
In March of 2018, you wrote a letter in favor of -- let me | | 7 | interrupt myself. | | 8 | MS. CLINE:
Your Honor, before I forget, plaintiff | | 9 | offers Exhibit PX44, 46, 47 and 50. | | 10 | THE COURT:
Those are received subject to motions to | | 11 | strike.
I take it there's no objection as to the authenticity; | | 12 | is that right, counsel? | | 13 | MR. GREIM:
I'm sorry, your Honor.
I don't -- I don't | | 14 | have them in front of me. | | 15 | THE COURT:
They're all articles. | | 16 | MR. GREIM:
We have no objection on the authenticity | | 17 | of any of those, correct. | | 18 | THE COURT:
Those are received subject to a motion to | | 19 | strike. | | 20 | (Plaintiff's Exhibits PX44, 46, 47 and 50 received in | | 21 | evidence) | | 22 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 23 | Q.
Dr. Gong, when we were looking at the articles, the three | | 24 | articles that you'd written about the Voice of America | | 25 | interview, did you in any of those -- let me take a step back | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | for a minute. | | 2 | You testified, when Mr. Greim was asking you | | 3 | questions, that upon the interruption of the interview, Mr. Guo | | 4 | clapped his hands.
Did I understand you correctly? | | 5 | A.
Yes. | | 6 | Q.
And are you suggesting that you believe Mr. Guo was happy | | 7 | that the interview got cut short? | | 8 | A.
Yes. | | 9 | Q.
In any of the three articles that you wrote on the Voice of | | 10 | America interview and its interruption, did you report on the | | 11 | fact that Guo seemed happy that it had got cut short? | | 12 | A.
I was not supposed to because when, at the interview end | | 13 | and the conversation becomes off the record, what happens | | 14 | that -- I will take -- | | 15 | THE COURT:
Ma'am, you're just being asked a simple | | 16 | question.
The question pertains to the articles you wrote. | | 17 | THE WITNESS:
Yes. | | 18 | THE COURT:
Let me have the court reporter read back | | 19 | the question beginning with "In any of the three articles." | | 20 | (Record read) | | 21 | THE WITNESS:
No, I'm not supposed to. | | 22 | THE COURT:
I'm going to strike everything after "No." | | 23 | You can inquire on further examination. | | 24 | BY MS. CLINE: | | 25 | In March of 2018, you wrote a letter to the United States
Q. | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | government in support of Mr. Guo's asylum application, correct? | | 2 | A.
Yes. | | 3 | Q.
Let's pull up Exhibit DX123, please.
So, Dr. Gong, we're | | 4 | showing you an exhibit that's been marked as DX123.
The first | | 5 | couple of pages are an e-mail trail, and then if we can scroll | | 6 | to the -- I guess it's the third page.
There's a letter, and | | 7 | then just before I ask you to identify it, can you scroll all | | 8 | the way to the end and just can I verify that that's your | | 9 | signature there? | | 10 | A.
That is my signature. | | 11 | Q.
Okay.
And is this the letter that you wrote in support of | | 12 | Mr. Guo's asylum application? | | 13 | A.
Look like so. | | 14 | Q.
And were the statements that you wrote in this letter to | | 15 | the United States government true when you wrote them? | | 16 | A.
It is true.
It's still true. | | 17 | Q.
Let's turn back to the first page of the letter.
So I | | 18 | direct your attention to the second paragraph of the letter, | | 19 | the second sentence.
It says:
"Mr. Guo worked closely for | | 20 | years with Chinese intelligence services and claims he even | | 21 | financed their operations for investigating overseas corruption | | 22 | by Chinese government officials."
Do you see that? | | 23 | A.
Yes. | | 24 | Q.
And you supported his asylum application notwithstanding | | 25 | that fact, correct? | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | A.
That's correct. | | 2 | Q.
And in paragraph 2, you refer to Mr. Guo's social media | | 3 | campaign to expose corruption; do you see that? | | 4 | Yes.
A. | | 5 | Q.
And in it you describe that Mr. Guo's postings have | | 6 | hundreds of thousands of views; is that right? | | 7 | A.
Yes. | | 8 | Q.
And you say:
"As a veteran journalist, I believe that | | 9 | Mr. Guo has successfully created a 'we media' phenomenon, | | 10 | proliferating do-it-yourself investigative journalism | | 11 | particularly regarding the Chinese government"? | | 12 | A.
Yes. | | 13 | Q.
That was a true statement, right? | | 14 | A.
It's still true. | | 15 | Q.
Let me turn the page.
The third page here, in, I guess, | | 16 | the third sentence, you point out that as an experienced | | 17 | journalist, you personally verified some of his major stories | | 18 | with independent sources; is that accurate? | | 19 | Yes, very accurate.
A. | | 20 | Q.
And the next paragraph you say that Mr. Guo has challenged | | 21 | the legitimacy of the communist leaders in China with so much | | 22 | convincing evidence from inside the government itself; is that | | 23 | true? | | 24 | A.
Yes, at the time. | | 25 | And let's go to paragraph 5.
Q.
And in paragraph 5 you | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | describe an incident in which Mr. Guo was supposed to speak at | | 2 | the Hudson interview and the interview was cut off; is that | | 3 | correct? | | 4 | That's correct.
A. | | 5 | Q.
And your understanding was that the interview was cut off | | 6 | at the behest of the Chinese government, correct? | | 7 | A.
I learned from Mr. Lianchao Han, yes. | | 8 | Q.
And then let's go down to the next paragraph.
You make | | 9 | reference to the fact that Mr. Guo's social media accounts were | | 10 | suspended, right? | | 11 | A.
Yes. | | 12 | Q.
And then you also make reference to the fact that the | | 13 | PRC -- and that's People's Republic of China, right? | | 14 | A.
Right. | | 15 | Q.
And they had hired a bot army with fake accounts to make | | 16 | complaints about Guo on YouTube; is that right? | | 17 | A.
That's what I believed at the time. | | 18 | Q.
And did you ever come to know that, in fact, Twitter took | | 19 | down thousands of accounts attributed to the PRC that were | | 20 | targeting Mr. Guo? | | 21 | A.
Repeat your question again?
I don't understand. | | 22 | Q.
Yes.
Did you ever come to find out that Twitter, in fact, | | 23 | took down many, many accounts that were attributed to be owned | | 24 | by the PRC and were critical of Mr. Guo? | | 25 | That's not a simple yes-or-no answer because my account was
A. | | | | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | taken down overnight, for one night, and was resumed.
So I | | 2 | can't say about Twitter's motivation. | | 3 | Q.
Did you ever read any articles about the fact that Twitter | | 4 | had taken down a bunch of accounts belonging to the -- strike | | 5 | that. | | 6 | Did you ever read any articles regarding the fact that | | 7 | Twitter had taken down accounts set up by the Chinese | | 8 | government? | | 9 | A.
I read Twitter, not articles.
On Twitter social media, not | | 10 | from a credible newspaper or that. | | 11 | Q.
I'm sorry, I can't remember if I covered this or not.
Go | | 12 | back to the first page of the letter, please.
In the fourth | | 13 | paragraph down, when you're discussing the preinterview that | | 14 | you had with Mr. Guo, you talked about -- I think we looked at | | 15 | it the same context of another article. | | 16 | I just want to confirm in this letter that when you | | 17 | wrote a letter to the United States government supporting his | | 18 | asylum application, you were aware of the fact that he had paid | | 19 | for office rentals and other things for the Ministry of State | | 20 | Security in China, right? | | 21 | A.
Yes.
He paid for their operation.
He paid for the spy | | 22 | agency's operation. | | 23 | Q.
And even though you knew that, you supported his | | 24 | application for asylum, right? | | 25 | Yes, because like any KGB spies in the States and if they
A. | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | defect, we support their asylum. | | 2 | Q.
And you referred to the government that, in exchange for | | 3 | payments that Mr -- or purchases that Mr. Guo made for the MSS, | | 4 | the MSS protected him from political attacks by his business | | 5 | rivals, right? | | 6 | A.
Yes, that's what he told me. | | 7 | Q.
And that's what you reported to the United States | | 8 | government, correct? | | 9 | A.
Yes, I did. | | 10 | Q.
Can we turn to Exhibit PX59, please.
Sorry, it should be | | 11 | PX59.
So the first pages of this document are just a | | 12 | certification, but I'd like to turn to page 3 of the article. | | 13 | I'm sorry.
Let's just look at the cover page first. | | 14 | So this is a -- just scroll to the top, please. | | 15 | So this is an article put out by the Stanford Cyber | | 16 | Policy Center.
In your role as a journalist, have you ever | | 17 | come across the Stanford Internet Observatory Cyber Policy | | 18 | Center? | | 19 | No.
A. | | 20 | Q.
Skip two pages, please. | | 21 | And this is just the concept I was asking you about | | 22 | before.
I just want to put some context around it.
The first | | 23 | sentence of the article says:
"On June 11th, 2020, Twitter | | 24 | announced the takedown of a collection of 23,750 accounts | | 25 | attributed to the People's Republic of China, with technical | |----|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | indicators linking the operation to the same actor responsible | | 2 | for the network of 200,000 suspended in August of 2019."
Do | | | | | 3 | you see that? | | 4 | Yes, I do.
A. | | 5 | Q.
Before today, did you have any knowledge that that was the | | 6 | case? | | 7 | A.
No. | | 8 | Q.
And then just one more question on this.
Skip down to the | | 9 | second paragraph.
The first sentence, it says:
"This | | 10 | June 2020, PRC-attributed operation had considerable topical | | 11 | overlap with the August 2019 operation, particularly concerning | | 12 | the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong and attacks on Chinese | | 13 | billionaire Guo Wengui now in exile in the United States."
Do | | 14 | you see the sentence that I just read? | | 15 | A.
I did. | | 16 | Q.
In your role as a journalist steeped in Chinese American | | 17 | politics, did this fact relating to Twitter takedowns come to | | 18 | your attention? | | 19 | Came to my attention a few years ago when my account was
A. | | 20 | suspended, and I wrote to Senator Rubio and he -- well, he -- I | | 21 | know he called the White House, and my account was recovered in | | 22 | like ten hours or something like that.
And I paid some | | 23 | attention, but at the time, I did not pay that much attention | | 24 | because I was not working as a journalist but a filmmaker. | | 25 | But are you -- you were aware, though, that Twitter took
Q. | | | | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
And did you send an initial liter to Lianchao Han? | | 2 | A.
Yes, I did. | | 3 | Q.
It's not the same as the letter we just looked at, is it? | | 4 | He made changes.
A. | | 5 | Q.
The initial letter you sent is at Exhibit 124; is that | | 6 | correct? | | 7 | A.
I have to -- I haven't seen the letter. | | 8 | Q.
Scroll through. | | 9 | A.
The initial letter is much shorter.
Yes.
That's the | | 10 | initial.
That's the first letter. | | 11 | Q.
So did Lianchao Han add substantial information to the | | 12 | letter you finally submitted? | | 13 | A.
Yes. | | 14 | Q.
And you still did agree with the information in the final | | 15 | letter, correct? | | 16 | A.
Yes, I did. | | 17 | Q.
I think you testified that you supported Mr. Guo because he | | 18 | thought he was a defector? | | 19 | I thought he was a defector from Chinese spy agency.
A. | | 20 | Q.
Would you still write this letter today based on what you | | 21 | know today? | | 22 | A.
I will not. | | 23 | Q.
Why not? | | 24 | A.
I think his role changed after that, and since then, he | | 25 | became a dissident hunter. | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | Q.
Have you withdrawn this letter? | | 2 | A.
I reported to FBI, and I explained to FBI, and I explained | | 3 | to U.S. government, including members of the United States | | 4 | Senate, Foreign Relations Committee, Intelligence Committee and | | 5 | United States House Foreign Affairs Committee and Intelligence | | 6 | Committee and FBI officials and some others.
I wrote letters | | 7 | to explain to them.
I reported to them and had communications | | 8 | with them. | | 9 | MR. GREIM:
Move the admission of Exhibit 124. | | 10 | THE COURT:
Any objection to that? | | 11 | MS. CLINE:
No, other than to say I was remiss to | | 12 | offer 123 as well. | | 13 | THE COURT:
Any objection to 123? | | 14 | MR. GREIM:
No. | | 15 | THE COURT:
123 and 124 are received. | | 16 | (Defendant's Exhibits 123 and 124 received in | | 17 | evidence) | | 18 | MR. GREIM:
No further questions. | | 19 | THE COURT:
Are there any further exhibits -- | | 20 | directing myself to plaintiff, to Ms. Cline -- that you need to | | 21 | offer? | | 22 | MS. CLINE:
Sorry.
We'd like to offer as well PX59. | | 23 | THE COURT:
Any objection to PX59? | | 24 | MR. GREIM:
Yes, we do object to that. | | 25 | THE COURT:
Okay.
59 is -- | | | | of 168 L4MPEAS6 Gong - Redirect MR. GREIM: Oh, your Honor, we actually did object to that before, and I think we maybe did not get a ruling on that in that initial batch of exhibits. THE COURT: Okay. 59 is received subject to a motion to strike. (Plaintiff's Exhibit PX59 received in evidence) THE COURT: Ms. Gong, you're excused with the thanks of the Court. THE WITNESS: Thank you. (Witness excused) THE COURT: All right. Before we address Ms. Wang, is there anything else that the plaintiffs have to offer in their case? MS. CLINE: No, your Honor. THE COURT: Is there anything else the defendants have to offer in their case besides the issue with respect to Ms. Wang? MR. GREIM: No, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Let me direct the question to Mr. Greim with respect to Ms. Wang. Mr. Greim, there were two questions that were open with respect to Ms. Wang. My question to you is, given everything else that we've done in this case, do you really need to ask those two questions? MR. GREIM: Your Honor, I think I do. And I have to say, I'm not exactly sure I'd break it down exactly as I did 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 L4MPEAS6 Gong - Redirect of 168 but I just want to focus on the point that I want to make, which is, I would either like the witness to say that, yes, she agrees that Han Chunguang does not have information as to the million-dollar deposit, that that was really true, or I would like her to say that, you know, the reason that she didn't give it was for a reason that I think is not a valid one, but I think I want to get one or the other of those answers. THE COURT: Don't you already have it in the record that Han Chunguang — I mispronounced the name — that Mr. Han's name was mentioned elsewhere in the interrogatory responses and not in response to the question about who knew about the Strategic agreement? I mean, I really question at this point whether you need it. MR. GREIM: I suppose if we can, I mean if we can - because, frankly, I don't believe that the witnesses -- I don't believe that her testimony was true, that she thought he did have information and withheld it. The thing that would have gotten her in trouble, and the direction she was headed, I think was incorrect. And so that's why it's a little ironic in that I don't want to establish that she falsely swore to that; I want to rely on that. And I suppose we can let it stand because we have her sworn answer to those interrogatories that that does not name Han Chunguang, so I'm talking myself into it. I don't think we do need to pursue it, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. L4MPEAS6 Gong - Redirect of 168 | 1 | Is there anything plaintiffs have? | |----|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 2 | MS. CLINE:
Yes, if I may be heard, your Honor.
I | | 3 | just making sure we're all on the same page.
Is the | | 4 | interrogatory at issue No. 12, which is one that asks to | | 5 | identify each person with knowledge of Eastern's demand for the | | 6 | return of the \$1 million deposit? | | 7 | THE COURT:
No, I think it's -- | | 8 | MR. GREIM:
It's actually a few of them. | | 9 | THE COURT:
Yes, it's a number of interrogatory | | 10 | responses, and the interrogatories are in the record.
I left | | 11 | the testimony open because there was a question pending where I | | 12 | thought that the witness was at risk of incriminating herself | | 13 | in a crime and, for that reason, thought that before she had | | 14 | answered the question or answered the question further, that | | 15 | she should get the advice of counsel.
But the interrogatories | | 16 | themselves are in evidence.
Let me just look at my copy of the | | 17 | interrogatories. | | 18 | (Pause) | | 19 | THE COURT:
Is it also DX5, Mr. Greim? | | 20 | MR. GREIM:
It is, your Honor.
And -- | | 21 | THE COURT:
And I think the question went to the part | | 22 | of Interrogatory No. 5:
"Identify each person with knowledge | | 23 | of the agreement, including the negotiation of the same." | | 24 | MR. GREIM:
That's right.
I don't think I asked every | | 25 | one of these, once we hit our roadblock, but it would really be | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | No. 5.
Let me just start, I'll just start from the beginning. | | 2 | I can make a record now or we can just argue it later because | | 3 | we've got this in the record, but I mean it would be No. 4, No. | | 4 | 5, No. 10, No. 11, No. 12, No. 13, No. 14 and No. 16. | | 5 | THE COURT:
Yes, I think you're just convincing | | 6 | yourself you don't need to ask that question. | | 7 | MR. GREIM:
I'm even more convinced now. | | 8 | THE COURT:
All right. | | 9 | MR. GREIM:
And I would say No. 17. | | 10 | THE COURT:
All right.
It's all in evidence.
If it | | 11 | were not in evidence, I'd receive it.
In any event, it's the | | 12 | admission of a party opponent. | | 13 | Is there anything else that you've got to add?
I | | 14 | don't need argument as to which version of the facts are | | 15 | truthful right now.
You'll argue that to me when we do closing | | 16 | arguments.
But, Ms. Cline, is there anything else? | | 17 | MS. CLINE:
I just think we have a difference of | | 18 | opinion as to whether the answers are accurate as drafted.
I'm | | 19 | somewhat concerned that there's this allegation that Ms. Wang | | 20 | has committed perjury and we haven't given her a chance to | | 21 | clean up the responses and to lay a foundation as to why we | | 22 | think they're accurate.
I understand that the responses are | | 23 | what they are, but it just feels -- | | 24 | THE COURT:
I left the record open only because there | | 25 | were questions that Mr. Greim was not permitted to ask that he | |----|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | wanted to ask and not for the proponent of the witness to clean | | 2 | up the testimony.
So I think you'll have to live with the | | 3 | record as the record is.
I think I was pretty clear that we | | 4 | concluded the testimony, you concluded your examination, | | 5 | Ms. Cline, and nobody asked further questions to clean up the | | 6 | interrogatories, unless there's something else I'm missing.
Am | | 7 | I missing anything? | | 8 | (Continued on next page) | | 9 | | | 10 | | | 11 | | | 12 | | | 13 | | | 14 | | | 15 | | | 16 | | | 17 | | | 18 | | | 19 | | | | | | 20 | | | 21 | | | 22 | | | 23 | | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | | |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 1 | MS. CLINE:
May I have a moment? | | 2 | (Pause) | | 3 | MS. CLINE:
Yes, so we purposefully didn't address | | 4 | that on redirect because your Honor left it open with the | | 5 | understanding that she should retain counsel, which she's done, | | 6 | so that's why we didn't follow up. | | 7 | THE COURT:
All right.
Well, listen, then is she here | | 8 | right now? | | 9 | MS. CLINE:
She is. | | 10 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim, are you ready to examine her? | | 11 | MR. GREIM:
Your Honor, I actually don't have any | | 12 | questions for her. | | 13 | The other concern I have is that the record has been | | 14 | available to people listening to this outside — the witness may | | 15 | well have heard much more about this, and now she's had | | 16 | counsel, they may have been working with her — I don't want to | | 17 | put on a witness who has got a set of things -- I've got my | | 18 | responses here, I have nothing more to ask for that was.
It's | | 19 | the only reason we kept it open.
I have nothing more to go | | 20 | into. | | 21 | THE COURT:
Let me ask the question:
Is she going to | | 22 | take the Fifth as to any of the questions about the preparation | | 23 | of the interrogatories? | | 24 | MS. CLINE:
She's not. | | 25 | THE COURT:
Because I left it open, I'll permit her to | | | | L4MKEAS7 two of you could work together to give me a single set of the exhibits that are in evidence or that have been shown to a witness, and the exhibits where there is still a motion to strike outstanding, in order, from PX 1 all the way through and then to the DX, because right now I've got a lot of different binders in front of me and instead of having to hunt around different binders, it would be helpful to just have a single set of exhibits. You can let me know what timetable that you will deliver it in but I think before closing statements might be useful. Is that too much to ask, Ms. Cline? MS. CLINE: I think we can handle it. THE COURT: Mr. Greim? MR. GREIM: Yes, we can do that, your Honor. THE COURT: Anything else, Ms. Cline, to raise with the Court? MS. CLINE: No, your Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Greim? MR. GREIM: Do you want us to give you sort of a list of the adverse inference points, maybe questions that we had raised where we were asking for the inference? THE COURT: No, I don't think so. I think you should leave that for your closing argument. I would be troubled that there's a way in which that would give you an opportunity to make an argument that I'm not giving the plaintiff a chance to 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 L4MKEAS7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 make an argument with respect to. I think I would have to give them an opportunity not just to rebut what you're saying but to highlight points that they want to highlight. MR. GREIM: Well, your Honor, knowing us, we probably would do that, so we'll just make our points in our closing. And if you want -- because I think this is this four-part test, if you want additional on that, I suppose you'll ask us and we can equally respond. THE COURT: I think that's a simple enough question for me to do the research on. There is one legal question that's come up in my work on the case that it would be useful to get very short supplemental briefs on. The plaintiffs have raised an argument that the research agreement is void under the Virginia Private Security Services Statute. There's very little law on that specific statute. There are two, I think, related questions that it would be helpful for me to get briefs on. Number one, I would be interested in briefs with respect to the application of that statute to investigations that are done outside of the Commonwealth of Virginia. Several of the witnesses made a point of saying that the investigative work here was done outside of the State of Virginia, and if there is any case law on that, whether the statute should be interpreted to apply to conduct outside of the Commonwealth of Virginia and whether there would be any constitutional issues 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 L4MKEAS7 1 2 under the Commerce Clause with the extension of it to activity outside of the Commonwealth of Virginia, would be helpful. The second thing that's somewhat related is, I believe that there are similar statutes to the Virginia statute in other states. The interpretation by other courts of similar statutes is not going to be binding on me, but it occurs to me that the derth of case law under the Virginia statute might be filled in a bit by looking at the laws of some of the other states. So if you could look to see if there's anything useful to either of you in the law of other states and include that in the briefs, that would be helpful. I'm thinking that ten-page double-spaced briefs would be helpful, filed simultaneously. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Ms. Cline, can you remind me when we've got closing arguments in the case? 13 14 15 18 19 MS. CLINE: Friday, your Honor. THE COURT: Is it too much to ask for it to be done by Friday, next Friday, close of day, the ten-page briefs? 16 17 MS. CLINE: So you don't need them before the closings? THE COURT: I don't think so. MS. CLINE: Fine for plaintiffs. THE COURT: For defendant? MR. GREIM: We can do it, your Honor. THE COURT: All right. I don't have anything else unless, Ms. Cline, you've 20 21 22 23 24 25 |----|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | 1 | got anything? | | 2 | MS. CLINE:
Nothing from us. | | 3 | THE COURT:
Mr. Greim? | | 4 | MR. GREIM:
Nothing, your Honor. | | 5 | THE COURT:
I would say that I think the case was very | | 6 | well tried on both sides, and I appreciate your efforts to get | | 7 | it all done within this time frame and given the challenges | | 8 | with COVID. | | 9 | There was a point raised about the ability to judge | | 10 | credibility and to manage this with masks on, and the | | 11 | testimony, I think, has all come in well, and I have been able | | 12 | to make credibility judgments.
So thank you, all, for helping | | 13 | to make it work efficiently. | | 14 | MS. CLINE:
Thank you, your Honor. | | 15 | THE COURT:
Sure. | | 16 | (Adjourned to April 30, 2021 at 1:00 p.m.) | | 17 | * * * | | 18 | | | 19 | | | 20 | | | 21 | | | 22 | | | 23 | | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | | | 1 | INDEX OF EXAMINATION | |----|--------------------------------| | 2 | Examination of:
Page | | 3 | GUO WENGUI | | 4 | Cross By Mr. Greim 652 | | 5 | Redirect By Ms. Cline
. 752 | | 6 | SASHA GONG | | 7 | Direct By Mr. Greim
. 758 | | 8 | Cross By Ms. Cline 783 | | 9 | Redirect By Mr. Greim
. 800 | | 10 | PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS | | 11 | Exhibit No.
Received | | 12 | 52 and 53
. 753 | | 13 | 70A
. 754 | | 14 | PX44, 46, 47 and 50
. 792 | | 15 | PX59
. 803 | | 16 | DEFENDANT EXHIBITS | | 17 | Exhibit No.
Received | | 18 | 48
. 651 | | 19 | 51
. 667 | | 20 | DX76A
. 736 | | 21 | 35, 37, and 114
. 751 | | 22 | 123 and 124
. 802 | | 23 | | | 24 | | | 25 | | | | |